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 [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars

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east02west
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PostSubject: [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars    15th February 2016, 2:07 pm

Are we to assume that ChibiUsa as conceived then would have the same growth issues, or was that worked out within the Dark Moon, Dreams, and Stars Arc?

I'm honestly curious as to whether we're to assume that ChibiUsa's timeline has undergone a reboot of sorts whereby her journey to the past will have been a means for her to make up for those 900 years she spent in the body of a child. Perhaps she'll have an astral projected form of herself appear before her in the way that Hotaru did (I'm still curious if the Hotaru of Dreams is the same Hotaru as that of the Infinity Arc.) when the spirit of Sailor Saturn appeared before her and restored her memories of her past life.

I do wonder what the consequences of the newly born ChibiUsa (or perhaps at the age when she initially stopped growing/aging) gaining the memories of her 900 year old past self would be. Perhaps those past life experiences would be integrated within her new timeline which would allow her to awaken as a senshi earlier, and thus obtain her guard earlier as a result. However this likewise puts things in perspective within the Dreams Arc. Perhaps the maiden of Helios' vision is ChibiUsa from the now restored timeline who called out to him so as to set in order those events which allowed for her to age normally. I saw the latter theory when I was browsing the net for a scan of the manga which as far as I recall makes Helios-ChibiUsa canon. However I can't seem to find anything online that makes the case (I really seem to recall it stated in the manga.), but I digress. Nonetheless the rest of the theory is my own, and I'm curious as to what this means for the rest of the series. Were there multiple "do over" scenarios that we're unaware of? Was Usagi only born/created because the original Queen Serenity failed as Sailor Cosmos (The Sailor Wars appear to be from a time before/during Silver Millennium)?
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars    15th February 2016, 5:59 pm

@east02west wrote:
Are we to assume that ChibiUsa as conceived then would have the same growth issues, or was that worked out within the Dark Moon, Dreams, and Stars Arc?

Not very sure of the question here, but ChibiUsa after her senshi powers awaken, she started to grow like "a normal person" it was mentioned in the manga.

Even the ChibiUsa that was conceived at the end of Stars (i assumed it was still 21st century) will not have the growth issue, because, the future "changed".

@east02west wrote:
I'm honestly curious as to whether we're to assume that ChibiUsa's timeline has undergone a reboot of sorts whereby her journey to the past will have been a means for her to make up for those 900 years she spent in the body of a child. Perhaps she'll have an astral projected form of herself appear before her in the way that Hotaru did (I'm still curious if the Hotaru of Dreams is the same Hotaru as that of the Infinity Arc.) when the spirit of Sailor Saturn appeared before her and restored her memories of her past life.

Again, not very sure of your point here, the spirit stuff happened in the anime only, in the manga she just started to grow quickly (Hotaru) and then forced (if i recall correctly by her fellow senshi) to awaken as a senshi, the Hotaru we saw in the infinity arc is the same of dreams and stars arc[/quote]

@east02west wrote:
I do wonder what the consequences of the newly born ChibiUsa

I hope you are talking about the ChibiUsa that will born after the stars arc, unless you are talking about the "new born" ChibiUsa because she awaken her powers.


@east02west wrote:
I saw the latter theory when I was browsing the net for a scan of the manga which as far as I recall makes Helios-ChibiUsa canon.

They are cannon =) i know there are some people that are skeptical about this.

@east02west wrote:
Was Usagi only born/created because the original Queen Serenity failed as Sailor Cosmos (The Sailor Wars appear to be from a time before/during Silver Millennium)?

Neo queen serenity*

Queen serenity died in the silver millennium era, and Neo Queen Serenity was the one that "failed" in that future.

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east02west
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars    15th February 2016, 6:38 pm

Haine wrote:
Again, not very sure of your point here, the spirit stuff happened in the anime only, in the manga she just started to grow quickly (Hotaru) and then forced (if i recall correctly by her fellow senshi) to awaken as a senshi, the Hotaru we saw in the infinity arc is the same of dreams and stars arc

It's not exclusive to the anime.

I seem to recall Hotaru's senshi form awakening her dormant self within the Dreams arc. It's prior to her granting the Outers their ability to henshin using Crystal power. She's in the bath tub in that particular manga cell.

Haine wrote:
ChibiUsa after her senshi powers awaken, she started to grow like "a normal person" it was mentioned in the manga.

Even the ChibiUsa that was conceived at the end of Stars (i assumed it was still 21st century) will not have the growth issue, because, the future "changed".


Haine wrote:
I hope you are talking about the ChibiUsa that will born after the stars arc, unless you are talking about the "new born" ChibiUsa because she awaken her powers.

But will ChibiUsa as conceived at the end of the Stars arc know that?

Usagi, Mamoru, the senshi (and if you hold to Luna and Artemis being revived) will all know about the happenings of the Black Moon, Infinity, Dreams, and the Stars arc, but will ChibiUsa know those things following the soft reboot at the end of Stars?

They've already resolved her senshi and growth issue, and thus she should theoretically not have that issue, which leads me to believe that the ChibiUsa at the end of Stars will be different from the ChibiUsa we knew previously, or she will have her memories restored to her. It doesn't make much sense for Hotaru and her to be the best of friends in the past, to only have ChibiUsa not know who she is once she is born and begins to grow. That entails that ChibiUsa will undergo the same process as Hotaru at some point. 

What this does hint at, is that there were multiple soft reboots throughout the series each time that ChibiUsa traveled between the future and the past. Helios' vision of a mature ChibiUsa is definitely not the ChibiUsa we see venturing into the past. If anything it would appear that this vision of a mature ChibiUsa is from the one in utero within the Stars arc. Why don't we ever see that ChibiUsa returning as a senshi into the past?

Also, how did Nehelenia manage to know about the Amazon quartet, when she's a figure from Silver Millennium who had cursed the newborn Princess Serenity? Why does no one seem to see an issue with that? Theoretically speaking, the Amazon Quartet should not even exist at the time of Silver Millennium, or for that matter, shouldn't have been on Nehelenia's radar as they are exclusive to Crystal Tokyo. How could she stumble upon them?


Haine wrote:
Queen serenity died in the silver millennium era, and Neo Queen Serenity was the one that "failed" in that future.

I hold to a head canon that Sailor Cosmos is actually the original Queen Serenity given the hints we get from Sailor Animamate Tin Nyanko and Sailor Animamate Lead Crow that the Sailor Wars took place during, or at a time prior to Silver Millennium.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars    15th February 2016, 7:06 pm

@east02west wrote:
It's not exclusive to the anime.

I seem to recall Hotaru's senshi form awakening her dormant self within the Dreams arc. It's prior to her granting the Outers their ability to henshin using Crystal power. She's in the bath tub in that particular manga cell.


@east02west wrote:
But will ChibiUsa as conceived at the end of the Stars arc know that?

I don't think she will know, unless someone tells her, because she did not have a past life, she is gonna born in the future, if she dies in her present and is reborn in another "present" then she will remember what now is her past life. even with the distortion in the time (the fact that she traveled to the past) the ChibiUsa that is born after stars will not know nothing about her future self traveling to the past to save her mom in her future.

What is gonna happen probably is her parents telling her stories about a brave girl from the future going to the past to save her parents, i can see Mamoru doing that, as King endymion did with Small Lady.

@east02west wrote:
Also, how did Nehelenia manage to know about the Amazon quartet, when she's a figure from Silver Millennium who had cursed the newborn Princess Serenity? Why does no one seem to see an issue with that? Theoretically speaking, the Amazon Quartet should not even exist at the time of Silver Millennium, or for that matter, shouldn't have been on Nehelenia's radar as they are exclusive to Crystal Tokyo. How could she stumble upon them?

That would be a very interesting question and theory, i'm gonna see if someone already asked this, i'm pretty sure it was discussed.


@east02west wrote:
I hold to a head canon that Sailor Cosmos is actually the original Queen Serenity given the hints we get from Sailor Animamate Tin Nyanko and Sailor Animamate Lead Crow that the Sailor Wars took place during, or at a time prior to Silver Millennium.

That is a very interesting theory, that never crossed my mind because to me it was very clear that Cosmos is just an afraid sailor moon from a timeline, probably from one that was damaged after black moon arc incident.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars    15th February 2016, 7:27 pm

Depends on if the timeline is fixed or not. If it's fixed, that means that neo queen serenity knew of the past and sent her daughter anyway, which would mean that usagi of this timeline would eventually do the same.

Unless chaos not being in the universe altered that? No chaos=no death phantom to banish=no black moon clan (or at least their dangerous crystals). That would leave no reason for chibiusa to go back in time in the first place.

What we DO know however is Sailor Cosmos is/was Usagi in an alternative universe where she failed to save earth. So our Usagi will never become that-though if the altered timeline were true, who's to say that she couldn't stay a senshi AND neo queen? It'd be interesting if our Usagi became Cosmos while chibiusa inherited the title of Sailor Moon since Chaos was eliminated, who says the rules wouldn't have changed a bit?

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars    15th February 2016, 7:48 pm

Wouldn't that introduce a perpetual time loop?

Neo-Queen Serenity and King Endymion both appeared to be baffled at ChibiUsa not growing or developing into a senshi. 

Pluto doesn't appear to have any recollection of Usagi, Mamoru, Minako, Luna, or Artemis when they go back in time, so it would appear to have been a first for all parties involved.

It would appear that NQS likewise had the ability to send them back in time without the aid of Pluto. After all, it's not as if the Gate of Time was linear and they were guaranteed to land back in the period that they had left (Do we even have a guarantee of that?).

I think it demands that we accept that the ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars comes from a different future entirely. That causes a number of problems, in particular her relationship to Hotaru who seemed to age in the manner that ChibiUsa ages within both the Dreams and Stars arcs. I think at some point ChibiUsas memories would have to be integrated within the new timeline she's born into, or we accept that the entire timeline has been rebooted for her, with everyone else preserving memories of it.

It's a real time paradox.

Edited to add:

Why would Usagi need to become Sailor Cosmos to begin with, or for that matter, why would Sailor Cosmos even need to exist?

I have an alternative theory that Sailor Cosmos is indeed another Serenity born of the Silver Crystal in the manner that Queen Serenity conceived Princess Serenity during Silver Millennium, which would make it the case that "Kousagi" might very well be "canon", but not the Kousagi of the parallel stories we're familiar with. This would mean that ChibiUsa never inherits the Silver Crystal, but rather employs her own version of it through her Pink Crystal. Note that the stripes on Sailor Cosmos' skirt includes a pink stripe as does Usagi's eternal compact contain a pink stone. I think that ChibiUsa will go on to reign within Elysium with Helios. That would explain why she doesn't feel a connection to ChibiUsa, but Usagi does. She's not quite  reincarnation of Usagi, but rather a parallel form in much the same way that Princess Serenity was to Queen Serenity during Silver Millennium.

This somewhat supports my theory that the Golden Crystal would need to pass on to a male heir, and would only be possible through the union of Helios and ChibiUsa. Helios and Endymion/Mamoru share the same life energy. This explains why Helios was attracted to ChibiUsa's dream mirror, and not that of Usagi. 

The problem is that we never learn about the origin of the Golden Crystal or Endymion's family during Silver Millennium. Helios seems to be Priestly Endymion, which somewhat means the ChibiUsa ends up with an alternate version of her father.


Last edited by east02west on 15th February 2016, 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Additional information.)
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars    16th February 2016, 2:04 pm

@Cosmos-Hime wrote:
Depends on if the timeline is fixed or not. If it's fixed, that means that neo queen serenity knew of the past and sent her daughter anyway, which would mean that usagi of this timeline would eventually do the same.

How come NQS knew she was going to be attacked by a clan? that makes no sense, the only reason ChibiUsa traveled to the past was because her present was destroyed.

@Cosmos-Hime wrote:
Unless chaos not being in the universe altered that?

Chaos will never cease to exist, that was explained at the end to the manga, since is sort of a ying yang thing.

@Cosmos-Hime wrote:
What we DO know however is Sailor Cosmos is/was Usagi in an alternative universe where she failed to save earth. So our Usagi will never become that-though if the altered timeline were true, who's to say that she couldn't stay a senshi AND neo queen?
a bit off topic, but i had this headcanon, to me Cosmos is NQS, not a sailor moon from another time.


@Cosmos-Hime wrote:
It'd be interesting if our Usagi became Cosmos while chibiusa inherited the title of Sailor Moon

I agree with that! ^^

@east02west wrote:
Why would Usagi need to become Sailor Cosmos to begin with, or for that matter, why would Sailor Cosmos even need to exist?

I always thought the existence of cosmos was not needed, but due to the circumstances she had to exist in order for her save her past self from becoming what she is now, and i dare to think, that if by any chance the usagi that we know becomes sailor cosmos, it would be totally different senshi, outfit, powers, everything different, just because she became the real ultimate form of sailor moon, the one that saved her friends and love ones, the one that saved the earth, the one that became truly NQS.

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[Debate] ChibiUsa in utero at the end of Stars

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