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east02west
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PostSubject: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Thu 25 Feb - 21:40

Regarding the relationship of the Outers in Silver Millennium, that's been a bit of a peeve of mine (which I guess extends to all of the senshi as a whole), were they living their lives in accord with the lives they had been born into (ie. Rei as a miko etc.), or were they living their lives in accord with the one's they had lived back during Silver Millennium?

I don't quite understand the relationship between the two. Haruka and Michiru weren't lovers in Silver Millennium, but became lovers in this lifetime? How would the awakening to their previous lives have effected their relationship? After all, they were occupying the same positions they had previously when they lived during Silver Millennium, and not merely living civilian lives divorced from them.

Does their previous life override their current incarnation (ie. Usagi as Neo Queen Serenity, Hotaru 2.0 (Dreams) being restored to being Hotaru 1.0 (Infinity) via the spirit of Sailor Saturn which dwelt in her (Hotaru and Setsuna truly have the most complex of the reincarnation stories. Hotaru didn't return to the Galaxy Cauldron awaiting to be reborn at the end of the Infinity Arc, but rather was reconstituted/reformulated by Usagi as an infant.).), or does their current incarnation dictate their life?

If the senshi were to reincarnate some day, would they still be subject to their past lives in Silver Millennium as the point of initial reboot, or would their civilian lives in the 20-30th century be the point of reboot? We get conflicting information in the StarS arc in the exchange between Usagi and Seiya regarding their reincarnations. Seiya emphasizes that solely their senshi souls matter, whereas Usagi disputes that and claims that the lives and experiences they have (I guess body and soul?) are as equally important.

I'm convinced that Usagi opted for a life other than that of Crystal Tokyo.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 0:55

@east02west wrote:
Regarding the relationship of the Outers in Silver Millennium, that's been a bit of a peeve of mine (which I guess extends to all of the senshi as a whole), were they living their lives in accord with the lives they had been born into (ie. Rei as a miko etc.), or were they living their lives in accord with the one's they had lived back during Silver Millennium?

The senshi in present day had no recollection of their past lives in the beginning, so of course they're living the lives they've been born into.

@east02west wrote:
I don't quite understand the relationship between the two. Haruka and Michiru weren't lovers in Silver Millennium, but became lovers in this lifetime? How would the awakening to their previous lives have effected their relationship? After all, they were occupying the same positions they had previously when they lived during Silver Millennium, and not merely living civilian lives divorced from them.

Why is this confusing? Just because you weren't together in a past life doesn't mean you can't be together now? I know Usagi and Mamoru are together in the past, present, and future but not everyone has to repeat their lives again and again like that. The point of reincarnation is to start new lives, as stated by Queen Serenity. Even remembering the past shouldn't affect any of that. It's not like once Haruka and Michiru remembered their past lives suddenly it negates their present day feelings. And they are not occupying the same positions they did in SilMil. In SilMil they were separated really far because they each guarded the kingdom from outer threats away from each other. So they probably rarely even met, if they met at all. Them meeting in present day is what made them fall in love, as simple as that. Not sure why the past has to play into it.

@east02west wrote:
Does their previous life override their current incarnation (ie. Usagi as Neo Queen Serenity, Hotaru 2.0 (Dreams) being restored to being Hotaru 1.0 (Infinity) via the spirit of Sailor Saturn which dwelt in her (Hotaru and Setsuna truly have the most complex of the reincarnation stories. Hotaru didn't return to the Galaxy Cauldron awaiting to be reborn at the end of the Infinity Arc, but rather was reconstituted/reformulated by Usagi as an infant.).), or does their current incarnation dictate their life?

Of course the past life doesn't override their current life. Usagi is not Princess Serenity, and I've always seen them as different people leading different lives. She may choose to take up the name Serenity, but that is more out of respect for that life instead of her laying claim to that identity. We've been shown numerous times that NQS is still Usagi - she can't write kanji to save her life so she never turned into Serenity.

@east02west wrote:
If the senshi were to reincarnate some day, would they still be subject to their past lives in Silver Millennium as the point of initial reboot, or would their civilian lives in the 20-30th century be the point of reboot? We get conflicting information in the StarS arc in the exchange between Usagi and Seiya regarding their reincarnations. Seiya emphasizes that solely their senshi souls matter, whereas Usagi disputes that and claims that the lives and experiences they have (I guess body and soul?) are as equally important.

I'm convinced that Usagi opted for a life other than that of Crystal Tokyo.

The first reboot was a "direct reboot" courtesy of the Silver Crystal, bypassing the Galaxy Cauldron entirely, so when they get reincarnated again, properly this time, it will be different from this point on. They won't have ties to any of their past lives as strongly as they did in present day to the Silver Millennium.

Also, we see Crystal Tokyo at the end of the manga being built, so yes, that future is happening.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 1:11

Sailor Mercury wrote:

@east02west wrote:
If the senshi were to reincarnate some day, would they still be subject to their past lives in Silver Millennium as the point of initial reboot, or would their civilian lives in the 20-30th century be the point of reboot? We get conflicting information in the StarS arc in the exchange between Usagi and Seiya regarding their reincarnations. Seiya emphasizes that solely their senshi souls matter, whereas Usagi disputes that and claims that the lives and experiences they have (I guess body and soul?) are as equally important.

I'm convinced that Usagi opted for a life other than that of Crystal Tokyo.

The first reboot was a "direct reboot" courtesy of the Silver Crystal, bypassing the Galaxy Cauldron entirely, so when they get reincarnated again, properly this time, it will be different from this point on. They won't have ties to any of their past lives as strongly as they did in present day to the Silver Millennium.

Also, we see Crystal Tokyo at the end of the manga being built, so yes, that future is happening.


I have to wonder with the reboots...when they reboot, they normally wouldn't really have any ties to their past lives. I have to wonder though with rebooting, they get a new life, does that mean they look different then past lives? Because physically, the girls look the same from the SilMil to present day, but that may also have something to do with the "direct reboot' that Queen Serenity gave them.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 1:37

edit: wrong post but I love this idea
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 6:54

@Addelyn wrote:
I have to wonder with the reboots...when they reboot, they normally wouldn't really have any ties to their past lives. I have to wonder though with rebooting, they get a new life, does that mean they look different then past lives? Because physically, the girls look the same from the SilMil to present day, but that may also have something to do with the "direct reboot' that Queen Serenity gave them.

That's another thing - in my headcanon, a less than direct reboot wouldn't have them look like duplicates of their past selves. So it very well might be (and should be?) that they look different.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 6:56

Sailor Mercury wrote:
@Addelyn wrote:
I have to wonder with the reboots...when they reboot, they normally wouldn't really have any ties to their past lives. I have to wonder though with rebooting, they get a new life, does that mean they look different then past lives? Because physically, the girls look the same from the SilMil to present day, but that may also have something to do with the "direct reboot' that Queen Serenity gave them.

That's another thing - in my headcanon, a less than direct reboot wouldn't have them look like duplicates of their past selves. So it very well might be (and should be?) that they look different.

It makes sense but maybe there's also if the senshi chooses not to reincarnate from the cauldron then it's passed on to someone new as well.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 7:04

Yup, the Sailor Crystal would be passed on to someone else, but that person would have a different soul. (I headcanon that while the Sailor Crystal functions as someone's life energy source, it's not really their soul per se because there are numerous generations of senshi wielding it). So had Usagi chosen to stay in the cauldron at the end of Stars, it's possible her Sailor Crystal might have been passed on along with everyone else who died there. I kind of doubt with the Silver Crystal it would ever be as powerful as it was when it was wielded by her though.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 13:34

I agree with Sailor Mercury on the idea that Sailor Crystals are separate from someone's soul, to me the Sailor Crystal would be like the Fourth and Fifth chakras (if anyone's familiar with them). The fifth one represents the source of someone's inner self and power. The fourth chakra signifies the connection between body and spirit, where the full spiritual energy emnates love outwards.

Since there is concrete evidence that the senshi do reincarnate, I believe that the fourth chakra is what allows them to hold connections between their current and previous lives. This could possibly explain how Usagi could transform to her past incarnation for a limited time, as the karmic energy from her previous life affects her strongly in many ways. 

As for the star seeds themselves, I think they are located within the fifth chakra region. The senshi's powers do seem to hold some resonance with their self identity and worth. In reality, this would translate to self-confidence, but I believe for the senshi it also correlates to their storage of raw magical power.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 15:49

Sailor Mercury wrote:
Why is this confusing? Just because you weren't together in a past life doesn't mean you can't be together now? I know Usagi and Mamoru are together in the past, present, and future but not everyone has to repeat their lives again and again like that. The point of reincarnation is to start new lives, as stated by Queen Serenity. Even remembering the past shouldn't affect any of that. It's not like once Haruka and Michiru remembered their past lives suddenly it negates their present day feelings. And they are not occupying the same positions they did in SilMil. In SilMil they were separated really far because they each guarded the kingdom from outer threats away from each other. So they probably rarely even met, if they met at all. Them meeting in present day is what made them fall in love, as simple as that. Not sure why the past has to play into it.

But that's the indication we get with almost every which other reincarnation, such as that of the Shitennou, the Inner Senshi, and Hotaru. Their previous incarnations overrode their current incarnation. 

What if one of the senshi didn't want to be a senshi anymore, but preferred to return to being a civilian?

My point was in relation to Crystal Tokyo and the Outer senshi. We never see them in Crystal Tokyo which leads me to believe that they resumed their posts on their respective planets.

There is a continuity error with Sailor Pluto from the Black Moon Arc to the Infinity Arc. She remained unaffected by Queen Serenity sending Serenity, Endymion etc. into the future. However Infinity cites that Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune were sent into the present when Saturn dropped her scythe. Yet at the beginning of the Infinity arc Setsuna claims that NQS revived her and sent her into the past during her exchange with ChibiUsa in Act 31.

We don't get a backstory for the awakening of the Outer senshi, we just assume that they became active when the Witches 5 became active. However, that conflicts with the fact that Pharaoh 90 was active on Earth since Hotaru's childhood. There was already a threat from outside the solar system which should have triggered the awakening of the Outers prior to that of the Inner senshi.

I could accept that as opposed to being reborn that they were merely frozen in suspended animation like Luna and Artemis, which could theoretically justify their hostility to Usagi and the Inner senshi (ie. being less than impressed with the weakness of the Inners who are but a poor reflection of their past incarnations). However that isn't canon on the basis Pluto's death in Crystal Tokyo, and it being cited that they too were reborn along with the Inners.

Code:
Of course the past life doesn't override their current life. Usagi is not Princess Serenity, and I've always seen them as different people leading different lives. She may choose to take up the name Serenity, but that is more out of respect for that life instead of her laying claim to that identity. We've been shown numerous times that NQS is still Usagi - she can't write kanji to save her life so she never turned into Serenity.

But she did manage (along with Mamoru) to assert her ascension to the throne of the Earth.

One would think that the end of the Dark Kingdom arc with Usagi opting to live on Earth as opposed to taking up the throne on the Moon, that it was an indication that she would rather be Usagi as Sailor Moon and not Princess Serenity. The Black Moon arc retcons that, and makes her have a change of heart by establishing her reign on Earth.


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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 16:59

@east02west wrote:
But that's the indication we get with almost every which other reincarnation, such as that of the Shitennou, the Inner Senshi, and Hotaru. Their previous incarnations overrode their current incarnation. 

What if one of the senshi didn't want to be a senshi anymore, but preferred to return to being a civilian?

I don't agree - what makes you think so? The Shitennou only ended up in the same place because Beryl found and corrupted them again. The inner senshi, while they become senshi, are not their past selves - I believe SilMil Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Venus are different people, and they are certainly not the Ami, Rei, Mako, and Minako that we know.

All of the girls want to give up being a senshi at some point. That would have been unthinkable in the Silver Millennium in their past selves because they didn't even have a civilian identity back then. That already showcases how different they are. They only kept fighting because they felt, in the present day, based on their present experiences, that it is the right thing to do. I would suggest watching the live action, this actually comes up as a point of contention and Rei in particular would say again and again that she refuses to let her past life dictates her current one, and that they all can change things rather than just being stuck with what the past gave them.

With Hotaru, even more so. Her Silver Millennium destiny dictates that she is meant to be woken up only when the world needs to end. In the present day Sailor Moon changes that, allowing her to be awakened and fight alongside the others, to live a normal life even, something that completely was unheard of before and was never intended to happen. Hotaru's fate in the present day could not be more different than her past.

@east02west wrote:
My point was in relation to Crystal Tokyo and the Outer senshi. We never see them in Crystal Tokyo which leads me to believe that they resumed their posts on their respective planets.

There is a continuity error with Sailor Pluto from the Black Moon Arc to the Infinity Arc. She remained unaffected by Queen Serenity sending Serenity, Endymion etc. into the future. However Infinity cites that Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune were sent into the present when Saturn dropped her scythe. Yet at the beginning of the Infinity arc Setsuna claims that NQS revived her and sent her into the past during her exchange with ChibiUsa in Act 31.

It's reasonable to assume the Outers resume their posts, but there could be other explanations for why they are not seen. Diplomatic missions, protecting the kingdom from outside its perimeters rather than inside, or maybe they were even let go from their duties because they wanted to be with each other. I can completely see Usagi letting that happen especially once peace has reigned for as long as it we're supposed to assume in Crystal Tokyo.

I believe Pluto never died in the Silver Millennium when Saturn dropped her scythe, as she is literally outside of time. She made it all the way into Crystal Tokyo, then died when she stopped time during the Black Moon Arc. After that, NQS revived her and sent her back into the 20th century.

@east02west wrote:
We don't get a backstory for the awakening of the Outer senshi, we just assume that they became active when the Witches 5 became active. However, that conflicts with the fact that Pharaoh 90 was active on Earth since Hotaru's childhood. There was already a threat from outside the solar system which should have triggered the awakening of the Outers prior to that of the Inner senshi.

Not sure there's a good explanation for this, but perhaps back then the activity was in a low level and wasn't noticeable enough to awaken the Outers yet.

@east02west wrote:
I could accept that as opposed to being reborn that they were merely frozen in suspended animation like Luna and Artemis, which could theoretically justify their hostility to Usagi and the Inner senshi (ie. being less than impressed with the weakness of the Inners who are but a poor reflection of their past incarnations). However that isn't canon on the basis Pluto's death in Crystal Tokyo, and it being cited that they too were reborn along with the Inners.

Could they not simply be reborn with those personalities? They remembered what happened in Silver Millennium, and that influenced their attitude toward the others. Doesn't necessarily mean they're the same person as the Uranus and Neptune that were before though. Besides, in the manga, they were not as harsh. They were merely telling the Inners that this is their jurisdiction, and that their job is to keep the princess safe. They just want to take care of the threat so that the Inners (and princess) don't have to get in harm's way.

@east02west wrote:
But she did manage (along with Mamoru) to assert her ascension to the throne of the Earth.

One would think that the end of the Dark Kingdom arc with Usagi opting to live on Earth as opposed to taking up the throne on the Moon, that it was an indication that she would rather be Usagi as Sailor Moon and not Princess Serenity. The Black Moon arc retcons that, and makes her have a change of heart by establishing her reign on Earth.

Usagi does not want to live on the moon because she loves the earth, the place where she's born. I completely believe that she never wants to be a queen either, and that she might have been pushed into that because of circumstances rather than her own choice. We get the inkling that some disaster happened to the world and Usagi saved them. By that point she was seen as the messiah who saved the world, and then people wanted her to lead and protect them. That's how she ascended - not by her own choice, but rather circumstance.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 17:09

Sailor Mercury wrote:
@east02west wrote:
But that's the indication we get with almost every which other reincarnation, such as that of the Shitennou, the Inner Senshi, and Hotaru. Their previous incarnations overrode their current incarnation. 

What if one of the senshi didn't want to be a senshi anymore, but preferred to return to being a civilian?

I don't agree - what makes you think so? The Shitennou only ended up in the same place because Beryl found and corrupted them again. The inner senshi, while they become senshi, are not their past selves - I believe SilMil Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Venus are different people, and they are certainly not the Ami, Rei, Mako, and Minako that we know.


By virtue of everything that happens, the girls can't be there past selves, it's not really possible. I am a firm believer in the Nature vs Nurture theory. I believe that it is both nature and nurture that affect who we are as people.

Given this, there is a possibility that the girls were born with similar traits to their Silver Millennium counterparts - their intense desire to protect their Princess, and other basic personality traits such as Makoto's desire to protect her friends, Minako's ability to lead etc.

What makes the girls different in 20th century Tokyo is their experiences. They don't have the same experiences as their Sil Mil counterparts. Minako wants to be an idol, Ami a doctor, Rei the head priestess of her shrine, and Makoto wants to own a bakery/flower shop. They want to do these things because these are things they like. They were raised differently and are able to have likes and desires. As Mercury also pointed out, at one point or another the girls wanted to stop being senshis - something in the Sil Mil that I believe never would have crossed their mind because for their Sil Mil counterparts, their duty was everything - that was how they were raised.

So while you can find similarities between the girls past and present lives, they are effectively different people.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 17:24

But is returning to civilian life ever a possibility for them, and if so what happens if one of them decided to say that senshi responsibilities was just too much for them?

I use the manga as canon, so I'm a bit of a purist in that regard (I count Crystal as a quasi extension of the manga).

There really was nothing to unite Mamoru and Usagi other than their past lives. That's really the only reason that they were initially attracted to one another, not necessarily because they were into one another. Sure it works out, but I'm curious as to whether that had more to do with the influence of their past lives being interrupted, and them finally having the chance to live out their love anew. Usagi comits suicide anew, because she (Serenity?) lost Endymion again.

Usagi might be unique amongst the senshi, but her particular story seems to be etched in stone. If she doesn't end up with Mamoru, no ChibiUsa. She only initially ends up with Mamoru, because of their past romance being interrupted (the grand reveal of the Golden Crystal was just icing on the cake). 

As to their Silver Millennium identities, well we don't quite know much about them (to my knowledge). I'm basing my limited knowledge of their past selves on what we saw in Crystal.At most I can speak of Rei having always been the stoic and disciplined one. We don't quite see much in the way of who they were. Adding insult to injury is the fact that they all look identical to their past selves. Even Crystal confirmed that the Inner senshi came to be head over heels in love with their past lovers in that brief instant where they recovered their memories. Minako ordered the rest of the Inners not to attack them, because of their past love.  Why feel so passionately about people you don't even know in this lifetime outside of battle? I could understand if perhaps we were shown more ambiguity in so far as the Shitennou's allegiances (perhaps civilian life?), and their opting to side with Beryl in spite of that past, but it was so very poorly executed in Crystal that it wasn't quite worth mentioning it. They might as well have had each of the Inners taking out their Shitennou counterparts for the sake of saving them, as Usagi intended with Mamoru. That at most would have demonstrated that their past lives were not their default mode of engaging with the Shitennou. If memory serves, the Shitennou freely elected to side with Beryl during Silver Millennium, because they were suspicious of Moonites, not because Beryl brainwashed them.


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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 18:11

@east02west wrote:
But is returning to civilian life ever a possibility for them, and if so what happens if one of them decided to say that senshi responsibilities was just too much for them?

By Crystal Tokyo time, I believe that's possible, once peace has reigned and there would be no reason to fight anymore. Besides, Chibiusa and the Amazoness Senshi will eventually take up the mantle so the senshi can retire.

@east02west wrote:
There really was nothing to unite Mamoru and Usagi other than their past lives. That's really the only reason that they were initially attracted to one another, not necessarily because they were into one another. Sure it works out, but I'm curious as to whether that had more to do with the influence of their past lives being interrupted, and them finally having the chance to live out their love anew. Usagi comits suicide anew, because she (Serenity?) lost Endymion again.

Yeah, in the manga they got together really fast, which is why I liked how their relationship began with animosity in the anime, showing how they didn't like each other at all yet gradually fell in love on their own. It makes the relationship feels earned because Usagi admits she likes Mamoru before they both remember their past lives. They showed attraction to each other in the manga before they remembered as well, but it was happening a bit too fast for my liking. Plus I never really liked the whole suicide angle.

@east02west wrote:
As to their Silver Millennium identities, well we don't quite know much about them (to my knowledge). I'm basing my limited knowledge of their past selves on what we saw in Crystal. At most I can speak of Rei having always been the stoic and disciplined one. We don't quite see much in the way of who they were. Adding insult to injury is the fact that they all look identical to their past selves. Even Crystal confirmed that the Inner senshi came to be head over heels in love with their past lovers in that brief instant where they recovered their memories. Minako ordered the rest of the Inners not to attack them, because of their past love.  Why feel so passionately about people you don't even know in this lifetime outside of battle? I could understand if perhaps we were shown more ambiguity in so far as the Shitennou's allegiances (perhaps civilian life?), and their opting to side with Beryl in spite of that past, but it was so very poorly executed in Crystal that it wasn't quite worth mentioning it. They might as well have had each of the Inners taking out their Shitennou counterparts for the sake of saving them, as Usagi intended with Mamoru. That at most would have demonstrated that their past lives were not their default mode of engaging with the Shitennou. If memory serves, the Shitennou freely elected to side with Beryl during Silver Millennium, because they were suspicious of Moonites, not because Beryl brainwashed them.

I wouldn't use Crystal as canon. For one thing, the storyline at times is riddled with more plot holes than the manga. Although we were never shown what the senshi were like in Silver Millennium, it's virtually impossible for them to be the same exact people as their present day selves because as has been pointed out, they grew up in very different environments and have very different backgrounds. There's no way they can be the exact same people given their contrasting life experiences - this is just logic. The reason they look exactly the same and may have similar personalities is because Queen Serenity bypassed the normal reincarnation process by using the Silver Crystal.

The way their past flashbacks (especially in regards to the Shitennou) was shown was handled very poorly storyline-wise in that it makes no sense. The best I can justify it is that the senshi didn't immediately fall in love with the Shitennou again upon Venus telling them what happened before - they simply saw the Shitennou as innocents manipulated by evil, and that's why they refused to fight them and were devastated when the Shitennou were killed.

There's no evidence for whether the Shitennou followed Beryl freely or was brainwashed in the Silver Millennium in any canon as far as I remember (correct me if I'm wrong though) so either theory could be equally valid.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Past lives vs. Current incarnations   Fri 26 Feb - 20:46

Sailor Mercury wrote:
@east02west wrote:
But is returning to civilian life ever a possibility for them, and if so what happens if one of them decided to say that senshi responsibilities was just too much for them?

By Crystal Tokyo time, I believe that's possible, once peace has reigned and there would be no reason to fight anymore. Besides, Chibiusa and the Amazoness Senshi will eventually take up the mantle so the senshi can retire.

I wonder if having the Inner Senshi act as Senshi is just more a formality for them. It would be interesting to know if they acted as the royal couples security fulltime or if they were only senshi when the situations called for it.


Sailor Mercury wrote:

The way their past flashbacks (especially in regards to the Shitennou) was shown was handled very poorly storyline-wise in that it makes no sense. The best I can justify it is that the senshi didn't immediately fall in love with the Shitennou again upon Venus telling them what happened before - they simply saw the Shitennou as innocents manipulated by evil, and that's why they refused to fight them and were devastated when the Shitennou were killed.

I agree with this. If the girls did remember their love for the Shittennou in the Sil Mil, it may have affected how they reacted to them a bit, but I don't think that it made them instantly fall in love with them. For one, the girls don't know the Shittennou as no evil. I agree with Mercury that it was more of a case of them feeling bad for them, that they were innocents that were corrupted by evil and never really stood a chance.

Sailor Mercury wrote:

There's no evidence for whether the Shitennou followed Beryl freely or was brainwashed in the Silver Millennium in any canon as far as I remember (correct me if I'm wrong though) so either theory could be equally valid.

Most people head cannon them being brainwashed. I think they're meant to be to Endymion what the Inners are to Serenity so I think people find it hard to believe that the Shitennou willingly betrayed their Prince.

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