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 [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship

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east02west
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PostSubject: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Fri May 06, 2016 7:20 pm

This probably belongs in the Crystal thread, but I'd like to open this up to the continuity of the manga and the 90s anime as well.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what the nature of Hotaru and ChibiUsa's relationship really is.

For those who are familiar with Crystal, they'll note that ChibiUsa's more official meeting with Hotaru is brought about by her returning her handkerchief. On the surface this doesn't seem significant, but a closer reading reveals that Usagi and Mamoru likewise bonded over a handkerchief.

Now I know that ChibiUsa is just a little girl in appearance, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, she's been known to demonstrate more adult emotions in relation to her father and Helios. Likewise, the profuse blushing on the part of ChibiUsa gives me cause for pause.

We never quite get confirmation that ChibiUsa ends up with Helios, we're only given an implicit hint that it was their destiny to end up together.

This will probably bring out a discussion in relation to the relationships between the other senshi (Mars and Venus), but for now I'd like to focus on Hotaru and ChibiUsa.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Fri May 06, 2016 7:27 pm

I know if many fans that ship Hotaru and Chibiusa in the old anime and manga. There are as many hints about them as other hinted at couples. I haven't seen enough of Crystal yet to see their bond strengthen yet but the handkerchief is a pretty good cookie!
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Fri May 06, 2016 9:29 pm

Well, I see it in a more simple context. Chibiusa can see how lonely Hotaru is and feels that Hotaru needed someone to let in.

In fact, I see it like a similar scenerio when Usagi became friends with Ami, Rei, and Makoto. They were alone and Usagi was able to get them to open up and let her into their hearts. I see Chibiusa doing the same thing with Hotaru.

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east02west
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Fri May 06, 2016 11:00 pm

I never really thought much of their relationship (Hotaru is my favourite senshi.) until I began to watch Crystal, and began to reflect on certain passages from the manga in light of it.

These two in particular:


and this:

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 12:21 am

Honestly, I think there's enough hints in the manga, Crystal, and even the 90s anime to suggest that Hotaru and Chibiusa are more than friends. Perhaps, lovers even. In a way, their relationship defies the standards of what a friendship should be. That is, they're more "touchy feely" so that makes people wonder if they're feelings are strictly platonic. But to me, I think their relationship is beautiful as is, there isn't any word to describe it other than pure love. They're love has the capacity to change and grow into deep, unconditional love/romance/etc and I like that Naoko presented it in such a way. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 12:32 am

Ah Chibiusa X Hotaru was always a fun, cute little ship for me. But I also ship Chibiusa X Helios. 

I like to think that Chibiusa in some ways is like her mothere in that they don't love only one gender. They're open to love in any form it takes. 

The thing that's rough is that usually people need like, a kiss, to confirm romantic feelings. The same thing happened in Legend of Korra: Korra and Asami never kissed so many people "didn't [want to] see it coming". But the thing is, romance and intimacy can go beyond a kiss. With that said, I can see Chibiusa and Hotaru as definitely having a romantic relationship but whether or not it's end game... I dunno. But I do like the idea of it.

Looking at those manga scans, you'd have to be a fool to deny a romantic relationship between these two. While I get where you're coming from, Magic, with Chibiusa helping Hotaru with her loneliness like Usagi helped her friends, but the language and their gestures show they're more than friends. Usagi doesn't speak like this to her friends and walk about holding hands with them. She does this with Mamoru, as Hotaru mentioned in that scene. And then Usagi, going into a sort of "protective mother" (or older sister) mode, wanted to break that up and broke their hand holding because she knows how she is with Mamoru and wants to keep sweet little Chibiusa...well...sweet.

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east02west
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 1:12 am

Well, to be honest, it's made me question whether that was the subtext being communicated throughout the entire series. 

I've speculated that Naoko drew inspiration from Wonder Woman and the Amazons in creating Sailor Moon.

I mean sure Uranus and Neptune are the two openly gay characters, but it seems to be implicit with the others as well. It makes me wonder if Parallel Sailor Moon was intended as another hint regarding the future of the senshi and their relationships.

The only ones I can't quite see in that position are Makoto, Ami, and Setsuna.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 1:53 am

There's a lot of femslash that can be found in sailor moon. It'd be hard not to - a majority of the characters are female.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 4:40 am

I think there might be crushes-at least on hotarus end-but they're currently too young to sort things out. (Plus the death rebirth thing got in the way.) I always liked the idea they become a couple as they get older though, like in high school

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Luna Love
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 5:50 am

I always imagined their ship similar to Sakura and Li from CCS.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 2:36 pm

@Luna Love wrote:
I always imagined their ship similar to Sakura and Li from CCS.
But they *are* canon. Possibly even a CLAMP "soul couple" dealie like Touya and Yukito. 

Naoko left a lot of stuff open to interpretation for us and a couple potential suitors for (mostly) everyone.  Which is amaze. But sometimes it's nice to have confirmed stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 3:53 pm

Chibi and Hotaru are close friends, also Hotaru didn't have much friends in the beginning and was glad to find Chibi is like a (little) sister. I can't say this will turn romantic yet, more like when Chibi is older and Hotaru is well past her adolescence by then, but everything's possible in the Sailor Moon universe.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 3:54 pm

@Solipsi Rai wrote:
Chibi and Hotaru are close friends, also Hotaru didn't have much friends in the beginning and was glad to find Chibi is like a (little) sister.
What's your evidence to support Chibiusa being more of a little sister than a lover?

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 3:55 pm

@Jupiter Rose wrote:
@Solipsi Rai wrote:
Chibi and Hotaru are close friends, also Hotaru didn't have much friends in the beginning and was glad to find Chibi is like a (little) sister.
What's your evidence to support Chibiusa being more of a little sister than a lover?

I edited my post, JR and you quoted it while I was halfway there. You could read my edit and get back to me.

Chibi would exhibit strong feelings for Hotaru anyway, which indicates the path their relationship will be. Would they be deep down, lovers? I guess.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 3:59 pm

I see the edit now ^^ but I still don't see anything supporting Chibiusa being more like a sister than a lover. I see you are referencing ages. Chibiusa isn't much younger than Hotaru is. I wanna say maybe Hotaru is 13 and maybe Chibiusa is 12. There's no significant age gap. And many couples, including Usagi and Mamoru have a little bit of an age gap - it's not uncommon. And age doesn't necessarily nod to being like sisters.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 4:03 pm

@Jupiter Rose wrote:
I see the edit now ^^ but I still don't see anything supporting Chibiusa being more like a sister than a lover. I see you are referencing ages. Chibiusa isn't much younger than Hotaru is. I wanna say maybe Hotaru is 13 and maybe Chibiusa is 12. There's no significant age gap. And many couples, including Usagi and Mamoru have a little bit of an age gap - it's not uncommon. And age doesn't necessarily nod to being like sisters.

Hotaru 13 or 14 (youngest of the senshi), Chibi somewhere under 12...you're not sure about their ages neither. A grade or two apart, compared to Mamoru is a HS senior vs. Usagi at the equivalent of 8th grade in Japan. I see that...Chibi/Hotaru are close, but the debate is how close are they. I would agree with what most of the posts imply, but I say the budding of romance after being such close friends.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 4:09 pm

Well I don't mean like they're sleeping together or something. It's more like, an innocent type of romance between two kids. Just sweet and innocent full of fluff, curiosity, and purity.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Sat May 07, 2016 4:19 pm

I'm more of a fan of the open ended possibilities, things that are confirmed can be nice but when they are confirmed sometimes I don't like reading fanfiction about them because if I really liked it, I can't enjoy reading any changes to it.

But that's just me, and I can still enjoy fanart and ideas but I'll always have my ideas of what I like best from open ended plots and characterizations and stuff because it's just easier for me to except something unthought of. I'm just not a fan of it if I believe it was done right the first time with no open ends.


Li and Sakura's friendship and relationship in CCS not Tsubasa, was heavily implied and in one movie they said they loved eachother and in the manga they end up together in middle school... but while forever is a nice thought... I can still imagine that when they grow up they have that possibility of being great friends and not necessarily lovers for life.

It's just a more realistic spin on childhood romance, it doesn't always last for everyone even if they never had a bad ending but they grew apart because that's just a realistic possibility.

They are currently kids and having an innocent kind of love and that was my point. 

When I ship them, I imagine they have an innocent kind of love like what we saw in CCS.

There doesn't need to be anything over the top, or physical or even out loud to know how much they love and care for each other. They don't need a label right now at this stage.

Chibiusa is similar to Sakura in many ways personality wise, although she is a bit rough around the edges like Li.

Hotaru is like Li, more serious, wiser and gently cares and looks out for Chibiusa like Li does for Sakura. Shes is fun but quiet and reminds me of Tomoyo too.

When I ship Hotaru and Chibiusa, I ship it as an innocent childhood love because I have a hard time picturing them together in the future when Hotaru will likely have seen her born, probably changed her diapers at one point before meeting her again when she came back from her Senshi training, maybe.

And that to me makes me feel like as kids, they are currently different people living different lives.

They are innocent and caring about fun and puppy love and childish happiness but when they get older, Hotaru is near her mothers age and could have found someone else after nearly 1000 years and it's heavily hinted at that as an adult with super long hair, Chibiusa still reaches out for Helios.

So, its open ended enough it could be either of them, and in the 90s anime we even have a dream pixie who possibily may come back for Chibiusa.

It's open ended enough for me to believe any of those possibilities.

Many people love many people throughout a lifetime. 

Not everyone can have that one from the get go, even if it may feel like that when we're younger and more innocent.

I think their relationship is sweet and real. 

It's innocent though and I do not believe it will last but that doesn't mean it isn't still a precious moment for them and later a precious memory.

But being that it's open ended they could very well end up together anyway, I don't know lol. It's just fun to think about.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] ChibiUsa and Hotaru's relationship   Mon May 23, 2016 4:44 am

To be honest, there are a lot of hints of Chibiusa and Hotaru throughout the manga. I know that both are incredibly mature in a lot of ways, but both are still children. I think for now, it's just displaying a closeness that has the possibility of developing into something more.

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