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 [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?

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east02west
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PostSubject: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   12th June 2016, 7:20 pm

Pretty simple, but I think it's worth discussing given the various theories on time travel in philosophy, pop culture and other such mediums.

Are there multiple parallel universes or does ChibiUsa constantly go about resetting the past?
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   12th June 2016, 8:39 pm

The thing about Chibi-Usa resetting the past would seem to be the reason time travel is ordinarily forbidden. If that is the case, it's interesting that NQS and KE have no qualms about sending her back-and-forth for her training. And Sailor Pluto, the Guardian of Time who is expressly forbidden from allowing TTers, doesn't seem to warn against it, either. I get the feeling that everyone involved is pretty confident that their timeline won't be altered too drastically, so maybe in a sense, it's Chibi-Usa's destiny to be an active TTer. The Fourth Dimension seems to be there for a reason, and Pluto has keys for TTing if/ when it's necessary.

Maybe there are some certain lines of protocol that prevent too much from changing as long as you follow them, and so far Chibi-Usa hasn't disrupted much. 

I have a theory that I've included in my manga, but it involves introducing a non-canon element/ force to explain it. XD

I've never really been fond of the parallel universe theory of time travel. It basically undoes everything and makes it all a moot point. "Crystal Palace was attacked by Black Poison Crystals? Don't worry-- it all actually happened somewhere else!" It just seems like a cop-out to me. :/

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   12th June 2016, 9:17 pm

There was a fan comic set after Stars that I read that suggests that there are multiple timelines that exist in Sailor Moon. Here's a link to the page, its called Sailor Moon: Cosmos Arc. (Warning: spoilers)

Spoiler:
 

To add my own two cents on that point, I believe there are three (four?)  timelines that we, the fans, are aware of.

Timeline 1: I believe this is the timeline that would've occurred to form the Crystal Tokyo that was seen in the Black Moon Arc. This is the future that the Chibiusa we know came from.

Timeline 2: This timeline is the same as above, but had diverged after the events of the second arc. This is the timeline that the senshi experience within canon.

Timeline 2.5: This timeline is the one depicted in the fancomic. Reasoning stated in spoiler.

Timeline 3: This timeline is where the Parallel Sailor Moon side story lies. Its similar to the ones above but the fate of the senshi is drastically different from what is canon.

There are probably more timelines that I havent mentioned, but these are just my thoughts that were inspired from other headcanons.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   13th June 2016, 12:47 am

As Sailor Mercury said, I think it's highly involved with various timelines.

The whole ideology, I'm gonna connect it with Pluto because she's the one involved in time and space, so I'll talk about her timeline.

I have a theory. I believe Pluto's existence is much more complex for us to understand, but it can be understood. Pluto is outside time and space, meaning she's non-existence. Technically speaking, anything is possible here- literally anything can happen. The whole idea behind Pluto's alternate existence is due to the idea of timelines. Pluto is outside time and space. However, the time door is what connects her to time and space, meaning that the time door moves along with the reality. If we think about it, the original timeline was meant to be Usagi marrying Mamoru, then Crystal Tokyo comes into existence. However, the Black Moon Clan comes and alters the past, so a new timeline is created where Chibiusa travels to the past, and Sailor Moon travels to the future and saves everyone. But this means a new timeline has been made, therefore making the straight-forward timeline an alternate timeline, meaning that there are two time doors now. Pluto is still out of time and space, but we know that she eventually comes to reality, and basically what happens is that the time door she came out of is the new timeline door. So, that Pluto merges with time and dies, but a Pluto who does not merge with time and remains in non-existence is still alive- still Guarding her post in an alternate timeline. Since this timeline has been tampered with which eventually led to the creation of a new one, the time door connects to the new timeline. So technically speaking, it's as if Pluto never left her post.

I have a reason to believe that during the destruction of Silver Millennium, a new timeline was created where Pluto was forced outside time and space to summon Saturn,
meaning a new time door was created. Pluto is forced to become a part of time. This Pluto dies, but an alternate timeline Pluto still exists outside time and space where the time door connects to a still existing Silver Millennium. This Pluto is alive and well, but the time door to the existing Silver Millennium is replaced with the new timeline time door. So a Pluto outside time and space is still existing for the new timeline.

This Pluto lives on, from Silver Millenium to original Crystal Palace timeline, existing outside time and space. This Pluto also does not merge with time, so she continues to Guard her post, and basically the new timeline Pluto was sent to the past, whilst this alternate Pluto is made to become the new timeline Guardian. So in retrospect, new timeline Pluto gets to live as Setsuna in the past, whilst alternate timeline Pluto serves as the Guardian of Time Door within Setsuna's timeline since alternate timeline Pluto is still the original timeline Pluto when Setsuna comes into existence in the past.

I'm sure you're probably super confused so I suggest reading it all again whilst drawing it out to understand. But to summarize, whenever a Pluto leaves her post, she becomes a reality Pluto that exists with time, she's a Pluto entity for a specific timeline. Meanwhile, in non-existence, a Pluto remains who is not part of any timeline since she's forever in non-existence, therefore she's always just Guarding whilst different parts of her who becomes merged with time dies or whatever.

TL;DR, whenever Pluto gets out of time door she merges with time, but alternate a Pluto still exists outside time and space, so an update happens where alternate Pluto is made to become the Guardian of new timeline.


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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   13th June 2016, 3:51 am

Augh - time travel is a complicated topic.

I think Naoko has tried to paint Sailor Moon's universe with a closed loop because Chibiusa always seems to be the end result of Neo Queen Serenity and King Endymion. But, the way the story is executed, there is more than one timeline. Naoko just wants Chibiusa to be the ultimate outcome regardless of what path Usagi takes with Mamoru.

There are several timelines, though, I'd say. There's one with Sailor Moon becoming Sailor Cosmos (or at least, that's what it suggests), which is an entirely different Usagi than the one we know. There's our present timeline where the Usagi we know won't turn into the personality like Cosmos because it's just not in Usagi's nature.

Then there's the first timeline we were introduced to where the Black Moon attacked the future and everything seemed futile, then there's the new one crafted with Sailor Moon and the senshi thwarting them.

So yeah I'd say attempted closed-loop but executed poorly and now it looks open (as it rightfully should be).

My main beef is with Chibiusa. I LOVE Chibiusa as a character BUT realistically, she should not be THE only possible outcome of Usagi and Mamoru, like she's presented. Or, if anything goes wrong, Chibiusa starts to vanish (like in Stars). There is no other daughter that arises (or even son!), no other potential love interest of Usagi's that could be explored, etc. etc.

But time has been messed with since the beginning with Queen Serenity having everyone reborn in the future (roughly our present).

Idk time and space are hard concepts.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   13th June 2016, 9:13 am

Doesn't that turn Pluto into a goddess?

I know that ChibiUsa calls her the daughter of Kronos, but wouldn't that solely be a reference to the Pluto of Silver Millennium?

Apparently the Pluto of the 20th century was born to mortal parents, or did she just emerge as an adult along with Uranus and Neptune?

Does she inherit that geneology across incarnations?

To be honest, the only one's for whom we've ever really seen a decent identity crisis emerge for are Usagi and Hotaru. 

We never really get those sorts of existential questions coming from the rest of the senshi which is really unfortunate. I know that parallel Sailor Moon attempts to treat the subject, but it's not as fleshed out in so far as the relationship between their past lives as senshi and their current incarnations resuming their senshi roles.

Hotaru is the most curious of them all, because we see Guardian Saturn emerge as a sentient entity independent of the reborn (reformulated?) Hotaru. Who is the Hotaru that we see emerge in the Dreams Arc? Is she still the daughter of Doctor Tomoe, or is she Sailor Saturn given a new body?

It would have been nice to see more of Serenity/Usagi's powers over life and death portrayed that we might understand how she bypassed the Galaxy Cauldron and reclaimed Hotaru's soul and Sailor Crystal. It would have also been nice to see that the senshi don't look identical to their past selves, but alas, that's not the case. It is curious though, Hotaru didn't return to the Galaxy Cauldron for her Sailor Crystal to then implant itself on the planet Saturn and grow to maturity (or is that who Guardian Saturn is supposed to be?), but rather she returned to Earth again via the agency of Usagi. Was Usagi unaware of the Galaxy Cauldron when she did all of this?
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   13th June 2016, 1:39 pm

Personally, I think not. I have recently come to subscribe to the alternate timeline school of thought for the SM universe. What I mean is (and this is going completely off the manga here) that we have two timelines:

1. The Cyrtsal Tokyo timeline: This is the future Chibusa comes from. The events of the rest of the manga canon may or may not have happened, at least not in the same way, because Chibiusa wasn't there. The Balck Moon arc certainly wouldn't have, Inifintiy probably did, but played out differently due to Chibiusa not meeting Hotaru, Dream likely didn't happen at all, or else happened widely different, more some than Infinity, and Stars... Well, I believe Stars in this timeline led to the creation of Crystal Tokyo. But, when Chibiusa goes back after the Black Moon stuff happens...

2. The main manga timeline:... The version of Sailor Moon we all know and love comes to pass. The only thing this one has in common with the first of the existence of the Dark Kingdom arc. This timeline would lead to Cyrtsal Tokyo happening differently, and Chibiusa may be different too.

So what does this all mean? Well, some people have noted NQS seems a bit cold in Crystal Tokyo. In the second timeline, her personality may be altered, and this second timeline may also be as a result of Sailor Cosmos time travel. But this is talking about Chibiusa, not her.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   14th June 2016, 6:48 am

Not to get off topic, but this bugs me.

Wouldn't ChibiUsa have known that Pluto was revived anew in the 30th century, before she ventured back, or is Pluto not necessary for time travel?


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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   14th June 2016, 9:56 am

@east02west wrote:
Not to get off topic, but this bugs me.

Wouldn't ChibiUsa have known that Pluto was revived anew in the 30th century, before she ventured back, or is Pluto not necessary for time travel?

Hmmm...That's true. I suppose since Pluto's passing Chibiusa has managed to time travel by herself. She was the one who took everyone back into the past, and she's the only one (besides Diana) who goes back and forth between the future and past. So it's a possibility that Chibiusa simply needs the time key to pass. I mean Pluto was simply there to guard the door, keeping the keys safe and prevent time travel (it's a taboo). Also Pluto wasn't revived in 30th century per say, but rather, she was revived in the past, hence why she had an awakening as Setsuna.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   14th June 2016, 10:04 am

This is so confusing.

The Setsuna of the 20th century AD is supposed to be the one of Silver Millennium, which hasn't necessarily broken the time taboos (This gets really awkward regarding her assumed unrequited love for King Endymion. Did she begin to fall for him in the 20th century? o.O), but who is nonetheless aware of her death, hence her communicating a message through her present self to Usagi in the 20th century. o.O
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   15th June 2016, 7:38 pm

@east02west wrote:
This is so confusing.

The Setsuna of the 20th century AD is supposed to be the one of Silver Millennium, which hasn't necessarily broken the time taboos (This gets really awkward regarding her assumed unrequited love for King Endymion. Did she begin to fall for him in the 20th century? o.O), but who is nonetheless aware of her death, hence her communicating a message through her present self to Usagi in the 20th century. o.O

I find that strange, since Queen Serenity of the old Silver Millenium stationed her at the door and told her to never leave it. So if that's the case, how would this be before she broke the taboos? And how/ when does she resume post at the door? (Obviously this is one of the obstacles of the closed time theory, but I can't think of a way to explain it.)

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   16th June 2016, 10:12 am

Exactly, which is what makes all of this all the more confusing.

The only possible explanation may be that these posts are only to be assumed when the Moon Kingdom is active and thus, the 20th century Setsuna didn't quite leave because the Moon Kingdom doesn't exist (Which seems so very odd considering that it was restored following the end of the Dark Kingdom arc. Sure Usagi decided not to assume her role as Queen and Moon matriarch (Try explaining THAT to your parents...), but the castle itself came into being anew.), or their guardian angel (RE: Sergei Bulgakov) acts as a twin for them observing their role in their stead until they awaken anew.

 My proof?

1:



Act 44 ^^^

She seems to be an entirely different figure from Guardian Saturn:

2:



I know that she (1) refers to herself as Saturn's Guardian from whence both of them draw their powers from the planet, but why not appear in sprite Guardian Saturn (2) form to convey the same message? Why the difference in fuku appearance if they're the same? I take (1) to be her guardian angel twin, whereas (2) is Saturn's power (Titan Castle?) crystal manifest.


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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   16th June 2016, 10:34 pm

Quote :
The only possible explanation may be that these posts are only to be assumed when the Moon Kingdom is active and thus, the 20th century Setsuna didn't quite leave because the Moon Kingdom doesn't exist

That... actually makes a whole lot of sense.

As for the two forms of Sailor Saturn, it may be that her past "spirit" is able to communicate with her across time (from Silver Millennium era). Hotaru has already demonstrated that she has some kind of connection with the concept of time (*) through her ability to re-create the beginning of the universe, as well as summoning a prophetic vision of Chibi-Usa and Pegasus.

OR (I believe this to be more likely), it might have nothing to do with which era she's from, but the spirit of Sailor Saturn rests within Hotaru, and since at this point Hotaru has yet to be reawakened as a Sailor Senshi (although she was exhibiting some powers leading up to this point), she has an opening to communicate with her as a more-or-less separate being. Once they merge together and Hotaru's ability to transform into Sailor Saturn is granted, she will no longer communicate with her because she IS her.

Either way, I believe the appearance of Sailor Saturn in her non-upgraded form in that scene is simply because that is the base version of her; it is up to the girls themselves and Sailor Moon to provide the power-ups. If at any point they are reawakened in future re-incarnations, I'm thinking they would have to start at their base forms; therefore their spirits take on this form if/ when (as in the case with Sailor Saturn and Hotaru) they must make a spiritual appearance.

*Note: This may be due to conflating Saturn's Greek counterpart Cronus with Chronos (as many fans have speculated on the characters of Saturn and Pluto). It is a common mistake people make based on the sound of their names, but their connection has been disproven by historians since the early part of the 20th century (or even earlier, I don't recall). Chronos and Cronus were two separate beings with separate and distinct powers. It doesn't help that in Japanese BOTH names are rendered "ku-ro-no-su". HOWEVER, I feel this would be unlikely, due to the fact that Takeuchi was careful to get her mythology on Saturn straight for the rest of the entire series, so it would be strange for her to drop the ball here. Additionally, this prophetic power of Hotaru's might have nothing to do with the concept of "time" after all, at least no more so than Rei's ability to tell fortunes, and her power has nothing to do with the overall concept of time, either. For more information on the Saturn-Pluto-Cronus-Chronos dynamic, I suggest you check out Dies Gaudii's article on Genvid, Sailor Saturn and Sailor Pluto: Debunking the "Mix Up" Myth. )


I want to share with you something I just noticed while reading through my copy of the Kodansha reprints. I don't know if it's a 100% accurate translation (that's how they've built themselves up, so it had better be), but I found this in volume 4 of the manga, page 93, shortly after Chibi-Usa took Usagi's transformation brooch, and Usagi later took it back just in time to transform into Sailor Moon and defeat Rubeus.

Sailor Moon: "Chibi-Usa stole my brooch!

"What did you intend to do after you stole the 'Legendary Silver Crystal'? Where were you running to?"

Chibi-Usa: "I already know it! I can't say how many 'Legendary Silver Crystals' I've tried! But I know that I can't use any of them! 'Legendary Silver Crystals' out of the past only work in the past..."

So, now in the question of "Open vs Closed Loop" theory, it would seem we have to factor in whether or not their pasts in the ancient Silver Millennium might have been altered at some point, as well.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   17th June 2016, 5:56 am

I believe it's a closed loop.

That translation is interesting, I don't remember Chibiusa saying that, does anyone have any scans to compare the translations?

It also doesn't seem to make much sense. It's implying she went through to the past many times and tried bringing them back to the future but Chibiusa only goes back to the gates of time once after having stolen Pluto's key.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   17th June 2016, 10:39 am

@TS Sailor Cronus wrote:
I want to share with you something I just noticed while reading through my copy of the Kodansha reprints. I don't know if it's a 100% accurate translation (that's how they've built themselves up, so it had better be), but I found this in volume 4 of the manga, page 93, shortly after Chibi-Usa took Usagi's transformation brooch, and Usagi later took it back just in time to transform into Sailor Moon and defeat Rubeus. 

Sailor Moon: "Chibi-Usa stole my brooch! 

"What did you intend to do after you stole the 'Legendary Silver Crystal'? Where were you running to?"

Chibi-Usa: "I already know it! I can't say how many 'Legendary Silver Crystals' I've tried! But I know that I can't use any of them! 'Legendary Silver Crystals' out of the past only work in the past..."

So, now in the question of "Open vs Closed Loop" theory, it would seem we have to factor in whether or not their pasts in the ancient Silver Millennium might have been altered at some point, as well.



Now I'm actually quite curious if the end of the Stars manga is an implicit reboot. 


I seem to recall that in the very last panel we see Mamoru, a blonde Usagi, ChibiUsa and Diana sleeping in a rather large bed. Now, this particular image could very well be derived from the older panel depicting the same scene throughout the manga, and the distinct bedframe could have just been a stylistic choice/error, but it's also possible that what we've observed throughout the entire series is a ChibiUsa from a parallel timeline honing and developing the skills that she couldn't within her own timeline. The ChibiUsa conceived and to be born at the end of Stars may very well be a ChibiUsa who doesn't have the same issues as the ChibiUsa we were introduced to within the series. I would also assume that ChibiUsa wouldn't be born with a recollection of all of these events from the Dark Moon Arc- Stars. The ChibiUsa who may very well be the one born to Usagi and Mamoru at the end of Stars is likely the one we briefly see in the Dreams Arc who is destined to wed Helios, or that could just be another reboot of the future altered by ChibiUsa's time travelling. Now that I think about it, I wonder if ChibiUsa's time travel was for the sake of righting the continuity errors of parallel time lines that she introduced via her time travel in the Dark Moon arc.  o.O  This is definitely something to ponder considering that we don't know what becomes of the ChibiUsa we know from the DM arc onward following Stars. 

What intrigues me however is how ChibiUsa's time travel would affect all the tales told of the wonders of Sailor Moon from the past, now that ChibiUsa has inserted herself to fight alongside of Usagi and the Inner senshi of the past, or perhaps it doesn't as she is from an alternate timeline. o.O

I have to ask myself, how is it that Pluto didn't know that ChibiUsa was wandering about in time and had stolen a key from her. Shouldn't she have been able to keep tabs on her?

Maybe ChibiUsa is the Doctor?

o.O

Check this post too:

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t13157-the-effects-of-reincarnation-on-the-senshi-s-present-day-lives#354028


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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   17th June 2016, 2:56 pm

@Luna Love wrote:
That translation is interesting, I don't remember Chibiusa saying that, does anyone have any scans to compare the translations?

I just uploaded it to my DeviantArt account (Kitti606). Just look in my scraps, and you should find it easily. It's titled "How Many Silver Crystals". I just took a picture with my cell phone.

Quote :
It also doesn't seem to make much sense. It's implying she went through to the past many times and tried bringing them back to the future but Chibiusa only goes back to the gates of time once after having stolen Pluto's key.

I'm inclined to agree with this, but I figured it was only fair to bring it up. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Is the time loop of Sailor Moon a closed time loop?   19th June 2016, 9:21 am

This is worth taking into consideration and ties into this thread as well:

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t13177-debate-usagi-nqs-the-just#354294
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