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 Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*

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Lotus Crystal


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PostSubject: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 3:20 am

If you have a look on the internet on english sites about Sailor Astarte from the Sailor Moon Musicals. You'll find a lot of information. However there's quite a lot of misconceptions and I'd like to clear them up:

*NEW*

Since this article my views have actually been altered slightly! So I'm going to turn this into a changeable list, so we can all come together and figure out who Astarte is once and for all.

If it looks like I'm yelling, I'm just being loud.

1) Sailor Astarte Became Death Vulcan...

No! She became Dark Cain! Cain! That's why Michiru yells "ITS A HUMAN" when the Senshi try to work out what the identity of who's controlling Astarte is. Not to mention that they keep calling Cain-Astarte. Cain... and that Astarte's attacks include "CAIN THE DARK". Aya Hosoda is providing the voice of Death Vulcan in the musical which is why she's getting credited as "Sheba Shingetsu Astarte/Death Vulcan".

Oh this may have been a misunderstanding on my part, apparently she became Death Vulcan who was under the influence/possession of Cain. Might have been made clearer in the kaiteiban. Though that actually makes alot more sense than on what I was going on about... Particularly in the scene where it is Cain who has to be sealed away not Death Vulcan.

Now that I've rewatched the whole thing, I'm almost certain that Astarte [the goddess] took over Sheba's body, and then Cain and Astarte combined with the power of Death Vulcan together.

2) Astarte transforms with "Moon Astar---" but did not finish

No! That makes no sense in context! She did not try to transform... and she didn't fail at anything. The girls were trapped by Lilith of Darkness in a magic square. Which Uranus, Mars and Jupiter could not be trapped in. Astarte summoned demon powers (which Lilith used earlier in the musical) and freed them with an attack, SUCCESSFULLY. (According to our translation she said MITHRA MOON ASTAROTH... names of demons which makes sense) Because the magic square breaks free and then after shes freed them. She collapses and is taken over by Cain Death Vulcan. Astarte/Cain.

3) Astarte is Vulcan. Nope, Vulcan's power was inside Sheba trying to save her from Cain but failed. There are later implications that Sheba might have been killed after the musical. Sheba may have even been created by Vulcan's will...

4) "Shiva" is the right romanization.

No! Well this isn't quite /fact/ but it makes absolutely no sense for the Hindu goddess Shiva to be at all relevant in this musical. The kanji in her civilian name can be read as "shiva" or "sheba" (for firewood) however... there is a third possibility... "Shiba" which is pronounced the same way in Japanese and is a little bit of an unorthodox reading but its still legitimate (don't forget Sheba's foreign). Now Sheba fits in much much muuuuch better with the other characters. Its a name from the right area (Middle East / Eastern European) as well as the fact that the Queen of Sheba is connected to King Solomon (Astarte's attacks are called SOLOMON JIHAD AND SOLOMON VERSUS) and The Queen of Sheba is consistently linked to Lilith in mythology. Lilith of Darkness of course being the main villainess and by the end of the original musical, Astarte's partner in evil.

5) Astarte is a Vampire.

No! and for the record neither is Lilith. Astarte, Lilith, Gilles de Rais, Elizabeth, Debrinvilliers, Mandrake are all NOT vampires. Astarte is a human/goddess, similar to the Usagi/Serenity situation. Lilith is a bit odd, its not stated but she's probably a human too judging by her backstory. Definitely not an undead. Elizabeth, Gilles de Rais are undead werewolves/homunculi. Mandrake is a Mandrake. The only vampires in the original Transylvania no Mori are Le Fay and Bloody Dracul Vampir and in the kaiteiban Dracul. Though Vampir is only half... and Le Fay's a bit sketchy on being a "true vampire".

6) Astarte comes from the Planet Vulcan.

No! Vulcan and Death Vulcan come from Vulcan which is between Mercury and the Sun. Astarte comes from Astarte, the 10th planet on the other side of the sun (Nemesis was not in myu continuity at the time of the musical)


I'm actually not sure about this one anymore. I'm going to have to double check.

There are implications that Astarte may be the Soldier of Vulcan. But there is nothing conclusive on this.

7) Solomon Birth

No! Well not definite on this one. But sounds more like "Solomon Basasu" to me(Solomon Versus) rather than "Baasu" (Solomon Birth) you can just hear an extra syllable.

Summary:

There are four forms of Astarte...

Sheba Shingetsu Astarte, a student from Transylvania.
Goddess Astarte, an ancient goddess who channels through Sheba
Sailor Astarte, the Senshi form of Astarte
Cain-Astarte, a form where Cain took over Astarte's body.
Death Vulcan-Astarte, a form where Death Vulcan controlled by Cain took over Astarte's body.
Cain-Astarte, a form where Cain took ovr Astarte's body.

(Reasoning for this storyline... anyone see a connection between Astarte and a certain Hotaru Tomoe/Sailor Saturn/Miss Dream/Mistress 9... in fact many characters of the musical sync up with Dead Moon Circus characters...

Zirconia ---> Lilith of Darkness (the old woman, who turns out to be a puppet)
Gilles de Rais ---> Tiger's Eye (The Ryuuji Kasahara, butch male)
Elizabeth Bathory ---> Hawk's Eye (Purple one. Also makes "bird-strangling screams")
Mandrake ---> Fisheye (the not-so evil short one)
CereCere ---> CereCere (...)
PallaPalla ---> PallaPalla (...)
JunJun ---> JunJun (...)
VesVes ---> VesVes (mhm)
Demon Lilit & Lilim ---> Zeolite & Xenotime (the no-one cares sidekicks)
Death Vulcan ---> Queen Nehellenia (the mastermind)

Perhaps this musical was once supposed to be based on the Dead Moon Circus with a Vampire twist... after all we've got Professor Tomoe in the musical before this with Death Lamia who takes over Kaolinite's role.

/endrant


Last edited by Miki on 18th April 2012, 6:12 pm; edited 9 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 12:10 pm

As someone who has translated this musical I have some points of disagreement.

Quote :
Sailor Astarte Became Death Vulcan...

Astarte is Death Vulcan who is Dark Cain. Astarte has a split personality, the dominant personality was Astarte until Cain slowly took over. With the assistance of Lilith, Cain tricked the undead into following his bidding as the god of the undead, Death Vulcan.

Quote :
Astarte transforms with "Moon Astar---" but did not finish

I believe she is transforming, but that is immaterial. What matters is you went with something you thought you heard because it made sense. This is never how you want to translate anything. If you are unsure what a line means you always find someone who does know, because winging it leaves you open to criticisms like this one.

Mithra is not a demon as you claim. Mithra is a spiritual figure of truth and judgement in the cult of Zoroaster from ancient Iran, and what is actually said is 見つら, very informal and colloquial and you won't find that in any dictionary, so I don't fault you for misinterpretation, but that isn't important either because the main clinching point is that Astaroth and Astarte while the start the same way, vary in pronunciation at the r column syllable, with Astarte being ル and Astaroth being ロ. We clearly hear "ru" before she is cut off by the crashing noise.


Quote :
Astarte is Vulcan. Nope, Vulcan's power was inside Sheba trying to save her from Cain but failed
Again they're all the same person, though Vulcan never truly existed, prompting Usagi's line at the end of the musical: "幽霊惑星バルカン!あなたは本当にいるの?”  "Vulcan, the phantom planet, are you really out there?"

Quote :
"Shiva" is the right romanization.
I'm actually sort of with you on this one, I had her name as Shiba to start until our musical went through corrections, and I learned that there exist pamphlets from the musical with the names romanized, and her name is spelled Shiva on official merchandise, so who am I to argue.

Quote :
Astarte is a Vampire.
You are correct on this, Astarte is not a vampire, only Dracul and Le Fay are. The bad guys this time around are spirits being controlled by evil, biblical humans.

Quote :
Astarte comes from the Planet Vulcan
A couple of things I have issue with here. Traditionally Vulcan is the 10th planet outside the solar system, they just decided to make it between Mercury and the sun for this musical only. As for Astarte, traditionally Astarte is a fertility goddess, and astrologically, she is represented by the evening star. Yep you guessed it, Astarte is another word for Venus. However in this musical Astarte herself declares she represents the furthest planet in the solar system. I am not sure why she makes this distinction, it is something that still bothers me about this musical.

Quote :
Solomon Birth
Let me explain why we translated as birth, as this is a tricky one to play by ear. Some times you have cases like this, where it really sounds a certain way, i.e. "Versus." However it appears in official merch as "Birth." How can
we reconcile when our ears and our brains are at odds? Technology to the rescue! Aegisub, the premier subtitling program has a really handy slider for audio that makes it very easy to pinpoint syllables. Allow me to demonstrate:



Here the word Solomon is not in doubt, you can clearly see each small peak for each syllable, especially on the under side. The next word I can't help hear as Versus, but as you see there are only two syllables, three if you count the long a in バース. More than anything I believe this is a native English speaker problem, our ear wants to pull to words that are familiar. Versus in Japanese is much closer sounding (Versus x バーセズ) to the English equivalent, whereas the other correct case (Birth x バース) is trickier to associate.


As for your summary, I agree that the number of villains match up, but I don't carry the similarities any further than that. Especially when it comes to Gilles de Rais and Elizabeth Báthory. They only sort of touched on Elizabeth's history in the musical, but both these figures are terrifying individuals from history, both mass murderers of children. Probably the reason they didn't do a similar flashback on Gilles de Rais was because of the sadistic sexual torture that cannot be removed from his mythos. I get a very different taste in my mouth thinking about the SuperS season
villains. Besides, while I see your point about continuing after a play with S villains, I think the story of both plays are far flung from the arcs the characters are drawn from. If it were a true SuperS musical, I would have expected much more Chibiusa in the story.


Sorry to butt in on your thread! I just saw it was about something I had worked on and had to give my two cents worth!
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 1:43 pm

Wow I didn't think anyone would actually bother reading it XD

Quote :
Astarte is Death Vulcan who is Dark Cain. Astarte has a split personality, the dominant personality was Astarte until Cain slowly took over. With the assistance of Lilith, Cain tricked the undead into following his bidding as the god of the undead, Death Vulcan.

No, Death Vulcan is NOT Cain. They're separate entities as proved in "Chou Wakusei Death Vulcan no Fuuin" where Death Vulcan and Dark Cain both take on physical forms and interact. The characters discuss how Cain can have so much power when he is merely a human, it is later proven that he is using the powers of Death Vulcan but they are not the same entity. Death Vulcan comes from Vulcan, he is a lonely character who has a grudge against Serenity as he feels that she rejected him some thousand years ago. Cain is Abel's (Count Dracul's) brother. Who is a human, punished by God, the punishment being he could not die until World's End (later this would also mean Magi Saint Germain would join his side) for killing his brother. Cain created the Undead to destroy the world as quickly as possible. Death Vulcan was irrelevant to this point. Dark Cain was possessing Astarte by using Death Vulcan's and Lilith's power. And also on. Cain long ago /created/ the undead. (I'm not sure if its actually in this musical it might be the kaiteiban). But he's tricking Lilith into channeling his power into the goddess Astarte (which will give him more power). His own power is given to him by the self-proclaimed God "Death Vulcan". Cain, does not have much power by himself being a mere human. That's why Usagi and the others keep questioning if he's a "fallen angel" or a "God" or what until Michiru finally sees the truth in the Deep Aqua Mirror.

From left to right:

Death Vulcan, Dark Cain, Vulcan



Quote :
I believe she is transforming, but that is immaterial. What matters is you went with something you thought you heard because it made sense. This is never how you want to translate anything. If you are unsure what a line means you always find someone who does know, because winging it leaves you open to criticisms like this one.

I'm not really too bugged about criticism. There are going to be mistakes in anything I do XD. We could probably nitpick errors in eachother's translations till the cows come home. (For one we misunderstood Elizabeth in her first scene but are too lazy to fix it at the moment.) I don't think it makes sense for her to be transforming, because she used Lilith's chant which is used to summon power and the fact is that she was not cut off as she completed what she was trying to do. It can't be a transformation because she actually used power and successfully freed the six girls... She crashed because apparently her "time was up". Definitely was not cut off. You can see the magic square breaking.


Quote :
A couple of things I have issue with here. Traditionally Vulcan is the 10th planet outside the solar system, they just decided to make it between Mercury and the sun for this musical only. As for Astarte, traditionally Astarte is a fertility goddess, and astrologically, she is represented by the evening star. Yep you guessed it, Astarte is another word for Venus. However in this musical Astarte herself declares she represents the furthest planet in the solar system. I am not sure why she makes this distinction, it is something that still bothers me about this musical.

Actually, Vulcan can also be considered as a tenth one between Mercury and the Sun

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(hypothetical_planet)"

Quote :
I'm actually sort of with you on this one, I had her name as Shiba to start until our musical went through corrections, and I learned that there exist pamphlets from the musical with the names romanized, and her name is spelled Shiva on official merchandise, so who am I to argue.

Official merchandise gives "Siva" which is apparently the obscure spelling of an obscure Slavic goddess. I just can't see the relevance when Sheba is so connected with Lilith and Solomon. Besides its probably up to Junya Saiki what the names are, not the person writing the pamphlet. There's a few errors when it comes to pamphlet names. "Demon Lilito" "Undead Warwolf"

Quote :
Astarte is Vulcan. Nope, Vulcan's power was inside Sheba trying to save her from Cain but failed

Vulcan, /definitely/ exists. Considering they travel there in another musical. Planet Vulcan, Death Vulcan and Vulcan are three seperate things.

Planet Vulcan = a planet between Mercury and the Sun. It split itself into two halves, which took on humanlike forms named Vulcan and Death Vulcan.

Death Vulcan = the "dark" side of Planet Vulcan. Jealous of Princess Serenity and wants to get back at her, something about being ignored in the Solar System...

Vulcan = the "light" side of Planet Vulcan. She's basically running around trying to /unsuccessfully/ stop Death Vulcan.

As for the summary, I'm referring more to their personalities given in the musicals rather than their character backgrounds. Tiger's Eye and Gilles de Rais coincidentally are played by the same man. Elizabeth is the one that doesn't really sync up. But I suppose she's got the loud voice of some portrayals of Hawk's Eye in the musicals. All three of them want to be humans to some extent and they Trio and the Elizabeth and the others both have scenes where they're shocked to find out they weren't humans as well as switched sides afterwards.

As for Birth/Versus, Astaroth/Astarte. I know I'm not the only one who thinks its Versus, but this kind of thing unless you want to pay $300 or so to find out, I don't think it matters. It just comes down to opinion in the end. I'm hearing "Astaroth" in English, and we can't be sure whether the script writer put it down in English with furigana or plain katakana. Coincidentally we did have "見つら MOON ASTAR---" in our original translation. but we changed it after listening to it a billion times and realised that it made no sense, why would you yell out it in between using magic spells. (or maybe we were just hearing what we wanted to hear...) but it still stands that she completed whatever attack she was doing. From the books we read while translating this musical. My knowledge of demons is pretty lax XD, though I do remember something about Mithra sometimes being considered a demon in certain cults.

And you don't have to apologise for "butting in". Its interesting to hear other people's perspectives on something like this ^^ Perhaps we should compare ass files sometime in depth sometime



Last edited by UndergroundSources on 5th February 2012, 2:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Lolfang
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 2:30 pm

I think the problem is that you're trying to make the kaiteban and TnM consistent with each other, and that's just not the case.

I think especially in the case of Transylvania no Mori, there were many plot holes left open and questions unresolved, and Death Vulcan was the attempt to "fix" TnM by re-writing it as a kaiteban. Death Vulcan is actually in my opinion one of the most drastically different musicals when compared to the original run.
Because they are so different I don't believe it is fair to use the later re-write to define the original. The Shiva Shingetsu-Astarte in TnM is a completely different character from Astarte in the kaiteban.

So allow me to clarify, In "Transylvania no Mori" Astarte, Cain, and Death Vulcan are the same person, Astarte and Cain being split personalities, and Death Vulcan being the title Cain used to deceive the spirits he created and trick them into doing his bidding as their "god."
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 2:39 pm

See, I just don't agree on it. There's a consistent writer and director throughout the series. He probably had an idea of where it was going.

There's little difference in terms of overall plot in between the two musicals. The main differences are

* Lilith and Astarte's roles are cut short and not explained in depth...
* Elizabeth is replaced by DeBrinvilliers
* It's about half an hour shorter
* Dracul came back to life
* There's more singing for the Guardian Senshi
* The Sailor Quartet get costumes this time

That's actually about it =\

Can you show me what scene Cain makes out he's also Death Vulcan... I can't find a reference in the original, in the kaiteiban or in Chou Wakusei. I just don't really understand why Cain needs to deceive the spirits... They all have their own reason for hating humanity already.

Sorry I'm just seeing how them being the same person fits in... I'm not trying to be rude T.T
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 2:57 pm

Sure, it isn't flat-out said "I AM CAIN NOT DEATH VULCAN, MWAHAHAHA"
but it starts with the section where Gilles de Rais takes the Samael sword about two hours into the musical and Astarte's other personality takes over completely, and continues to attempt to deceive the Soldiers into believing Cain is a god to make them lose hope, until Michiru and Usagi see through the deception, reveal Cain for who he is, and the final battle begins. I still can't post images here, freshly registered and all, but here are the lines from our musical I refer to:

Dialogue: 0,2:00:19.55,2:00:21.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The phantom planet, Vulcan!
Dialogue: 0,2:00:21.70,2:00:23.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A planet closer to the sun than Mercury.
Dialogue: 0,2:00:24.35,2:00:27.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They say it's so close it's constantly engulfed in the sun's flames.
Dialogue: 0,2:00:27.27,2:00:29.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can one planet really have this much power?
Dialogue: 0,2:00:29.54,2:00:31.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It can't, compared to the enemies we've fought up until now,
Dialogue: 0,2:00:31.89,2:00:34.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's right. Somethings...
Dialogue: 0,2:00:34.57,2:00:35.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Somethings different!
Dialogue: 0,2:00:35.84,2:00:38.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's nothing else like this one.
Dialogue: 0,2:00:38.45,2:00:42.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's right, We just have to figure out their true identity!
Dialogue: 0,2:00:42.73,2:00:43.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why?
Dialogue: 0,2:00:43.54,2:00:44.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An enemy from a different dimension?
Dialogue: 0,2:00:44.66,2:00:45.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A god?
Dialogue: 0,2:00:45.21,2:00:45.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No way!
Dialogue: 0,2:00:45.86,2:00:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A dark angel?
Dialogue: 0,2:00:46.86,2:00:47.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A demon?
Dialogue: 0,2:00:47.34,2:00:48.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That sort of thing doesn't exist!
Dialogue: 0,2:00:50.97,2:00:54.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't exist, I am.

Dialogue: 0,2:15:35.36,2:15:36.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You're true identity is...
Dialogue: 0,2:15:36.93,2:15:37.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A human.
Dialogue: 0,2:15:41.57,2:15:43.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mankind's first murderer,
Dialogue: 0,2:15:43.75,2:15:44.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Cain!
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 3:08 pm

It would be really nice if they actually did the "I AM CAIN NOT DEATH VULCAN MWAHAHAHAHA"

This is what we had:

0,2:01:00.60,2:01:02.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The ghost planet, Vulcan!
Dialogue: 0,2:01:02.74,2:01:04.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's closer to the Sun than Mercury
Dialogue: 0,2:01:05.43,2:01:09.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Due to its proximity, it's said to be burned by scorching flames
Dialogue: 0,2:01:09.50,2:01:10.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can one planet have such power?
Dialogue: 0,2:01:10.68,2:01:11.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's different
Dialogue: 0,2:01:11.74,2:01:13.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To the enemies we’ve faced up to now…
Dialogue: 0,2:01:12.97,2:01:15.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That’s right, something is…
Dialogue: 0,2:01:15.55,2:01:16.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Something is different!
Dialogue: 0,2:01:17.01,2:01:19.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It has never been like this…
Dialogue: 0,2:01:19.45,2:01:20.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's right
Dialogue: 0,2:01:20.39,2:01:23.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Up until now, it hasn’t shown itself once!
Dialogue: 0,2:01:23.82,2:01:24.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why hasn't it?
Dialogue: 0,2:01:24.61,2:01:25.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s an enemy that deals with different affairs
Dialogue: 0,2:01:25.67,2:01:26.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A god?
Dialogue: 0,2:01:26.25,2:01:27.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Could it be…
Dialogue: 0,2:01:27.03,2:01:27.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A fallen angel...?
Dialogue: 0,2:01:27.87,2:01:28.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A demon?
Dialogue: 0,2:01:28.42,2:01:29.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That kind of thing can't exist!
Dialogue: 0,2:01:32.06,2:01:33.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am not.
Dialogue: 0,2:01:33.79,2:01:35.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am that I am

Maybe there's an error in ours. I'd have to have a look later on

then this:

Dialogue: 0,2:16:16.39,2:16:17.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is your true form
Dialogue: 0,2:16:17.97,2:16:18.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A human!
Dialogue: 0,2:16:22.61,2:16:25.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mankind’s first murderer... Cain!

OH! I see now! What' youre talking about! Ah, its not translation at all... Its just interpretation, you think they're saying "A planet can't have so much power... it has to be something else" while I think they're saying "I didn't know a planet could have so much power... there's something else as well"

Does that sound about right, maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. X3

but later chibimoon comes out and says

"makka na hoshi ga tsuki no paawaa kureta"

we took this to mean "that bright red star gave me the power of the moon"
and interpreted that statement as referring to planet Vulcan or the light side of Vulcan herself. Making Vulcan existent and separate from Cain... What do you think? Perhaps we misheard a word?


Last edited by UndergroundSources on 5th February 2012, 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : sorry, didnt want to triple post)
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 3:34 pm

Your translation at
Quote :
Dialogue: 0,2:01:33.79,2:01:35.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am that I am
bothers me. The line is 居るのではない。私は有るのだ!
I used the kanji for iru and aru here to better illustrate my point. I'm sure you know iru is for living things and aru is for inanimate things, and that both are the verb to be, to exist. What is not immediately apparent is the implication of a being saying they "aru." In standard Japanese it makes no sense, unless you know that in Christian texts in japanese "He who is called I Am" (god/christ) is translated watashi wa aru.

The implication in his scene, which could be better illustrated if it were drawn out in manga or anime instead of acted onstage, is that Vulcan has appeared, and is speaking to the Soldiers as if it were the embodiment of God.
The illusion of Vulcan disappears after Usagi uses moon gorgeous meditation revealing the ones who created the illusion, Cain posing as Death Vulcan and Lilith. Later Cain is revealed to be Cain, not a god.

As for Chibiusa's line, I have no recollection of that, can you give a timestamp?
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 3:43 pm

Yeah, We were told when you have "watashi wa aru" its a term used in Bible translations, specifically for when God says "I am". I don't know much about biblical terms in Japanese though so I might have been misinformed. When Sailor Moon did "Moon Gorgeous Meditation"I don't think its a 100% sure what it did, if anything. I think you might be assuming too much here.

Also Lilith is possessed by Cain not Cain posing as Lilith. That's what gets Sailor Moon so angry during FIRE. That he was controlling her.

Perhaps Cain is posing as Death Vulcan but that doesn't mean that Death Vulcan can't exist... or that Death Vulcan is in Dark Cain who is in Astarte... which actually would make ALOT of sense. I'm actually starting to err towards that now... Vulcan speaks through Cain who speaks through Astarte. What do you think of that? Then when they were Starlight Honeymoon Therapy Kissed they were both able to break free which also fits in with continuity.

Our timestamps are different to yours I think. But its the scene where she and the Quartet come out near the very end. (Did you guys cut out the Bandai opening? That might explain it) its when Chibimoon and the Quartet and announce themselves, not long before FIRE.

Try around 2:18:00 - 2:21:00

But then again when they question what Vulcan is, he's none of the things they listed. Not a God either... and perhaps the second time they question his identity. They're referring to Cain not Vulcan like the first time. Though both Death Vulcan and Cain run around playing God...

~~

Then again this is a man who made a violent Hungarian serial killer into a comic relief character... and gave us such memorable lyrics as

: "Try Me Mystery, Drive Me Mercury, Drive Me The Mercury!" and "Dry and Moist"

I also know that there were quite a bit of confusion from the Japanese audience who saw it live in the Dracul Series, particularly Transylvania no Mori... Maybe that's why Marinamoon took a massive nosedive when it came to plot complexity as those musicals are sometimes almost painfully straightforward. So I reckon just blame Junya Saiki for giving the Sailor Moon community a massive headache with all his villains with vague intentions.
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 7:17 pm

In TnM I don't believe Lilith is being controlled, I believe she and Cain are working together. Lilith acted as Cain's mouthpiece while he was still maturing as Astarte's other personality. She brought the Magical Races together under the false worship of Death Vulcan:

Dialogue: 0,0:53:20.02,0:53:23.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I see, so Death Vulcan manipulated you again?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:23.14,0:53:24.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Manipulated?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:28.27,0:53:32.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The entire Vampire race exists as Death Vulcan's vassals.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:32.66,0:53:33.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:33.41,0:53:36.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You mean you two never realized this until now?
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   5th February 2012, 7:32 pm

Whoops, don't encourage me to get off topic XD
*had a big long thing about Lilith here, basically about Usagi's scolding of Cain's treatment of Lilith during FIRE and her later purification which does not really happen to pure evil musical characters*

If you would like to compare differences in our translations for the musical, or else find mistakes or anything in our one. This thread is probably more appropriate:

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t1058-transylvania-no-mori-musical-translation-underground-sources-of-aino-minako

Don't be worried of offending anyone if you want to correct errors in ours, mistakes make everyone better learners!

/back to the subject\

Even if you don't necessarily agree that Death Vulcan/Cain in this musical are separate, you have to admit there's still quite a bit of misinformation about Astarte, even if its not 100% obvious it doesn't apply to this musical. It at least definitely applies to the other musicals in the series. Western Fans tend to skip over the original TnM as it wasnt translated until last year anyway...


Last edited by UndergroundSources on 5th February 2012, 8:46 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Being a poor moderators XD)
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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   6th February 2012, 7:21 am

Translations aside (I'll post in the other thread later) there's a huge problem with the argument you're making. Original musicals do not have the same plots as their kaiteibans (after all, "kaiteiban" means revision; they are new re-workings of the same story, with twists) Trying to justify your opinion of what's happening in the plot of an original by what happens in the plot of a revision doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You have to take TnM and TnMK as two separate stories, because there are major differences between the two musicals - Especially in reference to Dark Cain, Gilles de Rais, and their respective back stories. Just because in TnMK one thing is true does not mean that it holds for the original.

So far you've been trying to force the two musicals to have a co-existing universe and consistency within it, and that just isn't there. Similarly, what happens in Chou Wakusei Death Vulcan no Fuuin doesn't really relate to what happens in Mugen Gakuen or TnM. They're all meant to be separate stories with no consistency between them.

There's no consistency even within the Sailor Moon manga, and much less within the anime - when it comes to the musicals it's a mess. Transylvania no Mori is probably the most difficult musical to translate because you absolutely have to know Biblical Japanese, as well as a fair amount of Hebrew plus Judaic mythology. Even though there is one writer for the Vampire Arc, each musical has plot holes and problems that go unresolved. Actually I think of all the arcs, the Vampire one has the most consistency problems of all.


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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   6th February 2012, 7:06 pm

I don't know... I always felt that the Dracul Series fitted together very well. But then again i've seen each musical a dozen times each so maybe I've become oblivious to the plotholes...

Please list the differences between Transylvania no Mori and its kaiteiban, saying that generically "kaiteibans are different" doesn't really cut it for me... I mean alot of the kaiteiban's have minimal differences between them...

Oh and Elly we've found a handful of errors in our own translation since then so we're going to /eventually/ fix it up (font needs to bigger and I don't know ho to time), so any additional comments would be helpful.

I also think this thread is a little offtopic now... so please continue with non-Astarte related business onto this thread ^^

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t1386-the-dracul-series-discussion-thread#29144

Err.. have you actually seen Chou Wakusei? its quite dependent on Transylvania no Mori... just as Transylvania no Mori is a continuation of Last Dracul Jyokyoku. The Dracul Series... is a /series/ of musicals that carry on from one another. It is nothing like the differences between Mugen Gakuen and Transylvania no Mori.


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PostSubject: Re: Miki's Rant on Astarte *Spoilers*   6th February 2012, 9:09 pm

*Just learnt a BUNCH of new stuff*

now I'm seriously questioning everything I've said in this thread! I get the feeling I'm actually off my nut and prattling on about facts I've made up in my head or confused with others...

check out the other thread

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