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 Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence

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PostSubject: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   18th February 2012, 11:57 pm

I'm not sure if I'm the only one who felt this way, but I felt as though Usagi was never the Messiah and they completely wrote off who the real Messiah was. In the vision mostly depicted by Rei, the talismans go and then you eventually see Hotaru with the scythe which then attacks Rei before she wakes up. During that, Rei is calling out to her as the Messiah. I know she was represented as the Messiah of Silence, but I also felt as though she was the real Messiah. It shows her as creepy but she really was the one who saved everyone from dying when she was Sailor Saturn. Literally, Sailor Moon didn't save everyone at all. The only person she saved was Hotaru. Sailor Saturn was definitely the one who killed Pharaoh 90 and was risking her own life to do so.

Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 12:03 am

I think there were actually two Messiahs... X3 I can't remember, I'm pretty sure that there two possible Messiahs. It all depending on who took hold of the Holy Grail or something X3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 12:05 am

One was the Messiah to save the world and the other was the Messiah of Silence, which Hotaru was supposed to be. I felt as though Hotaru, as Sailor Saturn, was the actual Messiah as well as the Messiah of Silence at the same time.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 12:22 am

Oh I see... hm... that's a real thinker. I'm really not sure... Hmm... Perhaps this is suitable for the Theories and Debates forum? ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 12:45 am

Actually this would be a great debate/theories thread. Shall I move it there?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 12:49 am

That makes more sense to move it there. Please do. <3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 8:08 am

If I remember correctly in the anime when Sailor Uranus was dieing after getting her pure heart taken she was looking up at Sailor Moon. Before her eye sight became clear she saw the Messiah then it turned into Sailor Moon.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 8:19 am

I believe Sailor Saturn is the Messiah to save the world.

In the manga when Sailor Moon releases the energy of the Holy Grail inside the Mistress 9, Hotaru was awakened as Saturn. She then proceeds to destroy Pharaoh 90 and close the portal to the Tau Nebula. In the Super S arc the spirit of Saturn returns and has the Grail with her.She uses the Grail to repower and the outer senshi. Later she gives the Grail back to Sailor Moon and with the power of the Sailor crystals it becomes the Holy Chalice, and permanently Sailor Moon's.

In the anime, when Mistress 9 held the Grail, Hotaru was able to awaken from within Mistress 9 as Saturn. I seem to recall, but I might be misremembering; that the Grail is Saturn's talisman. In the anime Hotaru spoke though Mistress 9 asking that she hold the Holy Grail. At first I
believed it was a ruse my Mistress 9 to get the Grail, but after rewatching the exchange between Moon and Saturn. I believe Saturn was the one speaking in order to awaken fully and be ready to fight Pharaoh 90. She didn't lament losing the Grail because all she needed to awaken was holding the Grail.

In both media Sailor Moon is referenced as the Messiah also. I have been focusing on Saturn recently so I would have to go back and analyze her contributions.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 9:34 am

I believe, Sailor Moon is the Messiah of life, and Saturn is the Messiah of Death.

In my own thoughts you have to have both to equal each other out, both fought in the anime you don't know what was happening in that dome. In the manga power is pretty equal all around hense why a lot of people say Moon and Saturn are the most powerful.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 2:49 pm

So, you're basically saying that Sailor Moon and Sailor Saturn are a bit of a yin and yang together?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 3:04 pm

Ooooh. Wonderful topic. : O

Really like Siren's idea. During the arc, I could see both Sailor Moon and Sailor Saturn being represented indirectly by the principal of yin and yang.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 8:20 pm

Hm, I need to rewatch the end of the S anime because although I am sure of what happened, I just want to be positive about my facts. In truth, I never look at the anime as being the real thing though because the writers thwarted so much from the original intentions of the manga.

In the manga, Usagi is indeed the true Messiah that was in everyone's visions. Yes, it was Saturn who comes to seal away the darkness and sacrifices herself to do so. She tells Sailor Moon that she is the senshi to bring death and destruction but Sailor Moon brings rebirth. After Saturn seals herself away it is Usagi who ascends into Selentiy and heals the Earth. As she does so, she takes the form of the Messiah in the visions that Mamoru and Rei were experiencing. As Mamoru says, 'The Messiah, was you, Serenity?' I wish I was on my laptop to show images. But yes, I believe Saturn had nothing to do with being a Messiah, simply that she is the opposite of Usagi, one of whom brings death as Usagi brings life.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 8:24 pm

Sailor Jupiter wrote:
In the manga, Usagi is indeed the true Messiah that was in everyone's visions. Yes, it was Saturn who comes to seal away the darkness and sacrifices herself to do so. She tells Sailor Moon that she is the senshi to bring death and destruction but Sailor Moon brings rebirth. After Saturn seals herself away it is Usagi who ascends into Selentiy and heals the Earth. As she does so, she takes the form of the Messiah in the visions that Mamoru and Rei were experiencing. As Mamoru says, 'The Messiah, was you, Serenity?' I wish I was on my laptop to show images. But yes, I believe Saturn had nothing to do with being a Messiah, simply that she is the opposite of Usagi, one of whom brings death as Usagi brings life.

This is exactly how I remember it from the manga, so I think you are quite right Jupiter. ^_^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 8:28 pm

Small Lady wrote:
Sailor Jupiter wrote:
In the manga, Usagi is indeed the true Messiah that was in everyone's visions. Yes, it was Saturn who comes to seal away the darkness and sacrifices herself to do so. She tells Sailor Moon that she is the senshi to bring death and destruction but Sailor Moon brings rebirth. After Saturn seals herself away it is Usagi who ascends into Selentiy and heals the Earth. As she does so, she takes the form of the Messiah in the visions that Mamoru and Rei were experiencing. As Mamoru says, 'The Messiah, was you, Serenity?' I wish I was on my laptop to show images. But yes, I believe Saturn had nothing to do with being a Messiah, simply that she is the opposite of Usagi, one of whom brings death as Usagi brings life.

This is exactly how I remember it from the manga, so I think you are quite right Jupiter. ^_^

I have the manga beside me, which I read through while I typed this out. Razz I must always have my facts when I post in the Theories and Debates! lol. I always pull out all of my manga and plop them around me while I type and read and get engrossed in the topic. Hehe. Which is why I cannot comment on the anime - I must be watching the episode as I reply!

/epic nerd failure

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   19th February 2012, 8:58 pm

Exactly Jupiter and don't worry if I was in my own house I would be doing that same thing have them all laided out and be in the debate topic more, so we can be nerdy together.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   20th February 2012, 1:58 am

Well, I was speaking more of the anime at that point.

I just finished the manga right now and what you said I remember clearly. The manga makes it so much clearer that she is the Messiah and I can agree with it now. Now, if only the anime was clearer with a lot of other things as well... >.>'

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   20th February 2012, 2:06 am

The anime is rather notorious for having random plot holes like that. ^^;

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   20th February 2012, 1:16 pm

As for the anime portion of Sailor Moon, I actually have always believed what Siren stated earlier - Sailor Saturn is the Messiah of Death and Sailor Moon is the Messiah of Life. The reason why I actually say Sailor Moon instead of Princess Serenity is this is the one season in Sailor Moon where we do not see Sailor Moon take on the form of Princess Serenity (which she has done so for each ending of every other season besides S).

In the anime, I have always believe these two to be a form of of ying and yang, basically Sailor Saturn being the Messiah of Death and sailor Moon being the Messiah of Life (pretty much what Siren stated). Sailor Moon's powers are mainly based on healing while Sailor Saturn's powers are based on death and destruction.

When Sailor Saturn appeared to Sailor Moon to thank her, at that time, Sailor Saturn stated that Sailor Moon as her current self, would not survive without the ability to turn into Super Sailor Moon, thus the responsibility fell upon her shoulders to defeat Pharoh 90. Sailor Saturn also stated that she would pretty much destroy Pharoh 90 but in return, her life would be taken as well.

Some other reasons I have for this theory is also based off of her design. Of all the Sailor Senshi, she is the one senshi that had a different brooch that wasn't Sailor Moon or Sailor Chibimoon. She has a brooch that mimic a "Pure Heart".

As for Sailor Moon, it took her pure heart or her being the Messiah of Life to save Sailor Saturn from her own demise of her own attack. The only way to do that though, was to be able to become Super Sailor Moon once more and enter the center of Pharoh 90.

Since Sailor Moon's main power throughout the series was the ability to "heal" it would make sense that she was the Messiah of Life where as Sailor Saturn's power is death and destruction, setting her up in the anime to be the Messiah of Death.

Also, a little bit off topic, but I have to mention this because I find this so interesting in regards to the anime itself. Season S is the only season where we do not see Sailor Moon take on the form of Princess Serenity/Neo Queen Serenity (which is also very opposite from the manga because in the manga, we see Sailor Moon take on the form of Princess Serenity).

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Sailor Moon S - Visions of the Messiah and Silence   20th February 2012, 4:38 pm

@Paprika wrote:
Also, a little bit off topic, but I have to mention this because I find this so interesting in regards to the anime itself. Season S is the only season where we do not see Sailor Moon take on the form of Princess Serenity/Neo Queen Serenity (which is also very opposite from the manga because in the manga, we see Sailor Moon take on the form of Princess Serenity).

The S season, in my opinion, is one of the more thwarted-from-the-manga story lines. I have always especially been very upset by the way they (for me) tainted the beauty of Haruka and Michiru's characters. Also, they rather messed up Sailor Moon very much in her actions when in the manga, that final battle was one of her finest moments.

But that's just me getting of topic. Razz Gomen!

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