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PostSubject: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   11th June 2012, 10:25 am

I figured since we have the oh so heated topic of Sailor Cosmos on this forum, i'd add another drop of fuel to the debate fire!

Everyone seems to have an opinion on who Usagi should be with. Some say Mamoru because that's who Usagi has always loved and will love. but some people seem to only want the idea of you choosing your own destiny, despite seeing a future that's contrary, so they insist Usagi and Seiya be together. what's your opinion?

My opinion is that Usagi and Mamoru is forever. if their love can survive reincarnation, what chance does Seiya have? Usagi's only known him all of a few months, she's known Mamoru for much much longer.(though i still enjoy a good Usagi x Seiya...XD)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   11th June 2012, 4:52 pm

Mamoru, always Mamoru. However, I can see Usagi and Seiya being best friends, if she were to have stayed on Earth. I can see her as someone there if Mamoru has to go away for a while or something. I enjoyed their friendship in the anime, but I'll never ship them together. I almost always automatically look over anything fanmade (fics or art) that is UsagixSeiya.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   11th June 2012, 8:53 pm

I would never think of shipping them together, Mamoru been there for Usagi for good and bad,while Seiya only known her for a short amount of time.I've seen many pictures on the internet shipping Usagi and Seiya,but I can help feel sad looking at them. also Rini/Small Lady wont exist if Mamoru and Usagi don't get married. but first Mamoru need to stop die-ing in the series.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   11th June 2012, 9:50 pm

Definitely no Seiya, Mamoru and Usagi forever. I think that Seiya is cool and all, but he truly loves Kakyuu. And all I can think about is how IF Usagi and Seiya were together, Seiya would eventually get backlash from the Starlights and Kakyuu herself. Plus, I would feel bad for her.

At least with Mamoru, he actually fell in love with Usagi herself, rather than for someone that looks like a different princess.

Now I would LOVE for Usagi to be friends with Seiya. I think I said it on a different topic, but I've always thought that Seiya was the "big brother figure" that she always deserved.

But all and all, Usagi and Mamoru. I think they've been through so much that it would be certainly be a shame if they broke up because some random new dude. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   12th June 2012, 5:52 am

i guess maybe everybody here likes Mamoru x Usagi?^^0 maybe this wasn't a very good idea for a debate.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 11:19 am

Okay, I'll change it up a little bit. I'm for Usagi x Seyia more than I am Usagi x Mamoru. The reason why is because I feel like Seiya's personality fits with hers so much better. Mamoru's...not so much. That whole "opposites attract" thing usually is nonsense when it comes to relationships (though that's not to say it doesn't ever work out if opposites do attract). The whole "Mamoru's known her longer" thing isn't fair either. At one point in time, during the present, Usagi and Mamoru didn't know each other or even like each other (and then that magically changed lol). Everyone starts out as a stranger and then builds a relationship that takes time.

That's not to say though that I hate Usagi x Mamoru; I don't. I definitely can see that he really cares for Usagi and vice versa. I think what grabs people most about Usagi x Mamoru is the romantic factor of: their love transcends into the present. People find that most likely as the ultimate romance. And yes, that's cute and sweet and romantic. I feel like they made that happen more than destiny bringing them together (as I said, at one point they didn't even like each other). I just feel that personality wise, character wise, Seiya and Usagi are a great fit. It's character of a person that draws people into each other and something begins. Whether people like to admit it or not, Usagi did feel something for Seiya, and it wasn't just an intense friendship, otherwise she wouldn't feel so awful for spending time with Seiya. You can hang out with someone that has feelings for you but you don't have feelings for back and not feel awful for hanging out with them. I mean you may, as in you feel awful for not returning the feelings, but you don't feel like "oh no, what about so and so..." if you're currently with someone unless you feel something in return for the other person interested in you. It's only guilty if you make it guilty, which usually happens when you have feelings for someone in return. I think Naoko wanted to explore this and show that even though Usagi's destiny has already been written with Mamoru, Usagi is indeed human and therefore capable of having feelings for more than one person.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 11:52 am

Moon Kaleido Scope wrote:
The whole "Mamoru's known her longer" thing isn't fair either. At one point in time, during the present, Usagi and Mamoru didn't know each other or even like each other (and then that magically changed lol). Everyone starts out as a stranger and then builds a relationship that takes time.
words bolded by me

Oh, but they did.
I did an Episode Analysis for Mamoru x Usagi moments in the anime before episode 34, where they found out about their past lives, and there was a ton of evidence for Mamoru actually crushing on Usagi before he learned who she was (even Sailor Moon, let alone the Princess of his dreams), and when he did realize he was Tuxedo Mask, Mamoru is the kind of guy who wouldn't pursue her because it wouldn't be fair to; his life was filled with so much crap (magic, monsters, fighting, your standard super hero stuff) and it just wouldn't do to involve an innocent like Usagi before he figured it all out. ANYWAY:

Episodes 1 - 15

Episodes 16 - 27

.... and then I read the rest of your post and go "Oh. *blush*" XD What I thought you meant wasn't what you meant.

Quote :
Whether people like to admit it or not, Usagi did feel something for Seiya, and it wasn't just an intense friendship, otherwise she wouldn't feel so awful for spending time with Seiya. You can hang out with someone that has feelings for you but you don't have feelings for back and not feel awful for hanging out with them. I mean you may, as in you feel awful for not returning the feelings, but you don't feel like "oh no, what about so and so..." if you're currently with someone unless you feel something in return for the other person interested in you. It's only guilty if you make it guilty, which usually happens when you have feelings for someone in return

... so you're saying that....Scenario: you love someone so deeply your love changed your world and will shape both your futures and persons, are engaged to marry them, and they suddenly had to move away for a while. You write and write and don't receive any letters, emails or texts back, and while you feel very lonely about it, you don't doubt their feelings or intentions with any fiber of your being.

Then a guy comes along, you two have some things in common, and he asks you out on a date. You're lonely, he's fun and distracts you from your loneliness, you say yes. You get the inkling that that guy is interested in more than friendship...

You're saying that you wouldn't feel guilty unless you also liked them back? You wouldn't feel guilty or a bit ashamed of yourself for not being strong enough to weather the situation by yourself, as Usagi claimed to be over and over to both herself and her friends? Or that you wouldn't feel guilty thinking about your love, off somewhere being faithful and working hard, while you are out playing and having a great time with a boy who is obviously in to you? You're leading this poor guy on (which would make anyone with a heart feel guilty) and, "oh no, what about so-and-so?" isn't just in the vocabulary of those who believe themselves to be cheating on their significant other. :/

or, at least, that's what I think. ^^'

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 11:54 am

I like your reasoning Kaleido Scope! I actually prefer Seiya over Mamoru just because I think it's more fun to ship non canon ships.

What I really loved was you mentioning Usgai is human. I totally agree with that. People tend to love more than one person in their lifespan. Sometimes it takes you a long time to realize who you truly love. I feel like Seiya helped Usgai realize how much she loved Mamoru and that he was her one and only.

My favorite scene is when he tries to kiss her and she moves slightly to where he can only kiss her cheek. I think that's such a beautiful scene.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 12:01 pm

Yamichan16 wrote:
What I really loved was you mentioning Usgai is human. I totally agree with that. People tend to love more than one person in their lifespan. Sometimes it takes you a long time to realize who you truly love. I feel like Seiya helped Usgai realize how much she loved Mamoru and that he was her one and only.

This! yes! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 12:28 pm

Quote :
... so you're saying that....Scenario: you love someone so deeply your love changed your world and will shape both your futures and persons, are engaged to marry them, and they suddenly had to move away for a while. You write and write and don't receive any letters, emails or texts back, and while you feel very lonely about it, you don't doubt their feelings or intentions with any fiber of your being.

Then a guy comes along, you two have some things in common, and he asks you out on a date. You're lonely, he's fun and distracts you from your loneliness, you say yes. You get the inkling that that guy is interested in more than friendship...

You're saying that you wouldn't feel guilty unless you also liked them back? You wouldn't feel guilty or a bit ashamed of yourself for not being strong enough to weather the situation by yourself, as Usagi claimed to be over and over to both herself and her friends? Or that you wouldn't feel guilty thinking about your love, off somewhere being faithful and working hard, while you are out playing and having a great time with a boy who is obviously in to you? You're leading this poor guy on (which would make anyone with a heart feel guilty) and, "oh no, what about so-and-so?" isn't just in the vocabulary of those who believe themselves to be cheating on their significant other. :/

I'm saying you're going to feel guilty for an entirely different reason, which would be: leading the poor guy on when you know they like you (which is another thing in itself with Usagi because she knew Seiya liked her, but then in the final episode she was like completely oblivious to it). I'm not really sure you'd feel like you're cheating or anything unless you felt something for them back (which Usagi obviously did). I think that's what causes problems sometimes in relationships in the first place; one half sees it as cheating while the other feels it's innocent because they don't feel anything back (though it's not always innocent) for the other person that has a crush on them. It gets especially difficult I'm sure, when you want to remain friends with the person and they just have such strong feelings... Usagi desperately wanted to remain friends with Seiya (and the Starlights) regardless of what Seiya felt or what her senshi thought of the Starlights. But I think what helped fuel her guilt was that she felt something for Seiya. If she didn't, Usagi would've been her typical goofy self (the best of her ability since Mamoru's absence made her depressed and lonely) and completely oblivious to Seiya's feelings and guilt free (like in the final episode). It's a bit complicated if you get down to it. Because what could she do? It tore both Usagi and Seiya up when they couldn't talk for awhile, couldn't see each other, couldn't do anything because the Starlights and Usagi's senshi wouldn't let them. Perhaps it would've gotten easier to deal with had they kept going like that, but relationships of any kind are a rather big thing for Usagi and so if anything goes wrong at all, she's going to take it hard.

Does that make sense? ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 3:21 pm

wow this turned into a debate while i was at work...XD thanks for shaking it up Kaleido! and intresting reasons too on both sides...*nod nod*

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 4:45 pm

Haha you're welcome! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st July 2012, 11:22 pm

I could argue that you are basing this all too much on the anime, but then again i guess this debate only exists because of the anime. Maybe we should specify that? Cause if we talk about manga Usagi x Mamoru's relationship...its a lot different than the anime's. Its a lot more clear that they are crushing on each other before they find out each other identities as past life lovers. But i guess you guys are mainly referring to the anime in this debate. o.o

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 12:46 am

That's what I took it as really... XD since there was no specification and that's more where the two demonstrate interest. Otherwise, yeah, would this debate even exist? lol

It's still all in good fun. Smile I still love Usagi x Mamoru (and respect those that are hardcore Usagi x Mamoru). I also love Usagi x Seiya. Where's the fun if you can't mix it up and try something out of the box? Razz

And Sailor Moon just seems to be so different in any way you spin it; manga, Japanese anime, English anime...they're all basically their own separate stories.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 7:32 am

changed the thread title so it could be a lil clearer...since you guys are right, there's no debate when it comes to the manga! it's all in the anime. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 8:05 am

I would feel bad if Usagi ends up with seiya. mamoru died so many times for Usagi, then suddenly she dumps mamoru for a guy she just met. There would be fireworks everywhere :lolz: .

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 9:10 am

@bunbun wrote:
I would feel bad if Usagi ends up with seiya. mamoru died so many times for Usagi, then suddenly she dumps mamoru for a guy she just met. There would be fireworks everywhere .

Same! Not only that, I truly believe they BOTH would be filling a void left by previous lovers. Usagi in a lot of ways is like Kakyuu, and Seiya is basically Mamoru with a ponytail. xD

Btw, I don't think that the manga should be discounted in the debate because it's pretty much the same situation. The anime is only different because Usagi and Seiya's relationship was the highlight of the Stars season.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 9:13 am

but the whole "i like you odango" is a lot more pronounced in the anime...and it seems most people's favorite manga couple is usagi and mamoru...XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 9:32 am

I feel like the stars arc was very short and not expounded upon like in the anime. I did prefer chibi chibis role in the manga better than in the anime. You really have no idea about what happened to the starlights either in the manga. They kind of just dissApear! I feel Seiya and Usagi's relationship was kind of bland in the manga. I really preferred it in the anime better. I really like Seiya, but I wouldnt pair him with Usagi because let's face it she and Mamoru are meant to be. I mean you can't compete with a lover from a past life paradox.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 10:59 am

You have to remember, Usagi is human. Any new other half is "filling a void" for an ex lover for awhile. It's never quite the same, because it's a new person, new situation, new relationship. Eventually, like any other couple, Usagi would be past it, had she decided to date Seiya and no longer Mamoru.

And yeah, certain lovers do things for their other half, but if the feeling isn't there anymore, you can't stick with them just because they have done extraordinary things for you. That's like basically saying "well, I owe you, so..." because they did those things for you.

Also, just because they were lovers in their past lives does not mean they're destined for each other. I know Naoko wanted it that way and that they are destined for each other because their loved transcended into the present (and it's also canon), but we're approaching Usagi dating from a different angle, otherwise we wouldn't be here Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 12:43 pm

Moon Kaleido Scope wrote:

And yeah, certain lovers do things for their other half, but if the feeling isn't there anymore, you can't stick with them just because they have done extraordinary things for you. That's like basically saying "well, I owe you, so..." because they did those things for you.

Totally agree! I actually think that this saying could be the same for Usagi's relationship with Seiya, too. I mean no joke he was an amazing friend to her. That being said, she doesn't owe him her heart just because he was nice to her because he happened to show up to Earth right when Mamoru left. It's interesting to look at it in that way.

And I don't know, I mean, I really like Usagi and Mamoru more in the anime, since they're flawed and more humanistic to me. The manga is an AMAZING telling of their story of course, but I think they are too perfect in it. Not a lot of people agree with that though. xD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 12:47 pm

Nah, she doesn't owe Seiya. Razz Feelings for Seiya, however great they were, grew inside Usagi all by themselves. No one can deny that. XD

Hearts, feelings, emotions, relationships, blah blah blah, are just so complicated. XD you can always look at them from so many different angles.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 12:49 pm

I just want to say I love you guys for keeping this so civil <3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 12:57 pm

I love you too NQS! Man it is SUCH a breath of fresh air to just chat rather than the hate I get on Tumblr. xD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 12:58 pm

Neo Queen Serenity wrote:
I just want to say I love you guys for keeping this so civil <3

If this were somewhere else *coughTUMBLRcough* it'd probably have degenerated into petty name calling, cheap shots, and general nastiness by now. I wish I was joking.

That's why I love the GC, everybody is so civil and nice about discussions!

ON TOPIC: I'm not really going to go in-depth here but I'm definitely in support of MamoxUsa. I mean, they get MARRIED! But I think that Seiya was a wonderful friend to her and Usagi will treasure that friendship forever. If it weren't for Seiya I don't think Usagi would have coped with Mamoru's disappearance as well as she did!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 1:03 pm

i'm also glad this is very civil..i just wanted to enjoy reading people logically explaining their positions and giving legit reasons as to why such and such man is better for usagi and such.^^ this IS a debate, not an argument.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 1:10 pm

@Sailor Cosmos wrote:
If this were somewhere else *coughTUMBLRcough* it'd probably have degenerated into petty name calling, cheap shots, and general nastiness by now. I wish I was joking.

lol same.

@Sailor Cosmos wrote:
That's why I love the GC, everybody is so civil and nice about discussions!

This ^^^ for sure. Very Happy that's why I love this forum. It's unlike any other forum I've been on. People are very nice here. I love it. I don't think I've encountered anybody seriously stingy or anything. Only stubborn, but hey, I am too Wink

@Sailor Cosmos wrote:
ON TOPIC: I'm not really going to go in-depth here but I'm definitely in support of MamoxUsa. I mean, they get MARRIED! But I think that Seiya was a wonderful friend to her and Usagi will treasure that friendship forever. If it weren't for Seiya I don't think Usagi would have coped with Mamoru's disappearance as well as she did!

I will agree with this point; I really feel that Seiya was a great rock for Usagi. Yeah, feelings grew for each other (with Seiya's more intense than Usagi's), but their friendship was adorable and sweet and it helped keep her mind off of the pain she was going through without Mamoru, which she really needed. If it wasn't for Seiya being there to mix things up a little, I feel Usagi would've been much less...lively, silly, etc.

But I still stand by, if "fate, be changed" (Brave, anyone?), Usagi and Seiya would be a great couple because they just fit together so well. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 3:44 pm

I believe Mamoru and Usagi are forever. Even if they weren't lovers in the past they still met and their paths crossed throughout thier lives. Not just as teens, but as adults.

I think the concept of Usagi and Seiya is interesting, I'd have liked to see where it went. But, Usagi never seemed to realize his feelings for her.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd July 2012, 5:47 pm

it has been implied that she did realize his feelings, she just pretended she didn't to avoid hurting him

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   5th July 2012, 9:03 pm

Thank you everyone for keeping this so polite! Very Happy I love the notion of Usagi x Seiya but my OTP lies with Usagi x Mamoru. So it is truly refreshing to see others having a civilized conversation with each other and respecting each other. I love you all dearly.

I had actually written a few articles on this topic a while ago. ^^

Usagi and Mamoru: A Love of Forced Obligation?
This deals with the notion that Usagi and Mamoru only ended up because of their memories from the past, and sets out to dispute that.

Usagi and Seiya: A Kindred Friendship
Why they are so suited for one another.

Complexities: Seiya's Humanity, Usagi's Choice
Discusses the bond between Usagi and Seiya, and Usagi's choice to be with Mamoru instead of Seiya.

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