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 Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 8:08 pm

@Crystalsetsuna wrote:

that and it's fun seeing Chibiusa in a starlight-esqe fuku...XD

here's my idea for it. since she would be still sailor chibi moon i mixed the outfits



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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 8:19 pm

I meant internal anatomy lol

And Sailor Swifty, I love your effing Chibi Moon doll. She's gorgeous!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 8:25 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
I meant internal anatomy lol

And Sailor Swifty, I love your effing Chibi Moon doll. She's gorgeous!

thanks,

that make your own sailor solider game is fun

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 8:43 pm

Glad you like it. There's something coming up very soon that I'm hosting that will utilize the doll maker. Keep your eyes peeled Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:06 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Glad you like it. There's something coming up very soon that I'm hosting that will utilize the doll maker. Keep your eyes peeled Wink

oh? so your the one that made the doll game?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:12 pm

No, but I will be hosting something on GC that involves the doll maker soon Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:13 pm

Ohh that's sounds interesting Smile How did y'all like the pic I posted?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:15 pm

I. love. it. Tsuki. Like for real, it was really cute. I expected nothing less ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:21 pm

It's one of my very favorites^^ Have you heard of Mei Kurumi? She has awesome SeiUsa art but I only wish she'd make more Female-Seiya x Usagi pics... But here's one!


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:26 pm

Love it :O it's really pretty and cute! Very Happy I love Usagi and Seiya lol they're cute together.

But no, I had not heard of her :/

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:28 pm

love that photo! maybe this'll be fuel for the Seiya/Usa shippers.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:35 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
No, but I will be hosting something on GC that involves the doll maker soon Smile

oh.. XD oaky!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th September 2012, 9:39 pm

Tuxie - OMG You haven't ?! This is one of my favorite pics from her! *Tsuki rushes to get more pics* Okay so I really love this one even though it's Seiya in her disguise form



Mei drew this one for Shiho Niiyama, it's so sad she died so young...



Crystal - Haha I think it is^^! I wish we had more artists who drew them together

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th September 2012, 12:35 pm

@Louchan wrote:
No, I think you misunderstand... we, the general audience, will of course not believe that Mamoru has abandoned Usagi. And the inner senshi would of course not think that either, although they were completely unaware that Usagi hadn't gotten any replies from him. But that's because we and they know Mamoru. We know what kind of person he is and that he wouldn't do that. Seiya, however, did not. All she knew about Mamoru was that he was some guy who had left his girlfriend behind to go studying abroad and was now neither talking or writing to her. What I'm saying is that I believe that pretty much anyone who is in Seiya's situation would think what she did, which is that Mamoru must have abandoned Usagi. I know I would have.

As I said-Seiya believed about Mamoru what suited him. There were different options, but he chose to judge him, without, as ypu said, knowing him.

When inner senshi learnt about Mamoru silence, they immediately know something bad must have happened to him.

@Louchan wrote:
Which point do you mean? And why would this paint her in a bad light?
I meant this episode with baseball-IIRC 187.

And it would paint her in bad light cause she would be hitting on Usagi under the pretense of friendship.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th September 2012, 1:00 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Louchan wrote:
No, I think you misunderstand... we, the general audience, will of course not believe that Mamoru has abandoned Usagi. And the inner senshi would of course not think that either, although they were completely unaware that Usagi hadn't gotten any replies from him. But that's because we and they know Mamoru. We know what kind of person he is and that he wouldn't do that. Seiya, however, did not. All she knew about Mamoru was that he was some guy who had left his girlfriend behind to go studying abroad and was now neither talking or writing to her. What I'm saying is that I believe that pretty much anyone who is in Seiya's situation would think what she did, which is that Mamoru must have abandoned Usagi. I know I would have.

As I said-Seiya believed about Mamoru what suited him. There were different options, but he chose to judge him, without, as ypu said, knowing him.

My dear, that is 100% of what the world does; you judge. You judge even if you don't want to or claim you don't. We just do. That's how people are. You cannot go without judging and anyone who says they do is lying.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
When inner senshi learnt about Mamoru silence, they immediately know something bad must have happened to him.

Which wasn't even until near the end, when Usagi told Rei about it. Did they know beforehand? No. Why? Because Usagi didn't say anything. She kept it to herself. She was in her head a lot when alone or spacing out with her friends wondering what was up with Mamoru. And when someone was like "what's up, Usagi-chan?" it was basically "oh...nothing Very Happy" and then casually forgotten as she derailed them from the topic. So. Der.

That's not fair though to use considering Seiya wasn't one of Usagi's senshi. So Seiya had no idea. You just go on normal assumption/judgement from what you see and what you can piece together. Usagi's senshi knew, sure, because they know Mamoru. Seiya did not.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Louchan wrote:
Which point do you mean? And why would this paint her in a bad light?
I meant this episode with baseball-IIRC 187.

And it would paint her in bad light cause she would be hitting on Usagi under the pretense of friendship.

This just gets frustrating because I can't help but wonder if you know the complexities of these kinds of relationships, my dear. They're not all that easy and yeah you can just be like "oh yeah, yeah we can just be friends", but you're totally lying because you still harbor some kind of feelings for the person you're interested in. Feelings do not just instantly disappear on command. :/ That would make life way too easy. Because there are plenty of people right now, right this very moment, in real life, that wish they weren't interested in someone or weren't in love with someone but they are. Because it can't be helped. So that's not being "painted in a bad light", it's just, life. That's how it works. Nothing is as simple as we wish it were.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th September 2012, 1:36 pm

i actually don't see why it's bad someone would be flirting under the pretense of friendship. a lot of people do that right?i mean, you gotta start somewhere. if you just start hitting on someone out of the blue, you look like some sex crazed psycho. so what do you do to prevent that? you become friends with the person and let them get to know you a bit, so it isn't all weird.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th September 2012, 1:56 pm

@Crystalsetsuna wrote:
i actually don't see why it's bad someone would be flirting under the pretense of friendship. a lot of people do that right?i mean, you gotta start somewhere. if you just start hitting on someone out of the blue, you look like some sex crazed psycho. so what do you do to prevent that? you become friends with the person and let them get to know you a bit, so it isn't all weird.

Exactly. This too.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th September 2012, 3:32 pm

@Crystalsetsuna wrote:
i actually don't see why it's bad someone would be flirting under the pretense of friendship. a lot of people do that right?i mean, you gotta start somewhere. if you just start hitting on someone out of the blue, you look like some sex crazed psycho. so what do you do to prevent that? you become friends with the person and let them get to know you a bit, so it isn't all weird.

Ditto. This. And yeah Seiya had no idea about Mamoru and she was surprised to hear that he was dead in the episode 196

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   29th September 2012, 10:31 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

My dear, that is 100% of what the world does; you judge. You judge even if you don't want to or claim you don't. We just do. That's how people are. You cannot go without judging and anyone who says they do is lying.

But you still can judge somebody negatively, positively or mixed. If you judge somebody very negatively and you can suspest yourself of ullterior motives for such judgement, you should really reflect on your judgement.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   29th September 2012, 11:49 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Which wasn't even until near the end, when Usagi told Rei about it. Did they know beforehand? No. Why? Because Usagi didn't say anything. She kept it to herself. She was in her head a lot when alone or spacing out with her friends wondering what was up with Mamoru. And when someone was like "what's up, Usagi-chan?" it was basically "oh...nothing Very Happy" and then casually forgotten as she derailed them from the topic. So. Der.

That's not fair though to use considering Seiya wasn't one of Usagi's senshi. So Seiya had no idea. You just go on normal assumption/judgement from what you see and what you can piece together. Usagi's senshi knew, sure, because they know Mamoru. Seiya did not.

Yes, Seiya did not know Mamoru and still he believed in the worst option possible.

Usagi didn't say anything, because she didn't want anybody to think negatively of Mamoru, poor girl... And in previous seasons she talked about him at the whole time.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   29th September 2012, 1:03 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

This just gets frustrating because I can't help but wonder if you know the complexities of these kinds of relationships, my dear. They're not all that easy and yeah you can just be like "oh yeah, yeah we can just be friends", but you're totally lying because you still harbor some kind of feelings for the person you're interested in. Feelings do not just instantly disappear on command. :/ That would make life way too easy. Because there are plenty of people right now, right this very moment, in real life, that wish they weren't interested in someone or weren't in love with someone but they are. Because it can't be helped. So that's not being "painted in a bad light", it's just, life. That's how it works. Nothing is as simple as we wish it were.

Yes, sometimes it can't be helped.

But in Seiya's case we don't know whether it could be helped, because he doesn't try to get over it, not caring about possible consequences. He doesn't try to reflect on his emotions or fight them.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   29th September 2012, 1:54 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

I always wonder why everyone when they ship Seiya and Usagi look at Seiya as a man when, well, she's not a man. Even moreso in the manga, from what I know of, Seiya only dresses as a man, she still has a female body. So...

In the manga yes.

But in anime Starlights assume on Earth male forms to search for their princess. So Seiya is a male form of Sailor Starfighter, assumed temporarily on Earth as part of their mission. So that's why viewers look at Seiya as man.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   29th September 2012, 2:09 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

Also, Seiya respects Usagi. And she especially respects her relationship with Mamoru.

If she respected her relationship with Mamoru, this plotline would after her finding about it.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Once she found out the truth, she was like "ah. Okay. This could never be with her and I, because she has him and is more than happy to be with him. My love for her will always be unrequited. Which, is okay because she's happy. And I'll be happy with it as long as he never leaves her side again." or, did you forget that happened basically at the end of the series?

At the end of the series I remember tactless Seiya, ignorant Usagi and ultraunderstanding Mamoru.

And I see Seiya's thought process rather like: " I made an ass of myself, so it would be better to stop pushing"

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
As an audience watching the show, we obviously know what happened. But Seiya, Usagi, the other senshi, had zero idea as to what happened with Mamoru.

But Usagi and other senshi didn't believe the worst in Mamoru.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   29th September 2012, 3:52 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
But you still can judge somebody negatively, positively or mixed. If you judge somebody very negatively and you can suspest yourself of ullterior motives for such judgement, you should really reflect on your judgement.
I still believe Seiya's conclusion was the most natural to have, and I know I for one would have thought the exact same thing had I been in her shoes.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Yes, sometimes it can't be helped.

But
in Seiya's case we don't know whether it could be helped, because he
doesn't try to get over it, not caring about possible consequences. He
doesn't try to reflect on his emotions or fight them.
Yes, she did. She even at one point, after shielding Usagi from an attack with her own body, which caused even more drama between the senshi and the starlights, promised the outer senshi that she wouldn't go anywhere near her again. But in the end, she couldn't. While still injured she stumbled to try to find her, thinking to herself "I want to see her". Because she loved her that much. I think just that scene alone is enough to prove that Seiya was so deeply in love with Usagi there was no "helping it".

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
At the end of the series I remember tactless Seiya, ignorant Usagi and ultraunderstanding Mamoru.

And I see Seiya's thought process rather like: " I made an ass of myself, so it would be better to stop pushing"
It was "tactless" of Seiya to tell the girl she loves that she'll never forget her and asked Mamoru to protect her? I think it was a beautiful way of her to step away, even though she still had as strong feelings for Usagi as ever.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
But Usagi and other senshi didn't believe the worst in Mamoru.
Again, because they KNOW Mamoru. What kind of person he is. Seiya didn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 1:31 am

Yes, it was tactless- given that her fiance stood right there. Now, Mamoru is trusting and calm man, but if he was different, there could be tensions between Usagi and Mamoru.

And Mamoru could judge Seiya with the same standard as Seiya him - he didn't know Seiya after all. Usagi fortunately chose the better man.

And IMO Seiya's at the end starts getting over his crush for Usagi.

At the time of the attack Seiya was pretty involved - but before he never has any point of reflection. And when he promises to not see Usagi, it was because of Starlights/outers tension, not Usagi's engagement.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 3:42 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Yes, it was tactless- given that her fiance stood right there. Now, Mamoru is trusting and calm man, but if he was different, there could be tensions between Usagi and Mamoru.
You're making it sound like she was openly flirting with Usagi. Shouldn't she at least be allowed to tell the girl she loves that she'll always be in her heart?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And Mamoru could judge Seiya with the same standard as Seiya him - he didn't know Seiya after all. Usagi fortunately chose the better man.
Judge Seiya about what? What Mamoru knows about Seiya is that she, along with Taiki and Yaten, are three sailor senshi who helped Usagi stay strong until the very end. What negative judgment has he to make against Seiya?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And IMO Seiya's at the end starts getting over his crush for Usagi.
What in the series indicated that?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
At the time of the attack Seiya was pretty involved - but before he never has any point of reflection. And when he promises to not see Usagi, it was because of Starlights/outers tension, not Usagi's engagement.
You have to keep in mind that Seiya didn't start taking her own feelings very seriously until later on in the season. She did a lot of playful flirting with Usagi, but she mostly seemed enjoy teasing her, kinda like Haruka often does. I don't think Seiya herself realized the depths of her feelings for Usagi until she was already way too deeply in love with her, which I think she realized sometime before they both revealed their identities to each other.
And of course she did it because of the tension between the senshi. She had no reason to stay away from Usagi other than that. Usagi wanted her around and she wanted to be around Usagi. They were both suffering from being away from each other and they both tried to meet up anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 5:33 am

@Louchan wrote:
Shouldn't she at least be allowed to tell the girl she loves that she'll always be in her heart?

No- loving somebody doesn't give you right for such declarations.

@Louchan wrote:
Judge Seiya about what? What Mamoru knows about Seiya is that she, along with Taiki and Yaten, are three sailor senshi who helped Usagi stay strong until the very end. What negative judgment has he to make against Seiya?
For me it was clear that Mamoru is fully aware of Seiya's feelings for Usagi.

You really hate Mamoru, don't you?


@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And IMO Seiya's at the end starts getting over his crush for Usagi.
What in the series indicated that?

Her reaction on seeing their princess alive post-battle.

@Louchan wrote:
You have to keep in mind that Seiya didn't start taking her own feelings very seriously until later on in the season. She did a lot of playful flirting with Usagi, but she mostly seemed enjoy teasing her, kinda like Haruka often does. I don't think Seiya herself realized the depths of her feelings for Usagi until she was already way too deeply in love with her, which I think she realized sometime before they both revealed their identities to each other.
I agree it was later - I would even put it post identities revelation. I said earlier that otherwise, Seiya would come off really badly.

Howover, I still would not let Seiya off the hook with his behaviour - flirting and teasing when Usagi repatedly objected to it, was not right.

@Louchan wrote:
And of course she did it because of the tension between the senshi. She had no reason to stay away from Usagi other than that.

Yes, she had - Usagi's being engaged.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 5:44 am

exactly when did Seiya find out Usa was engaged? i never watched the anime copletelyso i might have missed it.

also, no one hates anyone. though it seems Moonlight has a fairly strong dislike for Seiya. XD

also, why can't you tell someone you love them, even if they love someone else? don't you think maybe someone would regret never saying how they feel, even if they know nothing will come of it? or is it just Seiya doesn't have any rights? :p maybe she should be tied up, locked in a room and given gruel three times a day?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 5:48 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
You really hate Mamoru, don't you?

I just wanted to comment on this because you've said this earlier in the thread too. Just because someone disagrees with something doesn't necessarily mean that they hate a character. It's just that they view things different and that is all.

You can't always assume the worst of someone just because their views are different from your own.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 6:10 am

Actually, Louchan did openly declare her dislike for anime Mamoru, so it's not my assumption.

And I don't dislike Seiya - he/she is my favourite of Starlights/Three Lights. I quite like him/her though Mamoru I absolutely adore.

And also I notice some not right things with Seiya's attitude towards Usagi.

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