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 Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 6:13 am

Well, Louchan might have said that, but I only meant what I said in a general way xD Because you had assumed other people hated Mamoru too earlier in the thread.

I think a majority of people here do like Mamoru. =]

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 6:18 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
No- loving somebody doesn't give you right for such declarations.
I think that's a very cold and harsh opinion on your side and I disagree.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
For me it was clear that Mamoru is fully aware of Seiya's feelings for Usagi.
What does that matter? Are you saying Mamoru has the right to judge Seiya negatively because of Seiya's feelings for Usagi? That would be horrible on Mamoru's part. Look, let's take a look at what Seiya knew about Mamoru before she found out he was dead, and what Mamoru knew about Seiya after coming back.

Seiya's knoweldge about Mamoru: The man who Usagi loves, but who left her beind to go studying abroad and is now not replying to her letters or calls.
Mamoru's knowledge about Seiya: The sailor senshi who fought by Usagi's side until the very end, protecting her.

Which one of them do you think has the right to make more a negative judgment based on what they know?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
You really hate Mamoru, don't you?
I dislike the anime version of him a lot, yes. I like him in all other versions of the series though. Hate is a very strong word though, there are times when I did enjoy his character, like in the R movie for example.

@Louchan wrote:
Her reaction on seeing their princess alive post-battle.
Uh, you mean when she went "it's a miracle" along with Taiki and Yaten? That's it? That somehow made all the feelings of love that Seiya had been building up for Usagi during the entire season suddenly vanish in one second? I find that highly unlikely.

@Louchan wrote:
I agree it was later - I would even put it post identities revelation. I said earlier that otherwise, Seiya would come off really badly.

Howover, I still would not let Seiya off the hook with his behaviour - flirting and teasing when Usagi repatedly objected to it, was not right.
But the teasing from Seiya's part and loud objections on Usagi's parts were played purely for laughs, just like they were between Mamoru and Usagi in the first season. It's very obvious that Usagi loved having Seiya by her side, and she wouldn't have if she hated Seiya teasing her.

@Louchan wrote:
Yes, she had - Usagi's being engaged.
So let me get this straight... you believe that Seiya should have started ignoring and avoiding Usagi instead, even though that would have led to a lot of suffering for both Seiya AND Usagi?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 8:58 am

@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
No- loving somebody doesn't give you right for such declarations.
I think that's a very cold and harsh opinion on your side and I disagree.

But why? Why people usually sympathise with those with unrequited feelings, not these who are fancied and don't reciprocate?

Your feelings are yours and they don't give you right for their object.

@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
For me it was clear that Mamoru is fully aware of Seiya's feelings for Usagi.
What does that matter? Are you saying Mamoru has the right to judge Seiya negatively because of Seiya's feelings for Usagi? That would be horrible on Mamoru's part. Look, let's take a look at what Seiya knew about Mamoru before she found out he was dead, and what Mamoru knew about Seiya after coming back.

Seiya's knoweldge about Mamoru: The man who Usagi loves, but who left her beind to go studying abroad and is now not replying to her letters or calls.
Mamoru's knowledge about Seiya: The sailor senshi who fought by Usagi's side until the very end, protecting her.

Which one of them do you think has the right to make more a negative judgment based on what they know?
Firstly, Mamoru knows that Seiya openly declares his feelings for Usagi in his presence. Few people would be so understanding in his place.

Secondly, what Starlights' fighting with Galaxia has to do with Seiya/Usagi/Mamoru?


@Louchan wrote:
Uh, you mean when she went "it's a miracle" along with Taiki and Yaten? That's it? That somehow made all the feelings of love that Seiya had been building up for Usagi during the entire season suddenly vanish in one second? I find that highly unlikely.

I didn't say they vanish in a second, I said that she's starting getting over this. It's more than a miracle - pure joy on Sailor StarFighter's face and her expression of gratitude to Sailor Moon for bringing back their princess (analogical to earlier Usagi thanking Chibi Chibi for Mamoru's return) tell me she's already convinced that they are both at their right places, with persons most dear to them. Though it's clear these feelings are there yet in the goodbye scene.


@Louchan wrote:
But the teasing from Seiya's part and loud objections on Usagi's parts were played purely for laughs, just like they were between Mamoru and Usagi in the first season. It's very obvious that Usagi loved having Seiya by her side, and she wouldn't have if she hated Seiya teasing her.

I partly agree, partly disagree.

Firstly, the Seiya/Usagi interactions are completely different from Mamoru/Usagi from the first season. Usagi never reacts at Mamoru's teasing as hitting on her and she doesn't object to that - she gets
angry, because she believes Mamoru's critisisms of her are serious. Usagi barely admits loudly that she doesn't regard him as a jerk. But there are hints she's in denial of her feelings. Their teasing clearly becomes enjoyable for both and is a way of flirting.

With Seiya it's different - after initial ignoring they start friendship. They declare friendship, though Usagi takes some Seiya's actions as him hitting on her. And she makes it openly and explicitly clear that she's engaged, really serious about this guy (Mamoru) and sure of her feelings. When she believes Seiya's hitting on her she feels discomfort and expresses it. And she usually is ensured that she was wrong and that Seiya's intentions are pure and innocent and just friendshippy.

Yes, these scenes are played for laughs - but objections on Usagi's part aren't caused by confusion or denial, but her being sure of her feelings and roles Mamoru and Seiya play in her life. She is a woman there, a not a gril of first season.


@Louchan wrote:
So let me get this straight... you believe that Seiya should have started ignoring and avoiding Usagi instead, even though that would have led to a lot of suffering for both Seiya AND Usagi?

Wouldn't be it worse than causing her a great pain with his recklessness and lack of self-composure?

And she would understand if he gave his reasons as realizing that his feelings crossed the friendship line. She cared for him, but obviously under condition it would remain platonic.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 10:14 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
But why? Why people usually sympathise with those with unrequited feelings, not these who are fancied and don't reciprocate?

Your feelings are yours and they don't give you right for their object.
I think everyone should be allowed to tell the person they love how they feel. It's a desire that anyone who's ever been in love can relate to, that they at least want to tell that person, even if they know they can't be together. I've been in that situation myself, being in a relationship but having someone confess their feelings to me despite that. It's not rude, it's not selfish, it's not offensive in any way. It's something they should at the very least be allowed to do, because keeping those feelings locked up is both painful and psychologically unhealthy.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Firstly, Mamoru knows that Seiya openly declares his feelings for Usagi in his presence. Few people would be so understanding in his place.
Seiya told her "I'm glad you're back with your boyfriend", "I'll never forget you" and "Mamoru-san, you have to protect her from now on". She didn't say "I LOVE YOU, USAGI! I SURE WISH I COULD BE THE ONE MARRYING YOU INSTEAD OF THAT GUY OVER THERE!" If Mamoru had gotten upset at what Seiya said then, like I said before, that would have make him look really awful.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Secondly, what Starlights' fighting with Galaxia has to do with Seiya/Usagi/Mamoru?
Uh, it has to do with what Mamoru knew about Seiya, like I said.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I didn't say they vanish in a second, I said that she's starting getting over this. It's more than a miracle - pure joy on Sailor StarFighter's face and her expression of gratitude to Sailor Moon for bringing back their princess (analogical to earlier Usagi thanking Chibi Chibi for Mamoru's return) tell me she's already convinced that they are both at their right places, with persons most dear to them. Though it's clear these feelings are there yet in the goodbye scene.
You mean... the same look of joy that all the Starlights had on their faces? Come on... there is absolutely no indication at all that Seiya was starting to get over her feelings for Usagi at the end. Quite the opposite. You're seeing and interpreting things that aren't actually there.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I partly agree, partly disagree.

Firstly, the Seiya/Usagi interactions are completely different from Mamoru/Usagi from the first season. Usagi never reacts at Mamoru's teasing as hitting on her and she doesn't object to that - she gets
angry, because she believes Mamoru's critisisms of her are serious. Usagi barely admits loudly that she doesn't regard him as a jerk. But there are hints she's in denial of her feelings. Their teasing clearly becomes enjoyable for both and is a way of flirting.

With Seiya it's different - after initial ignoring they start friendship. They declare friendship, though Usagi takes some Seiya's actions as him hitting on her. And she makes it openly and explicitly clear that she's engaged, really serious about this guy (Mamoru) and sure of her feelings. When she believes Seiya's hitting on her she feels discomfort and expresses it. And she usually is ensured that she was wrong and that Seiya's intentions are pure and innocent and just friendshippy.

Yes, these scenes are played for laughs - but objections on Usagi's part aren't caused by confusion or denial, but her being sure of her feelings and roles Mamoru and Seiya play in her life. She is a woman there, a not a gril of first season.
Honestly, I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. The only difference between the comedy between Mamoru and Usagi in season one and Seiya and Usagi in Stars is that with Mamoru it was comedy playing on them bickering and with Seiya it was comedy playing on her playful flirting with Usagi. In the end it's nothing that should ever be taken seriously. Mamoru literally made Usagi cry with some of the things he said to her in the first season. Was this supposed to be seen as tragic for the audience? No, it was supposed to be seen as funny, and that's all it is.
Different ingredients for the same humor cake. Just eat and enjoy it without any over-analyzation.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Wouldn't be it worse than causing her a great pain with his recklessness and lack of self-composure?
When did Seiya ever cause Usagi great pain with her "recklessness and lack of self-composure"? Show me a moment in the anime showing Usagi suffering because of Seiya's attitude. And no, comedic scenes don't count, they aren't meant to show actual suffering. Because the only scenes I can remember with Usagi suffering because of something about Seiya... is when she wasn't allowed to be with Seiya.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And she would understand if he gave his reasons as realizing that his feelings crossed the friendship line. She cared for him, but obviously under condition it would remain platonic.
I highly doubt she'd just accept Seiya telling her she wouldn't see her again. Both Usagi and Seiya could literally not stay away from each other after Seiya did just that in the anime. They both tried to call each other, they both went to meet each other behind the other senshi's backs, Usagi sneaked off to meet Seiya before her final concert... the list just goes on and on.
And again, like a few previous members here have brought up, what's wrong with Seiya being friends with Usagi even though she's in love with her? That's just ridiculous. I have a friend who I know is in love with me. He confessed it, I turned him down, we're still friends despite it. There is no "crossing the friendship line" because you're in love with someone, that's just a really, really harsh thing to suggest.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 12:03 pm

@Louchan wrote:
I think everyone should be allowed to tell the person they love how they feel. It's a desire that anyone who's ever been in love can relate to, that they at least want to tell that person, even if they know they can't be together. I've been in that situation myself, being in a relationship but having someone confess their feelings to me despite that. It's not rude, it's not selfish, it's not offensive in any way. It's something they should at the very least be allowed to do, because keeping those feelings locked up is both painful and psychologically unhealthy.

Do you remember SuperS episode with Saori? IIRC, 132.



@Louchan wrote:
You mean... the same look of joy that all the Starlights had on their faces?

They obviously did all - what does this change?

@Louchan wrote:
Honestly, I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. The only difference between the comedy between Mamoru and Usagi in season one and Seiya and Usagi in Stars is that with Mamoru it was comedy playing on them bickering and with Seiya it was comedy playing on her playful flirting with Usagi. In the end it's nothing that should ever be taken seriously. Mamoru literally made Usagi cry with some of the things he said to her in the first season. Was this supposed to be seen as tragic for the audience? No, it was supposed to be seen as funny, and that's all it is.
Different ingredients for the same humor cake. Just eat and enjoy it without any over-analyzation.
The only time I remember Usagi crying because of Mamoru's words in first season was when he said that only idiot would fall in love with her - and IMO this is supposed to be subtle irony.


@Louchan wrote:
When did Seiya ever cause Usagi great pain with her "recklessness and lack of self-composure"? Show me a moment in the anime showing Usagi suffering because of Seiya's attitude.


"Am I not good enough" scene. Look of her face is really striking. Poor girl - up to this moment she could really believe in Seiya's friendshippy intentions.

@Louchan wrote:
I highly doubt she'd just accept Seiya telling her she wouldn't see her again. Both Usagi and Seiya could literally not stay away from each other after Seiya did just that in the anime. They both tried to call each other, they both went to meet each other behind the other senshi's backs, Usagi sneaked off to meet Seiya before her final concert... the list just goes on and on.

Usagi didn't go to Seiya before concert, because she couldn't stay away from him, she went there to discuss things after rooftop scene. Especially after being unjustly chided by Rei for leading Seiya on. And their meeting pre-concert really shows IMO that their relationship was greatly shaken because of Seiya's actions. There I have sense of finality to it.


@Louchan wrote:
And again, like a few previous members here have brought up, what's wrong with Seiya being friends with Usagi even though she's in love with her? That's just ridiculous. I have a friend who I know is in love with me. He confessed it, I turned him down, we're still friends despite it. There is no "crossing the friendship line" because you're in love with someone, that's just a really, really harsh thing to suggest.

It may be different if all parties involved get the whole situation and agree on that. Usagi didn't know till roof scene. Before that, she insisted on all being platonic with Seiya. She would never agree on friendship with somebody having feelings for her.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 12:21 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
It may be different if all parties involved get the whole situation and agree on that. Usagi didn't know till roof scene. Before that, she insisted on all being platonic with Seiya. She would never agree on friendship with somebody having feelings for her.

I think Usagi, being who she is and how loving she is to every single person she meets, would still want to be friends with someone who she knows has more than friendly feelings for her. Usagi cherishes all of her friendships greatly, and I don't think she would ever refuse to be friends with *anyone* regardless of anything that has happened.

I mean, we're talking about the girl who heals and forgives a lot of enemies who have done a lot worse things than simply falling in love with her. Usagi would still want to be friends with Seiya, regardless if Seiya has feelings for her or not.

And I don't understand how anyone could think that is wrong in any way. Accepting people and their emotions and their feelings is a wonderful thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   30th September 2012, 12:36 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Do you remember SuperS episode with Saori? IIRC, 132.
Yes, I believe I do. What about it?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
They obviously did all - what does this change?
It makes your argument fall flat. You said that Seiya's expression was somehow proof that she was getting over her feelings for Usagi.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
The only time I remember Usagi crying because of Mamoru's words in first season was when he said that only idiot would fall in love with her - and IMO this is supposed to be subtle irony.
You missed my point here. I was saying that even when Mamoru made her cry it was all supposed to be just simple comedy, just like with Seiya's flirtatiousness.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
"Am I not good enough" scene. Look of her face is really striking. Poor girl - up to this moment she could really believe in Seiya's friendshippy intentions.
Uh, I think you completely misinterpreted that scene. Usagi wasn't bawling her eyes out about Seiya being in love with her, she was crying about Mamoru not being there.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Usagi didn't go to Seiya before concert, because she couldn't stay away from him, she went there to discuss things after rooftop scene. Especially after being unjustly chided by Rei for leading Seiya on. And their meeting pre-concert really shows IMO that their relationship was greatly shaken because of Seiya's actions. There I have sense of finality to it.
Yes, she wanted to tell Seiya that she didn't feel the same way about her, but as she told Haruka, she also wanted to see her before the final concert because, as she put it herself, "I love Mamo-chan, but I have other people I love too." Meaning Seiya.
And are you suggesting Usagi stopped wanting to be friends with Seiya after that? Because, you know... she literally told him in the final episode "we'll always be friends".

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
It may be different if all parties involved get the whole situation and agree on that. Usagi didn't know till roof scene. Before that, she insisted on all being platonic with Seiya. She would never agree on friendship with somebody having feelings for her.
That last part is just... ridiculous to me, I'm sorry. But knowing Usagi's character she would NEVER turn anyone's friendship away. I can't understand how you can even imagine her doing this.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st October 2012, 9:38 am

... And in other news, this debate is over. SeiMamo won.


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I'm sorry, I just had to share this.
...
No, I'm not really sorry.
And no, debate is not really over, I'm loving this stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st October 2012, 9:50 am

XD it's always nice to remind us, Usagi isn't the center of the universe as awesome as she is. ^^

Seimamo!!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st October 2012, 9:54 am

OMG Seimamo!
Ha! Ha! Ha!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st October 2012, 10:07 am

Lol I've seen this on dA XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st October 2012, 10:18 am

Headcanon accepted!


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st October 2012, 12:38 pm

@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Do you remember SuperS episode with Saori? IIRC, 132.
Yes, I believe I do. What about it?
It presents non-declaring your feelings as right thing to do (and without any negative psychological consequences for the character )


[quote=Louchan"]
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
"Am I not good enough" scene. Look of her face is really striking. Poor girl - up to this moment she could really believe in Seiya's friendshippy intentions.
Uh, I think you completely misinterpreted that scene. Usagi wasn't bawling her eyes out about Seiya being in love with her, she was crying about Mamoru not being there. [/quote]

Yes, her crying was for Mamoru. I meant the look of shock after Seiya hits on her. it's all so heartbreaking and tense

@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Usagi didn't go to Seiya before concert, because she couldn't stay away from him, she went there to discuss things after rooftop scene. Especially after being unjustly chided by Rei for leading Seiya on. And their meeting pre-concert really shows IMO that their relationship was greatly shaken because of Seiya's actions. There I have sense of finality to it.
Yes, she wanted to tell Seiya that she didn't feel the same way about her, but as she told Haruka, she also wanted to see her before the final concert because, as she put it herself, "I love Mamo-chan, but I have other people I love too." Meaning Seiya.
And are you suggesting Usagi stopped wanting to be friends with Seiya after that? Because, you know... she literally told him in the final episode "we'll always be friends".

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
It may be different if all parties involved get the whole situation and agree on that. Usagi didn't know till roof scene. Before that, she insisted on all being platonic with Seiya. She would never agree on friendship with somebody having feelings for her.
That last part is just... ridiculous to me, I'm sorry. But knowing Usagi's character she would NEVER turn anyone's friendship away. I can't understand how you can even imagine her doing this.

Usagi still cared for Seiya, but she wouldn't and couldn't continue the friendship with Seiya the same innocent way as before. And IMO Seiya got this.

Usagi made a scene about Mamoru talking to Ami about physics when all girls were present. Do you think she would be so hypocritical as to be close friends with somebody in love with her? Remember Mamoru is her first priority.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   1st October 2012, 1:33 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
It presents non-declaring your feelings as right thing to do (and without any negative psychological consequences for the character )
Indeed, in that case, it did. It varies from person to person, really. There is no real right or wrong action to take in this kind of situation, but it is a fact that it can have negative effect on a person so I still believe the best thing to do is say it.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Yes, her crying was for Mamoru. I meant the look of shock after Seiya hits on her. it's all so heartbreaking and tense
Of course she was shocked. Anyone would be. Usagi never understood the dephts of Seiya's feelings for her up until that point. But does this count as "causing her a great pain with his recklessness and lack of self-composure"? Absolutely not.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Usagi still cared for Seiya, but she wouldn't and couldn't continue the friendship with Seiya the same innocent way as before. And IMO Seiya got this.

Usagi made a scene about Mamoru talking to Ami about physics when all girls were present. Do you think she would be so hypocritical as to be close friends with somebody in love with her? Remember Mamoru is her first priority.
I... honestly don't know what to say about this. I can't find the words.

The fact that you believe Usagi, the girl who offered her friendship to people like Nehellenia, would turn down Seiya's friendship simply because she loves her is... mind blowing to me. And it's even more mind blowing that you seem to believe that it's, for some reason, wrong to be friends with someone who is in love with you, which honestly I can't help but to find a bit insulting as well since, like I said before, I have a very good friend who I know is in love with me. I mean no offense, but to be perfectly frank I find the very idea that you feel someone who's in a relationship with someone needs to stay away from people who have feelings for them rather disgusting.

Usagi said she loves Seiya. Usagi told Seiya they'll always be friends. Usagi is not the type of person who would ever, not in a million years, turn anyone's friendship away.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd October 2012, 12:38 pm

When did Usagi say she loves Seiya?

There are different people and different relationships. Maybe it would be possible to reach friendship in such circumstances (Yuuichiro & Rei?), still there is a great conflict of interests, of wishes, of trust. Friends do have different role, which can be harmed by hidden motives. Seeing Seiya and Saori does support my conviction that's very difficult.

As for being friends with someone who is in love with you while you're in a relationship - again people and relationships are different. And we're talking about Usagi and her relationship with Mamoru. Which is Usagi main purpose and biggest dream in life. Usagi did everything absolutely in her power to ensure everybody that Mamoru is her only one and Seiya's just a friend. And she did write to Mamoru about Seiya to ensure he knows it and is ok with this.

If he wasn't, this would be end to Seiya and Usagi relationship, even without Seiya's romantic feelings.

And after the rooftop scene- it's completely unbelievable she would continue this - and futhermore, IMO in this scene Seiya knows this too and understands. It's clearly a goodbye, not a scene of friends sorting out a misunderstanding to get a fresh start.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd October 2012, 1:29 pm

Okay, back up a bit here.

First: if you think Usagi can't be friends with someone just because Mamoru may not agree or "approve", you are implying that Mamoru is controlling. And I'm pretty sure he's not. You are painting Mamoru in a bad light with this debate I'm afraid to say. At least, right now you are.

Second: It's pretty clear Usagi loves Seiya. You don't hear her tell *any* of the senshi that she loves them, do you? But you still know she loves them. It's obvious. Because they are friends and Usagi automatically loves anyone she's friends with. She loves the other Starlights, too. But why do you think she was so upset when she couldn't see Seiya temporarily? Did you even watch the season or what happened here? Cause so far, it sounds like you didn't. Or you skipped around and you missed some things.

Your positions are...very strange to me. They honestly make zero sense to me, which makes me assume you haven't faced any sort of complexity in your relationships. Or, perhaps you've faced such hard complexities that you take this strange stance. Either way, it's weird. To say that Usagi cannot be friends with Seiya because Seiya is in love with her is absolutely absurd. And then to basically imply that she must follow what Mamoru says, thus making it sound like he's controlling is astounding. Do you have some view that men are to control the ladies they are with? Cause, that's not how it works. Especially in Sailor Moon.

Everybody knows Mamoru is her one and only. So I don't know what exactly you're getting at, except for making Mamoru look bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   2nd October 2012, 10:26 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
When did Usagi say she loves Seiya?
Right after the episode you claim made her not want to be friends with Seiya anymore.



@Moonlight Lady wrote:
There are different people and different relationships. Maybe it would be possible to reach friendship in such circumstances (Yuuichiro & Rei?), still there is a great conflict of interests, of wishes, of trust. Friends do have different role, which can be harmed by hidden motives. Seeing Seiya and Saori does support my conviction that's very difficult.
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this part here. Are you now claiming that friends should be filtered out of some relationships completely?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
As for being friends with someone who is in love with you while you're in a relationship - again people and relationships are different. And we're talking about Usagi and her relationship with Mamoru. Which is Usagi main purpose and biggest dream in life. Usagi did everything absolutely in her power to ensure everybody that Mamoru is her only one and Seiya's just a friend. And she did write to Mamoru about Seiya to ensure he knows it and is ok with this.
Exactly. She did. While I do believe that Usagi has some feelings for Seiya too, although probably just a crush that she wouldn't allow to grow any further, she did indeed make sure everyone knew that they were just friends. So what's the problem here? Don't you think Usagi can be trusted with being friends with Seiya despite her feelings for her?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
If he wasn't, this would be end to Seiya and Usagi relationship, even without Seiya's romantic feelings.
Agreeing with Lady Tuxedo here. You're painting Mamoru in a terrible light if you think he can just tell Usagi who she can or can't be friends with. That's extremely controlling behavior.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And after the rooftop scene- it's completely unbelievable she would continue this - and futhermore, IMO in this scene Seiya knows this too and understands. It's clearly a goodbye, not a scene of friends sorting out a misunderstanding to get a fresh start.
You keep saying it's all so very obvious and clear, but you have showed us no proof to back this up with. My argument is that this goes against Usagi's character completely, and also against her own words ("I have other people I love too", "We'll always be friends"), so what is your proof that Usagi suddenly does not want anything to do with Seiya anymore? And please... no more "you can see it on her face", that's not proof, I'm talking actual dialogue here.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   3rd October 2012, 12:39 pm

What "actual dialogue" would you like if all Usagi says in preconcert scene is "Seiya" and "I'm sorry"? We have little without the look on her face.

Usagi says to Rei as fortune teller that she doesn't love Seiya. In the scene you quote with Haruka and Michuru she doesn't say "Seiya", but "other people". So she cares about Seiya as about everybody.

Lady Tuxedo, of course Mamoru is not controlling in any way! A passing knowledge of his character tells it! I am not by any means saying Mamoru would forbid Usagi to meet Seiya, I am saying she wouldn't if he wanted (which he wouldn't). She would not risk relationship with Mamoru because of Seiya.

And it's not about men controlling ladies, it's about expectations in relationship. Usagi has very strong views of what's acceptable, so it's only fair she played by her own standards. It would go against her character if she was like: "Mamo-chan, I know I was jealous about our daughter, I made a scene any time you were kind to a female (including my closest friends) and I sent a kitten to spy on you, but I expect from you to accept my friendship with a guy who crushes on me". Sorry?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   3rd October 2012, 12:40 pm

What "actual dialogue" would you like if all Usagi says in preconcert scene is "Seiya" and "I'm sorry"? We have little without the look on her face.

Usagi says to Rei as fortune teller that she doesn't love Seiya. In the scene you quote with Haruka and Michuru she doesn't say "Seiya", but "other people". So she cares about Seiya as about everybody.

Lady Tuxedo, of course Mamoru is not controlling in any way! A passing knowledge of his character tells it! I am not by any means saying Mamoru would forbid Usagi to meet Seiya, I am saying she wouldn't if he wanted (which he wouldn't). She would not risk relationship with Mamoru because of Seiya.

And it's not about men controlling ladies, it's about expectations in relationship. Usagi has very strong views of what's acceptable, so it's only fair she played by her own standards. It would go against her character if she was like: "Mamo-chan, I know I was jealous about our daughter, I made a scene any time you were kind to a female (including my closest friends) and I sent a kitten to spy on you, but I expect from you to accept my friendship with a guy who crushes on me". Sorry?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   3rd October 2012, 1:05 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
What "actual dialogue" would you like if all Usagi says in preconcert scene is "Seiya" and "I'm sorry"? We have little without the look on her face.
Exactly.
Meaning there is literally no proof to back up your claim with.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Usagi says to Rei as fortune teller that she doesn't love Seiya. In the scene you quote with Haruka and Michuru she doesn't say "Seiya", but "other people". So she cares about Seiya as about everybody.
Again, exactly.
Usagi loves all of her friends. Seiya is one of her friends, and thus she loves her as one. This should make it more than clear enough that she does not want to give up her friendship with her.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Lady Tuxedo, of course Mamoru is not controlling in any way! A passing knowledge of his character tells it! I am not by any means saying Mamoru would forbid Usagi to meet Seiya, I am saying she wouldn't if he wanted (which he wouldn't). She would not risk relationship with Mamoru because of Seiya.
But that's such a bizarre argument to make. That's like saying "Rei would stop lecturing Usagi if Usagi just threatened to banish her from Crystal Tokyo once she becomes queen". It's just something that would never ever happen, so what's the point in even bringing it up?
And honestly, let's say in some strange alternate universe, Mamoru did tell Usagi to stay away from Seiya, I still don't believe she would. I believe she would instead start wondering if something's wrong with Mamoru that would make him say such a terrible thing.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And it's not about men controlling ladies, it's about expectations in relationship. Usagi has very strong views of what's acceptable, so it's only fair she played by her own standards. It would go against her character if she was like: "Mamo-chan, I know I was jealous about our daughter, I made a scene any time you were kind to a female (including my closest friends) and I sent a kitten to spy on you, but I expect from you to accept my friendship with a guy who crushes on me". Sorry?
But again, most of those scenes where Usagi gets jealous are comedic. And even though Usagi does get jealous easily, she would never demand Mamoru to stop meeting any of his friends. You brought up Saori earlier so let's bring her up again. When Chibiusa told Usagi that she was worried that there might be something between Saori and Mamoru, Usagi laughed it off, saying she trusts Mamoru. This is what's expected in a relationship. Trust. Not filtering your friends away.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   4th October 2012, 11:48 am

@Louchan wrote:
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this part here. Are you now claiming that friends should be filtered out of some relationships completely?
No - I'm saying that being both friend and in love can lead to many unpleasant situations. Like when Saori makes a trap on Mamoru, pretending that she wants his help to buy a tie for some guy.


@Louchan wrote:
Exactly. She did. While I do believe that Usagi has some feelings for Seiya too, although probably just a crush that she wouldn't allow to grow any further, she did indeed make sure everyone knew that they were just friends. So what's the problem here? Don't you think Usagi can be trusted with being friends with Seiya despite her feelings for her?
I do absolutely believe Usagi can be completaly trusted - IMO she never has any feelings for Seiya and he never stood any chance with her.

However can Seiya be trusted?

And if you believe it's possible not to allow your crush grow - shouldn't Seiya be judged for allowing it?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   4th October 2012, 12:10 pm

Aw, you didn't reply to nearly as many of my points as I was hoping for... in fact, you seem to be cutting down on what you reply to with each of your posts.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
No - I'm saying that being both friend and in love can lead to many unpleasant situations. Like when Saori makes a trap on Mamoru, pretending that she wants his help to buy a tie for some guy.
The fact that you call it a "trap" is very telling... out of curiosity, and I know this a pretty personal question, but have you had some kind of negative experience of having a friend with romantic feelings for either you or a love interest of yours? Because you just seem to feel so strongly against it, I can't really understand it. You don't need to answer me if you don't want to, I'm aware that this is going a little off-topic from the actual debate here.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I do absolutely believe Usagi can be completaly trusted - IMO she never has any feelings for Seiya and he never stood any chance with her.

However can Seiya be trusted?
Uh, are you suggesting Seiya would, like... assault Usagi or something? What exactly can she not be trusted with? You say you're so sure that Usagi would never feel the same way about Seiya, so what's the problem with them being friends and hanging out with each other? What do you think could happen?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And if you believe it's possible not to allow your crush grow - shouldn't Seiya be judged for allowing it?
... When did I ever say that? I believe the exact opposite of that, that it's impossible to control who you fall in love with. You can't possibly tell a person who has fallen in love that "oh, that was bad of you, you shouldn't have allowed that to happen", that's completely absurd.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   4th October 2012, 12:11 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Louchan wrote:
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this part here. Are you now claiming that friends should be filtered out of some relationships completely?
No - I'm saying that being both friend and in love can lead to many unpleasant situations. Like when Saori makes a trap on Mamoru, pretending that she wants his help to buy a tie for some guy.

Okay, but not everybody is like this. Seriously. Not everybody is tries to bait somebody into what could be a "cheating situation". There ARE decent people in the world, they're just harder to find. Doesn't mean they don't exist though.

I honestly give Seiya more credit than you do. Yeah, Seiya doesn't understand the entire season and she wants to be with Usagi, but in the end, she understands and is happy for Usagi. She tells Mamoru to never leave her side again and to protect her. If you're going to interpret that as not happy for Usagi...I don't even know what to say to you then. Have you NOT heard of people saying "in the end, I just want them happy. Even if they're not with me."? o_o that is a sign of real love right there.


@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Louchan wrote:
Exactly. She did. While I do believe that Usagi has some feelings for Seiya too, although probably just a crush that she wouldn't allow to grow any further, she did indeed make sure everyone knew that they were just friends. So what's the problem here? Don't you think Usagi can be trusted with being friends with Seiya despite her feelings for her?
I do absolutely believe Usagi can be completaly trusted - IMO she never has any feelings for Seiya and he never stood any chance with her.

However can Seiya be trusted?

Yes o_O Seiya was NOT as pushy as you try to make her seem. She did not once force herself onto Usagi. She tried to kiss her, yes, but she didn't force Usagi to kiss her on the lips. She did NOT force her to be with her. She did NOT force anything with Usagi. And that's what I like about Seiya. You had Prince Demand who was obsessed with Usagi and would force all sorts of things on Usagi and then you have Seiya, who truly loved Usagi and didn't force anything on her. She just enjoyed being able to see her and spend time with her. And if you're going to use the kiss as some kind of force, lemme remind you again: Seiya. had. no. idea. She didn't. She didn't believe Mamoru was being good to Usagi and she just wanted to try. I feel like, however, when Usagi pulled away, sensing Seiya was gonna try and kiss her, that was part of the "wake up call" that told Seiya that, well, it's just not going to happen. That Usagi has Mamoru; she's telling the truth and she's fiercely dedicated to him.

Keep in mind too that girls are not above lying and being like "oh yeah I have a boyfriend...he's just not here..." and have it be a boldface lie.

I just love the fact that you keep denying that Usagi had any kind of feelings for Seiya. A tiny crush is feelings and a tiny crush is what she had. Love is more powerful than a crush, hence why this crush did not develop into anything more than just a crush. And as sad as it is, a crush can develop while you're in a relationship. You can also crush on multiple people at once. You can also be in love with multiple people at once.

I also love how you outright ignored me when I asked if you even watched the whole season, entirely, or if you skipped around. Because I'm honestly feeling like you did skip around because a) you didn't like that Mamoru wasn't there and b) you strongly dislike Seiya and you just missed some important things.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And if you believe it's possible not to allow your crush grow - shouldn't Seiya be judged for allowing it?

Why should she be judged for having normal human feelings? o_O this is bad reasoning. I have never, ever, ever heard of somebody saying judgement should be passed because they have a crush or love someone, unless they're downright jerks. We'd ALL have to be judged then for who we crush on or even love. And honestly that makes me really mad when people suggest crap like that. Who are you to judge who loves who or who can like who?

Usagi didn't cheat. Usagi didn't do anything wrong. Seiya didn't force anything. Seiya didn't do anything wrong either. You may THINK so, because you love Mamoru so much and hate Seiya, but to go so far and suggest all this...nonsense when none of this happened, you just play it up to be much worse than it is *shakes head*. All you're doing is painting Mamoru in a bad light and trying to justify your hate towards Seiya when in reality there is no reason to hate her. If anything, you should be glad Seiya was THERE to HELP Usagi when Mamoru wasn't.

I'm going back over to the good light that's on Mamoru because this is just getting ridiculous now. Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   4th October 2012, 12:18 pm

Well said, Lady Tuxedo, but... calm yourself, girl. I feel like this might just be going to your head.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   4th October 2012, 12:21 pm

Yeah I know. Bad me. XD that's why I feel like I need to withdraw myself from this thread for a little bit like I did before. You seem to have a good stances, so the floor is yours. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   4th October 2012, 12:40 pm

@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
What "actual dialogue" would you like if all Usagi says in preconcert scene is "Seiya" and "I'm sorry"? We have little without the look on her face.
Exactly.
Meaning there is literally no proof to back up your claim with.

For what Usagi apologises to Seiya if not for ending their friendship? Why there is no mention there of continuing their friendship and details of it? Why Seiya makes no apologies, but tries to kiss Usagi in the end, if it's not a goodbye kiss? Why is Usagi so distressed and cries?

@Louchan wrote:
Again, exactly.
Usagi loves all of her friends. Seiya is one of her friends, and thus she loves her as one. This should make it more than clear enough that she does not want to give up her friendship with her.

It's clear in the preconcert scene that she doesn't want to, but in this situation she can't otherwise. And they both are aware of this.

@Louchan wrote:
But that's such a bizarre argument to make. That's like saying "Rei would stop lecturing Usagi if Usagi just threatened to banish her from Crystal Tokyo once she becomes queen". It's just something that would never ever happen, so what's the point in even bringing it up?
And honestly, let's say in some strange alternate universe, Mamoru did tell Usagi to stay away from Seiya, I still don't believe she would. I believe she would instead start wondering if something's wrong with Mamoru that would make him say such a terrible thing.

Mamoru's forbidding would never happen, but Usagi seeking Mamoru's approval for her friendship with Seiya is in this universe. Therefore, I believe she would stay away from Seiya.

Louchan wrote:
But again, most of those scenes where Usagi gets jealous are comedic. And even though Usagi does get jealous easily, she would never demand Mamoru to stop meeting any of his friends. You brought up Saori earlier so let's bring her up again. When Chibiusa told Usagi that she was worried that there might be something between Saori and Mamoru, Usagi laughed it off, saying she trusts Mamoru. This is what's expected in a relationship. Trust. Not filtering your friends away.

Yes, these scenes are mostly for comedic effects and IMO Usagi's jealousy doesn't put their relationship in danger, yet they clearly shows she has trust issues. With Saori she made an exception (though she never know Saori's feelings for Mamoru), but what for instance with Rei's dream episode (Usagi-ninja)? And not only Mamoru she didn't trust, but Rei also.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   4th October 2012, 1:06 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
For what Usagi apologises to Seiya if not for ending their friendship? Why there is no mention there of continuing their friendship and details of it? Why Seiya makes no apologies, but tries to kiss Usagi in the end, if it's not a goodbye kiss? Why is Usagi so distressed and cries?
All very simple.
Usagi apologizes to her because she doesn't feel the same way as Seiya does.
There is no mention of continuing their friendship because there's no reason why they wouldn't.
Seiya kisses Usagi because she loves her.
Usagi is sad because she has to hurt Seiya by turning her feelings down.
This whole "we can't be friends anymore" business exists only in your mind and there's nothing in the anime that supports it but tons of things that go against it.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
It's clear in the preconcert scene that she doesn't want to, but in this situation she can't otherwise. And they both are aware of this.
Again, nothing in the show supports this theory of yours. (And must I repeat the "we'll always be friends" thing over and over again?)

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Mamoru's forbidding would never happen, but Usagi seeking Mamoru's approval for her friendship with Seiya is in this universe. Therefore, I believe she would stay away from Seiya.
When exactly did Usagi seek Mamoru's "approval" for being friends with Seiya?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Yes, these scenes are mostly for comedic effects and IMO Usagi's jealousy doesn't put their relationship in danger, yet they clearly shows she has trust issues. With Saori she made an exception (though she never know Saori's feelings for Mamoru), but what for instance with Rei's dream episode (Usagi-ninja)? And not only Mamoru she didn't trust, but Rei also.
I feel like I'm saying this over and over again, but you simply cannot compare serious anime moments with comedic anime moments. There would never be a serious moment where Usagi worries about Mamoru and Rei having something together past the first season. Traits and situations are exaggerated for the sake of comedy, sometimes characters are even made to act in ways they would normally never do. A good example is all the inners in episode 187, when they tell Usagi that she'll without a doubt fail the baseball game and that'll mean she can't be with Seiya anymore and so they can spend more time with Seiya instead. Is this supposed to show that they all have some kind of lack of trust or spite towards Usagi? NO. It's supposed to be funny.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   5th October 2012, 1:26 pm

@Louchan wrote:
All very simple.
Usagi apologizes to her because she doesn't feel the same way as Seiya does.
There is no mention of continuing their friendship because there's no reason why they wouldn't.
Seiya kisses Usagi because she loves her.
Usagi is sad because she has to hurt Seiya by turning her feelings down.
This whole "we can't be friends anymore" business exists only in your mind and there's nothing in the anime that supports it but tons of things that go against it.

Sorry?

Usagi has absolutely no reason to apologise Seiya for not feeling the same way. Usagi didn't hurt Seiya, he did it himself - and her too.

And the idea that Seiya has the right to kiss Usagi because of his love just kills me...

I don't know which of the two above is more offensive....

@Louchan wrote:
Again, nothing in the show supports this theory of yours. (And must I repeat the "we'll always be friends" thing over and over again?)

"We'll always be friends" was said in finale in completely different circumstances with completely different mood. In the preconcert

And the interpretation of the scene of Usagi apologetic to Seiya for the horrible crime of not having feelings for him and wanting to continuing their friendship is just awful, especially when Seiya makes no effort and takes no responsibility for his actions and to add .



@Louchan wrote:
When exactly did Usagi seek Mamoru's "approval" for being friends with Seiya?

In her letters to Mamoru, where she reports about her relationship with Seiya.

@Louchan wrote:
I feel like I'm saying this over and over again, but you simply cannot compare serious anime moments with comedic anime moments. There would never be a serious moment where Usagi worries about Mamoru and Rei having something together past the first season. Traits and situations are exaggerated for the sake of comedy, sometimes characters are even made to act in ways they would normally never do. A good example is all the inners in episode 187, when they tell Usagi that she'll without a doubt fail the baseball game and that'll mean she can't be with Seiya anymore and so they can spend more time with Seiya instead. Is this supposed to show that they all have some kind of lack of trust or spite towards Usagi? NO. It's supposed to be funny.

So you think we should not take into consideration for characters comedic scenes? That's pretty bizzare idea, that would mean cutting half of anime.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   5th October 2012, 1:46 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Sorry?

Usagi has absolutely no reason to apologise Seiya for not feeling the same way. Usagi didn't hurt Seiya, he did it himself - and her too.

And the idea that Seiya has the right to kiss Usagi because of his love just kills me...

I don't know which of the two above is more offensive....
When you turn down the feelings of someone you're gonna hurt them, that's just the way it works. It's hardly uncommon to tell that person "I'm sorry, but I just don't feel the same way" and that's what's going on here.
And I never said Seiya has the right to kiss Usagi, I just said why she did it.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
"We'll always be friends" was said in finale in completely different circumstances with completely different mood. In the preconcert
So you're saying Usagi didn't wanna be friends with Seiya anymore before the final concert, but then decided she wanted to be friends with her forever after it was all done with? That makes little sense to me.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And the interpretation of the scene of Usagi apologetic to Seiya for the horrible crime of not having feelings for him and wanting to continuing their friendship is just awful, especially when Seiya makes no effort and takes no responsibility for his actions and to add .
I refer to what I said above. Apologizing when you're turning someone's feelings down is common, because you know you're gonna have to hurt them by saying it.
And what exactly do you think Seiya should have done that would have been "taking responsibility for her actions"?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
In her letters to Mamoru, where she reports about her relationship with Seiya.
Please tell me which one, because I have no memory of Usagi asking for his approval.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
So you think we should not take into consideration for characters comedic scenes? That's pretty bizzare idea, that would mean cutting half of anime.
Yep. For the reasons I stated in my last post.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   6th October 2012, 3:34 am

@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
In her letters to Mamoru, where she reports about her relationship with Seiya.
Please tell me which one, because I have no memory of Usagi asking for his approval.

For instance in the episode where everybody is in Usagi's house - she writes to Mamoru about Seiya planning to visit.

@Louchan wrote:
Yep. For the reasons I stated in my last post.

Sorry, but it is unimaginable for me to take under consideration just serious scenes.

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Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?

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