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 Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?

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Louchan
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   13th October 2012, 9:56 am

@Crystalsetsuna wrote:
i still have yet to see anyone dispute why Usagi couldn't be with Seiya, aside from Mamo-chan being around. XD

i mean, look at his personality. he's funny, he's caring, he knows when to push boundaries and when to comfort, he's an idol so he makes MONDO money for food and gifts for Usa, he's protective and ready to give his life for Usa to keep her safe. is there really anything incompatible about them?
For me, there really isn't. I think Seiya and Usagi make a perfect match in terms of personalities and character, but of course you'll hear that from me since they're my favorite pairing in the series. xD If there was no Mamoru or Chibiusa then I'd see no reason for them not getting together, really.

@Crystalsetsuna wrote:
actually you kinda got it mixed Neon..XD in the
manga, Seiya is a girl disguised as a guy. in the manga, they actually
TURN INTO guys. but essentially yes, it probably would make Usa
bisexual
You mean in the ANIME they actually turn into guys. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   13th October 2012, 10:55 am

I totally can see Usagi falling in love with anyone, regardless of gender. I can see her as pansexual.

But I totally can see Usagi with Seiya, had things played out to where Seiya met Usagi first. You can tell Seiya really cares about her, would protect her, make sure she has fun, and would even push her limits to help her with certain situations (like school, maybe?). Being pushy is not always bad, which I think some people don't realize. You're pushed in school are you not? By your teacher? They give you all this work, pushing you to do it and get better.

What you stated though, Crystalsets, is what made me like the UsaSeiya ship in the first place. Their personalities are similar and they're similar, cute people. Again, I do not hate Mamoru or anything at all like that, but it's fun to think about what-ifs. So, if there was no Mamoru, I think Seiya and Usagi line up perfectly as a match.

The only conflict is Chibiusa. Usagi is a woman, Seiya is a woman. But, that's not really a conflict because all they'd have to do is go down to some hospital/lab, have them pull their eggs, do some fancy science work, and create a new life from both of their genetics (they're working on this in real life, actually). Plus, if two women do this method, obviously all they can have is girls, so Wink it works out! There could still be a Chibiusa, it would just be a different Chibiusa than the one we know and love today.

THANK YOU for bringing a new topic to the thread, Crystalsets!! Very Happy Before anybody gets worked up and starts shaking their head and pounding their fists, just know Crystalsets asked a why or why not question about Usagi and Seiya being compatible. No one killed off Mamoru, just, present why or why not you think Usagi and Seiya could/could not work out (do not say because of Mamoru; treat it as if he's not present).

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   13th October 2012, 5:22 pm

thanks Louchan, i did get that wrong...XD in the ANIME, the starlights literally turn into guys.

and tuxie you are very welcome! it seems a lot of people can't agree and are always choosing one or the other...so it seemed a great option for a debate topic.

also, i gotta disagree. i think that Seiya in her male form would be able to impregnate Usa. though i'm glad you agree on me with the "they could still have a Chibiusa" thing i said earlier.^^ and thank you for clarifying, so we don't have an annoying loop like earlier...i really don't want this topic locked!!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   20th October 2012, 11:05 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Before anybody gets worked up and starts shaking their head and pounding their fists, just know Crystalsets asked a why or why not question about Usagi and Seiya being compatible. No one killed off Mamoru, just, present why or why not you think Usagi and Seiya could/could not work out (do not say because of Mamoru; treat it as if he's not present).

I actually see Usagi and Seiya as totally incompatible in terms of personalities. Seiya is very competetive, challenge-oriented and hates losing. He/she also lacks flexibility and sense of boundaries. Usagi is very non-assertive and people-oriented. She loves and cares for everybody. Seiya would totally dominate in their relationship, doing what he believes to be the best, not taking under account Usagi's wishes. Usagi also likes usually peace and tranquility and Seiya needs challenges. He also needs frequent reinforcements to his self-esteem and it would be difficult for him to hold secondary place in the relationship.

Basically, after a few months she would be exhausted and he unfullfilled.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   20th October 2012, 11:25 am

@Louchan wrote:
If there was no Mamoru or Chibiusa then I'd see no reason for them not getting together, really.

And what about Seiya's duties and responsibilities, family or friends, loyalty to beloved Princess , destroyed planet, which needs everybody's effort to be rebuilt?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   20th October 2012, 12:36 pm

@Louchan wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
One of my favorite scenes that show this is the one that Louchan mentioned, where Seiya is holding Usagi and she thinks: "What? What's this feeling... Mamo-chan's warmth but a different scent. What? I don't understand..."

I will repeat: "Mamo-chan's warmth". I think that is a hugely profound thing to say. It shows that she still thinks of Mamoru as being the one to give her this warm and protected feeling, BUT that she is capable of feeling that same warmth but this other person, who is the same person she has been spending all of her time with, the same person who has been making her blush and feel happy.
Very well said! I disagree with what Moonlight Lady said about this reaction being simple because Seiya has a male figure, (but we never seem to agree on anything, so... ) I don't think this is a reaction that Usagi would get just from any guy putting his arms around her, that just doesn't seem much like her to me, there has to be something special about it that makes identify it as being of the same warmth and gentleness as Mamoru's. A sense of being protected and feeling safe in someone's embrace, I believe. And this is clearly something Usagi doesn't dislike since, well...



She seems pretty comfortably snuggled up against Seiya here. Razz Leaning in against her with her hand against her chest and everything. This could easily have resulted in a comedic scene of Usagi pushing Seiya away, like that time when Seiya ended up on top of her from being pushed by a door. But no, she not only allows Seiya's arms around her, she welcomes them.

(I just love posting screenshots wherever I go, don't I?)

I don't see Usagi as welcoming Seiya's arms - she seems very confused and uncomfortable. She simply reacted at being embraced by guy other that her beloved. But her reaction was remembering Mamoru, not being swept by Seiya. It was brief moment of confusion, caused by her innocence, but she got over it quickly. Later she is persistent in no letting Seiya get close and expresses no interest in seeing him detoweled by Chibi-Chibi, no attraction and no desire.

Did you read Sailor Jupiter's brilliant essay on that topic?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   20th October 2012, 1:15 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Louchan wrote:
If there was no Mamoru or Chibiusa then I'd see no reason for them not getting together, really.

And what about Seiya's duties and responsibilities, family or friends, loyalty to beloved Princess , destroyed planet, which needs everybody's effort to be rebuilt?

You could argue the same with Haruka and Michiru. Things can change and positions can be filled. We don't know much about Kinmoku.

Also, lovely Jupi's essay is just her opinion and beliefs. No I have not had the time to read them, but again, they're just what she believes.

Naturally Usagi was thinking of Mamoru. I still feel Usagi was conflicted, but I think the thing you're misunderstanding from me and Louchan is that I'm saying Usagi is in love with Seiya too when that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying she had a crush on Seiya, which confused her, but she was still in love with Mamoru. Being in love completely outweighs a crush. So that's the thing I think you're misunderstanding. No one said that Usagi was in love with Seiya. No one said her feelings for Seiya outweigh what she feels towards Mamoru. We're saying we've seen inklings of a crush towards Seiya. And you know what? We're not the only ones that saw it; other fans have too. PLUS the senshi in the show.

And honestly? I feel part of the reason they changed Seiya's gender for the show was to have the "crush" factor; to make Usagi harbor a crush and put her in another male's arms.

Just so you know too, Seiya's personality fits Usagi's more than Mamoru's does. Whatever you're seeing with Seiya and Usagi is being interpreted strangely. They go together quite well. Evidence has been provided to you and you choose to ignore it. There is no person that is 100% perfect for someone, remember that. But Seiya comes, personality wise, a lot closer to Usagi's personality than Mamoru does.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   20th October 2012, 4:44 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I actually see Usagi and Seiya as totally incompatible in terms of personalities. Seiya is very competetive, challenge-oriented and hates losing. He/she also lacks flexibility and sense of boundaries. Usagi is very non-assertive and people-oriented. She loves and cares for everybody. Seiya would totally dominate in their relationship, doing what he believes to be the best, not taking under account Usagi's wishes. Usagi also likes usually peace and tranquility and Seiya needs challenges. He also needs frequent reinforcements to his self-esteem and it would be difficult for him to hold secondary place in the relationship.

Basically, after a few months she would be exhausted and he unfullfilled.
Funny how two people who are apparently so incompatible in your eyes can love spending so much time in each other's company like Seiya and Usagi did. Razz And I see no reason why that would change if they were in a romantic relationship.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And what about Seiya's duties and responsibilities, family or friends, loyalty to beloved Princess , destroyed planet, which needs everybody's effort to be rebuilt?
If Neptune and Uranus can be in a relationship while still having their duties and responsibilities, why can't Seiya and Usagi? Why would Seiya's friends and family stop her from choosing to be with Usagi? Why can't she still be loyal to princess Kakyuu and her home planet? Why can't she have a long distance relationship with Usagi while she's needed on her planet and then go be with her when she's off-duty during times of peace and stability? They've clearly showed that traveling between the two galaxies is not any problem.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I
don't see Usagi as welcoming Seiya's arms - she seems very confused and
uncomfortable. She simply reacted at being embraced by guy other that
her beloved. But her reaction was remembering Mamoru, not being swept by
Seiya. It was brief moment of confusion, caused by her innocence, but
she got over it quickly. Later she is persistent in no letting Seiya get
close and expresses no interest in seeing him detoweled by Chibi-Chibi,
no attraction and no desire.
I don't know about you but I usually don't place my hand against the chest and lean up against someone who I'm not comfortable being held by. Yes, she felt a warmth similar to Mamoru's, but she also identified it as being different. But she didn't pull away from Seiya despite that realization, in fact, Seiya was the one who pulled away from her when Sailor Iron Mouse appered. And like Verdandi said, this is important because it shows Usagi IS capable of getting the feeling of warmth and safety (butterflies in her stomach perhaps?) from being held by someone other than Mamoru, and I do not think she'd get this from just any man putting his arms around her. And... seriously? Shielding her eyes instead of trying to catch a glimpse of Seiya's junk when she was about to lose her towel is proof a lack of attraction? xD No, dear... that's proof of modesty. Usagi is hardly a pervert, and I know I wouldn't try doing that to anyone I'm attracted to. That's just tasteless.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Did you read Sailor Jupiter's brilliant essay on that topic?
No, I haven't. I'd be glad to take a look if you would link me to it though.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   21st October 2012, 11:30 am

http://isshou-ni.net/seiyausagi_l.html

@Louchan wrote:
I have to say I don't really get this "well, Usagi rarely listens to Haruka and Michiru" argument. Are you implying that Usagi went against Haruka and Michiru's suggestions simply because... she usually does? Like, she wanted to rebel or something? Because I think Usagi would have kept on trying to meet Seiya even if everyone, both the inners and the outers, were telling her she shouldn't. It's not about who supported her meeting Seiya and who was against it, it's about Usagi's desire to see her over and over again.

I don't obviously imply that Usagi just wants to rebel against H&Mi - only that she has no problem opposing to them and going with what she believes is right. And in anime such clash of views between them happens quite often. In fact, Usagi-Seiya situation here is very remniscent of Chibiusa-Hotaru of S. The fact is that Usagi has the full support of her nearest and dearest with regard to meeting Seiya.




Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Did the outers make a comment about how Usagi has Mamoru? I believe so. Why do they do that? Let's think about this for a moment. Probably because it looked like Usagi was harboring some kind of crush on Seiya. Why would anyone make that remark if the person they're commenting to didn't look like they were having feelings? All the senshi saw it and were like "Usagi, remember you have Mamoru-san!" you don't just say that to just say that. You don't make comments like that unless something is there.
Yes! This! Spot on!
Everyone was reacting to this. Everyone believed Usagi was developing a crush on Seiya. And yet we, the viewers, can't see it? Come on, guys...[/quote]

Firstly, I find it very unfair to say that there must be something if others believe it. Anyone who was the object of gossip understand this. Especially in case of outers who have very little contact with Usagi and Seiya.

And I don't remember any of senshi implying that Usagi has romantic feelings for Seiya, only that she's leading him on.

And there is at least one senshi who didn't believe in Usagi's feelings for Seiya - namely Sailor Starfighter, aka Seiya Kou. Who in precencert scene stated that he knows his feelings are unrequited. Which Usagi never denied - which she certainly would if it wasn't true, wouldn't she?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   21st October 2012, 11:44 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:


Naturally Usagi was thinking of Mamoru. I still feel Usagi was conflicted, but I think the thing you're misunderstanding from me and Louchan is that I'm saying Usagi is in love with Seiya too when that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying she had a crush on Seiya, which confused her, but she was still in love with Mamoru. Being in love completely outweighs a crush. So that's the thing I think you're misunderstanding. No one said that Usagi was in love with Seiya. No one said her feelings for Seiya outweigh what she feels towards Mamoru. We're saying we've seen inklings of a crush towards Seiya. And you know what? We're not the only ones that saw it; other fans have too. PLUS the senshi in the show.

But why her letters to Mamoru don't betray this confusion and conflict? Why doesn't she try to sort out her feelings, if it were the case? And talk about with Seiya.

Because really if Usagi were crushing on Seiya, was fully aware of his feelings and she still kept him around without any explanation, while at the same time writing to Mamoru, calling him "my love" - she would really come off awfully. I don't see any reason for the supposed crush, except for making Usagi and her love to Mamoru look bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   21st October 2012, 12:07 pm

@Louchan wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I actually see Usagi and Seiya as totally incompatible in terms of personalities. Seiya is very competetive, challenge-oriented and hates losing. He/she also lacks flexibility and sense of boundaries. Usagi is very non-assertive and people-oriented. She loves and cares for everybody. Seiya would totally dominate in their relationship, doing what he believes to be the best, not taking under account Usagi's wishes. Usagi also likes usually peace and tranquility and Seiya needs challenges. He also needs frequent reinforcements to his self-esteem and it would be difficult for him to hold secondary place in the relationship.

Basically, after a few months she would be exhausted and he unfullfilled.
Funny how two people who are apparently so incompatible in your eyes can love spending so much time in each other's company like Seiya and Usagi did. Razz And I see no reason why that would change if they were in a romantic relationship.

I really don't see Usagi loving Seiya's company - she kinda enjoyed it, but rather lukewarmly. And they have not yet been in each other's company for long enough to really be bothered by this incompatibility. Though Usagi has shown slight irritation for Seiya's pushiness.

@Louchan wrote:
If Neptune and Uranus can be in a relationship while still having their duties and responsibilities, why can't Seiya and Usagi? Why would Seiya's friends and family stop her from choosing to be with Usagi? Why can't she still be loyal to princess Kakyuu and her home planet? Why can't she have a long distance relationship with Usagi while she's needed on her planet and then go be with her when she's off-duty during times of peace and stability? They've clearly showed that traveling between the two galaxies is not any problem.

For Neptune and Uranus their responsibilities and mission are actually another thing they have in common.

And yes, it would be possible for Usagi and Seiya to work their relationship (if Usagi were to be brainwashed) around their duties - yet the idea of their long distance realationship is interesting in view of the criticism Mamoru gets for leaving Usagi...

@Louchan wrote:
I don't know about you but I usually don't place my hand against the chest and lean up against someone who I'm not comfortable being held by. Yes, she felt a warmth similar to Mamoru's, but she also identified it as being different. But she didn't pull away from Seiya despite that realization, in fact, Seiya was the one who pulled away from her when Sailor Iron Mouse appered. And like Verdandi said, this is important because it shows Usagi IS capable of getting the feeling of warmth and safety (butterflies in her stomach perhaps?) from being held by someone other than Mamoru, and I do not think she'd get this from just any man putting his arms around her.

I don't know how looking at the photo you posted you can see the girl getting butterflies in her stomach. It's just confusion and therefore she didn't pull away.

@Louchan wrote:
Shielding her eyes instead of trying to catch a glimpse of Seiya's junk when she was about to lose her towel is proof a lack of attraction? xD No, dear... that's proof of modesty. Usagi is hardly a pervert, and I know I wouldn't try doing that to anyone I'm attracted to. That's just tasteless.

Well, I actually do agree with you that it would be tasteless, but the writers probably don't because they have Ami of all people interested, who also is hardly a pervert and has no crush on Seiya. And they could have Usagi display some interest, but then stick to modesty.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   21st October 2012, 12:38 pm

Okay. Super post time.

First -- I read Jupi's <3 articles. And this is what I have to say.

Quote :
"The two of them get along so well because they are really so very similar - both in personality and in the responsibilities of their alter egos."

You seem to be a strong supporter of Jupi's writings. Here are her exact words. Even she sees that Usagi's and Seiya's personalities line up beautifully.

So, why are you completely blind? You have to be pretty much the only fan in this fandom that's in the denial house, all because you hate Seiya. Jupi's not even in that house, and she's a diehard UsaMamo fan.

But wait! There's more!

Quote :
"There are various occasions when the two play as a comedy duo, such as when Seiya takes Usagi on an (unofficial) date to Ichi-no-Hashi Park where they spend the day munching on treats and gleefully observing zoo animals. They enjoy each other's company and their mannerisms are so similar and in tune with one another that they often end up responding as mirrored images of one another - animated, exaggerated and with the same child-like elation."

Now I realize this is talking about a friendship, but two things. 1) it's Jupi's opinion based off of her observations. Unlike you, she's not denying the chemistry that is between Usagi and Seiya. She carefully looks at the two together. She doesn't hate UsaSeiya shippers, but just reading this, she knows what she's written. She can see why people ship Usagi and Seiya.

Also, please show me, where Seiya hurt Usagi and forced her to go on a date with her. Please, do show this. Please do show where Seiya pushed her and where their personalities don't work at all and where she's really always truly upset when in Seiya's presence.

Quote :
"Quite frankly I do believe that these two would make a fantastic couple together. I am a devoted Usagi/Mamoru diehard but I also feel that Seiya and Usagi suit each other quite well and that they probably would have had a long lasting chance at happiness."

It only makes me wonder if you actually read, in depth, what Jupi wrote. Because while she is a diehard supporter, she can see Usagi and Seiya together if things were different. The evidence is the other quotes I pulled from her essays. Basically, she doesn't deny what's there, she just ships UsaMamo and not UsaSeiya.

Quote :
"Still, I can understand what it is that draws Seiya/Usagi shippers to the possibilities of a romantic relationship between these two."

You see?

Discussing the "date episode":

Quote :
"However, I feel that this scene reveals to the viewer that Usagi does differentiate Seiya from Mamoru, that there is no confliction in her heart or feelings that betrays her from being devoted to Mamoru."

This is true. I never deny anything in regard to UsaMamo or how she's devoted to Mamoru. I'm highlighting this part because your reasoning is that she is just confused and lonely and in a way cannot tell apart Seiya and Mamoru. Wrong.

I think what you're failing to realize is that Usagi is dynamic and complex. So are her relationships. So's her heart. Life is complicated, relationships are complicated. The show has so much depth to it that it's not even funny. That's what makes the show so great.

Quote :
"When Usagi and Seiya are forced apart from one another by their friends, it nearly destroys them. Seiya's anguish is clearly understandable. Usagi is not simply girl who he tried to win over - his intentions with her are not nearly so shallow. She is the person who has brought joy into his life, who he can be himself around, who touches him with her tender nature and unbiased affection. Usagi is the one who Seiya loves most."

Exactly. Seiya's not tactless, shallow, or anything like that. There's much more to Seiya and how she feels towards Usagi than you give her credit for. We still go around in circles to this day, because you just dig your heels in. You really want this thread locked, don't you?

Quote :
"The loss of Seiya is the catalyst in Usagi's world that is slowly being stripped away. After the departure of Mamoru, Usagi's own confidant, best friend and lover, Seiya was the one who was able to ease through that pain, soothe the ache that Usagi suffered with each day. With Seiya, Usagi was no longer alone."

And Seiya is doing some good for Seiya, as we have mentioned previously in this thread. Here is your evidence; even Jupi sees it. So, if anything, at least thank Seiya and do her the kindness of thinking of her in a better light, because she did this for Usagi.

Talking about the rooftop scene:

Quote :
"Despite this, I cannot fault Seiya at all for his imploring of Usagi. Seiya truly does love Usagi, there is no playful thrill at chasing a girl who has no interest in him, no longer any confusion that he may be drawn to her because she resembles his princess. Seiya loves Usagi and during his time with her he has only heard of this stranger named Chiba Mamoru who refuses to call or write to this girl who adores him. Seiya never had the opportunity to see the love between Usagi and Mamoru. To him, Mamoru is simply a boyfriend and Usagi is Seiya's best friend, the first person to bring light into his life since the destruction of his home planet and everyone that he held dear. Seiya was never aware of how much Mamoru loved Usagi, nor of their past history as both friends and lovers, nor of their bond as Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen. And truly there is nothing more painful than to watch the person you love be completely torn apart by a person who seems to have completely cast them aside. When you see someone you care about in such anguish over a person who seems to not care at all, it is almost primal to want to take that pain away."


Plus, I just read something recently (like a few minutes ago) off of a Sailor Moon tumblr about the rooftop scene (since you love it so much) and I thought it was completely spot on. Lemme quote it for you.

Quote :
"yeah that was definitely kind of… inappropriate, but i can see where seiya’s coming from! like okay, it’s basically a gentler version of ‘forget that douchebag, take me’, but from seiya’s pov mamoru is basically a giant bag of -censor- who couldn’t be assed to contact his worried-sick, lonely, sad girlfriend for like two months because he’s ~too busy~ for her. seiya hasn’t seen usagi together with mamoru, they don’t know about the whole epic eon-transcending star-crossed romance business they’ve got going on, there’s seriously no reason for them NOT to see mamoru as someone who just used her and dumped her without caring about her feelings.
also, i really like/appreciate the self-deprecating way in which they say it? it’s not ‘i’m better’, it’s ‘am i not good enough?’, which shows that even though they have no reason to UNDERSTAND them, they still respect usagi’s feelings for mamoru and realize that they’ll probably always be second place to him. but they’d rather make usagi happy as the replacement who could never match up than watch her keep suffering, alone."


Basically, at the end of all this, no one said Usagi is in love with Seiya. It's: "we all can see Usagi has an attraction to Seiya. And while she ultimately does pick Mamoru, this attraction has led to shipping and we can see why. But UsaMamo all the way!!!"

And now for some lovely images since you think no senshi in the series was implying that Usagi has a crush on Seiya. (you know, an attraction?)



I forgot, they're talking about how Usagi doesn't have a choice about cookies here.




Yeah, sounds like them cookies again.

Also: lemme make this nice and big for you.

A crush/attraction does not equal being in love with someone. A crush/attraction is not greater than being in love and it does not outweigh Usagi's love for Mamoru. NO ONE here has said that or implied this.

Here is more, too!

Limerence: is an involuntary state of mind which seems to result from a romantic attraction to another person combined with an overwhelming, obsessive need to have one's feelings reciprocated. Also known as 'puppy love'.

Romantic attraction: Romance is the expressive and pleasurable feeling from an emotional attraction towards another person.

^^^^^^ This is what's going on. Do either of those mention being in love? Mention that it is greater than love? No.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 9:24 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
http://isshou-ni.net/seiyausagi_l.html
Not much to say about this, Lady Tuxedo covered most of it beautifully.This essay says many of the exact things I'm saying here, such as the fact that Seiya was a very important person for Usagi, how much Seiya truly loves Usagi (rather than just having a "crush" like you often put it), and that they do make a great couple together. I can't say I agree with everything that's written there, but it was still a good read.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I don't obviously imply that Usagi just wants to rebel against H&Mi - only that she has no problem opposing to them and going with what she believes is right. And in anime such clash of views between them happens quite often. In fact, Usagi-Seiya situation here is very remniscent of Chibiusa-Hotaru of S. The fact is that Usagi has the full support of her nearest and dearest with regard to meeting Seiya.
I have to ask: So?
What point are you trying to make here? The fact of the matter still stands: Usagi wanted to see Seiya no matter what anyone said. It doesn't matter who supported it and who didn't, what matters here is how strongly Usagi wanted to despite what anyone told her.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Firstly, I find it very unfair to say that there must be something if others believe it. Anyone who was the object of gossip understand this. Especially in case of outers who have very little contact with Usagi and Seiya.
None of Usagi's friends would ever just have some baseless gossip about her though, especially not the outers. They all saw something in Usagi's behavior towards Seiya, and they all worried about it.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And I don't remember any of senshi implying that Usagi has romantic feelings for Seiya, only that she's leading him on.
Rei repeatedly told Usagi "remember that you have Mamoru", and so did Michiru at one point. Lady Tuxedo also showed some good examples of it. I really can't be bothered to go screenshot hunting for this.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And there is at least one senshi who didn't believe in Usagi's feelings for Seiya - namely Sailor Starfighter, aka Seiya Kou. Who in precencert scene stated that he knows his feelings are unrequited. Which Usagi never denied - which she certainly would if it wasn't true, wouldn't she?
Yes, Seiya's love for Usagi was unrequited. Usagi was never in love with Seiya, the only one she harbors such feelings for is Mamoru, no one here has claimed anything different. HOWEVER, this does not exclude the possibility of a crush, which I and Lady Tuxedo have tried to explain to you for some time now.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
But
why her letters to Mamoru don't betray this confusion and conflict? Why
doesn't she try to sort out her feelings, if it were the case? And talk
about with Seiya.

Because really if Usagi were crushing on
Seiya, was fully aware of his feelings and she still kept him around
without any explanation, while at the same time writing to Mamoru,
calling him "my love" - she would really come off awfully.
You need to keep in mind what the main purpose of those "letters" are. They're episode previews. Like in episode 195, Usagi didn't really sit down and write "Galaxia just appeared! Help me, Mamo-chan!" while Kakyuu was getting killed. I think you're taking them a bit too seriously. And I do think Usagi was in struggle and confusion about her attraction towards Seiya and her love and loyalty towards Mamoru. But like we're repeating over and over again in this thread, it never got to any point where the relationship between Usagi and Mamoru was at any risk. Seiya never stood any chance against Mamoru in Usagi's heart.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I don't see
any reason for the supposed crush, except for making Usagi and her love
to Mamoru look bad.
No reason for it in a storytelling point of view you mean? Well, that's purely a matter of opinion. I think Seiya's love for Usagi and Usagi's crush on Seiya was an excellent way for the animators to provide some romantic drama to the season while Mamoru was gone. Who doesn't love a good story about forbidden and unrequited love? I know I do. And I never thought it made Usagi look bad or her love for Mamoru seem any weaker.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I
really don't see Usagi loving Seiya's company - she kinda enjoyed it,
but rather lukewarmly. And they have not yet been in each other's
company for long enough to really be bothered by this incompatibility.
Though Usagi has shown slight irritation for Seiya's pushiness.
We've been through this before. Usagi expressed loving Seiya just like she loves all her other friends, meaning Seiya is just as important as them. Usagi was crushed whenever she was not allowed to be with Seiya, at one point she was locked up in her room while listening to him sing on her CD player. Usagi openly said that it was because of Seiya that she was able to hang in there throughout the season. No matter how much you twist and turn it, this isn't a "lukewarm" friendship as you put it. And again, Usagi never showed irritation towards Seiya outside of comedic scenes. This "incompatibility" as you call it exists nowhere in the show, it's all created in your mind simply because you hate this couple so much and you wanna twist every angle of it into something as negative as possible.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
For Neptune and Uranus their responsibilities and mission are actually another thing they have in common.

And yes, it would be possible for Usagi and Seiya to work their relationship (if Usagi were to be brainwashed)
around their duties - yet the idea of their long distance realationship
is interesting in view of the criticism Mamoru gets for leaving
Usagi...
... Do you know what a long distance relationship is? It's a relationship... that's between two people far away from each other. How is this in any way comparable to a break up?

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I don't know how looking at the photo you posted you
can see the girl getting butterflies in her stomach. It's just confusion
and therefore she didn't pull away.
So you're saying Usagi was so confused that she literally just froze and couldn't move? Lol, okay. Laughing

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Well, I actually do agree with you that
it would be tasteless, but the writers probably don't because they have
Ami of all people interested, who also is hardly a pervert and has no
crush on Seiya. And they could have Usagi display some interest, but
then stick to modesty.
NO ONE was trying to catch a glimpse of Seiya's junk here. Good god. Aside from Usagi shielding her eyes they were all just staring in shock, both at what was happening and at the fact that Seiya was in Usagi's house. This has NOTHING to do with attraction or interest and I honestly can't believe a serious discussion of this scene even needs to exist.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 12:40 pm

@Louchan wrote:
I have to ask: So?
What point are you trying to make here? The fact of the matter still stands: Usagi wanted to see Seiya no matter what anyone said. It doesn't matter who supported it and who didn't, what matters here is how strongly Usagi wanted to despite what anyone told her.

The fact is that Usagi as usual was in opposition to H&Mi and she had her friends support here.

@Louchan wrote:
None of Usagi's friends would ever just have some baseless gossip about her though, especially not the outers. They all saw something in Usagi's behavior towards Seiya, and they all worried about it.

How much Usagi with Seiya did the outers see?

@Louchan wrote:
And I don't remember any of senshi implying that Usagi has romantic feelings for Seiya, only that she's leading him on.
Rei repeatedly told Usagi "remember that you have Mamoru" [/quote]

How many "repeatedly"? Cause I remember two times - on Lady Tuxedo's picture and earlier during her fortune teller job- where Usagi's assuring that it's just friendship with Seiya completely convinces Rei, make her calm and fully supportive of Usagi meeting Seiya.

Which is essential - how what others think shall be more important than Usagi's own words?

And how Rei's "you have no choice" supports crush theory? if Usagi was really conflicted, surely she would have to make a choice?


@Louchan wrote:
And there is at least one senshi who didn't believe in Usagi's feelings for Seiya - namely Sailor Starfighter, aka Seiya Kou. Who in precencert scene stated that he knows his feelings are unrequited. Which Usagi never denied - which she certainly would if it wasn't true, wouldn't she?
Yes, Seiya's love for Usagi was unrequited. Usagi was never in love with Seiya, the only one she harbors such feelings for is Mamoru, no one here has claimed anything different. HOWEVER, this does not exclude the possibility of a crush, which I and Lady Tuxedo have tried to explain to you for some time now.[/quote]


So why didn't she tell about this crush during their preconcert talk?


@Louchan wrote:
,
You need to keep in mind what the main purpose of those "letters" are. They're episode previews. Like in episode 195, Usagi didn't really sit down and write "Galaxia just appeared! Help me, Mamo-chan!" while Kakyuu was getting killed. I think you're taking them a bit too seriously.

So she never wrote these letters for Mamoru?

@Louchan wrote:
And I never thought it made Usagi look bad or her love for Mamoru seem any weaker.
I didn't also, because it was obvious for me there was no crush on Seiya. If it were - how falling for other guy, first one who hits on a person, once her fiance is away, would not mean her love for him was not quite strong? Crush may not outweight love, but surely detracts from it?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 12:42 pm

Hey guys, I just wanted to pop in with a friendly reminder that everyone here has their own opinions. To argue for arguments sake is kind of pointless and it seems everyone in this thread has their own opinion and are sticking with it.

While, I would like this thread to stay open for other members to contribute, I don't want people to be scared off by others nit picking on posts. If it seems like members are posting just to continue the argument and continues this way without letting others to voice their opinions in a fun matter, then this thread will be locked.

If this thread is upsetting you or you are having a serious problem, please contact either Lady Tuxedo, this section's moderator, or me so we can discuss it privately.

Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 12:58 pm

Thank you, BritBrit <3

Without further ado, I am officially withdrawing myself from this thread (for real). As Brit mentioned, if you have any problems or concerns, please feel free to shoot either of us a PM and we can discuss it quickly and privately.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 1:22 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
The fact is that Usagi as usual was in opposition to H&Mi and she had her friends support here.
Which means nothing in light of what's important.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
How much Usagi with Seiya did the outers see?
Who knows? Enough for them to worry, that's for sure.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
How many "repeatedly"? Cause I remember two times - on Lady Tuxedo's picture and earlier during her fortune teller job- where Usagi's assuring that it's just friendship with Seiya completely convinces Rei, make her calm and fully supportive of Usagi meeting Seiya.

Which is essential - how what others think shall be more important than Usagi's own words?
From the top of my head, I remember Rei telling Usagi that during her baseball training too. There might be more instances but like I said I'm not gonna go looking for them. I think three times, and possibly more, count well enough as "repeatedly" though. And if Usagi's words during the fortune telling scene completely convinced Rei like you say she wouldn't have felt the need to remind Usagi AGAIN during the scene Lady Tuxedo showed which was right before the final concert.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And how Rei's "you have no choice" supports crush theory? if Usagi was really conflicted, surely she would have to make a choice?
If it was obvious that Usagi didn't have a choice then Rei wouldn't have felt the need to tell her that, because that would just be stating something Usagi should already know and thus wouldn't be helpful as either advice or encouragement.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
So why didn't she tell about this crush during their preconcert talk?
Why should she have? It would have resulted in nothing but making both of them feel worse.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
So she never wrote these letters for Mamoru?
I never said that. Of course she did, we saw her write letters during actual episodes of the season. But the episode previews weren't meant to be taken as what was literally written in Usagi's letters, they were meant for us, the viewers.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I didn't also, because it was obvious for me there was no crush on Seiya. If it were - how falling for other guy, first one who hits on a person, once her fiance is away, would not mean her love for him was not quite strong? Crush may not outweight love, but surely detracts from it?
No, I don't think so. Usagi had a crush on Haruka in the manga, even dreaming about being kissed by her, and that was while Mamoru was still around and everything. Things like that can happen, it's just more likely to happen in a scenario were the person you're in a relationship with (in this case, Mamoru) is currently away. You can't control your own feelings and who you feel attracted to.

Small Lady wrote:
Hey guys, I just wanted to pop in with a friendly
reminder that everyone here has their own opinions. To argue for
arguments sake is kind of pointless and it seems everyone in this thread
has their own opinion and are sticking with it.

While, I would
like this thread to stay open for other members to contribute, I don't
want people to be scared off by others nit picking on posts. If it seems
like members are posting just to continue the argument and continues
this way without letting others to voice their opinions in a fun matter,
then this thread will be locked.

If this thread is upsetting
you or you are having a serious problem, please contact either Lady
Tuxedo, this section's moderator, or me so we can discuss it privately.

Thanks!

-Small Lady
Hello, Small Lady! I would like to ask if anything in particular seems to be a problem here? Because as far as I can see this is just an ongoing debate, which is what this thread is for, correct? This is what I'm used to seeing while debating at other forums and such, so I'm not sure if I'm missing out on anything, like this might not be how things usually work here? (I'm still quite new after all...) People have varying opinions in here, as to be expected, and I think everyone realizes this, and that's why we tackle them back and forth. As for arguing for argument's sake, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. While there has been some going around in circles, I think we're all trying to move away from that as best as we can while still continuing the debate. Is there any part in particular that we should let up on?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 2:00 pm

The reason why Brit made that post is because there is definite tension in this thread. Many people have pulled out of this topic because its frustrating and just going around and around in circles. In other words, no one wants to really post here anymore or may feel afraid to because their posts will get nit-picked, it'll go in circles, or they'll just get overall frustrated. You'll notice it's pretty much just you and Moonlight Lady now since the debate went right back to its circles.

There is definitely arguing going on to argue, for example potential trolling that is going on (i.e. not listening, arguing to argue, arguing opinions, etc.).

What we are hoping for is: less nit-picking, accepting/understanding points of view, and less circles. We don't want people feeling like "lol omg I had to unfollowed that thread forever ago it got ridiculous" or "they nit-pick almost every sentence of their posts Sad no thanks."

It's just meant to be for fun Very Happy not, well, all this. I hope that answers your questions!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 2:18 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
The reason why Brit made that post is because there is definite tension in this thread. Many people have pulled out of this topic because its frustrating and just going around and around in circles. In other words, no one wants to really post here anymore or may feel afraid to because their posts will get nit-picked, it'll go in circles, or they'll just get overall frustrated. You'll notice it's pretty much just you and Moonlight Lady now since the debate went right back to its circles.

There is definitely arguing going on to argue, for example potential trolling that is going on (i.e. not listening, arguing to argue, arguing opinions, etc.).

What we are hoping for is: less nit-picking, accepting/understanding points of view, and less circles. We don't want people feeling like "lol omg I had to unfollowed that thread forever ago it got ridiculous" or "they nit-pick almost every sentence of their posts Sad no thanks."

It's just meant to be for fun Very Happy not, well, all this. I hope that answers your questions!

-Lady Tuxedo
Theories and Debates Mod.
I have to respectfully disagree with the "arguing to argue" point, I personally feel I'm just going through the things I have opinions on, in other words, what I disagree on, and it just happens to be that me and Moonlight Lady disagree on... pretty much everything. Razz I'm not disagreeing with everything she brings up just for the sake of being against her. As for the nit-picking, I didn't realize this was annoying for people... this is how I usually debate, I split posts up and go through them bit by bit. But all that aside, I do not wish to make this thread unpleasant in any way. I have fun with this kind of debating, but I don't want to ruin things for others, and I didn't realize I was. So if you want me to back off this debate in any sort of way then I of course will.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   22nd October 2012, 2:21 pm

There's nothing wrong with the way you debate, its definitely a legitimate way of doing so. But maybe it was getting overwhelming when its just a couple of members going back and forth?

Don't worry no one is in trouble or anything. We just didn't want this thread to get out of hand or anything. I think you guys have been doing a good job debating diplomatically. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   23rd October 2012, 8:12 am

i wish i could put more into this debate...unfortunately, i haven't completely seen Stars, only read the manga.

though i would like to point out Louchan is right! Usagi did seem to have a vague crush on Haruka. she did indeed dream of Haruka kissing her as a woman. and Usagi found herself wondering if how she interracted with Haruka would count as cheating. the pages in question are below!!





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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th October 2012, 6:42 am

Small Lady wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the way you debate, its definitely a legitimate way of doing so. But maybe it was getting overwhelming when its just a couple of members going back and forth?

Don't worry no one is in trouble or anything. We just didn't want this thread to get out of hand or anything. I think you guys have been doing a good job debating diplomatically. Smile
Mm, I can see what you mean, Small Lady. It's really just been going back and forth between me and Moonlight Lady for the most part lately. I'll try toning things down a bit.


So, uh... what could put some new air into this debate again, hmm... we've gone through a lot about Seiya and her actions, as well as Usagi's feelings towards Seiya, how about some Mamoru?
I think I've made it very clear that I highly dislike Mamoru in the anime. xD I mean, there have been times I enjoyed his character, such as in the R movie or during the more comedic scenes of him as Tuxedo Mask, but overall... as Mamoru Chiba... I have a hard time standing him. I do know most people I've met here so far do support him with Usagi in the anime, but I personally don't really enjoy their relationship. I feel that Usagi is the kind of person who needs a lot of affection and reminder of how she's loved, hence her clinginess, and I feel like Mamoru fails at giving her this most of the time, which I feel just increases her clinginess, tendency to get jealous, and occasional feeling of not being good enough. And I don't think Usagi's childish and playful nature really fits with how serious Mamoru is most of the time. Yes, Mamoru's maturity has always been attractive in Usagi's eyes, we know this, but it still doesn't make them seems like a compatible couple in my eyes.
Sooo... what are your thoughts on this? Are Usagi and Mamoru the perfect couple even in the anime? Or do some parts just not... click very well? LET THE DISCUSSION BEGIN!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th October 2012, 12:23 pm

i certainly agree with that! in the anime, mamoru was always too...cold. the any time he seemed to show that he cared for her was when she was about to die, or already dead. the main case that pops into mind right now is the R movie, Promise of the Rose.

he was remarkaly good in that movie with only one spot that ticks me ooff.... HE WOULDN'T FLIPPING KISS HER! and he ran off when he realized her friends were there! i think he should have stayed there and just done nothing. or tapped Usagi and pointed meaningfully at the shelf of flowers. but not just...abandon her and leave her open to a mean prank from her friends >.<

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th October 2012, 4:04 pm

@Louchan wrote:
Small Lady wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the way you debate, its definitely a legitimate way of doing so. But maybe it was getting overwhelming when its just a couple of members going back and forth?

Don't worry no one is in trouble or anything. We just didn't want this thread to get out of hand or anything. I think you guys have been doing a good job debating diplomatically. Smile
Mm, I can see what you mean, Small Lady. It's really just been going back and forth between me and Moonlight Lady for the most part lately. I'll try toning things down a bit.


So, uh... what could put some new air into this debate again, hmm... we've gone through a lot about Seiya and her actions, as well as Usagi's feelings towards Seiya, how about some Mamoru?
I think I've made it very clear that I highly dislike Mamoru in the anime. xD I mean, there have been times I enjoyed his character, such as in the R movie or during the more comedic scenes of him as Tuxedo Mask, but overall... as Mamoru Chiba... I have a hard time standing him. I do know most people I've met here so far do support him with Usagi in the anime, but I personally don't really enjoy their relationship. I feel that Usagi is the kind of person who needs a lot of affection and reminder of how she's loved, hence her clinginess, and I feel like Mamoru fails at giving her this most of the time, which I feel just increases her clinginess, tendency to get jealous, and occasional feeling of not being good enough. And I don't think Usagi's childish and playful nature really fits with how serious Mamoru is most of the time. Yes, Mamoru's maturity has always been attractive in Usagi's eyes, we know this, but it still doesn't make them seems like a compatible couple in my eyes.
Sooo... what are your thoughts on this? Are Usagi and Mamoru the perfect couple even in the anime? Or do some parts just not... click very well? LET THE DISCUSSION BEGIN!

I would have to disagree with you Louchan I think Mamoru and Usagi are compatible I dont say that because I love them as a couple but because I've seen in quite some episodes where Mamoru shows his feelings at times it can seem like he's comes off like a jerk but I believe it's becuase he's reserve with his feeling's.

Look at this pics and tell me he's not being romantic and showing his feelings





You cant tell me Mamoru isn't romantic or there not compatible Wink I have more pictures where he shows his romantic side but my opinion is Mamoru keeps his emotions to himself and shows them when he's alone with Usagi and I also believe they kiss off Cameras Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   24th October 2012, 7:58 pm

I think the problem with anime Mamoru is it feels that those moments are so far and few inbetween. While, I enjoy watching seiya and usagi interact with each other. They are cute. Usagi just seems annoyed with him a lot of the time (at least, thats how she act outwardly, it kinda reminds me of the way mamoru acted with usagi in the beginning AND OMG I WONDER IF THATS SUPPOSE DTO MEAN ANYTHING... my thoughts just got derailed. o.o...

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th October 2012, 4:29 am

@Crystalsetsuna wrote:
i certainly agree with that! in the anime, mamoru was always too...cold. the any time he seemed to show that he cared for her was when she was about to die, or already dead. the main case that pops into mind right now is the R movie, Promise of the Rose.

he was remarkaly good in that movie with only one spot that ticks me ooff.... HE WOULDN'T FLIPPING KISS HER! and he ran off when he realized her friends were there! i think he should have stayed there and just done nothing. or tapped Usagi and pointed meaningfully at the shelf of flowers. but not just...abandon her and leave her open to a mean prank from her friends >.<
Haha, yeah... xD That scene doesn't bother me THAT much though because I still have my "comedic scenes should never be taken too seriously" policy, but yeah, it... really highlights that not only are the animators fully aware of Mamoru's inability (or at least reluctance) to show Usagi affection in public, they embrace it as one of his main character traits, which... I find rather unwise. Again, I must mention how much I prefer Mamoru's manga version. Now that's the romantic prince who should be by Usagi's side! (And I can't wait to see him in 2013. <3)

SerenaChiba630 wrote:
I
would have to disagree with you Louchan I think Mamoru and Usagi are
compatible I dont say that because I love them as a couple but because
I've seen in quite some episodes where Mamoru shows his feelings at
times it can seem like he's comes off like a jerk but I believe it's
becuase he's reserve with his feeling's.

Look at this pics and tell me he's not being romantic and showing his feelings

---

You cant tell me Mamoru isn't romantic or there not compatible Wink
I have more pictures where he shows his romantic side but my opinion is
Mamoru keeps his emotions to himself and shows them when he's alone
with Usagi and I also believe they kiss off Cameras Very Happy
Oh, I'm absolutely not denying that Mamoru does show his feelings and treat Usagi with affection from time to time. I just don't believe he does it nearly as much as he should. One of the things that's always first to pop into my mind when I think about the differences between the anime and the manga is that the anime focused a lot more on the friendship between the girls while the manga focused a lot on the romance between Mamoru and Usagi. Overall I do like the anime for this, but unfortunately this made Mamoru's character fall WAY too much into the shadows. After the first two seasons Mamoru becomes a side character, and what's worse, a comedic relief character. Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved when they made his appearances as Tuxedo Mask comedic, it was freaking hilarious every time. But unfortunately I think this makes it difficult to take him seriously as a whole. He could be gone for many episodes, then show up briefly to add some comedy such as with Usagi and Chibiusa bickering over him or just having Usagi being clingy while he looks mildly embarrassed about it, and then they'd throw in a few scenes that are supposed to be romantic, but... they're just way too few and usually too weak. I just can't feel this miracle romance between them as I know I should.

In the manga (as far as I've read), this is one of my favorite scenes between the two of them:


Now this is super romantic for me. I love the sudden hug, I love how Mamoru is struggling with feeling like Usagi is on a different level than him (unlike the anime which does the opposite, having Usagi struggle with feeling like she isn't good enough for Mamoru), I just... love this kind of spontaneous showing of affection. This is what I'm missing from Mamoru in the anime, and what I believe Usagi needs.

Small Lady wrote:
I think the problem with anime Mamoru is it feels
that those moments are so far and few inbetween. While, I enjoy watching
seiya and usagi interact with each other. They are cute. Usagi just
seems annoyed with him a lot of the time (at least, thats how she act
outwardly, it kinda reminds me of the way mamoru acted with usagi in the
beginning AND OMG I WONDER IF THATS SUPPOSE DTO MEAN ANYTHING... my
thoughts just got derailed. o.o...
I know, right? xD I mean, it's actually rather odd... the animators spent SO much time in Stars just showing Usagi and Seiya interacting with each other, doing stuff together, even going on a date to the amusement park. And yet through all 4 seasons we had earlier we never came anywhere close to having this many scenes of this sort between Usagi and Mamoru, who are supposed to be the main couple of the show! I dunno, you can all accuse me for having my fangirl goggles on too tightly when I say this, but I firmly believe the animators had a personal favorite pairing in this show, and it wasn't Mamoru and Usagi.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th October 2012, 7:01 am

XD that'd be a very intresting twist to the debate! the animators deciding it's Seiusa! and not Mamusa! Razz

i don't distinctly remember that many very romantic scenes in the anime...though the screen shots are nice, they are certainly not enough.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th October 2012, 9:57 am

I think the thing about the anime though, is that there is a less focus on their relationship at times and I think the manga was more focused on their relationship. The reason he seems cold to Usagi in public and shows no affection is that I think we tend to forget that Japanese culture feels different about PDA than we do, and I would say its probably even more different in the early 90s than now. Its more of a no-no thing, hence all the scenes where Mamoru seems awkward to be kissing Usagi in public, like in the R movie. I think also a lot ofthe intimate scenes in the manga that we see are in private, hence why we get a lot of intimate scenes in the manga. When we see them together outside in public, its just occasional kisses on the cheek (and if i remember correctly its usually Usagi prompting those).

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th October 2012, 12:41 pm

Yes - and actually IMO there is more difference between Usagi in manga and anime than Mamorus in both versions.

Ending of Usagi with Seiya would be plainly bad writing, after all the development of Mamoru with Usagi. And yes, it requires shipping goggles to see the date in the amusement park (where Usagi thinks about Mamoru's silence) as more than all the places and occasions Mamoru takes them.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime Mamoru or Seiya?   25th October 2012, 1:28 pm

SerenaChiba630 wrote:
I
would have to disagree with you Louchan I think Mamoru and Usagi are
compatible I dont say that because I love them as a couple but because
I've seen in quite some episodes where Mamoru shows his feelings at
times it can seem like he's comes off like a jerk but I believe it's
becuase he's reserve with his feeling's.

Look at this pics and tell me he's not being romantic and showing his feelings

---

You cant tell me Mamoru isn't romantic or there not compatible Wink
I have more pictures where he shows his romantic side but my opinion is
Mamoru keeps his emotions to himself and shows them when he's alone
with Usagi and I also believe they kiss off Cameras Very Happy

Oh, I'm absolutely not denying that Mamoru does show his feelings and treat Usagi with affection from time to time. I just don't believe he does it nearly as much as he should. One of the things that's always first to pop into my mind when I think about the differences between the anime and the manga is that the anime focused a lot more on the friendship between the girls while the manga focused a lot on the romance between Mamoru and Usagi. Overall I do like the anime for this, but unfortunately this made Mamoru's character fall WAY too much into the shadows. After the first two seasons Mamoru becomes a side character, and what's worse, a comedic relief character. Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved when they made his appearances as Tuxedo Mask comedic, it was freaking hilarious every time. But unfortunately I think this makes it difficult to take him seriously as a whole. He could be gone for many episodes, then show up briefly to add some comedy such as with Usagi and Chibiusa bickering over him or just having Usagi being clingy while he looks mildly embarrassed about it, and then they'd throw in a few scenes that are supposed to be romantic, but... they're just way too few and usually too weak. I just can't feel this miracle romance between them as I know I should.

In the manga (as far as I've read), this is one of my favorite scenes between the two of them:


Now this is super romantic for me. I love the sudden hug, I love how Mamoru is struggling with feeling like Usagi is on a different level than him (unlike the anime which does the opposite, having Usagi struggle with feeling like she isn't good enough for Mamoru), I just... love this kind of spontaneous showing of affection. This is what I'm missing from Mamoru in the anime, and what I believe Usagi needs.

Oh I agree with you on that the Anime focused more on Usagi's friendhip but we have to remember Sailor Moon was Aim for young audience I personaly think the Animators thought it was inappropriate for little kids to see romantic scenes between Usagi and Mamoru so they decide to squeeze some but not alot because the 90s was a different period of time parents weren't as open as they are now and if they saw there kids watching kissing scenes between Usagi and Mamoru they would think it was a corrupted show .

That's what I think I maybe wrong though but I also heard that the Writers didn't like Mamoru's character so they try to cut him off. Im not sure why though. I know he came off as a jerk at first but I just love His character. I really love the fighting scenes between him and Usagi they were hilarious or like you said when he was Tuxedo Mask to but unfornuately the writers made Mamoru and very dislikable character Sad

I also agree with what Small Lady said Japanese culture is very different I don't think they believe in the word Romantic. If you think about it little kids weren't going to read the Manga, the manga would be aim for Teenagers so maybe thats why they made it more romantic.I really though the new anime is more like the manga Im hoping they dont change anything it would suck if they did Sad

I like that picture alot its soo cute how Mamoru shows doesn't let her go he's scared she will disappear aww

I really like these two

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