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 Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?

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PostSubject: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 12:51 am

I hope this thread won't become too heated or controversial and I hope it won't ruffle too many people's feathers but it's a topic that isn't really discussed much in Sailor Moon fandom circles very much and it's one that's been concerning me lately about the original anime version. As a gay man who is also a Sailor Moon fan, I've always appreciated the inclusion of openly gay and lesbian characters in the series which is something of a milestone itself for a children's cartoon in the mid-90s. But while I'll always love their inclusion in the series, when you stop and think about it, the anime version of Sailor Moon's portrayal of homosexuality frankly seems rather outdated and stereotypical compared to today. Like it seems like all the gay men in the series are either evil or conform to outdated stereotypes of gay men. For gay villains, you had Zoicite and Kunzite, Fisheye, and I think a reasonable case could be made that Fiore was gay or at least "Mamorusexual" I guess you could call it.

While Fisheye and Fiore eventually reform their ways and become good, it was only so that they would end up fighting to protect the "purer" heterosexual relationship of Usagi and Mamoru, yet Usagi's continuous pursuit of Mamoru even after she found out he was engaged in PGSM is portrayed as a positive virtue yet giving up the one you love is a virtue for gay characters. And of course their conversion to defenders of heterosexualty, er, justice, always ends up leading the gay characters to their deaths in the end, which is an example of the Bury Your Gays trope (check TV Tropes for more info), which is something that happens to gay characters in media a lot for some reason.

In comparison, all the lesbian characters in the series are portrayed as the good guys and on the side of justice, but even in their case, Haruka and Michiru are always portrayed as the morally ambigious Sailor Soldiers while the heterosexual Inners are always the pure and innocent defenders of justice who's actions you know to never question. While you could argue that this is merely keeping in line with the series' girl power kicks bad guys' butts theme, you could also say that this portrayal of gays and lesbians is reinforcing the popular belief that gay men are icky and gross and immoral but lesbians are cool and sexy. I think the only two good characters that you could argue were gay were those costume designers in that filler in episode of Supers but even with them, they never come out directly and say they're gay and it's only assumed that they are because they're so stereotypical and the dub made them brothers which made it more suspicious.

Homophobia also seems to rear its ugly head in other ways in the Sailor Moon anime. While Usagi will tell Seiya and the Starlights frequently how much Haruka and Michiru mean to her, she always seems to dance around the issue of their sexuality. Like in one episode, she kept hinting that Haruka doesn't care for men but she wouldn't just come out and say Haruka was a lesbian for some reason. Then there was that episode in S where the Inners thought Makoto was chasing after girls and the Inners were freaking out and trying to convince Makoto that there's still plenty of hot guys out there for her. Not only is this not really a supportive attitude for the Inners to have for their friend, it's also reinforcing the belief that homosexuality is something you choose to do. Even if Makoto had "decided" to go after women, would that make her any less of an equal friend to the Inners and why should that change their friendship any to make them so concerned? Perhaps the most telling moment is a scene in the R movie where Ami suggests the possibility that Mamoru could be "popular with men" to which Minako responds by calling Ami a pervert for merely suggesting it. Usagi and the other Inners chase after boys all the time even when Usagi already has a boyfriend and yet they're never called perverts for chasing after their heterosexual fantasies.

The manga in comparison is tremendously more positive in its portrayal of homosexuality by not having any evil gays but even Naoko Takeuchi's complaint about the Starlights' gender bending in the anime version could be considered transphobic to some degree. I don't think she was trying to be intentionally bigoted, but Takeuchi's suggestion that it's wrong for the Starlights to switch genders because only women can be Sailor Soldiers seems to imply she thinks only naturally born women are "real" women and mtF transgendered women are not "real" women. This is not to say I hate Sailor Moon or Naoko Takeuchi or anything like that. In fact, I'm still very much obsessed with it and I recognize that as a 90s series, Sailor Moon is a product of its time and culture, and I really appreciate it for taking the risks it did take with gay and lesbian characters. I also feel lucky that the Sailor Moon fandom always seems to be really supportive of sexual diversity and I hope I haven't offended anyone or seem like I'm thinking too hard about this, but I feel like Toei could have been more positive and diverse in their portrayal of gay men and been more sensitive to outdated stereotypes.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 1:14 am

Here's my rebuttal~ hope I'm not being rude but I think you might be oversimplifying things.

I'm pretty sure that Usagi says point-blank during the series that she thinks heterosexual relationships seem more natural to her. But I don't think she has any problem with homosexual relationships...? But I wouldn't take that to be a reflection on the entire anime series.

Other things to note:

Fisheye's homosexuality was the trigger to allow the Amazon Trio to gain human dreams in the Sailor Moon anime. Without his attraction to men, he would have never learnt anything from Mamoru, and Hawk's Eye and Tiger's Eye didn't seem anywhere near understanding what true humanity is.

Zoisite and Kunzite never seemed to be a stereotype to me. They simply act like the many other villains in Sailor Moon and happen to be in a homosexual relationship. The bizarre thing is that we sort of have to admit Zoisite was a bit of a nasty piece of work, an underhanded crafty little sneak who caused alot of suffering. Yet he was granted his wish to die beautifully? Why? We can't really say. But we can speculate that perhaps its because he had some love in his heart for Kunzite?

Japan is also a different culture from the West. Minako was most likely calling Ami a pervert because she thought Ami was thinking of Mamoru in a way that would be incredibly inappropriate as Ami is a dear friend of Mamoru's girlfriend. Sexuality is a touchy subject in Japan, as it is in many Asian countries. It is viewed as something personal. Japan actually historically has more problems with lesbians than it does with gay men. The more impressive thing about Sailor Moon is the "normalisation" of the characters of Haruka and Michiru rather than the appearance of gay men.

Ami was perfectly comfortable with the possibility that Makoto might be a lesbian. Though its highly unlikely she actually was, likely Makoto was more attracted to Haruka's masculinity, so Makoto could therefore assert her own femininity which she often felt she could not. Minako, Rei and Usagi in the anime are all strong heterosexual characters, they simply don't always grasp the fact of why Makoto might pick another women over a man. This doesn't necessarily mean that they have a particular problem with it. They're just not understanding and therefore trying to force their own beliefs on Makoto. This is typical human behaviour but does not, I believe reflect the anime.

The series does not deal with sexuality as one of its main themes. The series showcases many different kinds of love throughout its run. The strongest argument I would say would be with Vilyui, a woman who is unable to understand love and all the characters pity her above anything. Beryl meanwhile, a woman with a jealous love was punished harshly and without forgiveness.

I also believe that Haruka and Michiru were portrayed as "adults" in contrast to the "little girls" that make up the Guardian Soldiers. Rather than heterosexuals vs. homosexuals.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 1:17 am

You pretty much already solved everything within a sentence or two within your last paragraph. Remember, this is was made in 1992 - 1997 where being gay was still incredibly taboo and a lot harder than it is now.

Also, this show is for young girls, not gay men. It's not catered towards us at all, so it makes sense they're going to get sweeped under the rug. The show is lucky enough to even have gay characters since Zoisite and Kunzite were not gay in the original manga. I don't feel as though it was showing them being gay was evil. For me, I thought it was showing something good. They were evil characters who loved each other more than anything in the world. It shows to me that despite that people think being gay is sinful/evil, our love is still true and beautiful.

The lesbian couples are shown as good guys because the show is about female empowerment. Haruka and Michiru lived on the dirtier side of being a Sailor Senshi, but I feel as though that's their empowerment. Being a lesbian couple is definitely different from the rest of the couples in Sailor Moon and it shows their love strong. Their love was always true and would do anything for each other, no matter who got in the way.

Back in that time, being gay was perversion and they were freaked out that their friend is now chasing women. Makoto is definitely a heterosexual character and it's saying that you don't have to go after women just because you're having a hard time with men. They were showing that it's not a choice because she never chased after women. Besides, Makoto looked up to Haruka as a strong inspirational woman, even if she is a lesbian. That's a very strong statement to show during that time for a straight woman to look up to a homosexual woman as a role model.

On the transphobia issue, I don't see it as transphobic at all. In her design of the Sailor Senshi, they were all powerful biological women. This goes back to the female empowerment statement. As said, it's outdated and trans issues are so much deeper in the dark in that time just the same as it is now.

Just sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill. c:

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 1:20 am

I think Miki has a point when it comes to culture too... Japan's culture and how they deal with sexuality in everyday life is WAY different than how it is here in western society. Also, the Usagi dancing around the subject...that could just be due to translation between Japanese to English, etc.


Also I agree with Lust about making a mountain out of a molehill.



Just my two cents.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 5:53 am

Also just throwing this out there, and I know Naoko would hate if I say this, but our introduction to Haruka and Michiru isn't so awesome in the manga either. I mean they were basically playing "the flirt game" with Usagi and Mamoru, which I think was not....one of there best moments.

I think you made some good points, although I don't necessarily think that the anime was being homophobic on purpose. I actually think that they did some things to ESCALATE homosexual relationships. I mean, Kunzite and Zoisite may be "evil gays" in Sailor Moon Classic, but they really never redeemed themselves in the name of Usagi and Mamoru's relationship. They died basically together, and loved each other to the end of the season, even in the afterlife.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 6:47 am

I just wanna add,

I don't think either the manga or anime meant to be homophobic in any point and I will explain myself...

I write a lot of stories and sometimes I get to think of who will read these stories, which public will be interested in what I write. Most of my writings are meant to be read by open-minded older teens or adults so most of the time I don't have a problem with homosexuality, violence or sexuality in any kind of way.

It also takes a lot of guts to bring in your writings subjects that may have some people judge you in any way but I mostly think that when your series aim an in between public thought... It is difficult to judge what will be acceptable or not and most of it is not really about the education we want to give to our kids but because of the PG rating that is different in different countries.

Sailor Moon is in first place a really sweet story that grew internationally and they made it available to children to read and watch and I suppose if they aimed international, they wanted to be accepted everywhere.

I think they were still able to bring and tell the public how love has no gender preference after all and if they were able to do that well... It really was a success. And that's what makes me believe the primary idea of adding some homosexuality in Sailor Moon was truly there.

I wonder with the new anime, if they aim the older public that grew with the original version, if they will be more open with Haruka-Michiru relationship, Zoisite-Kunzite relationship for example. We still must know that probably a new public will rediscover Sailor Moon through these new series and maybe it won't be much of a change except the fact that it's been 20 years since it all began, so it's been 20 years in the people's mind evolution Wink

I'd like to believe people are more open today than they were in the 1990s Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 7:03 am

I know this has been said, but I think the main reasons behind the whole way that homosexuality was portrayed was that Japan's cultural views on sexuality, also the time period, gay couples were still a huge taboo until the 2000s, and the audience that the show is mean for.

The reason Naoko was upset with the "gender-bending" was because that was not how she intended the starlights to be. I'm still confused about the whole gender thing with the starlights, but I think the manga and anime portray it different & Naoko was upset about the anime's portrayal. Correct me if I'm wrong about that though.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 7:09 am

Yeah I've heard she was upset about it as well and I can understand that. It's not because the gender-bending issue but mostly because they changed her story as it was meant to be. According to her first idea, I think she always said only girls could be senshi right? I personally do like both versions of Starlights in the manga and the anime thought Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 7:22 am

Naoko was mainly upset at the fact that the Starlights never were supposed to men and they were never supposed to be "major" characters in Stars. Now some fans actually dislike Naoko for that, since many people don't really agree with her....

I do, since it made things....awkward for the most part in Stars, and frankly it confused me for the longest when I first watched it. I think that does contribute to the "homophobia" debate, since most writers and producers wanted to replace the empty spots that Mamoru and Chibiusa left....with men. So I mean, I can agree with it in this part of the anime.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 9:37 am

@Lust wrote:


Also, this show is for young girls, not gay men. It's not catered towards us at all, so it makes sense they're going to get sweeped under the rug.
On the other hand, Cardcaptor Sakura was also aimed at little girls which came out in Japan in the late 90s and I feel like they handled Touya and Yukito's relationship with each other in a much more sensitive and not so much stereotypical manner. The anime writers may not have been intentionally homophobic, but I remember reading one of Mixx's releases of the Sailor Moon manga, they had this little column where Takeuchi wrote her comments about the series and in one of them, she said the biggest difference between the manga and the anime was that the manga was written by women for women whereas the anime was handled by a mostly male staff. There was a great op-ed article on the Sailor Moon Uncensored site a few years back (I think it's still there actually) about the anime's stereotypical portrayal of teenage girls so while the anime writers may not have had bad intentions, I think they still fell into the trap of being stereotypical. In the case of the Starlights, I don't think it's so much that they were men becoming women, but they were women disguising themselves as men. I always liked that change in the anime because I felt like it was a very creative way of hiding their identities, but their true form had always been as women. I remember reading that Kunihiko Ikuhara had originally planned on using the plot of the Utena movie for the plot of the third Sailor Moon movie but for some reason he wasn't able to use it. The Utena movie's plot was very open about Anthy and Utena's lesbian relationship, so if he had used it, we may have gotten to see an open portrayal of Haruka and Michiru's relationship instead, so I wonder now why he decided to use that plot for Utena instead of Sailor Moon. It would have made a way better plot than what we did get for the Supers movie.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 9:44 am

It's a "kids show" after all and there's not going to be that many open scenes about anyone's relationship whereas the manga did go there a little bit more than the anime. It sort of just implied a lot of things about haruka and michirus relationship and left it to the imagination. It was obvious they had a sexual relationship because of some of the flirting they did back and forth and as for a kissing scene? Many parents would probably been offended if they threw much of that in there because of the era it was in.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 10:35 am

Though the Sailor Moon manga was written for an older audience (what was it, 13+?) compared to little girls, the show reflects that and the culture. I feel in the Japanese version of Sailor Moon, I personally liked that they didn't come right out and say "Haruka and Michiru are lesbian lovers!" they used a different kind of wording to suggest it; a more mature way, which an older audience could understand. And I loved how Haruka and Michiru talked to each other. You could understand their relationship even if they had very minor intimate moments (my favorites were quotes like "you need to eat less sweets" "I don't listen to that sort of talk outside of bed" (it's along those lines) and "there's so many fun things you get to do as an adult that you can't do as a kid" Michiru was the one that said this I believe (again something along those lines) and Haruka blushed.)

As for Usagi "dancing around" the topic, Usagi is portrayed as "innocent" and "naïve". For example, she knew Seiya had feelings for her in Stars (and Usagi was feeling something strong for Seiya in return, she knew that too) but in the very last episode, Usagi was acting completely clueless in regard to Seiya and her/his feelings toward her. Which, everyone poked fun at her for. Yes, she had Mamoru back and all that, but she was still playing innocent and naïve. She is always portrayed in this way when it comes to adult/mature situations. I remember one episode she made a comment about how Haruka and Michiru were either having an adult conversation/feelings (I can never remember which off the top of my head but it's along these lines) when Haruka and Michiru walked away. As mentioned before by Miki, Haruka and Michiru were I believe more portrayed as adults and the inners are more "naïve" young girls.

Personally, I didn't see anything homophobic in Sailor Moon. What I saw that was homophobic was the way the English dub handled these situations with Haruka and Michiru and Zoicite and Kunzite, Fisheye, etc. Now that was homophobic. But it was also the 90s and the English dub really was aimed at little girls (notice the trend where a majority of the members on the forum say they got into Sailor Moon between like 5-7). Kids wouldn't have understood anyway. Who knows what we could get in the 2013 anime. It's aimed at an older audience and we're in the 2000s. The world has changed/is changing in regard to sexuality. Just remember, cultures are very different from one another, especially the west and the east.

Also, I see no transphobia with the Starlights either. I see what others have stated about the topic and I agree.

So all in all, no I don't really see any queerphobia in Sailor Moon. Which I think is great Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 12:25 pm

I remember reading an article once where one of the translators at Cloverway had said they originally wanted to keep Sailor Uranus and Neptune's lesbian relationship in the dub but since S was going to be airing in America, they had to censor it, but I don't know if that article was actually true or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 12:44 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:

While Fisheye and Fiore eventually reform their ways and become good, it was only so that they would end up fighting to protect the "purer" heterosexual relationship of Usagi and Mamoru, yet Usagi's continuous pursuit of Mamoru even after she found out he was engaged in PGSM is portrayed as a positive virtue yet giving up the one you love is a virtue for gay characters.

I think that giving up on somebody who is not into you is generally portrayed as virtue - Fisheye and Fiore doesn't seem much different from Rei and Saori.

Mamoru and Usagi's relationship gets IMO special treatment not because it's heterosexual, but because it's the main couple of the series.


@Neon Genesis wrote:
Usagi and the other Inners chase after boys all the time even when Usagi already has a boyfriend and yet they're never called perverts for chasing after their heterosexual fantasies.

They may not be called perverts, but their chasing after boys is generally played for laughs and they - with exception of Usagi - never seem to get a decent date, let alone a serious boyfriend.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 9:29 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
I remember reading an article once where one of the translators at Cloverway had said they originally wanted to keep Sailor Uranus and Neptune's lesbian relationship in the dub but since S was going to be airing in America, they had to censor it, but I don't know if that article was actually true or not.

I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, it took a while for United States to put ANY homosexual couples on any television show, let alone an animation. It's still a touch and go process, especially since most writers think it's "risky" to elaborate on homosexual relationships in most shows, from my perspective.

As for Cloverway, I don't blame them for not mentioning Haruka and Michiru as a couple or in a relationship, HOWEVER I think that they could have left them as friends rather than cousins.... -___-

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 9:32 pm

Plus, just one quick thing to add.

I don't think anyone's relationship was stressed on as much in the anime, as they were in the manga. Even with the few kisses and romantic scenes with Usagi and Mamoru, it still doesn't compare to the manga's scenes of those two. Same with Haruka and Michiru.

So I think it goes for all sexualities. I think the anime tends to focus on battles and comedy rather than relationships, even though there are those rare episodes where a character(s) are profiled.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 9:33 pm

Yes I agree friends would have been better >>

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   16th July 2012, 9:37 pm

@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
Plus, just one quick thing to add.

I don't think anyone's relationship was stressed on as much in the anime, as they were in the manga. Even with the few kisses and romantic scenes with Usagi and Mamoru, it still doesn't compare to the manga's scenes of those two. Same with Haruka and Michiru.

So I think it goes for all sexualities. I think the anime tends to focus on battles and comedy rather than relationships, even though there are those rare episodes where a character(s) are profiled.

I agree. There wasn't really much going on with romantic relationships in the anime that were suggested or otherwise. There wasn't even much intimacy between Usagi and Mamoru in the anime. Romance I feel like is more of a backseat plot between characters.

And yeah, Haruka and Michiru could have been made like best friends rather than cousins. I mean who bought into that? -.-

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 12:39 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:

I think that giving up on somebody who is not into you is generally portrayed as virtue - Fisheye and Fiore doesn't seem much different from Rei and Saori.



But at least Saori got a boyfriend of her own and Rei has a potential boyfriend if she ever admits to herself that she likes Yuichiro whereas it seems most of the relationships of gay men in the anime wind up in tragedy. This is also something that bugs me slightly about American movies and TV shows. Like even in gay friendly movies like Brokeback Mountain, the gay couple's relationship almost always ends up in tragedy for some reason. I don't know why people just can't do a happily ever after romance for a gay couple.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 12:46 am

@Neon Genesis wrote:
@Lust wrote:


Also, this show is for young girls, not gay men. It's not catered towards us at all, so it makes sense they're going to get sweeped under the rug.
On the other hand, Cardcaptor Sakura was also aimed at little girls which came out in Japan in the late 90s and I feel like they handled Touya and Yukito's relationship with each other in a much more sensitive and not so much stereotypical manner. The anime writers may not have been intentionally homophobic, but I remember reading one of Mixx's releases of the Sailor Moon manga, they had this little column where Takeuchi wrote her comments about the series and in one of them, she said the biggest difference between the manga and the anime was that the manga was written by women for women whereas the anime was handled by a mostly male staff. There was a great op-ed article on the Sailor Moon Uncensored site a few years back (I think it's still there actually) about the anime's stereotypical portrayal of teenage girls so while the anime writers may not have had bad intentions, I think they still fell into the trap of being stereotypical. In the case of the Starlights, I don't think it's so much that they were men becoming women, but they were women disguising themselves as men. I always liked that change in the anime because I felt like it was a very creative way of hiding their identities, but their true form had always been as women. I remember reading that Kunihiko Ikuhara had originally planned on using the plot of the Utena movie for the plot of the third Sailor Moon movie but for some reason he wasn't able to use it. The Utena movie's plot was very open about Anthy and Utena's lesbian relationship, so if he had used it, we may have gotten to see an open portrayal of Haruka and Michiru's relationship instead, so I wonder now why he decided to use that plot for Utena instead of Sailor Moon. It would have made a way better plot than what we did get for the Supers movie.

Just because someone handled it better doesn't make them homophobic. This was the beginning of magical girl shows and started out in 1992. You're comparing different years entirely, even within the same decade. I'm not sure if you're even debating with me at the moment.

This is like going back to the 50s of Loony Toons shows and calling them racist. It's a different time and Japan is a different culture.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 12:59 am

Well you've listed four characters... all of them villains... I don't think that range can form a direct reflection of the Sailor Moon anime's opinion on homosexuality and I think you'll find that there more "tragedies" in the heterosexual relationships.

Beryl's unrequited onesided love for Endymion left her jealous and bitter
Endymion and Serenity's destined Romance ended up with them both dead
Nephrite and Naru's relationship ended with Nephrite depressed and Naru depressed.
Koan's one sided love for Rubeus led to her being manipulated and used.
Esmeraude's one side love for Demand led her to be manipulated as well as a jealous woman
Petz and Saphir's relationship meant that Petz had to let Saphir led himself into his death
Eilu and An's infatuations with Usagi and Mamoru led them to be unable to love properly and eventuated with An's death

It still needs to be taken into account that Sailor Moon is a Japanese television programme that deals with sexuality, both hetero and homo differently.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 1:11 am

Also...

Kaorinite's love for Professor Tomoe was never fulfilled and was killed by his daughter's possessor.

Mimette went through plenty of awkward heart breaks over celebrity idols.

Queen Nehelenia had a hush hush love for Helios that wasn't brought into main focus.

With Good People:

Makoto's heart is so broken over the upperclassmen that was her ex boyfriend that she becomes self-destructive trying to find a love like him.

Minako had a crush on a boy of the volleyball team, but couldn't be with him due to her duties as Sailor V.

Ami couldn't be with the boy of her dreams because of her Sailor Senshi duties and focusing on school.

ChibiUsa couldn't be with Helios since he was the Priest of Elysian and the guardian of people's dreams.

Motoki has had two heartbreaks with Rika with her having to travel all the time and having to wait for her.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 1:13 am

... not to mention that extremely depressing episode with Minako and Alan and Katarina...

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 1:20 am

Or even when Tiger's Eye treated Makoto like crap after they had that dance.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 7:31 am

@Lust wrote:


Just because someone handled it better doesn't make them homophobic. This was the beginning of magical girl shows and started out in 1992. You're comparing different years entirely, even within the same decade. I'm not sure if you're even debating with me at the moment.

This is like going back to the 50s of Loony Toons shows and calling them racist. It's a different time and Japan is a different culture.
The last episode of Sailor Moon aired in Japan in February 1997. The first vol of the CCS manga came out in Japan in May 1996 and the first episode of the anime aired in April 1998. I don't think they're that far apart from each other and Clamp had been writing other BL-friendly manga earlier than that like Tokyo Babylon.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 11:09 am

But Clamp is way different than Naoko Takeuchi. They purposely focused more on homosexual themes and stuff like that in their manga. Clamp also does a wide range of audiences for their manga. They do stuff aimed at younger girls up to dark adult series (X?).

I don't think Naoko set out to have a manga that dealt with these themes, therefore ,of course there are gunna be some stuff lacking, especially with the anime since it was SO different from the manga. But that doesn't necessarily make it homophobic either. I would say it's more to do with possible ignorance on the subjects of the time period or culutural differences when it comes to how the characters act.

I think you're really making more of a deal out of this than it really is. Sailor Moon was never meant to be some great show that deal with these themes. In fact, I think the main theme that Naoko only really wanted to portray was female empowerment.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 11:44 am

Small Lady wrote:
I don't think Naoko set out to have a manga that dealt with these themes, therefore ,of course there are gunna be some stuff lacking, especially with the anime since it was SO different from the manga. But that doesn't necessarily make it homophobic either. I would say it's more to do with possible ignorance on the subjects of the time period or culutural differences when it comes to how the characters act.

I think you're really making more of a deal out of this than it really is. Sailor Moon was never meant to be some great show that deal with these themes. In fact, I think the main theme that Naoko only really wanted to portray was female empowerment.

Yeah I agree! I'm glad someone brought up a topic like this since I've never seen it around anywhere else! However, I don't think that the series is homophobic. Like I said before, Naoko did not have to include Haruka and Michiru as lesbians, nor did she have address any sort of homosexual relationships.

With that in mind, the writers for the anime actually include more of those themes with the introduction of Fiore, Kunzite and Zoicite, Fisheye and so on. So in retrospect, I think the anime and manga are far from being homophobic. Plus, why would these relationships be the main focus of a show about a Moon Princess fighting for love and justice anyways?

It's like if Pokemon was mainly focus on the relationship between Jessie and James rather than the Pokemon itself. haha

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 12:42 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
Takeuchi wrote her comments about the series and in one of them, she said the biggest difference between the manga and the anime was that the manga was written by women for women whereas the anime was handled by a mostly male staff.

OT a bit- but while I understand Takeuchi's annoyance with the changes made to her story, the idea that gender influences negatively one's ability for creating a story, is unsettling.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 12:58 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Neon Genesis wrote:
Takeuchi wrote her comments about the series and in one of them, she said the biggest difference between the manga and the anime was that the manga was written by women for women whereas the anime was handled by a mostly male staff.

OT a bit- but while I understand Takeuchi's annoyance with the changes made to her story, the idea that gender influences negatively one's ability for creating a story, is unsettling.

Well, men think differently than women. It's just a fact, so I can see where she is coming from with the whole women writing a story to empower women thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is The Sailor Moon Anime Homophobic?   17th July 2012, 4:36 pm

Small Lady wrote:
But Clamp is way different than Naoko Takeuchi. They purposely focused more on homosexual themes and stuff like that in their manga. Clamp also does a wide range of audiences for their manga. They do stuff aimed at younger girls up to dark adult series (X?).
Now I wonder what it would be like if Clamp wrote a Sailor Moon remake manga. Of course, all the Sailor Soldiers would be in one huge love hexagon with each other.
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