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 Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?

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Moonlight Lady
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   5th September 2012, 11:28 am

I see that we've veered off topic and sorry fir thar, but may continue it somewhere else? Would somebody be interested

Only one thing that struck me:

Tsuki-no-Kagayaki wrote:
Yes, I think they share deeper love for Usagi than any other senshi.

I disagree strongly - IMO that was clearly shown that Inners love her more, besides Mamoru (I'm on topic). They care for her in their way and I never said that hate her, but IMO they don't respect her.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   5th September 2012, 1:11 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:

Yes, she knew who Haruka was during that meeting - but later she admitted being interested in Haruka much before that and she had that silent, distant admiration.

Yup, she did but I think it was still a pretty quick move from her to invite Haruka to her performance right after meeting face to face. She wanted to get straight to the point after finally meeting Haruka.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Michiru is very moved during that scene, because she deeply cares. But Mamoru has also scenes, when he's moved, has to restrain himself, shouts and even cries - that doesn't mean that he generally isn't reserved person. People aren't monoliths.

Of course they're not. But as you might have read from the manga Michiru is calmer than Haruka but even more reserved when she loses her patience. She as well has her furious side and one thing which proves this very clearly is that when she got angry just from a tiny thing even Haruka (who has the most quick-tempered nature) said she's scary which in my opinion means a lot. So we see Michiru has also her quick-tempered side.
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
For me it's shame they didn't put more Mamoru and Usagi
They almost always are with each other, but also they usually talk about mission, finding talismans, who can be the next victim.
It's obviously true that Usagi and Mamoru got more time screen and plot importance, which makes it harder to compare.

And why were they mostly talking about their mission Wink ? Because they're both so dedicated to accomplish it no matter what they need to do and no matter what methods to use. You can see then flirting with each other in the manga very often and they had some awesome screen time in Stars and in the manga (they still deserve so much more time ;___;)when they talked to each other how they were okay no matter what awaits for them if they just had each other and that they're not bored when they have each other close.

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I see that we've veered off topic and sorry fir
thar, but may continue it somewhere else? Would somebody be interested
I disagree strongly - IMO that was clearly shown that Inners love her
more, besides Mamoru (I'm on topic). They care for her in their way and I
never said that hate her, but IMO they don't respect her.

Nah it doesn't matter for me. I was just letting everyone know I try to stay on the topic and not just spamming around.

I think they certainly DO respect Usagi at least as much as the Inners. As seen from the manga (as well as from the anime), they both love their Princess very, very much and that they truly respect her. Even though you respected someone if that person was in danger because of her kindness and sweetness you would definitely try to protect her in all possible ways. And as I've said in an earlier post (I'm pasting it here)

I think they share deeper love for Usagi than any other senshi. You can see it in so many situations but one scene I have to point out is the episode 180 when Starlights had left and Uranus and Neptune try to explain Usagi they only want to protect her. Their love and care is clearly heard from their voices. And the manga has some awesome scenes of Uranus and Neptune facing Usagi and showing how they love her as their Princess.

Haruka and Michiru sure respected their Princess but just like Haruka said Usagi's too sweet at times which has turned against her many times and almost killed her. They wanted to protect her since as I pointed out earlier they didn't think Starlights were worth
of their trust and that Usagi would just be hurt and in danger if she cooperated with them.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   5th September 2012, 5:54 pm

Tsuki-no-Kagayaki wrote:

Of course they're not. But as you might have read from the manga Michiru is
calmer than Haruka but even more reserved when she loses her patience.
She as well has her furious side and one thing which proves this very
clearly is that when she got angry just from a tiny thing even Haruka
(who has the most quick-tempered nature) said she's scary which in my opinion means a lot. So we see Michiru has also her quick-tempered side.


Now I'm curious to know what Michiru is like in bed. Like does she have a BDSM side to her or something? ^^;;
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   5th September 2012, 6:28 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
Now I'm curious to know what Michiru is like in bed. Like does she have a BDSM side to her or something? ^^;;

Ahem. Just to remind we're on PG-13 forum Razz And Michiru and Haruka by no means have any sides like that XD. I don't think Michiru's ever truly angry to Haruka since they're soul mates and understand each other perfectly. She's calm but just like the sea she can also turn out to be stormy and furious, just like the wind which resembles Haruka's personality. (BTW have you read the manga?)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   5th September 2012, 7:18 pm

Tsuki-no-Kagayaki wrote:
@Neon Genesis wrote:
Now I'm curious to know what Michiru is like in bed. Like does she have a BDSM side to her or something? ^^;;

Ahem. Just to remind we're on PG-13 forum Razz And Michiru and Haruka by no means have any sides like that XD. I don't think Michiru's ever truly angry to Haruka since they're soul mates and understand each other perfectly. She's calm but just like the sea she can also turn out to be stormy and furious, just like the wind which resembles Haruka's personality. (BTW have you read the manga?)

Err... they may be soulmates but they're still human, I'm sure they have their ups and downs like any normal relationship...

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   6th September 2012, 7:20 am

Miki wrote:

Err... they may be soulmates but they're still human, I'm sure they have their ups and downs like any normal relationship...

Yah what I meant is more like they apparently don't have so big fights that they'd come over-furious which they can be when fighting against the enemies. Every couple has their ups and downs just like you said, some have bigger, some have smaller which aren't seen often. I just wanted to say that I certainly do not believe that Michiru (neither Haruka) have any... well... those kind of sides Neon Genesis was referring to Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   6th September 2012, 11:54 am

I think that less time screen for H&Mi can result in seeing their relationship as more perfect and less affected by petty problems of everyday life. But for me it does not mean that their relationship is strong, because it requires getting through trials. So I didn't see enough of them to convince me that they are soulmates.

And human personalities are complex, so most people have different sides. Another thing is that people also change while being with each other. You see the process of becoming a couple, when I and you becomes we. There are no two halves of apple.

H&Mi see Usagi's sweetness and kindness are weakness, not strenght, and her outlook on life as naive. Though they should have more than enough proof that it's not so. That's why I say they don't respect her.

And I made a new thread to continue debate on other points:

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t2949-debate-are-haruka-and-michiru-actions-justifiable
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 12:22 am

People see things in different ways. I personally didn't see more than couple episodes before I was convinced of their love and saw that they were definitely soul mates. I just see it from everything they do and hear it from their voices. And as known, in the anime Haruka's and Michiru's seiyuus were told to speak like a married couple which I heard immediately from their voices when they were first introduced (and I heard about their seiyuus very much later)

You can see how Haruka and Michiru changed after they met each other. They became their real selves and like they have said many times they are both able to be their real selves only when they're together. And as heard (or read if you don't listen to their poems but just read the translation) they both said they weren't themselves until finding each other and falling in love.

Haruka and Michiru see Usagi's kindness and sweetness as both, strength and weakness at the same time and I personally have to agree them. Her sweetness can bring good but it can also bring sorrow and destruction as we have seen many times. I try to avoid getting more off topic and will post the rest of my thoughts to the new debate. Thanks for making one!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 1:22 pm

It depends perhaps on a definition of soulmate. For me, it's when somebody is one and only for another. But it doesn't mean that it's impossible to be in happy, strong, loving couple, even married, if you're not soulmates. Example could be Naru and Umino - I could see them with others, if their life found a different path, even though I like them as a couple. They seem happy with each other and their relationship may be for a lifetime, but I don't see the one-and-oneliness as with Usagi and Mamoru.

With H&Mi I didn't see enough to determine it.

And as for using songs of characters to argue for a relationship, I am wary of that. In general, love should more felt than told about. For fans of the couple it's great to get more of it, but it probably won't convince the sceptics.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 1:54 pm

And for me HaruMichi are so much more soul mate-y than Usagi and Mamoru and are meant to be together, live together, die together, as one person.

And I'm not usually ever even mentioning the character songs since most people haven't heard them AND I see enough to know they're soul mates when watching even one anime episode where HaruMichi are in or reading one chapter of the manga. And I must say when I first saw them I felt and knew they were soul mates and lovers, even though I had never heard of their seiyuus neither anything about their character songs, poems, or about anything else. I had just seen them in one anime episode and in one manga act. For me(and for so many people) their love is so clearly seen that we do not need any physical proofs nor any character songs or information about their seiyuus or backgrounds. We know they're soul mates because we see and hear it from everything they say and do. Character songs, poems, backgrounds and other info just give us more to love, even without them we know how deeply they love each other and love them and their relationship. Character songs apparently won't convince everybody but that's not why they were made. Heck, not a single part of the series or Naoko’s notes or info was created to convince skeptics, they were created for us to love them and discuss about them. The entire series was created for people who truly love them.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 3:19 pm

But then again, we don't even know if Michiru and Haruka's love is strong enough to survive through the ages. We don't know a thing about if they had anything in the Past or in the Future. While Mamoru and Usagi's love is so strong it repeats itself over and over again through history. Surely that makes their bond pretty darn strong?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 3:24 pm

Does the past really mean everything though? :/

Let's say for giggles reincarnation is real and we'll be reborn again after this life. Do you think we'd end up with the same people we were with in this life in the next one?

That's just one thing Usagi and Mamoru have; their past lives were together.

I think I need to go through the first season again because from what I remember, they just went from being like, mean to each other, to like liking each other.

I personally think Haruka and Michiru would last for the ages, too. I can't see anything breaking them up; what could?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 3:31 pm

Not at all, Usagi and Mamoru and Serenity and Endymion are completely different individuals with completely differet histories and back-stories (all versions with the exception of the anime make this clear). They however, are incarnations of the same thing (lets think of it as an incarnation of a particular star seed). The love these two souls have for each other is so strong that they will fall in love absolutely regardless of how they are incarnated in any era.

In the anime, they started off as mortal enemies, eventually it just became teasing and they both secretly enjoyed it, they became closer and started to respect each other, then Mamoru got stabbed and Usagi was genuinely concerned and followed him about which eventually lead to them having memories restored. The "meanness", im pretty sure, was just their way of flirting. Its like how Rei and Usagi fight, they care about each other, but they still argue. Its like they say "you like each other as much as you fight".

Unlike MamoUsa, we know absolutely nothing about Haruka and Michiru's other incarnations, so we can't comment for or against on that front. They may be different people in other incarnations, not suited to be together. Mamoru and Usagi however will fall in love regardless of who they become. It's the bond of destiny or whatever.

Think of it this way, in one of the musicals, Zoisite mentions that he in a previous life loved Kunzite (this is referring to the anime), in this particular musical, in this incarnation (which is a sort of spin-off-sequel to the anime) he is no longer in love with Kunzite, and even goes on a pseudo-date with Ami. This nicely parallels Mao and Usa, that Zoisite and Kunzite may have been in love once but their love was not powerful enough to survive into the next incarnation.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 3:43 pm

Miki wrote:
Not at all, Usagi and Mamoru and Serenity and Endymion are completely different individuals with completely differet histories and back-stories (all versions with the exception of the anime make this clear). They however, are incarnations of the same thing (lets think of it as an incarnation of a particular star seed). The love these two souls have for each other is so strong that they will fall in love absolutely regardless of how they are incarnated in any era.

That's why I mentioned reincarnation in my post. Razz

Plus, we only have two times this happened to Usagi and Mamoru; the past and the present. They haven't died and got reincarnated several times over during different eras, showing that incarnation does matter and plays a role in showing love...

Usagi and Mamoru were really the only two that got explored upon in the past. No one else really does (as far as I've ever known). They're the central characters, so of course it was all about them. But who's to say Haruka and Michiru weren't together during the Silver Millennium as their past selves? We don't know, so therefore the argument can go both ways: we can speculate that they were or we can say perhaps not. That's what makes it fun Very Happy so yes, you are right on that one.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 3:45 pm

(Also, are they supposed to be constantly reincarnated, ultimately making them immortal in a sense? I always figured Queen Serenity wanted to save her daughter/Prince Endymion/the senshi from further doom and give them more opportunities to live and give them another chance, hence the reincarnation in the future.)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 3:51 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Miki wrote:
Not at all, Usagi and Mamoru and Serenity and Endymion are completely different individuals with completely differet histories and back-stories (all versions with the exception of the anime make this clear). They however, are incarnations of the same thing (lets think of it as an incarnation of a particular star seed). The love these two souls have for each other is so strong that they will fall in love absolutely regardless of how they are incarnated in any era.

That's why I mentioned reincarnation in my post. Razz

Plus, we only have two times this happened to Usagi and Mamoru; the past and the present. They haven't died and got reincarnated several times over during different eras, showing that incarnation does matter and plays a role in showing love...

Usagi and Mamoru were really the only two that got explored upon in the past. No one else really does (as far as I've ever known). They're the central characters, so of course it was all about them. But who's to say Haruka and Michiru weren't together during the Silver Millennium as their past selves? We don't know, so therefore the argument can go both ways: we can speculate that they were or we can say perhaps not. That's what makes it fun Very Happy

there are implications in both songs, and one incarnation between Silver Millennium and Tokyo is shown in one of musicals taking place in the Edo Period. Also the song "Moonlight Densetsu" strengthens this claim if we're bringing in songs as evidence. and from myu "Double Moonlight Romance".

We can't comment at all on HarukMichi, which is why we can't use it as evidence. When we get into speculation then we start bringing int things like fanfiction and headcanons and it all becomes very illogical XD I mean we also don't have evidence that Makoto owned a successful chain of laundromats in Crystal tokyo but nothing to dispute it either.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 3:54 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
(Also, are they supposed to be constantly reincarnated, ultimately making them immortal in a sense? I always figured Queen Serenity wanted to save her daughter/Prince Endymion/the senshi from further doom and give them more opportunities to live and give them another chance, hence the reincarnation in the future.)

The idea of reincarnation hasn't got much to do with repeating your past life, its more about your soul carrying on into another, different form, there may be similarities, but just as many differences. In the case of Endymion and Serenity, they could be very different people, but they'll eventually fall in love. I don't think Queen Serenity would have intentionally wanted to repeat the romance that destroyed two kingdoms and cost countless lives (in my opinion, i put more blame on Serenity for the fall of the Moon Kingdom than Beryl). It seems that even Serenity and Endymion were already destined for each other. Perhaps from a previous incarnation?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   7th September 2012, 4:12 pm

Ah okay. I like your points, Miki ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 9:56 am

Why do you guys ALWAYS write the best posts when I'm offline and cannot join the conversation XD?! *cries*

Anyways I let you two see something; this is from the manga when the Outers tell the other Senshi about their past







And few pages later



So the Outers were never actually met in their past before they gathered together to awaken Sailor Saturn. So Haruka and Michiru never had even one chance to meet each other before they awakened Saturn and the Silver Millennium was destroyed. Like they said they were forbidden to leave the zones they were assigned to protect so they saw each other before Saturn was awakened. Naoko has spoken.

And when it comes to the future if somebody loves the other enough to die for her sake and cannot continue living if the other one is dead like Haruka and Michiru I believe their love is eternal. How couldn't they love each other in future lives if they couldn't live without having each other on their sides? I believe they will always be together and love each other being halves of one another. Soul mates are soul mates forever and for all eternity <3

My OTP talk is over, for now

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 10:40 am

That's why I said, is incarnations that important? We only saw two instances with Usagi and Mamoru. That's it. I still feel like a part of Usagi and Mamoru falling for each other was due to them realizing their past lives. And then, thanks to Chibiusa, well damn, you can't end it and get rid of her existence. So, regardless of what could have happened between Usagi and Mamoru personal-wise, they have a child they love in the future that they already met. That's why I'm not exactly completely for Chibiusa going to the past because she completely messed with their relationship in that way and everything else.

And even then, if you want to get technical, would we even want Usagi and Mamoru together when all that crosses their path is problems from it? I mean yeah, all about fighting against the odds and being together (that's my favorite kind of romance), but yeah.

Huh. This is funny to me. I guess even though fighting against everything to be together is my favorite kind of romance story, Usagi and Mamoru just don't do it for me. Haruka and Michiru's love, cuteness, sweetness, soul mate-ness, just won me over and outweighed it for them. Again, that's not to say I don't like Usagi and Mamoru, I do; they're just not my favorite.

(PS -- Tsuki you just totally gave ammo to Miki with your post XD)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 10:52 am

Tuxie - I certainly agree with you!

lol I did not XD! What I meant was just that past lives and incarnations aren't important. Haruka and Michiru didn't have the chance to meet and love each other in their past lives but when they were able to meet each other in the present and fell in love with each other. And like I said they love each other more than the world itself and were lonely and sad in their past lives because something was missing. They didn't meet each other and hadn't known the other side of themselves since they're one person when together. In the present they became full when they met the other one. They're willing to sacrifice anything for the sake of their lover and cannot live without each other. They follow the other to the death love each other so much they don't care if they end up in hell if they just have each other. So yah, they will always be together, now and forever.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 11:16 am

Tsuki-no-Kagayaki - yes, they couldn't meet in the past and we don't know, what could have happened. IMO it's the point that we don't know with H&Mi and with Usagi and Mamoru we do.

And when they were willing to sacrificing everything for their lover?


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That's why I said, is incarnations that important? We only saw two instances with Usagi and Mamoru. That's it. I still feel like a part of Usagi and Mamoru falling for each other was due to them realizing their past lives. And then, thanks to Chibiusa, well damn, you can't end it and get rid of her existence. So, regardless of what could have happened between Usagi and Mamoru personal-wise, they have a child they love in the future that they already met. That's why I'm not exactly completely for Chibiusa going to the past because she completely messed with their relationship in that way and everything else.

IMO, therefore King Endymion sent Mamoru these dreams - so as to Chibiusa wouldn't mess with their relationship.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 11:27 am

Moonlight Lady - Well, we actually do know what happened if Haruka and Michiru were to meet in their past lives; they'd fall in love just like they did in the present, finally finding the other side of one another, their souls and minds becoming full.

And it's pointed out in both, the manga and anime ~

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 1:00 pm

But how do we know? It's definitively likely, but we still don't see it. With Mamoru and Usagi we were shown repeatedly that no death, brainwashing, amnesia or rivals is able to break their bond.

Miki wrote:

In the anime, they started off as mortal enemies, eventually it just became teasing and they both secretly enjoyed it, they became closer and started to respect each other, then Mamoru got stabbed and Usagi was genuinely concerned and followed him about which eventually lead to them having memories restored. The "meanness", im pretty sure, was just their way of flirting. Its like how Rei and Usagi fight, they care about each other, but they still argue. Its like they say "you like each other as much as you fight".

I agree mostly, only I'd like to point out that unlike with Rei and Usagi, who still bicker even as best friends, Mamoru and Usagi's fights disappear, when they get together. So it was really mating ritual
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 1:10 pm

If you can't see how much Haruka and Michiru love each other I really wonder how many romantic scenes you need to see to know it... I mean most people see it when they watch even one anime episode or read one manga act. Not all people are like that though

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 1:24 pm

But what is romantic about these manga pages you posted here?

Given that the vast majority of people think that Mamoru covers Usagi with his body to protect her from sharp objects or lightings of energy because of destiny and that Usagi while kissing Mamoru closes her eyes and thinks of Crystal Tokio, while she really wants to be with Seiya, I am used to people not being able to see their love.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 1:31 pm

Err...I didn't mean the pages I posted... Those were just to prove that Haruka and Michiru didn't know each other in the past

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 4:38 pm

>..>

As Miki said before an incarnation between Silver Millennium and Tokyo is shown in one of the myu, by the end of the scene they've already gotten together.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 5:09 pm

Fights just 'disappearing' is unrealistic and unresolved. No couple exists like that. Also, who wants a perfect relationship with no hardships or difficulties or anything like that? It's fake and boring.

Also -- most people kiss with their eyes closed...

Not saying we can't see their love. We do, but we think there are stronger ones out there, just like say seeing someone better suited for Usagi (Seiya) personality wise. It is okay if you think they're the greatest, it is. But some of us do not. Really read our reasoning as to why we do Smile it's not Usagi and Mamoru hating either. Haruka and Michiru have their flaws as well, but I see them as more of a soul mate pairing than Usagi and Mamoru. And that reasoning is because I see how they compliment each other. Soul mates are your missing piece(s). They complete you. They compliment you. Haruka and Michiru compliment each other. I don't really see it with Usagi and Mamoru. They're not even close to the same. They have the same goal, that's about it. That doesn't make you "the same" or anything like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: MichiruXHaruka or MamoruXUsagi?   8th September 2012, 6:46 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:

And when they were willing to sacrificing everything for their lover?




.
There was that episode of S where Eudial is about to take Haruka's heart crystal and Michiru runs through the onslaught of needles to save Haruka and she steps in front of Haruka just before Eudial shoots her gun to protect Haruka. That episode is still one of the saddest moments in the anime to me.
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