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 Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?

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PostSubject: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   6th September 2012, 12:20 pm

As on different thread we has have veered off topic, I thought that new topic could be useful.

What can be said about Haruka and Michiru's actions - towards Usagi and Inner Senshi, Starlights, Hotaru, Galaxia?

I always believed that they were presented as warriors with more cynical outlook on fight and using more shady methods. However, the show sided with Usagi's pure and innocent idealism, proving H&Mi wrong.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   6th September 2012, 12:38 pm

I don't think Usagi's pure and innocent idealism proved Haruka and Michiru wrong. Just because they used different tactics doesn't mean they used *wrong* tactics, ya know? They are still fighting to protect the world and what's wrong with that? :3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   6th September 2012, 1:09 pm

It depends on the eye of the beholder.

To Usagi, Haruka and Michiru were approaching certain battles and circumstances in a way she didn't think was necessary. Usagi has a good heart so naturally anything that could be seen as "negative" would be used as a last resort (if at all). This includes sparing lives. Case in point with Mistress 9 and Galaxia. She wanted to save Hotaru and save Galaxia, so she couldn't bring herself to kill either one of them.

Haruka and Michiru ultimately wanted to protect their princess and the world and would therefore do anything necessary to do so. Be it sacrificing other soldiers (like Saturn) or getting killed. That doesn't make it wrong, per se. Especially when all the soldiers agree that Usagi and the world come first. They're putting their lives on the line in the first place being senshi. This is what they've all agreed on when they took on their roles and missions.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   6th September 2012, 2:22 pm

I look at usagi as a bit of a softy to be honest with you. Heck if I was michiru or haruka I probably would have sacrificed one evil girl for the safety of the world. I don't think they were being too rash about their reasoning because to me they knew their specific purpose and knew how to carry out their plan and even though it all worked out I the end Usagi got in the way a lot. If I was Haruka I probably would have strangled her. I'm not anti usagi or anything, but S irked me a lot because of this.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   6th September 2012, 2:24 pm

Sometimes you have to sacrifice someone to save everyone else.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   6th September 2012, 3:52 pm

In the real world, i think it is justified but in Usagi-happy-yay-sunshine-yay-cake-yay world I think its not at all XD

*myuthings ignore as necessary*

in one musical "Mugen Gakuen ~ Mistress Labyrinth", which is based on the Infinity arc of the manga / S series. When Saturn is reborn, she really does end up destroying everything and the 8 other soldiers all die, leaving Usagi alone in the silence (while they die Pluto and Uranus even bitterly ask if this is what Usagi wanted). During the Silence, Usagi sincerely contemplates her idealogy, however, in the end, she does manage to save everyone without sacrificing anyone. So in Sailor Moon's world, its probably not justified, though in our world, it probably is.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   7th September 2012, 12:59 am

Ooh I remember that musical Miki.

I don't think Haruka and Michiru were wrong at all. Usagi sees things in a different way than they; she's not ready to spare anybody's life for the sake of the world and cannot kill anybody even when there's no other way left to save the world. In my opinion Usagi really is a bit softy (I certainly do agree with you Anjyu!) and really got in the way in Super. And she almost destroyed the world with her actions and killed everybody because of her kindness.

Haruka and Michiru know you can't always save everybody and sometimes you have to make sacrifices, kill yourself or sacrifice some people like one evil girl who Anjyu mentioned. To protect their Princess and the future they are ready to make any sacrifice needed and use whatever methods necessary. Of all Senshi they are the most dedicated to their mission and destiny.

There are times when you have to sacrifice somebody to save everyone else.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   7th September 2012, 1:54 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I don't think Usagi's pure and innocent idealism proved Haruka and Michiru wrong. Just because they used different tactics doesn't mean they used *wrong* tactics, ya know? They are still fighting to protect the world and what's wrong with that? :3

Using dirty tactics.

I guess that it's very difficult discussion, because it involves people's personal values. However, IMO, at least in anime H&Mi are proved wrong as nothing happens as they assumed. Idea of sacrifing others or betrayal gets comdemned in that universe.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   7th September 2012, 6:02 pm

It's definitely a discussion with no right or wrong answer. People are different in their beliefs and moral standings. Some people will side with Usagi's "I will save everyone, no matter what" ideal, while others will side with the Outer's idea of "I will save the planet, no matter what."

While the ideas are similar, there are still differences in the tactics used to achieve it.

Personally, I still side with the Outers because IF the world did not have a Usagi around to do everything in the most ideal way, then I really believe that the Outers way of doing things would be the only other option to save the world.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   8th September 2012, 11:25 am

Yes, the answer to the question about what is acceptable, depends on people's personal morality - so there are different views.

Still, we can see with which option sides the anime-verse - and it seems defintively to prove Usagi's right.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   8th September 2012, 11:31 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Yes, the answer to the question about what is acceptable, depends on people's personal morality - so there are different views.

Still, we can see with which option sides the anime-verse - and it seems defintively to prove Usagi's right.

Because she is the main character. Kinda like it's her way or the highway.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   8th September 2012, 1:32 pm

I don't agree really Usagi is not Harry Potter



Tsuki-no-Kagayaki wrote:
Ooh I remember that musical Miki.

I don't think Haruka and Michiru were wrong at all. Usagi sees things in a different way than they; she's not ready to spare anybody's life for the sake of the world and cannot kill anybody even when there's no other way left to save the world. In my opinion Usagi really is a bit softy (I certainly do agree with you Anjyu!) and really got in the way in Super. And she almost destroyed the world with her actions and killed everybody because of her kindness.

Haruka and Michiru know you can't always save everybody and sometimes you have to make sacrifices, kill yourself or sacrifice some people like one evil girl who Anjyu mentioned. To protect their Princess and the future they are ready to make any sacrifice needed and use whatever methods necessary. Of all Senshi they are the most dedicated to their mission and destiny.

There are times when you have to sacrifice somebody to save everyone else.

I don't think it's fair to blame Usagi for Death Busters' actions. She self-identifies as Warrior of Love and Justice and she means that. And Inner Senshi take it after her. They aren't less dedicated to their mission, but their mission is quite different from the Outers'.

And Hotaru is not evil.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   8th September 2012, 3:37 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I don't agree really Usagi is not Harry Potter



Tsuki-no-Kagayaki wrote:
Ooh I remember that musical Miki.

I don't think Haruka and Michiru were wrong at all. Usagi sees things in a different way than they; she's not ready to spare anybody's life for the sake of the world and cannot kill anybody even when there's no other way left to save the world. In my opinion Usagi really is a bit softy (I certainly do agree with you Anjyu!) and really got in the way in Super. And she almost destroyed the world with her actions and killed everybody because of her kindness.

Haruka and Michiru know you can't always save everybody and sometimes you have to make sacrifices, kill yourself or sacrifice some people like one evil girl who Anjyu mentioned. To protect their Princess and the future they are ready to make any sacrifice needed and use whatever methods necessary. Of all Senshi they are the most dedicated to their mission and destiny.

There are times when you have to sacrifice somebody to save everyone else.

I don't think it's fair to blame Usagi for Death Busters' actions. She self-identifies as Warrior of Love and Justice and she means that. And Inner Senshi take it after her. They aren't less dedicated to their mission, but their mission is quite different from the Outers'.

And Hotaru is not evil.

o_O how not? It always has to be Usagi's way. You saw literally no other way of how things could've been handled. It had to always be Usagi's way, so...

Next, when did Tsuki say to blame the Death Busters? o_o it was all Usagi. Just like, when did Tsuki call Hotaru evil? She didn't. There was evil in her, but she wasn't evil. And Usagi knew that. That's what made her want to save Hotaru and do whatever Mistress 9 wanted to save her. However, in the real world, things wouldn't have worked out like Usagi envisioned. She is rather naive in that way, thinking her kindness could always do the job (and it only did because she is the central character and the show revolved around her). Sometimes, sadly, sacrifices do have to be made, which the Outers understand. It's not like they necessarily want to do it, but they know it is necessary to do.

What the root of Usagi's decisions are: she thinks everyone is inherently good, which is completely, 1000000% false.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   8th September 2012, 3:48 pm

Amen lady tuxedo! I believe the outers were right when it came to doing their job and honestly the only people who would think otherwise or those people who believe Usagi is supreme over all and all knowing, but she's not. She's still human and has faults! That's like saying someone who killed millions of people has some good in them when In reality they don't because they are pure evil and have no soul.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   8th September 2012, 3:57 pm

Yes. Exactly, Anjyu. Very Happy

Keep in mind, however, that we do not, by any means, hate Usagi or think she sucks or anything like that. We just think there's just some things Usagi doesn't understand because she's naive.

You saw the results in Super when she gave Mistress 9 the Holy Grail. If I were Uranus and Neptune, I'd be very pissed off too. And want to kick her ass in the episode after (and see if she's even worthy of being the princess/leader, etc. after all that). The world was nearly destroyed because of Usagi (proving Usagi's human-ness aka she has flaws). Why? Because she wanted to save Hotaru ultimately. She kind of tossed the rest of the world out the window for Hotaru. Flaw.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th September 2012, 5:08 am

The funny thing is that for me the most times when Usagi's kindness becomes flaw is with regard to H&Mi Smile She really should stand up to them and tell them off. Galaxia however did

As for naivety - IMO nothing beats H&Mi believing Galaxia to be so stupid as to give them bracelets, which can defeat her. Usagi isn't naive; she has her system of values and acts according to them. And she doesn't believe everybody to be inherently good, but nobody to be inherently bad, which I don't believe to be false - only pure Chaos is evil.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th September 2012, 9:37 am

Usagi is naive. She is, at S, 15-16. Regardless of destiny and becoming a senshi, she is still a teenager who had no real training for how to handle situations. She was pretty much told from the get go to just jump in and get rid of the bad guy. There were no "senshi training sessions" to help these girls deal with situations in the most efficient manner. Her idealistic methods work, but she takes huge risks when she is specifically told the dangers of taking that risk, for example Mistress 9 and Saturn.

The end of S anime highlights her naivety. Haruka and Michiru told her what would happen if Saturn awoke. This was their mission: not to awake Saturn. Destruction on a global scale is not something that should be handled lightly, and Haruka and Michiru knew that. They told Usako the very real dangers of awakening Saturn. Usako knew the dangers and still saved Saturn. She risked everything she was fighting for to save a young girl. Yes, she is naive. She was lucky; Saturn was not the malevolent senshi Michiru and Haruka thought she was. Usako, Michiru, and Haruka had no way of knowing Saturn would be so.

Haruka and Michiru used tactics that they believed were the only way to save the world because they wanted to ensure the world's safety. In the end, there was nothing wrong with their tactics, just like there is nothing wrong with Usako's, because the world was saved and Hotaru was saved. Is it realistic? No, but in universe, it kinda is~

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th September 2012, 10:40 am

True that they had no way of knowing, how Sailor Saturn would turn out - but therefore H&Mi attempt on Hotaru's life can be judged even more harshly.

Usagi is 15-16 in this arcH&Mi in manga, but in anime just turns 15 in S and 16 in Stars.

H&Mi have much less experience than Usagi and Inners, who faced danger four times, including R movie.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th September 2012, 11:39 pm

Their attempt shouldn't be judged more harshly if they didn't know. If that were the case, then Usa should also be judged just as harshly for allowing a senshi who has the power the destroy the world to awaken. Both sides had no idea what would happen when Saturn awoke. Each did what they believed was the correct way to deal with the situation. Because of that, I don't judge either side negatively.

Usa and the Inners may have more experience, but they still lack the maturity to handle things in the most efficient way; like I pointed out with Usagi in Super.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th September 2012, 11:45 pm

Bravo, bravo, bravo, Cupcake.

@Lady Moonlight: You can't say whether or not either that the Outers have less experience. When they awakened is left up to speculation since it was never clarified when exactly this happened. They were just introduced later. Maybe they were off handling baddies elsewhere and we don't know it (great spin off idea! Cheers)

I'm kinda getting the vibe you don't like Haruka and Michiru, Moonlight Lady Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   10th September 2012, 11:26 am

Well, Setsuna was for ridding the world of Hotaru as well, and in my opinion, she must have the most experience out of anyone when it comes to dealing with situations like this. She might not have a lot of physical experience because she spends most of her time at the Time Gate, but I've always believed that she sees what goes on, and is able to watch as everyone goes through the dangers.

And if the Senshi of Time, who has probably seen countless lifetimes, is worried about what might happen if this girl awakens as a senshi, I think most people should worry too.

In the end, though, the Outer Senshi were trying to save the world in the way they felt was necessary. Regardless if people agree with their tactics or not, you can't really be too harsh on them for trying.

Besides, Usagi almost did destroy the world because of her idealism and her intent on saving one girl. Sure, it worked out in the end. But what if it *hadn't*? At least the Outer Senshi had a surefire plan that would have stopped it before it had ever gotten that bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   10th September 2012, 12:37 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Well, Setsuna was for ridding the world of Hotaru as well, and in my opinion, she must have the most experience out of anyone when it comes to dealing with situations like this. She might not have a lot of physical experience because she spends most of her time at the Time Gate, but I've always believed that she sees what goes on, and is able to watch as everyone goes through the dangers.

And if the Senshi of Time, who has probably seen countless lifetimes, is worried about what might happen if this girl awakens as a senshi, I think most people should worry too.

In the end, though, the Outer Senshi were trying to save the world in the way they felt was necessary. Regardless if people agree with their tactics or not, you can't really be too harsh on them for trying.

Besides, Usagi almost did destroy the world because of her idealism and her intent on saving one girl. Sure, it worked out in the end. But what if it *hadn't*? At least the Outer Senshi had a surefire plan that would have stopped it before it had ever gotten that bad.

Exactly. The world (and Usagi) has to come first, which the Outers understood. Not everything works out all nicely and wrapped in a bow like Usagi wants in life. I mean, I wish that's how life worked; don't we all. But the Outers (and others in the world) understand that it doesn't work that way. :/

I love reading your posts, Verdandi.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   12th September 2012, 12:19 pm

@MandarinCupcake wrote:
Their attempt shouldn't be judged more harshly if they didn't know. If that were the case, then Usa should also be judged just as harshly for allowing a senshi who has the power the destroy the world to awaken. Both sides had no idea what would happen when Saturn awoke. Each did what they believed was the correct way to deal with the situation. Because of that, I don't judge either side negatively.

Usa and the Inners may have more experience, but they still lack the maturity to handle things in the most efficient way; like I pointed out with Usagi in Super.

Almost every individual do what they believe to be the correct way of dealing with any situation and it doesn't mean it can't be judged.

And in the situation of potential murder and not knowing all the details, the burden of proof was on the Outers side, so Usagi and tbeir stances aren't really comparable.

I think that Usagi in S has got really mature as the leader and warrior and she finally fully embraced the "love and justice" part of her introduction. How important is to save the world on her terms.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   12th September 2012, 12:57 pm

In S: She gets potentially more mature after all was said and done. Whether you want to see it or not, she did mess up. She did. There is no other way to spin that. Usagi. Messed. Up. That was the whole point of the problem. That's why Saturn finally emerged. Because Usagi had messed up and Saturn needed to clean it all up. Hence why Haruka and Michiru was so pissed. If it was not for Saturn, there'd be no earth. It'd be game over. That whole thing with Usagi pulling out her heart crystal and becoming like Super Sailor Moon was basically to retrieve baby Hotaru/Saturn. But Saturn took care of Usagi's mess.

And if you honestly think Usagi is flawless/perfect/a goddess/etc. etc., I suggest going through the entire series again and paying closer attention.

I love Usagi I do, but she does mess up, she is flawed, and she's not perfect. That's why I love her.

Usagi is a very naive girl for thinking you can resolve problems with peace and love. Don't we all wish that could be true? But life does not work that way. And I'm sure Usagi learns that one day. Especially if she really is Sailor Cosmos.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   12th September 2012, 4:45 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
In S: She gets potentially more mature after all was said and done. Whether you want to see it or not, she did mess up. She did. There is no other way to spin that. Usagi. Messed. Up. That was the whole point of the problem. That's why Saturn finally emerged. Because Usagi had messed up and Saturn needed to clean it all up. Hence why Haruka and Michiru was so pissed. If it was not for Saturn, there'd be no earth. It'd be game over. That whole thing with Usagi pulling out her heart crystal and becoming like Super Sailor Moon was basically to retrieve baby Hotaru/Saturn. But Saturn took care of Usagi's mess.

This. So much. Thank you, Lady T, I couldn't have said it better myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th September 2012, 10:58 am

I officially wrote in discussion about this topic that I don't find Usagi a goddess and I can find witnesses.

And I don't think that Usagi is perfect - I think that most people, barring advanced sociopaths, would find the idea of murdering little girl, just because she can do something in future (but maybe won't).

Saturn emerged because of Usagi actions, but also was able to change her destiny and save the world, because of it. Love gave her streght to do it.

And I hope that H&Mi learnt finally with Galaxia's assistance that dirty methods don't pay.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th September 2012, 12:22 pm

.....Hotaru at the time had Mistress 9 in her....I think that's grounds to killing her for the greater good of the world. It wasn't based on the 'future' like she as a girl is gonna do bad things. In S it was because she was possessed by Mistress 9

If you are talking about Hotaru/Saturn having their destiny changed....no? She still destroyed Pharaoh 90...she still died....and she was reborn again. You can't get rid of Saturn. Death and rebirth are her thing. She didn't escape her destiny.

I wouldn't go and call Haruka and Michiru's actions that they took against Galaxia as 'dirty' completely. I look at it as necessary. And it was. I don't have any idea on how you think it wasn't necessary but it was. They were desperate. Again it was thinking of the bigger picture, i.e. the world and Usagi. I'm actually saddened that you basically sit here and laugh, chastising Haruka and Michiru for their actions when they had a much greater goal in mind. You really need to give them more credit. At least they tried. The whole point is; you can't fix everything all nicely with "love and friendship". You really can't. Not everything can go that way.

If you want the truth, Usagi is very lucky that when she reached her hand out to Galaxia, that Galaxia reciprocated and took her hand (going off anime here). Darkness/chaos is pretty powerful. It could've snapped with more force, gripped Galaxia harder, and made her like slice off Usagi's hand or something and then murder her o_o plus, remember, since Usagi is the central character, naturally everything is going to go her way. Imagine if this series had been aimed at adults.

And again, if you missed it the first time I posted it, Usagi does learn that, especially if she truly is Sailor Cosmos in the future. She learns this. She just needed to face the correct circumstances and mature.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th September 2012, 1:15 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And I don't think that Usagi is perfect - I think that most people, barring advanced sociopaths, would find the idea of murdering little girl, just because she can do something in future (but maybe won't).

I guess I am an advanced sociopath, then. Because I agree with what the outers were planning on doing.

We also have to bring into perspective that this isn't just normal innocent regular people that we are talking about. These are powerful beings with powerful magic that can do a lot of damage to the world. And the outers knew that bringing Sailor Saturn into the world would have dire consequences. Saturn is not an innocent little girl, she is a magical being with the power to destroy the world, and the outers were trying to prevent that from happening.

And it is true that *maybe* Saturn wouldn't have used her powers, but the last time Saturn was called, she did, and I think the outers remember this, or at least remember enough about it to know that they do not want it to happen again before it is needed.

Also, it's kind of part of the outers' job to bring Saturn into the world when the situation is at its most dire---their talismans are what conjure her up, aren't they? But they weren't the ones to summon her this time, and they wanted to stop what was happening before it could go bad and the world was destroyed.

And again I say: they don't deserve to die just because their tactics differ from Sailor Moon's.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th September 2012, 2:31 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
And I hope that H&Mi learnt finally with Galaxia's assistance that dirty methods don't pay.
Just because you don't agree with their methods doesn't make them "dirty." Michiru and Haruka keep things in perspective. Their goals are to keep the world and their Princess safe. Even if they have to keep it safe from her [like in S].
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   14th September 2012, 11:52 am

*cries* Guys... I didn't get the notifications and I'm doomed now ;___; So that's why I haven't posted in a while on this topic... I'm sorry I cannot answer y'all separately now >___
Amen Tuxie, Verdandi and Mandarin!

You cannot blame Haruka and Michiru for their actions, you have no rights to say anything about them deserving to die because that is wrong. Like said before Usagi's tactics would not work in real life. Haruka and Michiru understand that sometimes you have to sacrifice somebody to save the world. They do not want any victims but they know that if there's no other way they have to accept that fact and deal with it. Their methods are not 'dirty', they are realistic. In the Stars Haruka and Michiru knew stepping on Galaxia’s side and trying to kill her then was the only way and chance they had left to fight anymore. They knew their own powers were no match to Galaxia’s and that they’d just all die if they didn’t come up with a plan. They decided to step on Galaxia’s side and pretend to be her soldiers waiting for a chance to kill her. They were desperate to save the world no matter what sacrifices they had to make. So they gave everything they had to save the world, knowing that they’d end up in hell if they failed. They were strong enough to make a decision which no other senshi would've been able to make. Besides they know things won't always be fixed like Usagi hopes. You can't always settle things up like Usagi wants, we only see this since she's the main character and everything goes like she thinks. But that is not how things work in real life. We all know that for sure.

And Usagi. did. screw. up. Deal with it. She really did in Super. It was her fault the world was almost destroyed since she gave the grail to Mistress 9 not listening to Haruka and Michiru and Saturn was the one who had to clean all the mess up. That was what Haruka and Michiru tried to avoid to the very end. Saturn's destiny didn't change, she was reborn to awaken again.

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Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?

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