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 Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   14th September 2012, 4:54 pm

Tsuki-no-Kagayaki wrote:
They decided to step on Galaxia’s side and pretend to be her soldiers waiting for a chance to kill her. They were desperate to save the world no matter what sacrifices they had to make. So they gave everything they had to save the world, knowing that they’d end up in hell if they failed.

I just wanted to comment on this. I think Neptune and Uranus knew that even if they *succeeded* that they would be doomed anyway. And yet they still went through with it. That one last effort to save the world in the only opening they saw at the time.

I love them <3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   14th September 2012, 5:21 pm

Saw this on tumblr.



Do you see? Haruka loves Usagi and would lay everything on the line for her princess. So yes, in the scheme of things, no matter what she and Michiru resort to, it's for the greater good of Usagi (and the world).

And yes of course I know what this scan is from and who Haruka is most likely talking about that's for another thread.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   14th September 2012, 5:41 pm

Verdandi- hey love I mentioned the same thing in the other thread so somehow I didn't mention it here *cries* I meant to write it here >.> *beats her head against a wall* I'm so stupid >___

Haruka and Michiru knew that if they were able to kill Galaxia they'd die and end up in hell anyway because the only things that kept them alive were Galaxia's bracelets and when she'd die they would vanish just like the bracelets and end up to the same place as Galaxia. They had become Galaxia's soldiers and were to have the same destiny as she and were to vanish for eternity, never being reborn again. It was their last chance and they were able to give all they had to save the world.

I'm not called CG's HaruMichitic for nothing <3 I love them to pieces

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   14th September 2012, 5:52 pm

@Tsuki: There's been so much discussion, it's hard to remember everything that has been said in all of it xD I knew that you probably knew about what I had posted previously, but I just honed in on the wording of it I guess xD

You definitely are the HaruMichitic~!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   14th September 2012, 5:57 pm

Verdandi wrote:
@Tsuki: There's been so much discussion, it's hard to remember everything that has been said in all of it xD I knew that you probably knew about what I had posted previously, but I just honed in on the wording of it I guess xD

You definitely are the HaruMichitic~!

That's so true XD! I wish I'd save everything I write somewhere >.>

! *hugs Verdandi*

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 12:35 pm

I think in order to properly understand Haruka and Michiru's actions and their motivations, you need to understand something about moral philosophy. Haruka and Michiru are moral consequentalists. Moral consequentalists believe that moral actions should be decided on what brings the greatest amount of happiness to the greatest amount of people. In Haruka and Michiru's case, they thought that sacrificing innocent victims to save the world would bring about the greatest amount of happiness for the greatest amount of people, thus that would be moral for them. Whereas saving one person at the expense of millions of other people on Earth would be immoral to Haruka and Michiru.

Usagi, on the other hand, is a moral absolutist. She sees morality in absolute black and white terms of good versus evil. For Usagi, sacrificing someone to save another is always immoral and wrong no matter what the consequences of her actions are or if they make everything worse. A popular thought experiment in philosophy used to justify moral consequentalist theory is the trolley dilemma. The idea behind the trolley dilemma is to imagine you're on a runaway trolley and there's no way to stop it. You get to a point on the tracks where you have to flip the switch to change lanes. On one track, you have five people tied to the track and on another track, you have one person tied to the track. You have no way to stop the track and all you can do is flip the switch to decide what track to go on, so what track do you choose?

Haruka and Michiru would fall in the camp who would flip the switch to save the five people tied to the track. Scientific studies have proven that most people in society would side with Haruka and Michiru and flip the switch to save five people at the expense of the one. In the fantasy world of anime where you can invent magical powers to use as deus ex machinas to get out of any sticky situations you want, Usagi may be in the "right," but philosohpy and science have shown that in the real world, Haruka and Michiru would be more in the "right" than Usagi.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:14 pm

Wow that was an awesome read Neon, I love this kind of stuff. <3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:22 pm

Well, no.

Philosophy and science cannot prove that one moral philosophy is better or more right than another.

Philosophy can just discuss assumptions and consequences of both ethics. Science may sometimes add some arguments for one or another, but it has no bearing on moral philosophy.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:29 pm

Neon never said that the philosophy was right or not, though. The stuff that was talking about was pretty equal in both sides. I think Neon was just presenting an educated argument to both sides.

And I think philosophy does have bearing on morals, doesn't it? I always thought that was kind of the point of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:32 pm

Also, Ethics is a type of philosophy that deals specifically with character and the thought processes behind right and wrong behavior. So I think it does have a lot to do with the points that Neon brought up.

I think it was a really neat analysis using real world findings for our morality debate over fictional characters.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:36 pm

I was referring to this:

"philosohpy and science have shown that in the real world, Haruka and Michiru would be more in the "right" than Usagi."

Philosophy does have bearing of morals and ethics is part of it, but philosophy never proved that consequentialism is better or more right than deontologism.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:38 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Well, no.

Philosophy and science cannot prove that one moral philosophy is better or more right than another.

Philosophy can just discuss assumptions and consequences of both ethics. Science may sometimes add some arguments for one or another, but it has no bearing on moral philosophy.
People always say science has nothing to do with morality but I think it informs our choices more often than we think. Like reproductive health influences our decisions we make in regards to human sexuality, economic science of course influences our economic policies, sociology influences how we view and treat other cultures, and environmental science influences have how we treat the environment.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:42 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
I was referring to this:

"philosohpy and science have shown that in the real world, Haruka and Michiru would be more in the "right" than Usagi."

Philosophy does have bearing of morals and ethics is part of it, but philosophy never proved that consequentialism is better or more right than deontologism.

Well over all, I think coming to a conclusion as to whether something is "right" or "wrong" is really impossible.

People are complex, and people will believe something different than the person next to them. A person could go on and on about something being "right" and another person could go on and on about how that same thing is "wrong".

And as such, I think this whole conversation and topic is kind of a standstill thing, because there is no way one person will be able to convince another person to believe something other than what they already believe.

What I mean is this: I believe Haruka and Michiru were right in their actions 100%. But you, Moonlight Lady, believe that they are wrong 100%. And no matter what I say, I will not change your mind, and just like you will never be able to change my mind.

Everyone has their own set of morals and their own beliefs, and I think it's kind of impossible to change them.

And because of that, I am going to stay out of this debate from now on because I get too passionate about it


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 1:43 pm

And about anime and real life:

I don't think anime Sailor Moon ever used deus ex machinae to get out of sticky situations.

The problem with trolley dilemma is that it's thought experiment - good for reflection and discussion. But in real world nothing is so clear-cut and you rarely get only two options. So anime world, despite use of magical powers, is more like reality.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 8:04 pm

The only reason Usagi was proven "right" in the anime was because she got lucky and Hotaru was able to break free of Mistress 9's control. If Usagi gave the Holy Grail to Mistress 9 and Hotaru didn't break free, then that would have been the end of the Earth and humanity and Usagi's actions would have been wrong. Toei could have just as easily written the story so Hotaru failed and the world was destroyed and gave the series a tragic ending if Sailor Moon was that kind of show. The whole question of whether Usagi was right or not rests on the convenient plot device of Hotaru breaking free and I don't think it would be wise to judge Usagi's rightness based on such a risky and flimsy decision.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   29th September 2012, 8:19 pm

I agree completely with you neon! I think it was a very bad decision on her part but of course all fans who believe Usagi is supreme and basically a deity like figure can argue everything she does is perfect but she knows all but she's a human being like everyone else and many seem to forget that. Neptune and Uranus had way more common sense in doing what they did than Usagi did in my opinion but it's a cartoon so let's just let it go. --_-;

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 8:48 am

I completely agree with you Neon! This is just what we have tried to point out in this debate !

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 4:17 pm

I still think, by the in-world standards of Sailor Moon, Haruka and Michiru are NOT justified, it is pointless to judge them by our real world standards because, well, its not the real world. In the Sailor Moon series, Usagi is almost always in the right, ESPECIALLY when it comes to situations like this. I believe the point of Haruka and Michiru's behaviour is to directly contrast against Usagi's purity and innocence, which overcomes Haruka and Michiru, since the good is usurping the "bad", by the standards set by the series, they are simply just not justified. If Usagi says no, it means "no". When you start using "if", you are beginning to deviate away from the facts in the series and you may end up using your own personal headcanons accidentally, so be careful.

I don't think Usagi "gets lucky" in this series, the series continuously implies that Destiny is a great controlling factor, although it is possible to deviate from it (as Nehelenia did in the anime and as Apsu did in Another Story), Usagi's destiny has been dictated by her Past, she, like Venus and Pluto have resigned to it (the reverse of this happens in PGSM, where they all struggle to go against Destiny, successfully beating it, I may add, but for Myu, Mang and Anime everything tends to revolve around a set Destiny. So we must view PGSM separately but luckily its not relevant here) and thus will not attempt to change Fate. Saturn was destined to reawaken and so she did, Haruka and Michiru were not destined to stop Saturn's awakeningsbut to guard the Solar System from Outside Threats (Pharaoh 90, Mistress 9, Shadow Galactica etcetera), I believe they misunderstood their mission, as Saturn is not an external threat, from Ms. Takeuchi's point of view their behaviour is probably an attempt to counter the idea that idealism is futile.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 4:27 pm

@Miki

You're making her sound like a (perfect) goddess though when she's not.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 4:31 pm

Usagi isn't perfect, but her idealism is what will always conquer, I'm talking about in context of her battles against Chaos.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 4:33 pm

Well, the show is called Sailor Moon. It's about her. It's going to be about her. What she says/does, goes. But, I really don't think that makes her word or what she does always right.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 4:35 pm

I didn't say that though, I said almost always. In this case, she was right because Haruka and Michiru's actions resulted in next to nothing while Usagi's compassion lead to the awakening of a girl who has as much right to exist as anyone else.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 4:45 pm

They at least try. They're not afraid to do what they feel is necessary.

Really, kindness, compassion, love, etc. hardly ever works. But again, it's a show about Usagi. So, yeah, of course she's gonna win out. But that doesn't mean Haruka and Michiru are wrong either. If you're referencing Hotaru in Super, they feared her and what she could do. I standby they misunderstood the purpose of Saturn. However, Hotaru was possessed by Mistress 9. Most people, except Usagi, would be like "um...we gotta kill her...". And in this instance, I will say yes, Usagi got lucky that Hotaru managed to break free of Mistress 9's grasp, destroy her, and ultimately kill Pharaoh 90. Usagi does mess up sometimes, showing her imperfection.

Also, what was Usagi going to do in the anime in Stars? o_o all her friends around her were dying and she did not want to fight anymore. She got lucky again that she was able to reach through to Galaxia. Had the show been a little darker, her butt probably would've been beat and the world, done.

To be honest, I'm glad Usagi's imperfect and that Super showed that she can mess up and sometimes someone else needs to take care of the situation. That shows that 1) the senshi aren't useless and are capable of doing their duty and 2) that Usagi is flawed. I don't like thinking of her as "perfect" or a "goddess", or that her word/actions are always correct or anything else like that. It's boring.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 4:58 pm

But that's the point, the series isn't about "the greater good and harsh reality", it's about love and justice and how that will usurp all others, I think you're still seeing it from your real world view. Within the series, we are shown over and over and over again that what will conquer is a pure heart and kindness. In S, we are directly comparing two ideas, one "for the sake of reality, we must make sacrifices" and "for the sake of my ideals, we must protect everyone". These ideas are mutually exclusive, they cannot both be correct. In the real world, yes, Haruka and Michiru are justified, in the world of the series, no they are not simply because Usagi's purity and idealism once again overcomes their way of doing things, we see this again later in the Stars where their underhanded techniques against Galaxia are scorned immediately by the Sailor Starlights and Usagi (who all outlive Haruka and Michiru might I add). This has nothing to do with Usagi "being perfect", it is about her beliefs and her compassion for all who deserve it will always succeed, this is at the very core of the series, this is what is discussed time and time again, the S series merely makes an attempt to disprove this idea, but once again, even after struggle and hardship, Usagi's compassion wins once again. There is nothing to say that compassion and idealism will immediately succeed, but in time, it always will. Maybe not in real life, but in Sailor Moon, always. *nods* I really think you guys are overcomplicating it, take it back to the very essence of the series. We are taught of love, friendship, kindness, compassion, justice and how that will always triumph in the face of danger and doubt. Usagi's imperfections are, I believe, to humanise Usagi in order to make her easier to identify with and to make us want to follow in her beliefs even more. Everybody loves the underdog. "What if" statements are redundant. If it did not happen, it was not meant to happen.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   13th October 2012, 5:14 pm

*Adding*

By the way, don't get me wrong, I am look at the series from an analytically point of view, when it comes to a work like this, I absolutely refuse to judge the original creator's point of view within the series. I do not believe Usagi's actions are justified personally, but within the word of series Sailor Moon that Naoko Takeuchi has created, it is clearly indicated again and again that Usagi is a model of love and justice and no matter how tough, she will break through with compassion, even if it looks like she gets lucky, isn't something more than just idle luck if she gets lucky so frequently?

When you start to question what the creator has put in, we are getting into the murky area of personal judgement and I absolutely just refuse to do that for this X3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 1:19 pm

I don't think Usagi "got lucky" with Mistress Nine-Hotaru or Galaxia - being "lucky" means some random coincidence, yet it was her constant belief in their possible humanity, which helped their redemption. I don't see it as Usagi's failure.

As for Ha&Mi actions I can't see any justifications for taking Usagi's brooch, leaving her powerless. Or for not checking whether Professor Tomoe is alive, when they killed the daimon possessing him. Finally, taking Hotaru from her father was cruel and unnecessary.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 2:13 pm

Random two cents

Manga/Anime wise- I think they were justified in what they were doing and what they believe is right. Me, personally, I don't see it as a 'right or wrong' deal more like different methods to try and get a good ending.

Pushing aside the idea of the entire show (and manga) being a 'Love can do all' (where was that for Tin Nyanko in the manga?), Haruka and Michiru were right. Pluto were right.

Why- they only have limited information and the Inners are no better informed about the function of Saturn.

I mean, the Outers' last memories are of Sailor Saturn dropping her glaive and ending their lives (well Neptune/Uranus) and the Silver Millennium.

How could they know she's on their side if she ended their beloved world? From their point of view, they're trying to prevent this horrible thing from happening again.

Shouldn't that also be a testament to how much THEY also love this world? Love their princess? Wanting the best?

In the manga, they take Hotaru because Dr. Tomoe and his soul were no more. He's dead- even Hotaru's spirit knows this. <- thus justified in taking the infant Hotaru.

Anime wise, I have no idea why Tomoe gave up his daughter so easily. Was there a deal between him and Pluto? She seems to know where he and Hotaru were. Really, why give Hotaru to him if you're going to come back a short time later and take her back?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 2:30 pm

Quote :
Pushing aside the idea of the entire show

But as soon as you do this, you are taking the series out of context and placing your own real-world understandings and perceptions onto a fictional world. Which is a little redundant... There is nothing to say you must agree with the ideas present in Sailor Moon, however it is erroneous to ignore these on the basis that you do not agree.

Sailor Moon =/= The Real World

The manga does not directly grant compassion to every villain, the manga is much harsher and instead only seems to grant compassion to those who apparently "deserve" it. Nonethless, Usagi is still portrayed as an idealistic dreamer. It is not as contradictory as it seems. Usagi is still human. Tin Nyanko may have been destroyed for being a murderer but there is still the implications she can will reborn again. This is different from misunderstood Hotaru who was hated for no real reason.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 2:40 pm

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :
Pushing aside the idea of the entire show

But as soon as you do this, you are taking the series out of context and placing your own real-world understandings and perceptions onto a fictional world. Which is a little redundant... There is nothing to say you must agree with the ideas present in Sailor Moon, however it is erroneous to ignore these on the basis that you do not agree.

Sailor Moon =/= The Real World

The manga does not directly grant compassion to every villain, the manga is much harsher and instead only seems to grant compassion to those who apparently "deserve" it. Nonethless, Usagi is still portrayed as an idealistic dreamer. It is not as contradictory as it seems. Usagi is still human. Tin Nyanko may have been destroyed for being a murderer but there is still the implications she can will reborn again. This is different from misunderstood Hotaru who was hated for no real reason.

I don't ignore it, but I'm looking at it more from their point of veiw. Idealism isn't too much of a thing for them.

Also we do know she didn't murder the Lunar Cats at all afterwards.

But I don't have issues with the manga in how it portrays Usagi or anything. In fact the harshness is why I prefer it over the anime.

I think the main issue is Anime-only version where they really amped those things up.

And yeah, I do tend to apply real world logic to a fictional world because the fictional world has some basis in the real world. It's not terribly bad to do that on occassion.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 2:54 pm

We do know Sailor Tin Nyanko killed Sailor Mau though...

It depends on the particular point of discussion. If the real world and the fictional world sync in an issue, then I suppose it is okay, but if they do not such as here, it makes an argument terribly biased. Discussing literature must be seen within the context of the work, once it is not, then the discussion descends into pure speculation and mostly nonsensical logic. It is really not a good idea to apply your own personality into a story when you are trying to discuss it. If you are writing fanfiction or trying to enjoy it as a story. Go right ahead, but when it comes to debating, its not really good reasoning. I think it is important to tell the difference between a fact-based discussion like this one and an opinion-based discussion. The opinion-based discussion equivalent of this would be "Do you agree with Usagi's actions in the Infinity arc", then one can apply whatever their own feelings they want

In short for this issue:

Within Sailor Moon: Two ideas are suggested. Usagi vs. Haruka+Michiru. Usagi is proven to have been right, as Hotaru is saved and Silence is prevented without sacrificing her life without her consent, the story swings in favour of Usagi's idealism against Haruka and Michiru's realism as soon as the chain of events moves into that. Regardless of if you don't agree with Usagi being unpractical or are fangirling Haruka and Michiru and can't seem them being wrong isn't really the point.

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Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?

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