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 Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?

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ToriJ
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 3:21 pm

Haruka and Michiru's actions are understandable but I wouldn't agree that they are justifiable. Murder isn't justice. Hotaru was being persecuted for things beyond her control. She didn't choose to be the Soldier of Death and Rebirth, she was chosen to have that position and fulfill it. And it was a required position because without her (in the manga anyway from what I understand) the Senshi lives would have ended on the Moon. Haruka and Michiru let their fear get the better of them and had they succeeded an innocent person, friend and valuable future ally would have been lost to the Senshi forever. If I'm correct in assuming that killing Hotaru before Saturn had awakened would have ended the whole death/rebirth thing.

I can't comment on the Stars issue since I have yet to watch that season in full.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 3:35 pm

I think you're right about it being understandable, certainly not everyone in the Sailor Moon universe is idealistic as Usagi (if anyone).

I think I'm also talking about this not close enough to the physical storyline which you are doing much better than me XD

I'm not quite sure what you mean about
Quote :
and had they succeeded an innocent person,


I think the Outer Soldiers had much to learn from the Inner girls and the inners had much to learn from the outers, we see that pretty clearly in Dream and the Nehellenia arc.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 4:13 pm

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
I think you're right about it being understandable, certainly not everyone in the Sailor Moon universe is idealistic as Usagi (if anyone).

I think I'm also talking about this not close enough to the physical storyline which you are doing much better than me XD

I'm not quite sure what you mean about
Quote :
and had they succeeded an innocent person,


I think the Outer Soldiers had much to learn from the Inner girls and the inners had much to learn from the outers, we see that pretty clearly in Dream and the Nehellenia arc.

Hotaru wasn't guilty of anything. All of her crimes during the S season was due to the fact Mistress 9 was controlling her. She was a victim.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 7:19 pm

Quote :
Hotaru wasn't guilty of anything. All of her crimes during the S season was due to the fact Mistress 9 was controlling her. She was a victim.

Actually they outers wanted to kill her so that Sailor Saturn wouldn't be awakened, it wasn't just about Mistress 9 and it wasn't revealed until later that she was the host for Mistress 9. Her powers can bring about an Apocalyptic Silence.

The only reason they let her live is because Chibiusa and Usagi showed them she's a good person, and everyone deserves a chance and that Saturn is merely one side of her and she is a senshi and senshi should not fight among each other and stuff like that.

The senshi don't really say anything about crimes even though they are all about fighting evil.

As for if she has died the death/rebirth thing wouldn't have ended. That's like saying if Mars dies fire won't exist. They are gifted with powers that control elements but they are not the element itself so even if they die it doesn't mean there will be no more lighting or water or fire or death.

Also, when it comes to senshi, if they die they are merely reborn and recycled through the galaxy cordon. Sailor Saturn dies when she uses her apocalyptic power. That specific power is a double edged blade. She uses it she dies, much like if Pluto Stops Time she dies but they are senshi, they won't be dead forever.

She is the Soldier of Silence and Death, I never really understood the whole reborn thing.

As for justifiable, sadly, murder is not a good thing but yes, it is justice depending on the crime. If someone is trying to kill you, are you going to let them simply because you don't want to? Sometimes to stop and evil person, it takes death as an only option because some people will not stop. This however is a widely debated topic and there is never a clear answer to such a question because it all depends on the persons belief.

As for Haruka and Michiru being justified, they were. At least in the manga anyway. In the manga Saturn had awakened after Metallia and Beryl destroyed the Silver Millennium, and Saturn killed off the remains because her power is only activated when the power of Saturn deems all hope is lost, and so everything must die in order to subdue the evil infecting the world.

Pluto also wanted to stop her awakening and was on Haruka and Michiru's team so if anything, you just be including her in this. They felt the only way to ensure Saturn would not awaken and destroy the world they loved so much was to silence her before she could silence the world. They feared her power, and they feared an end to all they held dear. To me, there actions are justified.

However, Usagi and Chibiusa showed them there is more to her power. They realized she can heal, and someone who can heal can't really be evil. Super Sailor Moon put her life on the line to not only save Sailor Saturn but to bring her back as an infant, to give her a new chance at life. Their actions were justified, and their actions showed Haruka, Michiru and Setsuna that like them, Hotaru also deserves a second chance.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 7:32 pm

Pluto is really up for debate I think, she may have been in the Outer camp but she was screaming her head off when Saturn tried to sacrifice herself.

The Reincarnation thing is because only after Death can there be Life again, Life and Death are a cycle. So Saturn is the Soldier of Destruction and Birth.

Haruka and Michiru didn't really "let" Hotaru live did they? They were just stopped from doing so. But I'm going to have to double check on that.

But when Pluto died after Time Stop, it was implied she only came back because of NQS not because of the cycling of stars.

I also don't really understand your logic about "deeming all hope as lost", I always read the Silver Millennium thing with Saturn as she had to destroy it completely so a new era could begin. Saturn was never bringing Silence to the World, thats Mistress 9. I dont see how we can blame her for bringing the Silence when she is not even the Messiah of Silence. Her powers are misunderstood and feared I think.

I think Tori is right, they were not really justified, if they were, then Saturn would have been killed off right? We can understand their perspective and from a realistic approach. Sure they're doing what they think is best. But within the context of the story, I can't see them as justified just because of the way the plot pans out. Surely if they were justified, they would have succeeded in their methods rather than having someone with a conflicting idealogy step in and throw it back in their face. Justified in the real world, not so much in the story.

I just see that Naoko has negated their actions by showing them that compassion and idealism has overcome in the end.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 7:39 pm

Oh throwing this in here the musical "Mugen Gakuen ~ Mistress Labyrinth" that is directly based off the manga addresses this point directly. In the musical, the Silence does actually occur, Sailors Uranus Neptune and Pluto die all blaming Usagi and her idealistic ways for it. The next scene is Usagi standing all alone in the Silence, questioning if she was wrong all along. But of course after a bit of pondering, she is told by a voice (Damask) that she's still there because she wants to save everyone, and that power of wanting to save everyone makes the Crystal shine, and Super Sailor Moon manages to revive absolutely everyone, Saturn, the Outer Soldiers, her friends, even the Death Busters. With such a direct discussion of ideas, its hard for me to think any otherwise

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 8:19 pm

Quote :
Pluto is really up for debate I think, she may have been in the Outer camp but she was screaming her head off when Saturn tried to sacrifice herself.

But that was only after they had realized not to kill Saturn. When Saturn appeared their real concern was Pharaoh 90, and Saturn was helping them at this point. Their priories changes^^ but originally Pluto sided with Neptune and Uranus and not the others

Quote :
The Reincarnation thing is because only after Death can there be Life again, Life and Death are a cycle. So Saturn is the Soldier of Destruction and Birth.

That is a big part of her power but she only brings the death, she doesn't bring the life. The life is only there because of the universal balance. After every end there is a new beginning and to every beginning there is an end and so forth. Without her having finished off the remains of the silver millennium the evil would have still been there

Quote :
Haruka and Michiru didn't really "let" Hotaru live did they? They were just stopped from doing so. But I'm going to have to double check on that.

But they did let her live. They weren't stopped from killing her. Usagi and the others only delayed them, and Michiru and Haruka and Setsuna wanted to kill her but she awakened. They could have kept trying, they just decided not to kill her and take care of her instead. To me that's letting her live, especially because as a baby it would have been very easy to finish her off.

Quote :
But when Pluto died after Time Stop, it was implied she only came back because of NQS not because of the cycling of stars.

I agree! But I agree only because if NQS hadn't made it so that her star was reborn in the past with the others, then eventually Pluto would have been reborn through the Galaxy Cordon in the near of far future.

We don't find out this information however until the StarS manga saga but it's still the same series even if Naoko didn't get the idea for it until later on but that's how stories are made. Something we originally thought and believed could turn out to be opposite once we've read the whole story^^

Quote :
I also don't really understand your logic about "deeming all hope as lost", I always read the Silver Millennium thing with Saturn as she had to destroy it completely so a new era could begin. Saturn was never bringing Silence to the World, thats Mistress 9. I dont see how we can blame her for bringing the Silence when she is not even the Messiah of Silence. Her powers are misunderstood and feared I think.

When it comes to "deeming all hope is lost" is because that is the only time she ever uses her Apocalyptic powers. The power to bring about Silence, the power to kill everything containing life on the planet.

In the manga, it was about bringing an end to everything so that one day life can begin again. Saturn does not bring about a new era. Sailor Moon does. Saturn only finished off the hopeless remains of the Silver Millennium because it was already a lost cause. Everyone who could have stopped the evil was dead.

Saturn was going to use the power during the S saga because Pharaoh 90 was a being that could destroy the entire planet simply by crossing over completely into their dimension. If he got through, all hope would be lost and we see that in the premonitions on the outcome should he have actually completely broke through the barrier. She used the power in HIS dimension, and told Pluto to close off the dimension.

She would not have come back the same way if not again for the interference of Super Sailor Moon, in the manga, as Princess Serenity.

We see Saturn also wanting to use it against Nehelannia, saying if all hope is lost then she knows what she must do. Chibimoon stops her telling her not to give up hope, and that she should put her hope and faith in Sailor Moon and that Sailor Moon will save them and hope is not lost as long as there are people who can fight.

This is why I said when all hope is lost because we see her only using her power when all hope is lost. She has healing, she has a shield and in the manga she has another offensive attack but this one attack the power to end everything is only used as a last resort. when there really is no hope of the battle being won

Quote :
I think Tori is right, they were not really justified, if they were, then Saturn would have been killed off right? We can understand their perspective and from a realistic approach. Sure they're doing what they think is best. But within the context of the story, I can't see them as justified just because of the way the plot pans out. Surely if they were justified, they would have succeeded in their methods rather than having someone with a conflicting idealogy step in and throw it back in their face. Justified in the real world, not so much in the story.

I think they were justified because they were never allowed to be by the Queen and Princess they loved so much. they had other duties and posts and were powerless to stop the end of the Silver Millennium because they were not allowed to leave.

They were fearful of the new enemy but they believed they could defeat the enemy before all hope was lost. They wanted a chance to protect their princess, and be with the inners. In the manga they were merely protecting the princess and the inners. They wanted to be proactive instead of sit on the side-lines like they had in the Silver Millenium. this was a new life, where they could live and dream and do what they wanted and be with whom they wanted to be with.

IF Saturn was awakened, all of this would be lost because all the knowledge they had in their world, their past was that when the Talismen's resonated, Saturn would awaken and everything will die.

This right there is ALL they KNEW and that's scary! Especially because they had evidence it was TRUE! The Talismens resonated in the past, they watched as Saturn was awakened and destroyed every life left.

To me because of that they are justified. What a horrible thing it is to witness true and utter Silence. It must have made them feel very sad and very lonely. They must have also felt extremely happy when they discovered they had a second chance to save everything and stop Saturn so it didn't happen again.

They were justified, but the inners, Usagi and Chibiusa didn't know what had happened and they knew Hotaru. A kind sweet girl who seemed sad and lonely. They saw a friend. They believed that Hotaru couldn't possibly be evil.

So they all were justified.

Justice is not always kind, but justice should be equal and it WAS. The outers only wanted Saturn to die because they were afraid she would bring the end to everything. The inners wanted to spare Hotaru because they knew she was a good person.

In the end, the world was spared. Saturn spared them. In the end, Hotaru lives and is not only given a new chance at life but all the destruction her father had racked on her body was gone. It was a happy ending for everyone, and justice was actually served.

We can hate someone, and not know them and then, when we get to know them or they show us something incredible about themselves, our opinion changes, and they could be someone we love.

Quote :
I just see that Naoko has negated their actions by showing them that compassion and idealism has overcome in the end.

I agree!

This is what the story is saying. Do not judge. Do not let your fear blind you from the truth. Do not give up hope.

Quote :
Oh throwing this in here the musical "Mugen Gakuen ~ Mistress Labyrinth" that is directly based off the manga addresses this point directly. In the musical, the Silence does actually occur, Sailors Uranus Neptune and Pluto die all blaming Usagi and her idealistic ways for it. The next scene is Usagi standing all alone in the Silence, questioning if she was wrong all along. But of course after a bit of pondering, she is told by a voice (Damask) that she's still there because she wants to save everyone, and that power of wanting to save everyone makes the Crystal shine, and Super Sailor Moon manages to revive absolutely everyone, Saturn, the Outer Soldiers, her friends, even the Death Busters. With such a direct discussion of ideas, its hard for me to think any otherwise

I can't wait till I can see this version completely! I love that we get some many versions! Do you think they'll keep making more now that there is a new anime?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 8:49 pm

That is a big part of her power but she only brings the death, she doesn't bring the life. The life is only there because of the universal balance. After every end there is a new beginning and to every beginning there is an end and so forth. Without her having finished off the remains of the silver millennium the evil would have still been there

I think its implied she can she just doesn't in the course of the series, with the exception of Dream Soldiers where she fully uses her capabilities on Mamoru. She leaves it usually to Usagi or else should wouldnt be labelled "Soldier of Destruction and Birth"

Yes but Sailor Moon's power can only be used after Saturn's destructive ones. Surely they decided to keep her as a baby because of learning about Usagi's compassion. You have to admit Haruka and Michiru are not the most compassionate of Soldiers in the infinity arc.

I agree with your principles about why Haruka and Michiru are doing what they do, I do not blame them at all and don't think any less of them but I do not think within the story, Naoko justified their actions, I think she removed this justification when their actions failed and Usagi's idealistic ones came through once again.

Sailor Moon is a VERY idealistic series, we do not have to agree with it in the real world. But for an in-series context, where it is very idealistic and la-dee-da and everything will work out. Usagi believes in this particularly, and this belief gets her through the hardship of the Infinity arc. She is the Messiah. Her kindness and compassion brings the good to everything, her hope and faith conquers in the end, not Haruka and Michiru's realistic approach to things. Setunsa is a little wavering, she seems to be in two minds. This is why I think they cannot be justified. Here Usagi's idealogy is victorious, not theirs, so within the story (though I completely agree in the real world, Michiru and Haruka are definitely justified), they cannot possibly be. There is not a combining of the two ideas, it is a total usurping. Usagi's ideal dreamer optimistic ways completely overwhelm the alternative, so Haruka and Michiru aren't really justified in their approach to being Soldiers. Understandable and justified to us in the real world but in Naoko Takeuchi's idealistic world of Sailor Moon, not really. Especially as their opinions change afterwards, in all versions of the series, Haruka and Michiru lighten up and follow Usagi around a lot more after accepting her views. Anime: "those girls can handle it" Myu: the very song "HEREAFTER...", Manga: returning to help out when Usagi needs them. Usagi does not believe in sacrificing the innocent even for the greater good, Usagi is the voice of morality, love and justice in the series, so we must take what she says as what is "right" above anything else.

So I really think it just depends on the perspective, in the eyes of Usagi and the general series, no, in real world application, yes. In Haruka and Michiru's eyes, most definitely. But if Usagi disagrees, we should probably also disagree. Usagi is almost never put in a bad light when it comes to big issues. I'm struggling to think of an instance where she makes a mistake when it comes to this sort of thing... The only real mistake she's made is as Princess Serenity, and we know that they are not really the same person.

I really really think its dependent on what your definition of "justified" and in the context you are using that word for. So I think you're right too nerf!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 9:48 pm

It really depends on what series you're talking about. The manga is the manga, the anime is the anime and the musicals are the musicals. They are all basically the same thing but they aren't so you can't use use an anime reference for discussing a manga thing and so forth because the events, characters and another things are either added(new has no connection only that it was inspired by the manga) or removed things which makes it different and changing things so they are all different stories.

I don't know much about the musicals yet but with the anime and manga their are similarities and differences. The S saga is hardly the same story in each.

Spoiler:
 

So really the two series are very different and the reason I use the manga as a way of explaining things is because without the manga the anime, the musicals the game everything inspired by Sailor Moon wouldn't even exist.

Quote :
I think its implied she can she just doesn't in the course of the series, with the exception of Dream Soldiers where she fully uses her capabilities on Mamoru. She leaves it usually to Usagi or else should wouldnt be labelled "Soldier of Destruction and Birth"

It wasn't implied in the manga or anime, but if it was in the musicals that is awesome! What capabilities were used on Mamoru? I don't remember that in the manga or anime :/

<3

When it comes to the reality of Sailor Moon being more idealistic then realistic i can agree but I disagree on Naoko trying to make them seem justified and I think the explanation is more realistic.

The manga portrayed the inners as good with a very real sense of fear in a devastating power and they merely mean to protect them, and almost seem to wish to do it themselves because they know it's morally wrong and it is something the others wouldn't be able to do. so they take this hard job on themselves.

The reason for this is because Naoko's manga is idealistic but it also addresses the serious issues. This is shown in Hotaru's power alone. Hotaru is a good person and a fellow senshi but she does hold a power misunderstood and feared, a power derived of hopelessness.

-You can think of it like this. In the hospital there is a patient unable to speak or move, there body is racked with pain and they are suffering and they are going to die anyway and there isn't even any brain activity left, the only brain activity is that of pain signals.

It is sad because it is a lost cause, and in reality, these sad things happen. The doctors give the family an option. Life-support, or to cut the cord. Let their suffering come to an end. Silence their pain and let them die peacefully.

Choosing to cut the cord is a double edged blade. to let go of a love one who is in this suffering, hopeless condition is sometimes a necessary evil. Death, is a necessary evil. those that are responsible for someone in this condition sometimes can't choose and leave the job to someone else. Those that do say ok, cut the plug, are left with not only the death of their loved one but an immense sense of guilt, sorrow and hopelessness. they should not feel guilty, because like a dog who is dying and suffering, we were merely trying to be humane, to end their suffering. It is a terrible burden to bare.

And Saturn bares this burden.

Saturn's power is just like that. It is a very sad thing. It is finality, it is death but sometimes, it is necessary.

This is also why the outers thought that it was necessary to kill Hotaru. A necessary evil.

When it comes to life, we can all agree on things like this. As a child I believed in Santa. As an adult, I don't. I was in love with my ex, I thought he'd never cheat on me. He cheated on me lol. The people of the past thought the earth was flat, they discovered it was round.

They are all justified here. Justice is about equality. It is not black and white the way that unfortunately, some governments believe.



The only reason they wanted her dead was because they feared Saturn would destroy the world.

The reason the others wanted her to live was because they knew her and believed she wasn't evil and that she wouldn't destroy the world.

Usagi is a very ideal character but she has murdered before and people forget, in the manga she had to murder all of her loved ones when Galaxia had taken control of them. A necessary evil she had to do, only while believing she could save them. Cosmos had lost her hope, and wanted to do a necessary evil. Destroy the entire galaxy by destroying the cordon. Sailor Moon had hope, and knew that evil would never really vanish. It's a balance. Light and Dark, Life and Death.

When it comes down to it they were all justified and that is a very realistic and idealistic possibility.

In a sense, both parties were right. they each had their reasoning's to justify their actions. Justified and justice are however not the same thing.

Haruka, Michiru and Setsuna were justified in not wanting Saturn to bring an end to their world. The justice was served when Saturn didn't.

The others wanted Hotaru to live, and they wanted better for her and they believed in her goodness. Justice was served because not only did she live, she got a chance most people don't. She got a chance to start over with a loving family and her health.

They all wanted Pharaoh 90 destroyed. Justice was served because it was.

Being justified doesn't matter as long as justice is served. This was a win win. Sometimes justice isn't a win win. Sometimes, it's a lose win. Sometimes justice doesn't win at all.

It's not so important as the how or why, just that it was and did in this case^^
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   9th March 2013, 10:52 pm

I know there are differences between all versions but at the very core of it, they're all the same:

Inners: Ermagerd, you can't just kill things!
Outers: Sacrifice must be made fro the greater good.

I'm saying its implied in her very title "Soldier of Destruction and Birth" in Japanese 破滅と誕生の戦士 (hametsu to tanjou no senshi). It appears in multiple versions. Not 100% in the anime but definitely in the manga and musicals. Also Death Reborn Revolution.

In the musical Dream Soldiers, Mamoru is killed, Saturn revives him with her powers. Saturn's song also uses the line, translated literally "I am Saturn, Saturn of Destruction, Saturn of Life".

Quote :
When it comes to the reality of Sailor Moon being more idealistic then realistic i can agree but I disagree on Naoko trying to make them seem justified and I think the explanation is more realistic.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Naoko has written Usagi as the main characters, the philosophy of the series is dictated by Usagi. With her grand speeches on love and justice constantly, its hard to deny. The series addresses serious issues, but it nearly always resolves them through idealistic methods.

I am not saying I don't understand why Haruka and Michiru thought it was necessary to kill Hotaru. Their reasoning makes perfect sense. I am not disputing this.

All of Usagi's so called "murders" are rather ambiguous, she is safeguarded through the vagueness of whether her enemies are indeed human or even properly alive, or in other cases because she must restore balance due to those who attempt to drastically alter it. The anime does not feature Usagi killing any proper character. Youma are more spirits. Droids are not living. Daimons are aliens. Lemures are zombies. Phages were not killed. The main characters are not directly killed by Usagi. They are usually killed directly by something else. This is how Usagi is safeguarded from being labelled a murderer, it seems to have been done very carefully. In the manga, she's basically blowing up evil things, typically when it comes to Japan, we should not regard characters who are not given human qualities any real consideration of their death, most characters fall into this line in the manga. In the musicals, pretty much every character is forgiven by Usagi. PGSM is the realistic approach to the series.

I think you're misunderstanding me...

In the series, the ideology and philosophy revolves around what Usagi thinks. She is not an anti-protagonist or anything, we see her triumph and overcome all again and again. She is never seen in a negative light except by villains who end up being proven wrong anyway. The series justifies absolutely everything Usagi does. If Usagi does not agree, then its safe to categorize everything else as "unjustified". Its as simple as that. These same problems may not apply to real life, but we are discussing fiction here. Haruka and Michiru have justified themselves, but in the overall sense of the story, they are not simply because Usagi does not believe in it. Usagi's life philosophy is the one we must attend to. Not Haruka and Michiru's.

The infinity arc, S anime and Mugen musicals set up two ideas:

Sacrificing one technically innocent person without consent to save many lives instead
Sacrificing no-one, there is always an alternative

These ideas cannot work together. They are completely at ends, in the series, it is the second one that overcomes. Not the first.

Haruka and Michiru's actions are understandable. But within this specific story, across all versions, they remain unjustified. Applying the same situation to any other story or into real life doesn't matter. Usagi thinks they're wrong, they're wrong just as how she thought all her enemies were wrong. Its just this time, the enemy weren't directly opposing her.

If you do not agree, then we can basically justify anything in the series, for example:

Lilith of Darkness in Transylvania no Mori: refused to be submissive to a man, was tortured endlessly by being forced to give to 100 babies everyday and having them all killed. Attempted suicide, saved by Satan, spent thousands of years alone. According to her the Silver Crystal is what parts the humans from the plants and spirits. She wishes to destroy it in order to create a world where everyone is equal.

Is she justified?

No, Lilith's intentions may have been justified in her own mind, but Usagi couldn't agree with someone trying to overthrow the world of God. Usagi purifies Lilith and then later talks about how Lilith was lonely and misunderstood. Usagi instead brings equality in a different way, by slowly removing the barriers, marking people as ambassadors across the different worlds. Vampir for the spirits, Mandrake for the plants. She talks about how if everyone just looks out for each other, then loneliness, the true problem in the world, would vanish.

Usagi finds an alternative way where nobody is "unjustly" in her opinion sacrificed. We must agree with her, since the series revolves around her and does not mark her as being wrong. In my personal opinion, I feel very sorry for Lilith and think she's in the right. But my personal opinion isn't really what I'm on about. I'm talking about the opinion of the series where Lilith, like Haruka and Michiru were in the wrong with their unjustified tactics.

In my personal opinion, I think Haruka and Michiru are justified. But I do not like letting my personal opinion interfere with my professional opinion, the facts and ideas presented in the story.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   10th March 2013, 6:10 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

I think the Outer Soldiers had much to learn from the Inner girls and the inners had much to learn from the outers, we see that pretty clearly in Dream and the Nehellenia arc.

I don't think that is true anime-wise. In manga yes, we clearly see it on the both sides - Inners miss Outers much and their Super powerups are about wanting to emulate them. But in anime they happily go the whole SuperS season without them. And in Nehellenia arc of Stars when Outers are back, they all do work together - but it's shown that Inners are above Outers and the latter are the ones, who should learn.

Not to mention Ha&Mi's fail at the end of Stars.

So while in both anime and manga there is Outers-Inners divide, it's much stronger in anime (there are still two groups even in the end of series). Also their ideological differences seem to mostly dissapear after Infinity in manga, but are still essential in Stars anime, where dispute about cooperation with Starlights and using underhanded method is big part. (While in manga there is still distrust of the Starlighs, all girls show it).

I go miostly with anime canon.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   10th March 2013, 7:46 am

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
Actually they outers wanted to kill her so that
Sailor Saturn wouldn't be awakened, it wasn't just about Mistress 9 and
it wasn't revealed until later that she was the host for Mistress 9.
Her powers can bring about an Apocalyptic Silence.

The point I was trying to get across is that Hotaru is the girl caught up in
the middle of it all. If you want to keep Saturn from being awakened
you ultimately have to end the life of an innocent person and that's not
right.

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
As for if she has died the
death/rebirth thing wouldn't have ended. That's like saying if Mars dies
fire won't exist. They are gifted with powers that control elements but
they are not the element itself so even if they die it doesn't mean
there will be no more lighting or water or fire or death.

Also,
when it comes to senshi, if they die they are merely reborn and recycled
through the galaxy cordon. Sailor Saturn dies when she uses her
apocalyptic power. That specific power is a double edged blade. She uses
it she dies, much like if Pluto Stops Time she dies but they are
senshi, they won't be dead forever.

She is the Soldier of Silence and Death, I never really understood the whole reborn thing.

I stand corrected. I figured as much I just didn't fully understand what the rules were for pre-awakened forms or if there were any.

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
As
for justifiable, sadly, murder is not a good thing but yes, it is
justice depending on the crime. If someone is trying to kill you, are
you going to let them simply because you don't want to? Sometimes to
stop and evil person, it takes death as an only option because some
people will not stop. This however is a widely debated topic and there
is never a clear answer to such a question because it all depends on the
persons belief.

Hotaru isn't evil, nor is Saturn. I
don't think the comparison works in this situation.

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
As for
Haruka and Michiru being justified, they were. At least in the manga
anyway. In the manga Saturn had awakened after Metallia and Beryl
destroyed the Silver Millennium, and Saturn killed off the remains
because her power is only activated when the power of Saturn deems all
hope is lost, and so everything must die in order to subdue the evil
infecting the world.

I can't comment on the manga version since I haven't read it. I'm mainly basing my arguments on the anime.

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
Pluto
also wanted to stop her awakening and was on Haruka and Michiru's team
so if anything, you just be including her in this. They felt the only
way to ensure Saturn would not awaken and destroy the world they loved
so much was to silence her before she could silence the world. They
feared her power, and they feared an end to all they held dear. To me,
there actions are justified.

Fear is not a justification. One cannot think or act rationally when they are motivated by fear.

Also, I'm not trying to include or exclude Pluto in anything I just kept my posts to "Haruka and Michiru" since that's what in the title of the thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   10th March 2013, 8:03 pm

Quote :
I don't think that is true anime-wise.

In the Nehelenia arc. Uranus learns from Mercury. Venus learns from Pluto for example... There are too few instances of interaction, but that's what we can take. They do learn lessons from each other in S in untransformed states but its more life lessons there.

I think Setsuna is just too ambiguous to include. We really don't know what she's really thinking. She seems to be on Haruka and Michiru's side but she also seems to be supportive of the others too, giving them information, answering some of their questions.

The Musicals are different once again. Setsuna is always on everyone's side. She becomes the mother-hen in a sense. Taking over from Usagi in the animemanga and Makoto in PGSM.

I just don't think we should include her in this debate.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   16th March 2013, 11:26 am

I feel like some parts are justifiable. I take some issue with HaruMichi attempting to kill Hotaru, but thats not my main issue with them.

In S, Pluto admitted that while she regretted what they had to do, there was no time to create a new plan. Uranus and Saturn knew, all along, that they were going to kill an innocent person and never once went to the inners to explain the problem or ask for help. they are so full of themselves that they just thought the inners would "Get in the way" despite the fact that they had already saved the world multiple times.

if they had worked together in the first place, then maybe they would have found another way to handle Saturn.


In Stars however, I do not think what they did was justifiable at all. I understood that they were just trying whatever they thought would work, but they were idiots to even try this plan. First of all, they killed Pluto and Saturn, the 2 on their team with the strongest (and most useful) powers. They were also their friends and helped raise baby Hotaru and they killed them to try a crazy plan. Did they seriously think that Galaxia would give them the ability to kill her?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   16th March 2013, 1:15 pm

Yes, Saturn Skyy, for their supposed "pragmatism" Ha&Mi seem very naive sometimes. Galaxia wouldn't be so dumb.

And it's really difficult to imagine all Outers continuing happy family life after that - Setsuna and Hotaru may understand, may forgive, but it IMO will not dissappear so easily. They stole Hotaru from her father to kill her later Shocked

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :
I don't think that is true anime-wise.

In the Nehelenia arc. Uranus learns from Mercury. Venus learns from Pluto for example... There are too few instances of interaction, but that's what we can take. They do learn lessons from each other in S in untransformed states but its more life lessons there.


Uranus learns from Mercury, Neptun from Mars, Pluto from Venus (though as you say, Pluto is outside the debate).

As for life lessons as civilians - I can recall Mako's heart episode, when she ponders her feminity and sees Haruka as model - but it has also Haruka beating Mako terribly - she really looks like a sick sadist there.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   16th March 2013, 3:44 pm

Quote :
And it's really difficult to imagine all Outers continuing happy family life after that - Setsuna and Hotaru may understand, may forgive, but it IMO will not dissappear so easily.

(There's also the NeptuneMercury ep in S, while Neptune seems to learn more from Ami, Ami seems to learn more from Mamoru and through her own thinking, honestly Michiru comes off as a bit of a child in that episode...)

But there's also a possibility that Pluto and Saturn were in on the whole thing or else Pluto and Saturn were killed because they are a wee bit too kind and it would be more difficult for them to do the deed.

Or the most probable reason, convenient story-telling to remove the over-powered Pluto and Saturn from interfering with Usagi's role in the final few episodes.

Though I agree, Haruka and Michiru should have learnt their lesson by Stars that underhanded tactics do not work in that series. Battles must be fought their mental strength, wit and a will to do save the innocent.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   16th March 2013, 5:48 pm

Why can't people just let Haruka and Michiru (and all the characters for that matter) have their flaws? You guys do realize that the flaws are what makes them better characters and therefore a better story, right? Wink They're not perfect. I can't think of a single senshi that's perfect.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   16th March 2013, 6:00 pm

I don't think it's the fact that they're flawed, its that some people feel their flaws are out of character or taken too far that's all. In this particular debate its not about if they were flawed or not, its about if their flaw was justified or not.

No one's really saying that they're perfect or not.

Who in particular are you directing that statement at anyway? Or is just a general message...

I like Michiru well enough but in the swimming episode, she kind of annoyed me that's all but I didn't mind when Makoto gets irritated with losing in the later S episode.

All characters have their flaws yes, but sometimes people will feel a certain flaw is an obvious drawback, we don't have to like an entire character do we? We can like them overall, but we should be allowed to feel that they have drawbacks that we won't always like.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   16th March 2013, 8:17 pm

It was just me making a general statement. It wasn't at anyone. Razz and I agree, you don't have to like *all* of a character.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   16th March 2013, 8:25 pm

I'm not saying liking all the characters, I mean you may like a character but that doesn't mean you'll like everything about them

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   17th March 2013, 2:01 am

Why is it always such a problem, when somebody critises Ha&Mi, while Mamoru-hate can be rampart and no-one is bothered? What makes them sacred cows?

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

(There's also the NeptuneMercury ep in S, while Neptune seems to learn more from Ami, Ami seems to learn more from Mamoru and through her own thinking, honestly Michiru comes off as a bit of a child in that episode...)

Really like a child- and spoiled too. I'm glad that Ami and Michiru finished race at the same time.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
But there's also a possibility that Pluto and Saturn were in on the whole thing

I never believed it - I can actually see when Haruka got that idea and when Michiru understood it. The four earlier discussed in general that they must ensure that at least one of them must survive and they as Outers use different tactics.


@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Or the most probable reason, convenient story-telling to remove the over-powered Pluto and Saturn from interfering with Usagi's role in the final few episodes.

Yes, other senhi had to be eliminated - but this could be done in different way (like in manga i.e.). Anime did this way, because they wanted to show their treason and killing comrades.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Though I agree, Haruka and Michiru should have learnt their lesson by Stars that underhanded tactics do not work in that series. Battles must be fought their mental strength, wit and a will to do save the innocent.

AND COOPERATION! AND FAITH IN GOODNESS!

Though I believe that Galaxia's lesson finally sank in Ha&Mi and they learnt something - it can be observed how their attitude to Starlights changes quickly.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   17th March 2013, 10:01 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
It was just me making a general statement. It wasn't at anyone. Razz and I agree, you don't have to like *all* of a character.

I understand that they have flaws, like real people, and that it makes the story more interesting. I kinda have a love/hate relationship with HaruMichi. They are fascinating characters and have a ton of strengths, but their weaknesses rub me the wrong way a lot. And I feel like they never learned their lesson in S, and made things so much worse in Stars...and they hurt my Hotaru

Despite all this, I still like them a lot and feel like they added much to the story line.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   17th March 2013, 10:15 am

As far as flaws are concerned - there are some examples of flaw which help make characters more rounded and realistic - like Usagi's clumsiness and tendency to cry or Mamoru's reserve. And I totally embrace them. Ha&Mi have however such arrogance and superiority about them that it's for me impossible not to get irritated with them.

And ITA with Saturn Skyy - the worst about Ha&Mi is their inability to learn.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   17th March 2013, 11:00 am

The stance I've taken in this debate has nothing to do with my personal feelings towards any particular character so their flaws or lack thereof is the farthest thing from my mind. I could despise Sailor Moon with every fiber of my being and I would still side with her where Hotaru is concerned because objectively that's who I see as being right, though you can make an argument Sailor Moon is as much blinded by her love and friendship for Hotaru as the Outers were for their fear and I wouldn't dispute that.

This is how I debate: disregard any personal feelings I may have, look at both sides objectively and gather up the facts then come to my conclusion and base an argument from those facts and see how they hold up to a counter-argument, and by the end of the debate I reevaluate my arguments or even my entire stance when needed. I know there are times where I come across as opinionated but I'm not so opinionated that a well-constructed argument couldn't persuade me. I debate people to learn and grow. If I thought I was right all the time then I wouldn't debate.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   17th March 2013, 12:30 pm

ToriJ - While I agree with what you are saying, there are two very opposing schools of thought on this subject.

on one hand, you are saying (Correct me if I am wrong) that is is never okay to sacrifice an innocent life, no matter the circumstances.

HaruMichi and the other hand, are in the school of thought that if killing one person can prevent the suffering of everyone else, then it is okay.

I honestly can't say that one ideology is better than the other. Personally, I have to look at the gray areas, such as their actions towards the goal, their feelings, how they treated everyone and various other things.

While I agree that what they did was unjustified, I cant say that their attempt to kill Hotaru was objectively wrong

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   17th March 2013, 1:39 pm

Quote :
As on different thread we has have veered off topic, I thought that new topic could be useful.

What can be said about Haruka and Michiru's actions - towards Usagi and Inner Senshi, Starlights, Hotaru, Galaxia?

I always believed that they were presented as warriors with more cynical outlook on fight and using more shady methods. However, the show sided with Usagi's pure and innocent idealism, proving H&Mi wrong.

I see the origin of the topic was actually about their actions in the StarS arc, I jumped into the debate when it had veered off topic. I'm long winded but I'm a lazy reader lately :/

So since this ISN'T about Hotaru and the reason why Setsuna wasn't mentioned(I did find it odd Setsuna wasn't apart of the S debate but I've come to realize it isn't about that^^' and that's why...)

The way you phrased your topic I see you're debating the anime version of the StarS saga, since those events didn't occur in the manga.(Which is kinda disappointing, while I lean more towards favoritism on the manga storyline, the death scene of Haruka and Michiru was sad and sweet with them reaching out to each other.)

So since it's about how they pretended to join Galaxia, killing Pluto and Saturn and attempting to kill the Starlights and Usagi, I'm gonna have to say no. They're actions were completely unjustifiable.

There was no reason for their actions. No hidden message, no meaning. This was just baffling for me because what did it accomplish? It wasn't even a well thought out plan. They were attempting to go undercover, okay good plan, kill Galaxia with her own power? No that's a bad plan. Obviously since she gave them those bracelets she must not have given them as much power as she holds herself so it was stupid.

When it comes to the StarS anime saga, their actions are not justified, and the writers were off their mark a little more that day :/

----

Just to add to the side debate that's taken place, from my previous comments I do believe in the S saga all the senshi were justified in their own right.

When it comes to justice, it is not always kind. That boils down to the individuals belief. In a Firefighters, Officers and SOLDIERS jobs, if given the chance to save one person, or save many then they are required to make a judgement. The situations aren't always easy decisions. that's just LIFE because life is a balance of Good and Bad pushing against each other. Life is not black and white but littered with gray areas that could be this or could be that.

Those gray areas are a mystery, and can be taken as this or that. That's life. It's random chaotic and taken differently by every person on this planet, we all have varying opinions about anything and everything whether fact proves otherwise or not. That's people.

Justice isn't always kind, isn't fair, isn't easy. Watch a few Law and Order:SVU episodes, you'll see that quickly. It's worse in the real world. Justice is hardly ever, if at all, fair in the real world.


As for the Sailor Moon ideology being so idealistic, I don't see that. I don't see that AT ALL. If it were so idealistic, then we wouldn't be debating whether or not Haruka and Michiru's actions were justifiable. The ideal would be that they fought along side the inners from the get go, and that Hotaru's father wasn't evil and her body didn't born in a fire and be replaced with cruborg parts and she wouldn't have been possessed by Mistress 9 and she wouldn't have such a horrifyingly destructive not to mention depressing power.

If it were ideal, Haruka and Michiru would NEVER have betrayed their friends, and killed them.

Just because they always won, just because the series talks about hope and romance and friendship doesn't mean the series was unrealistically idealistic.

They struggled for those wins, they had to become stronger. They made mistakes, they had to learn. They mistrusted each other at first, all of them at some points were uneasy with someone that ended up being a friend in the end. They fought with each other many times, they became friends/lovers/enemies becoming allies. They had to fight, they all didn't want too.

It's not anymore idealistic then other series. It's a little cliche with the always winning, no main characters dying but it's not overly idealistic unless you compare it to Death Note where main characters die and the gore and violence is a little more graphic.

That being said that manga was slightly more graphic with images of decaying bodies with fresh melting off bones and bodies being torn in half, exploded, stabbed and what not. For Naoko's beautiful art, she isn't the most skillful artisit out there. Most pages in the manga didn't even have backgrounds among other things(Still absolutely adore her style though^^) but when it was turned into an anime designs and certain aspects changed :/

The anime, most baddies weren't killed.

In the manga, most baddies were killed. We even saw their corpses or their bodies being ripped apart, or the flesh melting from their bodies from their powers.

Whether human or not, the human looking baddies were still people. They were killed and I'm sure, thinking the way any of the senshi would if I were them, still be haunted by the death of another living being despite it being their job. Besides, for the girls anyway, they aren't exactly human despite having been reborn as human. Apart of them will always be alien, the part that makes them senshi.

That's my 2 cents though, everyone takes and views and sees things differently.

Debates and theories are about sharing these opinions and letting people understand them so they can see a new side to something they previously thought different about. We can share our opinions but we can believe whatever we want.


<3 It's all entertaining the idea without excepting it.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   17th March 2013, 1:46 pm

Saturn Skyy wrote:
ToriJ - While I agree with what you are saying, there are two very opposing schools of thought on this subject.

on one hand, you are saying (Correct me if I am wrong) that is is never okay to sacrifice an innocent life, no matter the circumstances.

HaruMichi and the other hand, are in the school of thought that if killing one person can prevent the suffering of everyone else, then it is okay.

I honestly can't say that one ideology is better than the other. Personally, I have to look at the gray areas, such as their actions towards the goal, their feelings, how they treated everyone and various other things.

While I agree that what they did was unjustified, I cant say that their attempt to kill Hotaru was objectively wrong

When there are no other alternatives, when they've all been tried and exhausted. Maybe they didn't have the time when Pluto entered the picture but you said it yourself earlier, what about before? They had all that time long before Pluto came in. Did they ever once consider any other alternatives or did they just decide that three people would have to die to complete their mission? Perhaps if they contacted the other Senshi at the beginning they could have found some of these alternatives. Or maybe by the time a certain little pink-haired girl appeared they would have gotten it into their heads to contact Pluto, find she was the owner of one of these talisman and learn that nobody had to die to obtain them.

My issue is that there was never a necessity for any sacrifices to be made and no alternatives were ever considered. I get that's not how the story is going to be written but that's beside the point.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   1st April 2013, 9:59 am

I completely applaud these two. Even if they are senshi. They've caused this must distress among themselves that I cannot look over such an accomplishment. Bravo.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?   10th November 2013, 5:19 am

Just for add a little thing:

The outers are all about sacrifice to accomplish a mission. Not saying that I agree or disagree, nor they are justified or not. 
But didn't anyone noticed, that anime Stars that the Silence Glaive and Garnet Rod were destroyed during a Galaxia attack? I didn't noticed it at 1st, but someone showed me a screen cap and we clearly see both weapons destroyed. I was shocked by the scene and I still didn't re-watched Stars yet, but if their weapons were broken, unlike Uranus and Neptune, Pluto and Saturn were powerless, they couldn't attack or defense themselves, their friends or even their beloved princess.
So, for what it was explained to me, was that to accomplish their goal, Pluto and Saturn had to die convincible deaths. Outers are all about sacrifice, so if they couldn't do anything, die in a dramatic fashion to convince Galaxia of Uranus and Neptune's loyalty was something they would do, so the other 2 could keep fighting. By that point of battle, the city was already destroyed, and earlier on, Saturn was willing to use her ultimate power to destroy Galaxia, when Galaxia told her that she was responsible for re-awaken Saturn.
By that point all hope was lost, before going to their own deaths, Saturn told the Starlights to keep the hope, to believe in Usagi. Pluto agreed. Both of them had their weapons destroyed (I don't remember right now if the Space Sword was also destroyed, but even then Uranus has World Shaking, that doesn't need it) and were about to being killed for Galaxia, when Uranus and Neptune come with their last plan. So, they just tried to keep going with their mission, because their friend and daughter were already dead, I don't see much they could do.
Their plan might have worked if Galaxia wasn't a completelly psycho and still have a star seed. And they know they were doomed, because if their plan was sucessful they would also die with Galaxia.
While holding hands as their disappearing into nothing (it made me cry even more!!!), Uranus regrets what they have to do aganist Pluto and Saturn, all that for nothing. She then asks the Starlights to take care of Usagi and dies (out of topic: the Starlights were more there as moral support, and to try shield Usagi sometime, like some sort of senshi cheerleaders, there were much of use at the last battle).
And as see at the end ep. 200, the 4 of them were happily together, so or either Saturn and Pluto understood the plan right away (possible since the 4 of them are so connected) or they forgave the other 2. Either way, there any harsh feelings, between the 4. Nor the inner seems to have a problem with it either (the must have been told what happened after they died), or Usagi (ok, forgiviness is in her nature) nor Mamoru.
They were watching from the car, and Hotaru asks what they wished, and if I remember well after all those years, it's something like "there isn't nothing to ask when you are completelly happy". Michiru agrees. Pluto smiles. All happy. Smile 
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Debate: Are Haruka and Michiru's actions justifiable?

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