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 Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?

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Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?
Yes
74%
 74% [ 28 ]
No
16%
 16% [ 6 ]
I'm not sure
10%
 10% [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 38
 

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PostSubject: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   19th September 2012, 2:30 pm

Because I've been seeing this argument all over Tumblr and even mentioned around the various threads here, I think it'd be appropriate to make it into its own separate debate! Smile
So discuss everyone! Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi for herself? Or is he just with her because of destiny and the past? Do you think he'd choose to be with her regardless? Do you think subconciouslly he was somewhat disappointed when he found out who his Princess was? Do you think Mamoru is looking for a "a way out" as some people have so eloquently put it.
Again this is anime only as the manga and PGSM give sufficient enough evidence that Mamoru DOES love Usagi for herself and actually wants to be with her. Anime though, is a whole nother ball-game which is why its the perfect thing to debate!Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   19th September 2012, 3:52 pm

o_o I fight that kind of stuff constantly on tumblr, lmao.

IMO Yes, Mamoru loves Usagi. He loves her for who she is, in some ways she is everything he's not and he loves her for that - they complete each other; he keeps her grounded while she lifts him up into craziness. And he adores it. It had nothing to do with destiny or their past, *coughcoughleaving this here*cough*and this*cough* ahem. And he'd choose being with her no matter what is thrown in his way. O.o if he didn't, he would've let the R breakup last forever. Instead he was staring dreamily into rivers thinking of her face and being all ho-hum super-sad missing-usagi or forgetting they were broken up in the first place. Boy is addicted to his Usako.

I do NOT think he was disappointed to find out the crazy-ass mist woman who'd been stalking his dreams for a while ((remember, he didn't actually remember having those dreams until he realized he was in fact Tuxedo Mask, which was like in the 20's episodes in the anime and the Moon Princess episode was 34; and then the mysterious dream woman was no where near anything like "HEY DREAMBOAT !REMMEBER ME? WELL IF YOU FIND ME ALL OF YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE~~" ; it was like "HEY. FIND THAT CRYSTAL AND I'LL TRADE YOU YOUR FORGOTTEN MEMORIES OF THE TIME BEFORE YOUR PARENTS DIED." O.o how is that supposed to affect what he thought was coming? I mean, really, you'd think it'd have an adverse "Um.. if that was the Moon Princess I think I'm OUT." effect)) was Usagi. I think it'd give him some comfort knowing that their ties to one another were to close that their subconscious remembered the other person intimately.

O.o and nooooooo he's not looking for a way out. If he were, R would've ended rather differently; remember, they got back together BEFORE they knew what their future held, when they still thought that this would end VERY BADLY for them (esp. Usagi) and were doing it as a big F YOU to fate.

If he wanted an out, he could've had it then and there.


BUT YES LET'S DEBATE.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   19th September 2012, 4:07 pm

Sailor Uranus wrote:
o_o I fight that kind of stuff constantly on tumblr, lmao.

IMO Yes, Mamoru loves Usagi. He loves her for who she is, in some ways she is everything he's not and he loves her for that - they complete each other; he keeps her grounded while she lifts him up into craziness. And he adores it. It had nothing to do with destiny or their past, *coughcoughleaving this here*cough*and this*cough* ahem. And he'd choose being with her no matter what is thrown in his way. O.o if he didn't, he would've let the R breakup last forever. Instead he was staring dreamily into rivers thinking of her face and being all ho-hum super-sad missing-usagi or forgetting they were broken up in the first place. Boy is addicted to his Usako.

I do NOT think he was disappointed to find out the crazy-ass mist woman who'd been stalking his dreams for a while ((remember, he didn't actually remember having those dreams until he realized he was in fact Tuxedo Mask, which was like in the 20's episodes in the anime and the Moon Princess episode was 34; and then the mysterious dream woman was no where near anything like "HEY DREAMBOAT !REMMEBER ME? WELL IF YOU FIND ME ALL OF YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE~~" ; it was like "HEY. FIND THAT CRYSTAL AND I'LL TRADE YOU YOUR FORGOTTEN MEMORIES OF THE TIME BEFORE YOUR PARENTS DIED." O.o how is that supposed to affect what he thought was coming? I mean, really, you'd think it'd have an adverse "Um.. if that was the Moon Princess I think I'm OUT." effect)) was Usagi. I think it'd give him some comfort knowing that their ties to one another were to close that their subconscious remembered the other person intimately.

O.o and nooooooo he's not looking for a way out. If he were, R would've ended rather differently; remember, they got back together BEFORE they knew what their future held, when they still thought that this would end VERY BADLY for them (esp. Usagi) and were doing it as a big F YOU to fate.

If he wanted an out, he could've had it then and there.


BUT YES LET'S DEBATE.
I think you make very good points, the break-up arc definitely shows that he does truly want to be with Usagi. But just to play devil's advocate in order to debate this, I have to ask: Yes, Mamoru still stayed with Usagi despite finding out that "She" was the Princess, but one also must remember that really after learning who the Princess of his dreams was, and how that's connected to his past. Don't you think Mamoru would *want* to hang on to her just so he could have some semblance, connection to his past? This is a guy with a blank slate, completely disconnected from the world around him. Even if he didn't intially want to be the Princesse's romantic partner, once he found out he WAS and heard this whole story about Serenity and Endymion, what if the only reason he's hanging onto it is because its all he has as far as memories go? Even, if yes, by doing so he has to put up with that Odango-Atama who's constantly annoying him!
Remember, in S and SuperS, once we see them officially together and going out on dates and stuff, we mostly see Mamoru being either disinterested, embarrssed, fatherly to Usagi or all of the above!
Also, look at the Doom Tree Arc for evidence. Until Mamoru got his memories back he never felt anything but friendship towards Usagi at best ((And thinking she's a loony stalker at worst)) Their relationship never really progressed until he got his memories back. Honestly, I'd really love to see a fanfiction set in anime verse where Mamoru loses his memories again, but this time there's no magical "restore-all spell," so Usagi has to get him to fall in love with her by just being herself and the relationship develops over a series of months with Usagi and Mamoru just hanging out and getting to know each other, with the author ultimately deciding if after to getting to know one another without all the Destiny/Fate pretenses, would Mamoru genuninely want to be with Usagi? WHY HASN'T FANDOM EXPLORED THIS IDEA?! IT WOULD MAKE A PHENOMANAL FIC!
Also, Uranus I adore those posts you made on Tumblr by the way! Very Happy Do you think you could do them for the rest of Classic and R?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   19th September 2012, 4:08 pm

Okay.

Yes. He loves her. But it's very subtle. Obviously. Some of it I felt is a little forced, like the whole thing with Usagi. She was going around, kind of trying to avoid Mamoru because he was a mean jerk to her. But she adores Tuxedo Mask, obviously because he's sexy/dreamy/mysterious, etc. Then she finds out that mean jerk is Tuxedo Mask. No one in their right mind sets aside thinking "oh the mean jerk is actually dream and I'm gonna like him now.". That doesn't happen. Most people would be like (as I mentioned in the other thread) "You, the mean jerk, are this sexy mystery man? Are you serious? What the hell? Are you kidding me?" and then usually their feelings or infatuation fades. You don't just dismiss how they've treated you, regardless of their persona.

Just like you don't dismiss all that just because of the past.

And you don't act constantly embarrassed by your girlfriend. Even in public. You embrace them and who they are. Even if you're reserved. I'm reserved and I have the silliest, weirdest friends. But they don't bother me or embarrass me one bit. I embrace them for who they are, even in public (no that's not to say they're not publicly acceptable but there are instances where they are weird in public and most loser-normal-boring-shallow people would be like "you're embarrassing me sthap it or we can't be fronds").

But, I feel like there are subtle clues that he obviously does love her. I have a best friend who isn't outwardly affectionate or playful or anything like that. So she's kinda like Mamoru. She does show her love and acts like we're best friends, but in subtle ways. Mamoru is like that with Usagi, I feel like. One way to note this was in an episode I believe in...either S or SuperS, Usagi made (read: burned) him cookies. She brought them over to his house. He wasn't home. She looked around and saw how intelligent, sophisticated, what have you, he is, and fell apart. She didn't think she was good enough for him (what an absurd thought). Mamoru found Usagi a mess, she explained why, and he just plopped a cookie in his mouth and told her she was wrong. That was sweet and subtle. A point for Mamoru.

Do I think they're the best match? Debatable. I don't know. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. They're different. Too different. And I stand by the whole "opposites attract is bs" thing.

But there is some of my two cents. More will probably come XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   19th September 2012, 4:48 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Okay.

Yes. He loves her. But it's very subtle. Obviously. Some of it I felt is a little forced, like the whole thing with Usagi. She was going around, kind of trying to avoid Mamoru because he was a mean jerk to her. But she adores Tuxedo Mask, obviously because he's sexy/dreamy/mysterious, etc. Then she finds out that mean jerk is Tuxedo Mask. No one in their right mind sets aside thinking "oh the mean jerk is actually dream and I'm gonna like him now.". That doesn't happen. Most people would be like (as I mentioned in the other thread) "You, the mean jerk, are this sexy mystery man? Are you serious? What the hell? Are you kidding me?" and then usually their feelings or infatuation fades. You don't just dismiss how they've treated you, regardless of their persona.

Just like you don't dismiss all that just because of the past.

And you don't act constantly embarrassed by your girlfriend. Even in public. You embrace them and who they are. Even if you're reserved. I'm reserved and I have the silliest, weirdest friends. But they don't bother me or embarrass me one bit. I embrace them for who they are, even in public (no that's not to say they're not publicly acceptable but there are instances where they are weird in public and most loser-normal-boring-shallow people would be like "you're embarrassing me sthap it or we can't be fronds").

But, I feel like there are subtle clues that he obviously does love her. I have a best friend who isn't outwardly affectionate or playful or anything like that. So she's kinda like Mamoru. She does show her love and acts like we're best friends, but in subtle ways. Mamoru is like that with Usagi, I feel like. One way to note this was in an episode I believe in...either S or SuperS, Usagi made (read: burned) him cookies. She brought them over to his house. He wasn't home. She looked around and saw how intelligent, sophisticated, what have you, he is, and fell apart. She didn't think she was good enough for him (what an absurd thought). Mamoru found Usagi a mess, she explained why, and he just plopped a cookie in his mouth and told her she was wrong. That was sweet and subtle. A point for Mamoru.

Do I think they're the best match? Debatable. I don't know. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. They're different. Too different. And I stand by the whole "opposites attract is bs" thing.

But there is some of my two cents. More will probably come XD
Just to play devil's advocate again, I don't think there should be any doubt that Usagi doesn't love Mamoru. Honestly I see all her so called "angry attacks" on him in the first season as being in denial with a crush. I mean, look how jealous she gets when he starts dating Rei! I think by the time in the elevator when she started learning all about him and his past, she had already grown even more attracted to him and now knew for sure that he was a good guy. I think also learning about his past made her feel sorry for him and made her want to be there for him always so that he never has to feel alone again!

Think back to the season finale of Classic, now I don't know whether this was just in Mamoru's mind, but I think it was in Usagi's. Mamoru as a little boy, crying over having lost his parents and is now all alone in the world. Usagi, comes up to him and reassures him that he's alright, that she's with him and he'll never be alone again!

I actually think that scene was incredibly touching and sweet for the couple and it definitely removed any doubts about Usagi's side of the relationship. What really makes you wonder though is how does Mamoru feel about the relationship? Since again, his anime self is extremely subtle and we never know what he's thinking half the time XD

But yeah, I'd say the love is pretty solid on Usagi's end. ((Well at least until she meets Seiya. Wink))

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   19th September 2012, 4:55 pm

Past as in Silver Millennium past. lol and of course I don't doubt Usagi loves Mamoru. But I think in the beginning, that was....unrealistic. At least, in my opinion.

Mamoru, I'll still say yes. Just subtle. And again in my opinion, "messes up" in instances where he should just embrace Usagi, not be embarrassed by her. Or as mentioned about the S movie (in another thread); actually have his full attention on her when she was talking about Luna, not be wrapped up in a book. It makes me so mad when one of my super close friends is constantly on her phone, texting or looking up something or reading something, when I'm trying to talk to her. It's rude and honestly makes me sad. It's like "am I that boring you can't focus on me?". Being "unable to do nothing/sit still" is not an excuse.

No one likes it. That's why you don't (or shouldn't) do that to people you are close to or people above you (like parents, boss, or teacher).

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   19th September 2012, 5:06 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Past as in Silver Millennium past. lol and of course I don't doubt Usagi loves Mamoru. But I think in the beginning, that was....unrealistic. At least, in my opinion.

Mamoru, I'll still say yes. Just subtle. And again in my opinion, "messes up" in instances where he should just embrace Usagi, not be embarrassed by her. Or as mentioned about the S movie (in another thread); actually have his full attention on her when she was talking about Luna, not be wrapped up in a book. It makes me so mad when one of my super close friends is constantly on her phone, texting or looking up something or reading something, when I'm trying to talk to her. It's rude and honestly makes me sad. It's like "am I that boring you can't focus on me?". Being "unable to do nothing/sit still" is not an excuse.

No one likes it. That's why you don't (or shouldn't) do that to people you are close to or people above you (like parents, boss, or teacher).
Oh no one's doubting that it was realistic, I'll be the first to admit that it was extremely unrealistic. But again, the anime handled a lot of things pretty badly compared to the manga so yeah. XD

I so agree with you on the "ignoring part" its seriously rude and that scene in the S movie was one of the scenes that really soured me on the UsaMamo relationship ((particularly in the anime)) Now really I have to wonder. Yes, I have no doubts that Mamoru loves Usagi but does he really love her in a romantic way? Or does he love her like a father or older brother would? Considering that most of the time he treats her exactly like Chibi-Usa, or outright ignores her, one has to wonder... Also, where do you think Usagi's constant insecurities and jealousies come from? When Mamoru does the stuff like he did in the S movie Usagi starts thinking that she's not good enough for him, not on his level, etc etc. The fact that the anime created an even bigger age difference between the two really emphasizes this.

Also scenes like that show that when all is said and done, while Mamoru DOES harbor affection for Usagi, he doesn't treat her seriously, or worse; doesn't respect her.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 12:40 pm

@EurAsianGirl wrote:


Think back to the season finale of Classic, now I don't know whether this was just in Mamoru's mind, but I think it was in Usagi's. Mamoru as a little boy, crying over having lost his parents and is now all alone in the world. Usagi, comes up to him and reassures him that he's alright, that she's with him and he'll never be alone again!

Actually, IMO it was Mamoru's mind - because after that he was purifed.

(to be continued)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 12:46 pm

I voted yes, because I do believe that Mamoru loves Usagi, in all canons. It's just that the anime has a strange way of having him show it sometimes. (but then other times, they can have some really cute and sweet scenes. Like the glass shoes episode, I think Mamoru was really cute running out and trying to find these shoes that Usagi only mentioned, after only just having found out about her birthday. He really went out on a limb trying to make it up to her (even when it wasn't his fault.))

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 4:04 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I voted yes, because I do believe that Mamoru loves Usagi, in all canons. It's just that the anime has a strange way of having him show it sometimes. (but then other times, they can have some really cute and sweet scenes. Like the glass shoes episode, I think Mamoru was really cute running out and trying to find these shoes that Usagi only mentioned, after only just having found out about her birthday. He really went out on a limb trying to make it up to her (even when it wasn't his fault.))

To be honest, I didn't find that scene cute or romantic at all. It further proved in my mind that Mamoru doesn't love Usagi in a romantic way, and just like a kid sister or something. He looked so embarrased when she started clinging on to him at the beginning of the episode begging for the shoes she actually had to drag him like I used to do with my dad when I wanted something!

The fact that he bought them just looked like he was giving in to a spoiled kid's demands^^;

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 4:15 pm

Hmm, I had forgotten about that part of him looking so uncomfortable. I should rewatch that episode again xD

I can definitely see what you mean xD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 7:17 pm

i think that he has always loved her. i even stated that in two of my fanfics.
so, for him, the name-calling was a way of flirting. this IS a boy with no family or real contact with people/friends. so, it was a way of making her look at him.

and then, he did it, he got her to fall in love with him. and i see him being alone with her and being nice. yes, the s movie showed that book scene and it didn't look pretty. but in the end, he's there, he was always crazy about this girl.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 11:25 pm

MiMakoChan wrote:
i think that he has always loved her. i even stated that in two of my fanfics.
so, for him, the name-calling was a way of flirting. this IS a boy with no family or real contact with people/friends. so, it was a way of making her look at him.

and then, he did it, he got her to fall in love with him. and i see him being alone with her and being nice. yes, the s movie showed that book scene and it didn't look pretty. but in the end, he's there, he was always crazy about this girl.

Yes but one can't keep using the "teasing=flirting" argument every-time in regards to the UsaMamo couple because there's a hole in it too. Now, I can't believe I'm even putting them on the same level and forgive me for bringing it up but think back to Demando: Remember Prince Demando? Prince of the Black Moon Clan, banished to a planet with barely any people interaction other than his family who worshipped him and was as dense as a rock. Yeah that guy? He had even less social skills than Mamoru and his way of getting his feelings across was just being forceful outright and basically trying to attempt rape! ((...Also a very bad attempt at trying to get someone to like you, worse than the teasing obviously))

Still even with the people skills of an amoeba, Demando still had the capability to actually express "SOME" sort of affection towards Usagi ((No matter how distorted it was.)) Mamoru though? mean comments, all the time. And this is a guy in college! You definitely get the feeling like he had no desire to date her whatsoever.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 11:49 pm

To be honest, I'm really tired of these types of debates. If you can't see that Mamoru loves Usagi in any version of this series then either I don't think you truly understood what was going on or you really just don't like the guy. :/

Yes, the anime did a poor job on their relationship. yes, PGSM is the best version ever. Yes, Myu has the best romantic songs. So um...yes to everything?


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   20th September 2012, 11:55 pm

Mamoru does show affection to Usagi, just not in public and sometimes he has problems with her age. and sometimes Chibiusa is there which interrupts their time. This does not really negate their relationship. What was Mamoru's last word when he died in Stars? How many times did Mamoru jump in front of Usagi to save her life? How many people have hit on Mamoru and he's stayed true to her? I don't understand some of this logic. Just because Usagi and Mamoru don't leave every scene with a certain BGM with flowers all over the screen like Haruka and Michiru doesn't mean they have no relationship... its nice when things are a bit less subtle than that.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:40 am

Small Lady wrote:
To be honest, I'm really tired of these types of debates. If you can't see that Mamoru loves Usagi in any version of this series then either I don't think you truly understood what was going on or you really just don't like the guy. :/

Yes, the anime did a poor job on their relationship. yes, PGSM is the best version ever. Yes, Myu has the best romantic songs. So um...yes to everything?


Yeah, but its still fun to debate this and hear both sides of the argument, both good and bad right? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:43 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Mamoru does show affection to Usagi, just not in public and sometimes he has problems with her age. and sometimes Chibiusa is there which interrupts their time. This does not really negate their relationship. What was Mamoru's last word when he died in Stars? How many times did Mamoru jump in front of Usagi to save her life? How many people have hit on Mamoru and he's stayed true to her? I don't understand some of this logic. Just because Usagi and Mamoru don't leave every scene with a certain BGM with flowers all over the screen like Haruka and Michiru doesn't mean they have no relationship... its nice when things are a bit less subtle than that.

I'd hardly call it "subtle" when Usagi is always all over Mamoru in public and Mamoru is just standing there looking like he's just been publicly humiliated. lol

Also, here's another good point that can be debated! If Mamoru loved Usagi so much, then why did he leave her in Stars to go study in America? Even when he could see on her face that she so desperately wanted him to stay. Could this be taken as wanting to get out? Especially the fact that he does it so soon after the whole "kidnapping Nehellenia incident and with Chibi-Usa officially back in the future."

Just some food for thought. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:49 am

Well he gave her a ring to symbolise their love and Usagi is not selfish enough to ever ask Mamoru to put his dreams on hold. Usagi and Mamoru believe in dreams, that is what they love each other, so no, it is not evidence for anything i think. When Mamoru was on the plane, all he thought about was Usagi. When he was killed he called out "Usako". The name Usako, is a real sign that he has true affection for her.

Quote:

Fisheye: Whats so good about her?
Mamoru: She has alot of dreams

Mamoru is humilated in public because Usagi is being humiliating in public, not because he doesn't love her. It should be noted, Mamoru never asks Usagi to change, if he did have a serious problem with her, why would he stick around...?

To be honest, I don't really think I'll participate on this debate any longer, I really just don't agree with something that to me personally is so obviously true and canon, but I guess its not like that for everyone. Sorry lol X3

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:56 am

@EurAsianGirl wrote:
Small Lady wrote:
To be honest, I'm really tired of these types of debates. If you can't see that Mamoru loves Usagi in any version of this series then either I don't think you truly understood what was going on or you really just don't like the guy. :/

Yes, the anime did a poor job on their relationship. yes, PGSM is the best version ever. Yes, Myu has the best romantic songs. So um...yes to everything?


Yeah, but its still fun to debate this and hear both sides of the argument, both good and bad right? Smile

Not really because i feel that the other side of the argument falls really flat and is just more fanon than canon. :/

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 1:08 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Well he gave her a ring to symbolise their love and Usagi is not selfish enough to ever ask Mamoru to put his dreams on hold. Usagi and Mamoru believe in dreams, that is what they love each other, so no, it is not evidence for anything i think. When Mamoru was on the plane, all he thought about was Usagi. When he was killed he called out "Usako". The name Usako, is a real sign that he has true affection for her.

Quote:

Fisheye: Whats so good about her?
Mamoru: She has alot of dreams

Mamoru is humilated in public because Usagi is being humiliating in public, not because he doesn't love her. It should be noted, Mamoru never asks Usagi to change, if he did have a serious problem with her, why would he stick around...?

To be honest, I don't really think I'll participate on this debate any longer, I really just don't agree with something that to me personally is so obviously true and canon, but I guess its not like that for everyone. Sorry lol X3

That's fine, and understandable to each their own. Smile

Hope you don't mind me using one of your arguments though: That Fish-Eye/Mamoru confrontation you just posted? That's one of the scenes UsaMamo haters use as proof that Mamoru doesn't really love Usagi. You do have to admit that's a rather lame way to say why you love someone. He didn't list how her heart is pure, how she lights up his life and is the one he will always love, he simply responds by saying "She has alot of dreams." Now I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem like a normal answer one would respond when asking why they're with someone.

I'd actually like to hear some more anti- Anime!UsaMamo if only so that I could argue the other side and show proof why he DOES love her. I'm trying to tackle both sides but right now I only have ammo for the anti side. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 1:10 am

Small Lady wrote:
@EurAsianGirl wrote:
Small Lady wrote:
To be honest, I'm really tired of these types of debates. If you can't see that Mamoru loves Usagi in any version of this series then either I don't think you truly understood what was going on or you really just don't like the guy. :/

Yes, the anime did a poor job on their relationship. yes, PGSM is the best version ever. Yes, Myu has the best romantic songs. So um...yes to everything?


Yeah, but its still fun to debate this and hear both sides of the argument, both good and bad right? Smile

Not really because i feel that the other side of the argument falls really flat and is just more fanon than canon. :/

But aren't all versions of Sailor Moon different from each other and each have their own story to tell? Just because something's clearly canon in one version doesn't mean it can't be in another version. The anime isn't as direct about the story or characters like the manga and PGSM are. So its fun to make up our own little head-canons on the characters based upon our interpretation of solely the anime material.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 1:21 am

But the anime is pretty direct about its story. And while head canons are fine, I just don't agree when they are so...anti-canon. I could argue that the other versions are more vague about the story than the anime. The anime is really in your face about it.

On a note this quote:

Quote :
Hope you don't mind me using one of your arguments though: That Fish-Eye/Mamoru confrontation you just posted? That's one of the scenes UsaMamo haters use as proof that Mamoru doesn't really love Usagi. You do have to admit that's a rather lame way to say why you love someone. He didn't list how her heart is pure, how she lights up his life and is the one he will always love, he simply responds by saying "She has alot of dreams." Now I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem like a normal answer one would respond when asking why they're with someone.

She has a lot of dreams is actually a very nice reason to love someone. Also you have to consider the fact that the entire theme of SuperS is DREAMS. So of course he'd say something like that...its just...the writers had to make it something obvious. o.o Also generally the japanese don't usually straightforward say "I love you" its not said very often, like we use it herein the west.

Also whyare you arguing both sides? xD I mean, just argue for the side you are on. I still just feel the arguments that haters put out there are really lame and I hate when they pretty much just ignore canon.

I have like absolutely no problems with head canons, thats fine and all... but when people take it to the extreme and go "Mamoru doesn't like Usagi at all!" i mean...really? o_o A show about love? Where the main heroes are a couple in love... AREN'T really in love? Are we even watching the same show now?

Thats just how I view it. Its just an age old argument that I've grown kinda annoyed with over time. If someone can't at least see that Mamoru does love Usagi, even if they don't like the pairing, then I think they need to not be in this fandom. lol. Thats just how I feel though.

I also think a lot of MamoruxUsagi haters are a lot of those that are english dub lovers. But *shrugs*. Sorry I'm not fun. Sad I'd rather debate about Sailor Cosmos or Helios or something before this debate because I personally don't feel there is a debate. So i'll just step out of this thread so some others can join in. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 1:31 am

Small Lady wrote:
But the anime is pretty direct about its story. And while head canons are fine, I just don't agree when they are so...anti-canon. I could argue that the other versions are more vague about the story than the anime. The anime is really in your face about it.

On a note this quote:

Quote :
Hope you don't mind me using one of your arguments though: That Fish-Eye/Mamoru confrontation you just posted? That's one of the scenes UsaMamo haters use as proof that Mamoru doesn't really love Usagi. You do have to admit that's a rather lame way to say why you love someone. He didn't list how her heart is pure, how she lights up his life and is the one he will always love, he simply responds by saying "She has alot of dreams." Now I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem like a normal answer one would respond when asking why they're with someone.

She has a lot of dreams is actually a very nice reason to love someone. Also you have to consider the fact that the entire theme of SuperS is DREAMS. So of course he'd say something like that...its just...the writers had to make it something obvious. o.o Also generally the japanese don't usually straightforward say "I love you" its not said very often, like we use it herein the west.

Also whyare you arguing both sides? xD I mean, just argue for the side you are on. I still just feel the arguments that haters put out there are really lame and I hate when they pretty much just ignore canon.

I have like absolutely no problems with head canons, thats fine and all... but when people take it to the extreme and go "Mamoru doesn't like Usagi at all!" i mean...really? o_o A show about love? Where the main heroes are a couple in love... AREN'T really in love? Are we even watching the same show now?

Thats just how I view it. Its just an age old argument that I've grown kinda annoyed with over time. If someone can't at least see that Mamoru does love Usagi, even if they don't like the pairing, then I think they need to not be in this fandom. lol. Thats just how I feel though.

I also think a lot of MamoruxUsagi haters are a lot of those that are english dub lovers. But *shrugs*. Sorry I'm not fun. Sad I'd rather debate about Sailor Cosmos or Helios or something before this debate because I personally don't feel there is a debate. So i'll just step out of this thread so some others can join in. Smile

I'm arguing both sides because its fun and its a way to spark the debate lol its okay if you don't find it fun, to each their own I say! Wink

Though you did give me alot of fuel for my fire so I'll just comment on some of the points you made and hopefully others can jump in to comment:

The anime is more about friendship and hope than love, Usagi and Mamoru's story always felt like more of a sub-plot in the anime, or maybe like a seasonal plot ((See Classic and R)) While this argument would ring true to the manga, I don't really see the anime as being about love in the romantic sense. Also Mamoru is not one of the main characters in the anime, he's a side character or helper, like the cats are. The main characters in the anime are Usagi/Chibi-Usa and the Senshi ((Specifically just the Inners unfortunately, my poor Outers! No )) Mamoru was only important to the plot when the plot called for it or when it was a season that centered around his story. Once his story wrapped up, much like the Outers he was put on the back-burner. Whereas the 5 seasons always had Usagi and the Inners front and center, even though they had no personal stories to wrap up or what not.

Also stay tuned, cause I have a lonnnnng headcanon theory about Cosmos that I'll post soon, I just need to reassemble my thoughts on that, ha-ha.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 6:43 am

dude, now you're just making up excuses.

i mean, demando? really?
the guy was CLEARLY obsessed with Usagi. but not in a good way. so, what he displayed was not affection, it was obsession.

after reading everything that you posted so far, I agreen with Miki and Small Lady and thus I'm not participating in this anymore.

Especially when you don't even bother to pick a side.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 7:03 am

I agree with MiMakoChan, in that, I really don't think you can ever compare Dimande to Mamoru. Like, EVER. That man was crazy and sadistic, and he never displays affection. He shows just how much of a freakin' creep he is, and forces Usagi to kiss him against her will.

Yeah. That's a lovingly affectionate gesture.... Riiiiight.

Sorry, but I HATE Dimande (in a series where I generally love *everyone*), and I cannot stand it when people think that Dimande was "sweet" and "misguided", and "awww he really loves her, it's so cute."

NO. No it is not, and you are deluded if you think so. It is NEVER okay for Dimande to do what he did, or to act how he acted, and I think girls who think it is should go seek help.

To even compare silly and quiet "I-throw-myself-in-front-of-pointy-objects-to-save-her" Mamoru to insane and creepy rapist Dimande... It just blows my mind.

Mamoru may have his flaws in the anime, but he LOVES Usagi for who she is (destiny or not, if you watch the first half the first season, you can see their growing affection for one another before destiny ever plays a part), and Dimande DESIRES Usagi out of lust and greed for something pure that he could never have. He wants to overpower her and have her for himself, while Mamoru wants to protect her and keep her safe and love her, and he understands her love and purity for everything.

Rawr! I am sorry for ranting, but rawr! I go a little crazy when people try to even suggest Dimande is "sweet"/etc, and try to say that he is "better" than Mamoru. Like, really?!

No

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 11:58 am

Yes, Verdandi - ITA about Diamond. In the anime this scene might be not explicit, but IMO older watchers definitively feel that it wouldn't be just a kiss... (I'm glad he was stopped in time).

Sailor Uranus wrote:
o_o I fight that kind of stuff constantly on tumblr, lmao.

IMO Yes, Mamoru loves Usagi. He loves her for who she is, in some ways she is everything he's not and he loves her for that - they complete each other; he keeps her grounded while she lifts him up into craziness. And he adores it. It had nothing to do with destiny or their past, *coughcoughleaving this here*cough*and this*cough* ahem.

Sailor Uranus, is there any possibility you could put these posts here? I still see just the page on tumbir... Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:23 pm

Hey everybody. Be nice to each other about this now. Don't be too heated or I'll lock this thread. This is supposed to be civil and friendly. If you don't like the debate, don't participate in it, okay? It's simple.

I don't wanna become miss mean mod, but I will if I have to.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:29 pm

Ah, sorry. I'll stay out of this thread. I apologize for my last post. I still think it has a good message, but I probably should have edited it to being less uh, argumentative?

Sorry guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:34 pm

It's alright. No one's in trouble. But remember (this is to everyone): this is supposed to be friendly. Heated is okay, but too heated isn't and it felt like the thread was going that direction. If it's too heated, people start getting angry, mean, etc. and we don't need anything breaking out over something as silly as, well, whether or not Mamoru loves Usagi in the anime.

You're okay Verdandi. No worries Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Does Anime Mamoru truly love Usagi?   21st September 2012, 12:51 pm

@EurAsianGirl wrote:

I have to ask: Yes, Mamoru still stayed with Usagi despite finding out that "She" was the Princess, but one also must remember that really after learning who the Princess of his dreams was, and how that's connected to his past. Don't you think Mamoru would *want* to hang on to her just so he could have some semblance, connection to his past? This is a guy with a blank slate, completely disconnected from the world around him. Even if he didn't intially want to be the Princesse's romantic partner, once he found out he WAS and heard this whole story about Serenity and Endymion, what if the only reason he's hanging onto it is because its all he has as far as memories go? Even, if yes, by doing so he has to put up with that Odango-Atama who's constantly annoying him!

Do you really think that for anybody it would be possible to stay with someone who annoys you just because of past life? Especially considering that Mamoru on Earth has met a great deal of other girls. And nothing would keep him with Usagi, cause he has his memories, with or without her.

And Mamoru clearly likes being annoyed by Odango Atama. He even seeks more occasions for annoyance.


@EurAsianGirl wrote:
Remember, in S and SuperS, once we see them officially together and going out on dates and stuff, we mostly see Mamoru being either disinterested, embarrssed, fatherly to Usagi or all of the above!

In my country one could go to jail for behaving in such fatherly way Wink And disinterested he is never. A little embarrassed maybe a few times - but it only proves how patient and flexible he is with her. And he never uses the fact of her being embarrassing as a reason for being out of it.


@EurAsianGirl wrote:
Also, look at the Doom Tree Arc for evidence. Until Mamoru got his memories back he never felt anything but friendship towards Usagi at best ((And thinking she's a loony stalker at worst)) Their relationship never really progressed until he got his memories back.

It did actually - even aliens noticed it and that's why they tortured Usagi and Mamoru.

And his progression could be seen earlier, when they played together and when they took care of that baby.

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