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 DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?

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PostSubject: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 4:11 am

In the Sailor Moon series, there has always been the idea that "true love conquers all and always justified as long as its pure" however the love between Serenity and Endymion destroyed at least three kingdoms known for their peace... The Silver Millennium of the Moon, The Golden Kingdom and Beryl's unnamed one not to mention her mother and friends. Serenity, of course must have been aware that it was against their laws for Moon and Earth folk to mix, or else she wouldn't have to keep sneaking to Earth. We do know that Beryl's invasion of the Moon was not entirely of her own accord, as her feelings of bitterness and jealousy towards Serenity were manipulated by Metalia following the meteor shower. (and as Hotaru kindly points out in SM:AS, which did have Naoko's input into it by the way, and doesn't actually seem to contradict much existing canon, that Beryl wasn't a bad person after all).

So what did you think, is Serenity a selfish and immature little girl (as quite loudly pointed out by PGSM) or was her behaviour justified. The anime sort of skates over this issue though, I would assume because its a little too hard for young viewers to grasp, its much easier to sort people into good and evil.

Personally I think this also offers a very strong comparison that Usagi and Serenity are not one in the same, as Serenity in three out of four canons, commits suicide following Endymion's deaths (the musicals even go as far as to have Beryl mock Usagi about not being able to kill herself this time, and in another case, have Usagi apologise to Beryl for all of Serenity's behaviour). Usagi on the other hand, does not seem ready to let the rest of the world fall around her if she loses Mamoru, as what happened in the first and fifth series. She might cry for a while, but she is strong enough to keep going (and who says Usagi isn't mature?)

Serenity: Good or Bad?

My personal opinion, Serenity is not a bad person, her concept of the world, however is rather limited being a Princess and she was simply incapable of seeing the wider picture, and it was not directly her fault and I personally blame it on Metalia. I do however, put more blame on Serenity than Beryl.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 4:55 am

I think it was entirely justified, for the simple fact that it brought the two planets to be joined in peace and unity. When such mistrust and racism exists between two groups of people, the first step isn't to ignore it and continue the cycle but to try to break it and get the two groups to understand each other, which I think was all brought upon because of Serenity and Endymion's miracle romance.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 6:10 am

@EurAsianGirl wrote:
I think it was entirely justified, for the simple fact that it brought the two planets to be joined in peace and unity. When such mistrust and racism exists between two groups of people, the first step isn't to ignore it and continue the cycle but to try to break it and get the two groups to understand each other, which I think was all brought upon because of Serenity and Endymion's miracle romance.

Sure, but I don't think that bringing peace and love to all was in Serenity and Endymion's intentions. They didn't get together and think "Let's change the world!", that only really happened as a side effect waaay in the future. They just wanted to fall in love and be in love.

But yesh, I don't think Serenity ever meant for anything *bad* to happen. She's too pure hearted to see that such bad things could be a possible consequence for something as beautiful as love. But I do think that there was a certain one-track-mindedness that could have been avoided.

I love Beryl, so maybe I am biased xD But I kind of sympathize with her way more than I do with Serenity in the past. We don't see terribly much of Beryl's past, but I don't think she really *wanted* to cause a war, no more than Serenity wanted to. But I think Beryl was more possessed and had her jealousy heightened to such a degree that she was never the same person (Kinda like Chibiusa and Black Lady).

Serenity, however, knew what she was doing and she knew that interactions between the moon and Earth were forbidden but she chose to go anyway. Again, I don't think she *wanted* to make anything bad happen, but I do think that she had more of a *choice* in the matter than Beryl did.

Having a choice makes all the difference, in my opinion.

So uh, to the point xD No, I don't think they were justified at all. But they chose to go with it, to continue, and they have to live with the repercussions of their choices.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 8:26 am

Ooo. Fun topic.

You know, when it comes to personal relationships, it's usually other people that dubs the relationship bad just because they don't like it. And sometimes people, such as Beryl, get jealous. Because it's not as if Serenity and Endymion were in an abusive relationship. The only "bad" that happened in that relationship was that they snuck around. And this always happens when parents say no or it's just understood to be forbidden. But honestly, who's place is it in the story to dub their relationship as "bad"? o_o just because it's different or someone doesn't like it doesn't mean it's bad.

So, though it's said Serenity is responsible for the fall of the kingdoms.... Did she attack them personally? Did she use her power to destory them herself? Or is blame just put on her shoulders because they basically can when in reality the people destoryed their own kingdoms "because of Serenity"?

As for Beryl.... I don't care how jealous you are. That doesn't mean be a jealous, bitter, you know what and invade the Moon Kingdom and patronize Serenity. That's petty and she should be able to be held accountable for her own actions. She may not have been a bad person, but her actions were bad. Saying she's "innocent" and it's all Serenity's fault for Beryl's actions basically says "it's okay if you're jealous of someone's relationship and you can sabotage the relationship and the people personally. And it's not your fault; it's theirs." Makes no sense, right? Because that wouldn't be okay in real life. I mean yeah, you may get jealous of a relationship, especially if you love someone and they get snatched away. But you just have to leave it be, especially if you're happy. They say "if you love someone, let them go." and if they come back, they're yours.

Edit: Yes I know Metalia was involved. It was probably the dark drive in Beryl that attracted Metalia, so...

I'm also a fan of soul mates and going against everything, even rules, forbidden love, etc. so naturally I'm going to side with Serenity and Endymion.

You can't blame Serenity for the actions of people, such as Beryl. Beryl should be held accountable for what she had done. Serenity's "crime" was loving someone she shouldn't have.

Also, I have read (I think even by you, Miki XD) that perhaps Serenity stole Endymion from Beryl...well...that's just one angle and not commonly known I don't believe. But that being said, if that were the case, part of the fault would be Endymion's; he got involved with Serenity by himself. She didn't force him to be with her. Is it wrong that she stole Endymion? Absolutely. But is that the usual story we know? Not so much. So...

(More to come, probably)

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 8:47 am

Hmm, well it's not as if either of them were just regular citizen either. I mean, they were both high royalty of their respective kingdoms---kingdoms which were at odd with each other. It was forbidden for them to have interactions with each other, and they chose to continue seeing each other even as things heated up between their two kingdoms.

Like I said, I don't think they should really be blamed. I mean, it's not like they are the ones who started the war, but I do believe their actions and their choice to continue seeing each other certainly exacerbated the situation and made it escalated perhaps far more than it would have without.

I guess it's all up to choices for me xD They chose to continue seeing each other, and they chose to do it even with their kingdoms arguing with one another. They both have duties to their kingdoms, being prince and princess, and I think "interacting and falling in love with the other royal family" wasn't part of that =P

But on the other hand, I do love the tragic story, and I do love that they decided to continue to love each other no matter the consequences. It's a beautiful story and I love it.

But I don't think it should totally excuse their choices and actions either.


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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 2:59 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Ooo. Fun topic.

You know, when it comes to personal relationships, it's usually other people that dubs the relationship bad just because they don't like it. And sometimes people, such as Beryl, get jealous. Because it's not as if Serenity and Endymion were in an abusive relationship. The only "bad" that happened in that relationship was that they snuck around. And this always happens when parents say no or it's just understood to be forbidden. But honestly, who's place is it in the story to dub their relationship as "bad"? o_o just because it's different or someone doesn't like it doesn't mean it's bad.

So, though it's said Serenity is responsible for the fall of the kingdoms.... Did she attack them personally? Did she use her power to destory them herself? Or is blame just put on her shoulders because they basically can when in reality the people destoryed their own kingdoms "because of Serenity"?

As for Beryl.... I don't care how jealous you are. That doesn't mean be a jealous, bitter, you know what and invade the Moon Kingdom and patronize Serenity. That's petty and she should be able to be held accountable for her own actions. She may not have been a bad person, but her actions were bad. Saying she's "innocent" and it's all Serenity's fault for Beryl's actions basically says "it's okay if you're jealous of someone's relationship and you can sabotage the relationship and the people personally. And it's not your fault; it's theirs." Makes no sense, right? Because that wouldn't be okay in real life. I mean yeah, you may get jealous of a relationship, especially if you love someone and they get snatched away. But you just have to leave it be, especially if you're happy. They say "if you love someone, let them go." and if they come back, they're yours.

Edit: Yes I know Metalia was involved. It was probably the dark drive in Beryl that attracted Metalia, so...

I'm also a fan of soul mates and going against everything, even rules, forbidden love, etc. so naturally I'm going to side with Serenity and Endymion.

You can't blame Serenity for the actions of people, such as Beryl. Beryl should be held accountable for what she had done. Serenity's "crime" was loving someone she shouldn't have.

Also, I have read (I think even by you, Miki XD) that perhaps Serenity stole Endymion from Beryl...well...that's just one angle and not commonly known I don't believe. But that being said, if that were the case, part of the fault would be Endymion's; he got involved with Serenity by himself. She didn't force him to be with her. Is it wrong that she stole Endymion? Absolutely. But is that the usual story we know? Not so much. So...

(More to come, probably)

With that said though, shouldn't Endymion be held responsible too? I see all this talk about placing the blame on either Beryl or Serenity and while the manga and PGSM does sort of paint it as their fault, we shouldn't absolve Endymion of all responsibility either. After all, his Shittenou turned to Beryl for a reason... like Beryl with Metallia, the Shittenou weren't just brainwashed and infused with dark energy, but Beryl particularly took advantage of their feelings of abandoment by Endymion and their secret resentment of the moon so as to make them think that Endymion was actually the one betraying them and the Earth instead of the other way around.

I honestly don't think the whole Silver Millenium, Moon-Earth conflict is as black and white as we think. Its a fascinating topic that I wish Naoko explored more, as there's so many facets and mysteries to it all, there's definitely a hint of political intrigue in the whole thing and it makes me feel that Serenity and Endymion in the end were ultimately chess pieces in this whole game of political "one-uppedness and planet conflicts." Tragic victims, of a whole war that errupted just out of human's negative emotions and bigotry towards those that were different.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 3:02 pm

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there was any way Serenity and Endymion would have not been together, it is destiny in my view, they did not mean to cause trouble, its just the way things happened, same in the case of Beryl, she was a very lonely woman who fell in love and watched as the man she loved pursued a romance that would only end in destruction. If anyone's to blame its Metalia. The only way I think it would have been possible was if Endymion had married Beryl politically but I do not think this would occur in the Sailor Moon series.

I recommend everyone read the manga in tandem with Another Story, it really does just make the pieces fit together. It even shows Beryl before and after her possession.

I think Serenity still needed to open her eyes to the wider world because I think she was quite naive and did not comprehend the entire situation.

So in the end, I blame Metalia for the fall of the Kingdoms, but I do think Serenity and Endymion should have been more aware of the situation at hand.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 3:05 pm

Quote :
I honestly don't think the whole Silver Millenium, Moon-Earth conflict is as black and white as we think. Its a fascinating topic that I wish Naoko explored more, as there's so many facets and mysteries to it all, there's definitely a hint of political intrigue in the whole thing and it makes me feel that Serenity and Endymion in the end were ultimately chess pieces in this whole game of political "one-uppedness and planet conflicts." Tragic victims, of a whole war that errupted just out of human's negative emotions and bigotry towards those that were different.

I don't think the Moon and Earth had very much contact politically or not, if they did, the Princess wouldn't be forbidden to go down there. Likely the Moon was regarded as a God-like world (with their advanced technology and their incredibly long life spans) that the Earthlings did not, I believe that was one of the reasons given for their hatred. Lets not forget that Serenity instigated the relationship and pursued Endymion, rather than the other way around. If Serenity had kept to herself, Endymion might have married Beryl and joined their kingdoms in peace and harmony. But again I don't think destiny would let that happen.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 3:33 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
But that being said, if that were the case, part of the fault would be Endymion's; he got involved with Serenity by himself. She didn't force him to be with her.

Did you miss this, or...? XD this can apply largely to everything I said.

But Beryl definitely has some fault. Not all; a lot was Metallia.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 3:47 pm

I just think if we blame Beryl we also have to blame Serenity.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 4:02 pm

But why blame Serenity, exactly? I feel like I'm missing something...

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 4:04 pm

For pursuing a forbidden love that everyone knew would only end in destruction. I do think it was destiny and unavoidable, but I think if Beryl is going to be blamed for being a human, that was manipulated by Chaos, I think Serenity should also be blamed for actively going against the order of things.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 4:18 pm

But I feel like that just goes back to what I said earlier; it was only bad because people dubbed it that way. You can pretty much use this argument along with other relationships people don't like (i.e. gay relationships, interacial relationships). Cause people are weird. People just dub things bad because of them being different. I mean it makes me wonder, was there a good reason why it was forbidden for moon people and earth people to meet and have interactions?

I kind of see it as destruction because other people caused the destruction. Serenity and Endymion didn't actively cause destruction personally.

(genuine questions. I like that you are so versed in like all the Sailor Moon versions Very Happy)

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 4:23 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
But I feel like that just goes back to what I said earlier; it was only bad because people dubbed it that way. You can pretty much use this argument along with other relationships people don't like (i.e. gay relationships, interacial relationships). Cause people are weird. People just dub things bad because of them being different. I mean it makes me wonder, was there a good reason why it was forbidden for moon people and earth people to meet and have interactions?

I kind of see it as destruction because other people caused the destruction. Serenity and Endymion didn't actively cause destruction personally.

(genuine questions. I like that you are so versed in like all the Sailor Moon versions Very Happy)

Despite their advisors telling them over and over that it would only resort in destruction? In PGSM, their relationship even caused the Princess herself to destroy the entire world all on her own.

But I do love Serenity x. Endymion, I've got nothing against it, I do not think their relationship was "bad" or "wrong", it is what it is. I just feel that, from an unbiased point of view it was one of the triggers in the fall of their Kingdoms and a pretty large one at that. The reason was not specifically told but I think it must have been to the Moon being a sort of place of Gods, since they called Queen Serenity a goddess, so it was both revered and feared as something sacred, until the Earthlings became corrupted with selfish greed.


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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 4:38 pm

Ah okay. That's understandable. And I remember that in PGSM. Serenity man. Tsk tsk.

I feel like the advisers I guess just knew that war would break out due to Serenity and Endymion, but the couple didn't do it themselves. Except in PGSM where Serenity did it...

But yeah the idea that the Moon is sort of a place of Gods, that would make sense. You wouldn't want Gods and humans to mix (and yet that happened apparently a lot in Greek myth).

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 5:01 pm

Also, in the Musicals, it is suggested that Beryl was to marry Endymion and Serenity stole him away from her. There's even a song where Pluto and Beryl sing about falling in love with him and dealing with the feelings.

The manga isn't very clear on who Beryl was in the past. Was she part of an arranged marriage with Endymion and happened to also love him? Was she just someone how always loved him from afar?

The way Beryl clings to him after being corrupted and evil (especially the way she does it in PGSM), makes me feel she and Endymion were once very close and possibly betrothed and maybe even a bit intimate (if we want to go down more headcannon route). After watching PGSM, the Myus that deal with this, the anime, and reading the manga, I think I can see where Miki is coming from.

I really wish the manga and anime had expanded on this. The manga could have really gone with it and made Beryl a sympathetic villain. The Myus make my heart break for her and even though she was already one of my favorite villains, shes probably now my #1 favorite.

But yeah, I can easily see Serenity and Endymions relationship as a bad thing from an outsiders perspective. Does this make their love unpure or wrong? No, not really.

I also enjoy t his as a way that it really shows that Usagi is a strong mature character, who has the chance to do things right. Which is what makes me love Usagi's character more.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 5:44 pm

Small Lady wrote:
Also, in the Musicals, it is suggested that Beryl was to marry Endymion and Serenity stole him away from her. There's even a song where Pluto and Beryl sing about falling in love with him and dealing with the feelings.

And Serenity would be wrong for that. But Endymion is also in the wrong too for going to Serenity. I'm sure Serenity didn't force him; he went to be with her on his own accord.


Small Lady wrote:
The way Beryl clings to him after being corrupted and evil (especially the way she does it in PGSM), makes me feel she and Endymion were once very close and possibly betrothed and maybe even a bit intimate (if we want to go down more headcannon route). After watching PGSM, the Myus that deal with this, the anime, and reading the manga, I think I can see where Miki is coming from.

I can as well. Definitely. But I do think you know, if we're going to point fingers, it should be at Endymion, Metalia, and Beryl. Of course Serenity too, but moreso at Endymion and Beryl. Because if this were the case, the couple of things you stated above with the Myus, then while yes what Serenity was wrong, but Endymion was moreso as well as Beryl. If you are that jealous and bitter...there's a problem. Now obvious Metalia came and did her work on Beryl and heightened this jealousy and bitterness, but obviously there was already a high amount of jealousy and bitterness inside Beryl that I'm guessing drew in Metalia from the getgo. Meaning, Beryl had these dark feelings and motives, Metalia just heightened them. I know it really sucks to have the person you love swept out from under you, but to be that enraged, bitter, and jealous to the point where you want to do dark things (and a dark being sees this and gloms on), that sounds more to me like a psycho in the works. And this is without Metalia. So there is definitely fault with Beryl by herself. Perhaps she just snapped and Metalia made it 100x worse.

Small Lady wrote:
I really wish the manga and anime had expanded on this. The manga could have really gone with it and made Beryl a sympathetic villain. The Myus make my heart break for her and even though she was already one of my favorite villains, shes probably now my #1 favorite.

I agree! I would enjoy this. It would give a much better perspective on Beryl and what could have gone down.

Small Lady wrote:
But yeah, I can easily see Serenity and Endymions relationship as a bad thing from an outsiders perspective. Does this make their love unpure or wrong? No, not really.

I can too, using ideas Miki and you have tossed out.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 5:48 pm

Oh I never said to not blame Endymion. He was completely in the wrong too, especially if we go along with the notion that he was already engaged.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 5:50 pm

Also, pretty sure Beryl snapped. Who is to say that while I'm a normal sane person that if something that horrible happened that I wouldn't snap? You never know with some people. :/

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 5:58 pm

Yeah... Poor Beryl.

But I will still wonder, with Beryl aside, why it was forbidden for the Moon people and people of Earth to interact...unless we're just going to go on the Moon was looked at as sort of a place of Gods, like Miki suggested.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 6:00 pm

Well, I've seen the suggestion that the Moon viewed the Earth as backwater and uncivilized.

Either way, does it specifically state there was a ban or that fraternization was not culturally accepted?

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 6:14 pm

I think in the scenes in the manga, where Serenity goes to earth, its mentioned that she's not allowed to be there in dialogue.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   25th September 2012, 6:27 pm

And then that brings the question as to why she's not allowed to be there. I guess all we can do is go on speculation that the people of the Moon were basically above those on Earth.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   27th September 2012, 9:22 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
But I feel like that just goes back to what I said earlier; it was only bad because people dubbed it that way. You can pretty much use this argument along with other relationships people don't like (i.e. gay relationships, interacial relationships). Cause people are weird. People just dub things bad because of them being different. I mean it makes me wonder, was there a good reason why it was forbidden for moon people and earth people to meet and have interactions?

I kind of see it as destruction because other people caused the destruction. Serenity and Endymion didn't actively cause destruction personally.

(genuine questions. I like that you are so versed in like all the Sailor Moon versions Very Happy)

Exactly this! Its intolerance and prejudice at its worst, and that should never be tolerated. Endymion and Serenity were completely in the right by falling in love and not caring what planet the other was from. If people couldn't deal with that, that was just their own bigotry talking. One should never, ever, ever say that the bigots are in the right ever or follow what they say because its just giving them power.

Wow, now that I think of it, Sailor Moon is an excellent commentary on racism and has a lot of themes dealing with that subject! Was Naoko trying to make a point about the dangers of it? If so, good job!

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   27th September 2012, 9:31 am

It can be brought up, the theme of racism and such, but I don't think Naoko was trying to comment on that with the Moon Kingdom idea. Since she never fleshed out a lot of details (at least, we haven't seen any other details, for all we know she has pages and pages of notes on the Moon Kingdom...), it can be safe to assume that she mostly wrote the tragic love story as just that, a tragic love story, to further add to the story.

However, its always good to think about these themes in Sailor Moon.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   27th September 2012, 9:37 am

Yeah! I mean come on, it's like English class. The curtains aren't blue just because in a story; they're blue to symbolize the silent depression in the main character. And more. Can't be because the author thought it was a lovely color. I mean how absurd to think that Naoko just made Serenity and Endymion have a tragic love story just because she wanted to. There must be hidden themes and symbolism. Pfffft. >.>

XD

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   27th September 2012, 9:42 am

Well the only reason I say that is because just how rushed she was with the story, I think if that hadn't been the case we could be having much different discussions. XD

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   27th September 2012, 9:45 am

I feel like if she does have anything like notebooks full of this stuff, she should just release them. We'd get what we want, she'd get money and just more fuel for Sailor Moon love. It's really a win-win. So there's no excuses.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   27th September 2012, 10:05 am

I want tocomment on this...but...this discussion could be a whole other topic and we are getting off topic of this one.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Was Serenity and Endymion's Love Justified?   28th September 2012, 3:33 am

Small Lady wrote:
It can be brought up, the theme of racism and such, but I don't think Naoko was trying to comment on that with the Moon Kingdom idea. Since she never fleshed out a lot of details (at least, we haven't seen any other details, for all we know she has pages and pages of notes on the Moon Kingdom...), it can be safe to assume that she mostly wrote the tragic love story as just that, a tragic love story, to further add to the story.

However, its always good to think about these themes in Sailor Moon.

I don't know... Sure it might have been rushed, but I think the manga is well written enough that we're able to see the hidden themes and symbolism within it. For example, the third arc, S, was quite obviously centered around religion and reenacting the Jesus Christ story with Usagi.

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