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 DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)

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PostSubject: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 4:29 am

So I uploaded this on tumblr recently. A quick comparison of the ten Soldiers with ten of the main villains from the series:

Basically: many of the villains in Sailor Moon actually suffer from similar problems as the "good" characters in Sailor Moon, though they tend to react alot more extremely (because murder and kill all the things ever) and don't handle it well. But to give them their dues, they tend to deal with the issues on a much much wider scale. e.g. Lilith and the deaths of hundreds upon hundreds of her children against Usagi and her dozen or so friend's deaths or Ami and being unable to socialise and Dark Plasman being rejected by the entire Solar System. In addition to this, most of them had never been brought up with the ideals of "love, friendship, honesty, charity, kindness and faith", so how in the world would these villains supposed to utilise them if they had never known it? Does it really make it their fault?

So in short, are the villains really such bad people? Are they that different to the Sailor Soldiers? Discuss:

The Comparisons:

#1 - Makoto & Professor Tomoe

Just wanted to protect those closest to them



#2 - Minako & Death Vulcan

Had everything they knew torn away from them



#3 - Ami & Dark Plasman

Just wanted friends



#4 - Rei & Sailor Galaxia

Felt they needed to prove themselves as individuals



#5 - Chibiusa & Queen Nehelenia

Just wanted to be a beautiful elegant lady



#6 - Michiru & Fiore

Wanted to save the one they loved at any cost



#7 - Haruka & Prince Demand

Felt sacrifice was the only way to save their people



#8 - Hotaru & Death Lamia

Had forgotten what it was like to be a normal human



#9 - Setsuna & Beryl

Fated to an eternity of unrequited love



#10 - Usagi & Lilith of Darkness

Only wanted a just world of equality



Quick summary of the myu characters added for those who are unfamiliar since there aren't enough main villains in the series, I wanted to only include one from each story, the rest you should be hopefully familiar with:


Death Vulcan: (The Sealing of the Super Planet Vulcan) - half the personification of a two-faced planet on the other side of the Sun, between Mercury and the Sun itself. In the age of the Silver Millennium, Princess Serenity split this planet into two, a light and dark side (the light being called Vulcan and the dark being called Death Vulcan), his grudge and pain of being torn from his other half led him to ally people under him to shatter the Silver Crystal.

Dark Plasman: (The Legend of Kaguya Island) - part of the personification of the Comet Coatl. When the Solar System's order was arranged, his comet was left out, in 3000BCE, Coatl, lonely, sought to supersede the Earth, Princess Moon managed to use the Moon's gravitational pull to throw the trajectory of Coatl away for 5000 years. These additional 5000 years led Coatl to become even colder and lonelier than ever before.

Death Lamia: (The Overture of Last Dracul) - a female vampire of hundreds of years old, throughout the musical, she attempts to create a new race of humans known as Homunculi to drink the blood of as she feels the modern humans have become too corrupted. She is torn between her vague memories of her normal life before becoming a vampire and her own bloodlust.

Lilith of Darkness: (The Forest of Transylvania) - a woman from the very beginning of Mankind, the first woman created (before Eve) by God. Lilith refused to marry Adam on the principle that she didn't see why women had to be subservient to men (explaining why Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs), as punishment, God forced Lilith to give birth to one hundred children every day and then killed them all. Lilith went mad and attempted to drown herself in the Red Sea but was saved by Samael (Satan), whom she mated with. Lilith spent a great deal in the Underworld, in the year 2000, when the Silver Crystal was at its weakest. She sought to annihilate the world and create a new world of equality where men and women are equal and spirit, human, animal and plant all can exist together.


/Miki's opinion:

Though I do not believe any of the ten villains to be justified 100%, I do believe they were lost individuals who did not know how to love properly and this was manipulated by Chaos. I think they were not "evil" but needed to learn a lesson or two from Sailor Moon (in the case of many of the above thankfully, Usagi did teach them true humanity)

I do however feel that these "villains" in particular are not so different to the Sailor Soldiers in most cases.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 5:59 am

my favorite comparison is Chibiusa and Nehellenia.^^ <3

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 11:32 am

Interesting... I do like the Chibi-Usagi and Nehellenia as well as the Professor Tomoe and Jupiter comparisons. (Not to sure about either of these in the manga, the anime these comparisons are true — to a degree.)

Although, I do wonder which of the anime or manga pacific characters in terms of enemy-hero/ine are likely to get compared.
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 11:39 am

I really love this. A LOT (Especially the fact that you compared Pluto and Beryl <3 <3 I love those two so much!)

But I agree with your thoughts. I think a lot of the villains are supposed to show the extremities of these situations.

And I think comparing them to the Senshi is on point because I think they are supposed to play off each other. The villains are generally the ones who show how these strong emotions can go *badly*, while the senshi can show how these emotions can be used for good.

(Also, which musical are the Beryl and Pluto screens from?)

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 12:02 pm

This. Is. Awesome.

So awesome that it will take me a while to think about it, and I have no insight right now. I just wanted to say that this is awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 4:02 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I really love this. A LOT (Especially the fact that you compared Pluto and Beryl <3 <3 I love those two so much!)

But I agree with your thoughts. I think a lot of the villains are supposed to show the extremities of these situations.

And I think comparing them to the Senshi is on point because I think they are supposed to play off each other. The villains are generally the ones who show how these strong emotions can go *badly*, while the senshi can show how these emotions can be used for good.

(Also, which musical are the Beryl and Pluto screens from?)

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 4:44 pm

I think my favorite comparisons are Rei and Galaxia, which is like...wow I never thought of it that way, but yeah, especially with PGSM Rei, I totally see that now.

Chibi-Usa and Nehellenia need to get together and have a girls night.

And omg Pluto and Beryl. T_T Onna no Ronsou T_T



Edit: if you just want to see the song, stop watching the video at about 2:20 er more like 2:40...apparently i'm dumb. xD

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 5:43 pm

Miki, I am just. Wow. Excellent, excellent comparison. I would have never thuoght of things in this light. Especially with the characters I do know. This is like, accurate. And I love the Chibiusa/Nehelenia one as well; they just want to be loved and beautiful.

To answer your question, I'd have to say the only thing that seperates these villains from the senshi would be the fact that their "darkness" was a bit stronger and therefore attracted Chaos which heightened this darkness inside of them which made them act more extreme.

I enjoy villains that you can relate to and have actual stories. That aren't just bad to be bad or because they're power hungry.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 6:07 pm

What about Black Lady and Dark Mercury Wink

I would think some more of them might have their own Dark Sides...

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   26th September 2012, 6:52 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I really love this. A LOT (Especially the fact that you compared Pluto and Beryl <3 <3 I love those two so much!)

But I agree with your thoughts. I think a lot of the villains are supposed to show the extremities of these situations.

And I think comparing them to the Senshi is on point because I think they are supposed to play off each other. The villains are generally the ones who show how these strong emotions can go *badly*, while the senshi can show how these emotions can be used for good.

I forgot to say that I really love this idea here, Verdandi.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   27th September 2012, 7:35 am

Really interesting idea - I've never thought about it this way!
Though I've always felt that the villains in Sailor Moon aren't really truly bad people. Except maybe Prince Demand. Rape is not cool. D:

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   27th September 2012, 8:46 am

While rape is definitely not a good thing, I think at that point he was so twisted by Wiseman that I think he was going to do anything to get what he wanted. If he hadn't been manipulated by Wiseman, I think he may have went about things differently. He still would have this infatuation with Serenity, but maybe he wouldn't have acted on his feelings in such a strong manner? Especially in the way that he did because he pretty much abandoned his clan when it came to that.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   28th September 2012, 1:42 pm

Do you think Wiseman manipulated the members of the Black Moon clan to be otherwise incestuous, too, though?

I wonder about that. Esmeraude gets really deeply upset that Diamond doesn't want her the way she wants him. And Sappir...that's a whole mess too. The family is definitely twisted, to say the least. I don't think their original crime that had them exiled to Nemesis really merited banishment, but the stuff they've done after that - it's hard to say if they really are corrupt people in the first place.

Rape is bad. Incest is pretty terrible too though. >___>

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   28th September 2012, 2:44 pm

I don't think it was mentioned that Esmeraude was blood related to Dimande, but we don't really know how the genetics and reproducing went on that planet anyway...

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   28th September 2012, 4:41 pm

Small Lady wrote:
I don't think it was mentioned that Esmeraude was blood related to Dimande, but we don't really know how the genetics and reproducing went on that planet anyway...

Though I never felt that they were closely related by blood, they only made reference to Petz and her sisters being related by blood and Saphir and Demand being brothers, perhaps they had common ancestors (by the sounds of the situation they most certainly did) or else they were just various families that banded together but I think this sounds like an idea for another debate. I think though Demand believed he had good intentions, he went about the wrong way about it, he's especially less justified than other villains because his own brother was telling him over and over and over that he felt Demand was making a mistake, most other villains never did have a voice of reason, and so wouldn't actually be able to comprehend an alternative to their methods

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   28th September 2012, 4:43 pm

So speaking of Wiseman, who would we compare him too?

He is really just going for revenge, i can think of the instance in Transylvania no Mori where Sailor Uranus goes after the vampires to seek revenge for what happened to Sailor Neptune in Last Dracul, but i don't know if that's the best comparison.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   28th September 2012, 4:49 pm

Small Lady wrote:
So speaking of Wiseman, who would we compare him too?

He is really just going for revenge, i can think of the instance in Transylvania no Mori where Sailor Uranus goes after the vampires to seek revenge for what happened to Sailor Neptune in Last Dracul, but i don't know if that's the best comparison.

As Wiseman, in the timeline of the series is Death Phantom, and therefore a pure form of Chaos, its going to be difficult to compare him to anyone really, we don't really know much about Wiseman when he was actually alive, so its a little tricky to judge. Since Wiseman's intentions were, at least in my opinion, purely malicious, however, you could also argue that originally he believed Neoqueen Serenity was some kind of purging dictator, if he believed that evil needed to exist to counter good then he could actually be compared to Usagi herself. But, in all honesty, Wiseman is yuck how could you ever do something like that to Esmeraude, get him away from my characters.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   28th September 2012, 5:22 pm

Lol, Wiseman is pretty yuck.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   29th September 2012, 1:03 am

Of all the characters listed, I feel the manga's Galaxia, is the most inclined towards "true evil", I found it VERY hard i felt to sympathise with her manga's portrayal, (anime and myu tend to just blame everything on Chaos, so its easier to like her there) but the point is, there are many people who exist in that state of the mind, to feel they have to shine all over the rest or else prove their worth. The idea that "people need people", I feel has always been a major issue in the series, and its particularly notable for Rei especially in PGSM. So in the end, are Rei and Galaxia really that different, they both push people away to quite a great extent and only Usagi seems to be pushy enough to get through to them. True Galaxia killed alot of people and Rei never killed anyone she couldn't avoid, but its still a wide gap. The Rei/Galaxia one is the one I'm iffy-est about here. Next would come Haruka/Demand. But I think Demand truly thought he was in the right, however he was a vain and selfish individual who went after Usagi, in my opinion, simply because he couldn't have her, he rejected his beliefs as soon as he found something "better" to do. Which deviates from Haruka who appears to have sacrificed a proper relationship with Michiru for the sake of their mission prior to the events of the Infinity arc.

Meanwhile you've got Usagi and Lilith, who both were pretty much trying to do the same thing, they believed their respective beliefs about justice and equality were right and sought to purge what opposed them to create a better world for all.

So I think, there is a level of villains on the scale of Evil, because some do have genuine good intentions or else they simply don't know how to react because they have never fully understood concepts like love and friendship (in the case of Dark Plasman or Nehelenia)

But in the end, I think the villains are alot less different to the girls than they're given credit, they're just faced with problems on a wider scale that pushed many of them over the edge of reason and sanity -definitely the case for manga Demand when Saphir died. (Hotaru's childhood of being outcast from society vs. Lamia's hundreds of years, Ami's lack of friends vs. Coatl's 5000 years of solitude) What do you guys think

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   29th September 2012, 9:50 am

I think that convincing villains should have traits and motivations understandable for normal people. IMO, it's is great strength of the series to present villains like that. It also helps to redeem so many bad guys.

As for Diamond - yes, rape is bad and I don't think he can be justified by Wiseman's influence. Though IMO love for his brother saves him from being purely evil.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   29th September 2012, 12:14 pm

Yeah, I don't think Wiseman's influence justifies his actions, it just makes me wonder if he would have done what he did without Wiseman's influence. I mean, if he still would have kidnapped Usagi and tried to rape her, without Wiseman's influence, then he's just a messed up twisted person. If Wiseman was really that influencial, then perhaps he can be seen as more sympathetic (in my eyes at least, i really don't like the guy at all, i'm just curious how much of his actions were Wiseman influenced).

Anyway, Miki, I agree with what you are saying. A lot of the villains have become corrupt just because of the extent of their pain, while the Senshi can sympathize with them, I don't think, with the case of some villains, they truly can understand. The only exception to that is Beryl and Pluto, since Pluto has been around for so long and having to deal with the heart ache of unrequited love.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   29th September 2012, 5:26 pm

I think that although Demand is unjustified and its probably under mostly his own will rather than Wiseman, I get the feeling that Demand has not been brought up that he cannot have everything. there is a chance he simply doesn't understand that attempting to rape Usagi was morally corrupt. I think this is a case for many of the villains who have been raised in hatred and lack of love

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