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 [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?

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PostSubject: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 9:45 am

Before I start out please note that these are thoughts based purely on the anime. I haven't gotten to the point where Saturn is even mentioned in the manga yet, and I haven't seen the musicals.

I'm sure some might be scratching their heads at this question. After all, the finale to S made it clear that Sailor Saturn wasn't the Messiah of Silence or the evil threat everyone spent so much time worrying so much about, Mistress 9 was. And in the end Sailor Saturn has no intention of destroying the world, but rather saves it by destroying Pharaoh 90 before falling into slumber again, leaving only the reborn Hotaru behind who would awaken as Super Sailor Saturn much later.

But... in spite of this, was Sailor Saturn really good?

Here are my thoughts about it. First of all, I'd like to bring up the times when Hotaru would suddenly release powerful attacks of dark energy, complete with the glowy eyes and everything. These moments were undoubtedly Mistress 9 gaining control of Hotaru for brief moments. None of the Senshi sensed the presence of another Sailor Senshi, just an evil power. But then, we had this scene:



The mark on her forehead is clear enough, as well as everyone's reactions to it. This time it isn't Mistress 9 who's in control of poor Hotaru, but rather the sleeping spirit of Sailor Saturn, momentarily rising from her slumber. But the look on Hotaru's face carries even more madness than most of the time Mistress 9 took over. It's downright... dare I say, evil?

Carrying on, the further we got into the season, the clearer Rei's and the outer senshi's visions of the coming destruction become. And one of the things that they began to see is that the Messiah of Silence looks very similar to a certain friend of Chibiusa, and more importantly, is holding something in her hands. The Silence Glaive.



But now hold on a second... the Messiah of Silence was Mistress 9, she did not at any point possess the weapon of Sailor Saturn. In fact, I think it's safe to assume she wasn't even aware of the fact that the body she was residing in also possessed another soul. (Which certainly turned out to be terrible luck for her, seeing how she was literally ripped to shreds the moment Sailor Saturn fully awakened.) So why are they seeing this? Their visions aren't warning them about Mistress 9 or even Pharaoh 90, they're warning them about Sailor Saturn. Might this be due to some terrible experiences in their previous lives? Something that makes their minds react to the presence of the spirit of Sailor Saturn as something much more threatening than any of the Death Busters combined?

When Michiru brings up seeing the Silence Glaive in her visions Haruka and Setsuna proceed to freak out. They, unlike the inner senshi, are well aware of who Sailor Saturn is, and that she shows up when it's time to put the world to an end. One might argue that the reason why this caused them to become so determined to kill Hotaru before Saturn awakens is simply because they didn't want to give Saturn the chance to end the world, but here's the thing... as I mentioned earlier, once Saturn did awaken she had absolutely no intention of ending the world. She didn't even mention it. If this is the normal behavior of Sailor Saturn, then why this strong fear of her? She seemed like a rather sweet and understanding person, didn't she? The world was being destroyed, she could have proclaimed "Game Over" for everyone on the spot, but instead she helped stop it rather than finishing the job.

Before I go to why I personally think this contractive behavior to what Rei and the outers were so instinctively afraid of exists, I must bring up the behavior our favorite puzzle of a character, Sailor Pluto. Now, we all know that dear Setsuna works in mysterious ways, and S is no exception to this. She first shows up in order to help Michiru and Haruka find the true Messiah, even though by the end of the season it was clear she knew all along who the Messiah really was. Why she didn't just upright tell anyone these or any other important things is anyone's guess, maybe some events just need to carry out in some kind of natural order. Who knows, but that's not what's important here. What I want to focus on is her behavior towards Sailor Saturn. As I mentioned earlier, Setsuna freaks out when Michiru mentions seeing the Silence Glaive. Why? She told the inners that the reason she came from the future was to tell them about the Holy Grail, that they needed to make sure it didn't fall into the hands of the Death Busters in order to avoid the future from changing, and to lead Haruka and Michiru along the way of discovering the Messiah. But the presence of Saturn is shocking to her.



Was Saturn's rebirth in Hotaru something that didn't happen in the original timeline of the world's events? Did Saturn not exist in the future that Setsuna comes from? Whatever the reason, she makes her stance on the matter perfectly clear.



So, even the wise Sailor Pluto is calling for the killing of Sailor Saturn, and so I think it's safe to assume that this isn't just about the destructive powers that Saturn possesses, but more so her willingness, or perhaps even desire, to use it. So in short, it is my belief that Saturn isn't just bound to the duty of carrying out destruction, but that she in fact enjoys doing it. To start rounding things up, what is really my take on all this? If Saturn is truly an evil Sailor Senshi, why did she choose to save the world rather than destroy it?

Because she possessed the body and heart of a very kind and loving young girl.



My headcanon is this: every spirit of every Sailor Senshi is immortal, this we know. They'll always keep on being reborn. What I believe varies however is the personality of their current body. I believe some traits that exists within their spirits will always remain the same, like Ami's love for learning and Makoto's protectiveness, but aside from things like that I believe the personality of each Sailor Senshi change with every reincarnation, based on the personality that their current form gained from things such as life events and traits from their parents. Sailor Saturn was reborn on earth, her spirit sleeping inside Hotaru Tomoe, one of the sweetest and most innocent girls you can imagine. Once Saturn fully awakened, her spirit synched with Hotaru, taking on Hotaru's personality. Saturn on her own is an evil spirit, and the forms she's taken in previous lives are likely to also have been, but combined with Hotaru, she isn't someone who wishes to see the world she grew up in be destroyed. I'm aware that this of course directly contradicts when Saturn tells Sailor Moon "I am no longer Hotaru". I don't believe what she said to be true for one second. Had there not been a trace of Hotaru left in Saturn she wouldn't have gone to return Chibiusa's Heart Crystal to her. So in the end the world was saved, not thanks to Sailor Saturn, but thanks to Hotaru Tomoe who had grown to love it, which overpowered Saturn's desire for destruction.

... Whew, this turned out much longer than I had expected. Thoughts? Comments? Share them! I'd love to hear what you guys think of this.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 10:03 am

Iiiiinteresting thread here, Louchan.

My thoughts are: perhaps Saturn isn't good or evil. She just is. She's the end all. Kind of like how they were saying the Holy Grail can either save the world or destroy it, it just depends on who's hands it's in. But instead, I don't think Saturn so much as takes sides, she just does her job as she sees it. If she sees that nothing can be done for the world to save it, she'll just put it out of its misery.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hotaru's personality does play a hand in Saturn's personality, though. But maybe too, Hotaru is Saturn, no matter what life? Because you notice, she died in S but was reborn and was Hotaru all over again. The difference was, she grew up with the Outers, not Tomoe. So maybe Hotaru's personality keeps her more on the good side (like Saturn is neutral).

Next, the fear that the Outers have of Saturn I feel is a natural one. Especially if Haruka and Michiru never actually met Saturn before, only heard stories. Would you not fear some girl that could end the world with the drop of her glaive? Yes, yes you would. As for Pluto...I wanna say she never personally met Saturn either (Pluto's duty, you know) and knew stories of things that happened with Saturn. Like yes, perhaps she's seen Saturn end a world in her timeline, but she didn't know the circumstances behind what was going on, just that Saturn did it, you know? And I mean, once the Outers meet Saturn and realize she's not this evil entity, they take her in. They embrace her. They raise her. They no longer fear her. So basically I feel like they just feared the unknown. I feel like that would play a part in what visions looked like, too. For both Rei and Michiru. Rei especially because she didn't even know a Sailor Saturn existed.

And..lol those faces. I never really gave much thought to Hotaru's faces when she unleashed attacks like that by unknowingly tapping into Saturn's power. I always just thought it was an influx in power so that's what brought on those faces. Nothing more. *shrug* XD I mean you notice those "evil faces" go away once she realizes she's Sailor Saturn. When she knew, she could control the power she was tapping into where before, she wasn't really controlling it.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 10:21 am

I think that as the Soldier of Death, Saturn was probably evil but Chibi-usa broke through the evil through the power of her friendship with Hotaru. Saturn may have been a different person from Hotaru but she may still have possessed memories of the kindness Usagi and the Inners showed her which made her appear more sympathetic to the Inners. At the same time, as the Soldier of Death, Saturn probably still thought she was bound by her duty to destroy the Earth if it meant saving the rest of the universe from Pharaoh 90. We see this same devotion to her duty in Stars where Hotaru threatens to destroy the entire Earth if it means stopping Nehelenia. But Usagi was able to stop Hotaru through the power of her pure heart crystal and her awakening as the Messiah and averted the destruction of the Earth.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 10:32 am

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, both of you!

@Lady Tuxedo, I didn't think much about Hotaru still being very much the same even after being reborn and raised by the outers, that's a very good point. My first thought in response was "but isn't she a bit less withdrawn and quiet now?" but... it's really hard to tell, we don't really get to see much of Hotaru in Stars, and when she interacts with people it's all just the Sailor Senshi who she is close and comfortable with. So I don't really have any good counter argument to this.

But if the outers had never actually met Saturn, where does this knowledge about her come from? They know what her duty is, they know how she does it, who told them this? For me it just makes most sense if they do have some memory of Saturn, perhaps not from their previous life, perhaps not from their life before that one, but from some distant past where they met her and witnessed the destruction she brings.

And yes, those faces do go away after Saturn is fully awakened, but I think this is because she synched with Hotaru. I think that before that point she would take over completely during short amounts of time, and that would then result in Hotaru making those expressions that are completely unlike her.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 10:35 am

I feel as though Saturn was nowhere near evil and never was. Death is something that has always been seen as evil, but has always been neutral, just as Saturn is. At least in the manga, it is said that Saturn only appears basically when necessary. The only reason I believe she looked as evil like that was strictly because of Mistress 9. When Mistress 9 does appear, since the beginning of her resurrection, she was completely manipulative of everyone around her and Hotaru as a whole. To me, it seems she manipulated Hotaru's own destiny as Sailor Saturn to cover up her own trail to be hidden. Tapping into Saturn's power and her symbol, it's a great way to be completely unnoticed and doing what she needs to right in everybody's face.


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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 10:38 am

She's not just the soldier of death though. She's the soldier of death and rebirth. That's why I feel like she's neither good nor evil. She is with Usagi and her senshi probably largely due to Hotaru's personality. I really don't think she's evil. I think she's more neutral. Just does her job.

When Saturn took over at the end of S, basically saying she's no longer Hotaru, she's Saturn, blah blah blah, she didn't even hint at destroying the world or anything like that. She was just going to take out Pharaoh 90. If we want to say that Saturn is someone separate from Hotaru, you could probably say then Saturn didn't even know who Usagi was. She could clearly see Sailor Moon, but not necessarily know who Usagi was. So, using Usagi as like a reason as to why Saturn is on the side of good kind of doesn't work unless by that point she has merged with Hotaru. I feel like Saturn was slumbering all that time until Mistress 9 fully took over Hotaru and therefore Saturn wouldn't be aware of Usagi or Chibiusa. When Hotaru used random Saturn powers too attack, those were just 'tap in's, not Saturn actually being aware of what was going on.

If Saturn is merged with Hotaru by that full awakening point in S, then I want to say Saturn is on the side of good because of Hotaru, not necessarily because of Usagi and Chibiusa. Hotaru was a kind girl before she met Usagi and Chibiusa. She wasn't this horrible mean girl or anything. Chibiusa and Usagi just provided Hotaru with something she lacked; friendship and love. Hotaru lacked friends not because she was mean but because she was different. She had those healing powers and she was very frail. So while yes, Usagi and Chibiusa provided love and friendship to Hotaru (and it was needed), it wasn't like that changed Hotaru. What needed changing? Hotaru was never evil or bad. She was just never given a chance up until then.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 11:07 am

@Lust wrote:
I feel as though Saturn was nowhere near evil and never was. Death is something that has always been seen as evil, but has always been neutral, just as Saturn is. At least in the manga, it is said that Saturn only appears basically when necessary. The only reason I believe she looked as evil like that was strictly because of Mistress 9. When Mistress 9 does appear, since the beginning of her resurrection, she was completely manipulative of everyone around her and Hotaru as a whole. To me, it seems she manipulated Hotaru's own destiny as Sailor Saturn to cover up her own trail to be hidden. Tapping into Saturn's power and her symbol, it's a great way to be completely unnoticed and doing what she needs to right in everybody's face.


I really like this idea, actually. It sounds very plausible.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 12:14 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:


When Saturn took over at the end of S, basically saying she's no longer Hotaru, she's Saturn, blah blah blah, she didn't even hint at destroying the world or anything like that. She was just going to take out Pharaoh 90. If we want to say that Saturn is someone separate from Hotaru, you could probably say then Saturn didn't even know who Usagi was. She could clearly see Sailor Moon, but not necessarily know who Usagi was. So, using Usagi as like a reason as to why Saturn is on the side of good kind of doesn't work unless by that point she has merged with Hotaru. I feel like Saturn was slumbering all that time until Mistress 9 fully took over Hotaru and therefore Saturn wouldn't be aware of Usagi or Chibiusa. When Hotaru used random Saturn powers too attack, those were just 'tap in's, not Saturn actually being aware of what was going on.

If Saturn is merged with Hotaru by that full awakening point in S, then I want to say Saturn is on the side of good because of Hotaru, not necessarily because of Usagi and Chibiusa. Hotaru was a kind girl before she met Usagi and Chibiusa. She wasn't this horrible mean girl or anything. Chibiusa and Usagi just provided Hotaru with something she lacked; friendship and love. Hotaru lacked friends not because she was mean but because she was different. She had those healing powers and she was very frail. So while yes, Usagi and Chibiusa provided love and friendship to Hotaru (and it was needed), it wasn't like that changed Hotaru. What needed changing? Hotaru was never evil or bad. She was just never given a chance up until then.
I see Saturn as being like Hotaru's version of Black Lady. Black Lady still possessed memories of when she was Chibi-usa though they were distorted by Wiseman, so Saturn could still posses memories of when she used to be Hotaru even if she's no longer that version of Hotaru anymore. We've seen instances in the anime before where Usagi was able to break through someone they thought was completely lost to evil and no longer remembered them but they were able to bring them back out of the darkness like the aforementioned Black Lady and Dark Endymion. So I don't see it as outside the realm of possibility that Usagi could do the same for Saturn. And I thought Saturn was going to destroy the world and that was why Haruka got mad at Usagi and demanded to know if this was what she wanted when Saturn went off to fight Pharaoh 90? And Hotaru may have always been a kind girl but you could also see Hotaru as being more of a shell for Saturn and Saturn would be Hotaru's true identity rather than Hotaru being Saturn's true identity which could also explain why her personality seems different in Stars than it is in S.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 1:53 pm

Again though, Saturn made no statement that she was gonna destroy the world. Haruka and Michiru and Setsuna didn't know Saturn or circumstances, they just knew stories. Basically, they assumed. And you know what they say about assuming.

Sorry but I just don't see Saturn as evil. I see her as neutral and only acting when necessary. I like Lust's idea too on Saturn. Death doesn't = evil. Going on the statement that Saturn is evil because she is the soldier of death is not a very strong argument because she is also the soldier of rebirth.

I don't think you can convince me that she is evil. Not even the "evil faces". Lust even proposed a great idea for why that was happening too. Plus, I don't think a senshi can really be evil unless possessed by Chaos, which I'm pretty sure Saturn is not. I could be wrong on the evil senshi part, but I haven't heard of a story of a senshi being bad from the beginning. They just became possessed by Chaos and became bad. They were initally good, just something happened. And again, I'm pretty sure Saturn doesn't have Chaos like that inside of her. Another reason why I think she is neutral.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 2:03 pm

The argument you're using for her being evil doesn't exactly make sense to me since it seems to be colliding against itself of what her "true form" is. Sailor Saturn has the ability to destroy planets and has been said that it happens when she appears. With S and Stars, she appears during great catastrophes. They have never mentioned Saturn destroying planets for a random reason, especially for the fact that after she does it means the death of herself. Destroying the planet and bringing out the power of death was mentioned in Stars as a last minute resort. The Sailor Senshi have killed villains in the past, but with Saturn it's just a one hit KO. Within life, there is death and life again. It's the circle of life because it is a necessity in the world. Saturn has the ability of Destruction and Rebirth, which is in the grand scheme of the life cycle.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 3:11 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Again though, Saturn made no statement that she was gonna destroy the world. Haruka and Michiru and Setsuna didn't know Saturn or circumstances, they just knew stories. Basically, they assumed. And you know what they say about assuming.

Saturn didn't explicitly state she would destroy the world but she said the reason she is called the Warrior of Ruin is because she was given the power to destroy a planet but at the expense of her own life and Usagi then tries to stop her from using her power. They also show Saturn calling forth the Silence Glaive, which would destroy the world if she used it. So while Saturn may not directly state what she's going to do, it is strongly implied and inferred by Usagi's and the Outers' reactions that Saturn was going to do something that would risk her own life, i.e. destroy the world which would be the only thing powerful enough to stop Pharaoh 90.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    3rd October 2012, 3:25 pm

I'm pretty sure Usagi tried to stop Saturn was because she didn't want Hotaru/Saturn to die. Usagi is smart enough to connect the dots. She wasn't like "oh if Saturn goes in there she's going to destroy the world". No. She was like "If Saturn goes in there and kills Pharaoh 90, she's going to die as well. There must be another way!" o.o because Saturn was going *inside* Pharaoh 90. If say she made it explode from the inside and she's in there, that obviously means she's going to die as well.

Saturn also always carries around her glaive. It's like her trademark. Just like Pluto always carries around her garnet rod.

But again, they (Usagi and the senshi, outers included) realize, they really do, I promise you, that Saturn isn't the automatic death card if she's around. I mean obviously she is, but it's if she chooses. Meaning, it's up to her. She can control that power. She chooses whether or not to use it. It's not like if she shows up it's like "oh crap, Saturn stepped through the door. Game over."

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    5th October 2012, 4:56 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
But again, they (Usagi and the senshi, outers included) realize, they really do, I promise you, that Saturn isn't the automatic death card if she's around. I mean obviously she is, but it's if she chooses. Meaning, it's up to her. She can control that power. She chooses whether or not to use it. It's not like if she shows up it's like "oh crap, Saturn stepped through the door. Game over."

Although to be fair, it kind of makes it seem that way in the beginning, with how the Outers are wanting to kill Hotaru and saying that Saturn should not be summoned. I always had this feeling while reading and watching that the Outers meant that if Saturn appeared, then BOOM the world is gone.

But then it never made sense to me in the end where Saturn is around like "Hai guys, I'm the senshi of death and rebirth, no big deal <3" I always just took it as continuity problems xD

But part of me wonders if the Outers were so against having Saturn appear because they didn't know what kind of person she was in this incarnation? Because she would have the same super powers no matter her personality, and maybe they didn't want to take the chance that the person Saturn turned out to be would be the type of person who would use that power for evil.

But! I think a lot of the reason the Outers decided to take in Hotaru to raise her was because they wanted to make sure she grew up in the best environment so that she would grow up to be the type of person who would use Saturn's powers for good again. Instead of leaving her in the hands of someone else who might end up corrupting her. (Not to mention they might have felt a little guilty about the whole wanting-to-kill-her thing.. xD)

These thoughts feel disjointed. I'm sorry! xD

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    18th November 2012, 9:41 am

I like the thinking of Lust, Lady Tuxedo and Verdandi because it makes sense. though in the manga, the Outers -have- seen what Saturn can do. Remember? They said that during the Silver Millennium, their tailsmans glowed and teleported them to where Saturn was still dormant (asleep) and that when they were all together, it basically summoned her and thus the end of the Silver Millennium because at that point Metallia was technically winning.


So, the Outers could be going off their memory of what happened then and applying it to their present as to why Saturn (and by extension, Hotaru ) had to be killed before their world ends again. It's completely reasonable for them to think of it like that.

But seeing as the spirit of Saturn isn't actually malicious. I mean, she sacrificed herself to take out Pharaoh 90 in both versions. So I don't think she's evil. She's more neutral than anything.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    18th November 2012, 2:06 pm

Saturn is not evil, she is misunderstand because people associate her with bad luck and grief (The Outer Soldiers were apparently traumatized at her destruction of the Moon Kingdom). The true evil is Mistress 9, the Messiah of Silence who the Outer Soldiers instead thought was Sailor Saturn. The point is "there cannot be life, if there is not death" or "the only path to rebirth is through destruction". There can no be no revival or resurrection by anyone, even Sailor moon, if destruction has not occurred. Saturn fills this role, the concepts of Death merely have bad connotations for most people.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    26th November 2012, 3:49 pm

Sailor Saturn is not an eviil person. It is likely that Sailor Saturn may want to contimue to be asleep unitl she is needed. In the manga, Saturn is in astral form had to help the five-year-old Hotaru to remember her so she can awaken. Saturn turns out to be the leader of the Outer Senshi.

Saturn's powers of Death, Destruction, amd Rebirth makes her the most fear of the Sailor Scouts. Saturn could have destroy Queen Metaria/Metallica. Queen Beryl was well aware of Saturn's powers. Queen Beryl had to attack the Moon Kingdom while Sailor Saturn was asleep. If Saturn had awaken during the begiinning of Beryl's attack on the Moon Kingdom, Saturn and Queen Serendity would have able to defeat Queen Beryl, Queen Metaria/Metallica and their forces by combining their powers.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    27th November 2012, 12:44 pm

From what it seems, Sailor Saturn is a completely neutral entity. Sort of like a court judge. She must make a judgement sometimes, but doesn't allow personal bias to affect it.

I've not read the manga yet though, only watched up to Sailor Moon SuperS so yeah, I may be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    10th November 2013, 3:23 pm

Sailor Saturn is neutral. I know you are talking just about the anime, but the manga makes it so much more clear about who Sailor Saturn is. In the anime Sailor Saturn tells Sailor Moon how everyone feared her because of her power to destroy worlds, but once she used her power she would be destroyed herself. Sailor Saturn also tells Sailor Moon, that Sailor Moon via her silver crystal are meant to bring rebirth. While Sailor Saturn does not destroy the world in the anime (here's why the manga makes more sense) she destroys the world in the manga. Sailor Saturn attacked Pharoh 90 with Death Reborn Revolution lifting him up into the air. Then, in order to completely destroy him, she drops her glaive. She has no choice but to drop the glaive and end the world because when Pharoh 90 emerged he actually became one with the Earth. She had to destroy the Earth as well as Pharoh 90 in order to eliminate the death busters permanently. Further more in the manga Sailor Moon awakens as Neo-Queen Serenity and she revives the destroyed Earth. Interestingly though, Sailor Saturn is described by Pharoh 90 as the "light that will lead to destruction". He also describes her as having a "negative aura." It is also mentioned in the manga that Sailor Saturn ended the remnants of the Silver Millenium (probably why the outer senshi despised Sailor Saturn, she killed them). The outer senshi were at the outer reaches of the solar system when Queen Metallica/Beryl attacked and they could not leave their posts to help. After everything was destroyed, the three outer senshi came to the remnants of the silver millenium on the moon and when their talismans came together Sailor Saturn awakened (again, in the manga, it makes more sense). Sailor Saturn is only awakened when the talismans come together. Once Sailor Saturn awakened in the remnants of the silver millenium, she dropped the glaive to 'finish' everything and prepare it for rebirth. This act killed herself as well as the outer senshi.
Sorry for any spoilers and for writing so much, but as much as I loved the anime... the manga makes so much more sense. In conclusion Sailor Saturn is like the clean-up crew. She prepares the way for Sailor Moon to bring new life. As Sailor Moon is life, Sailor Saturn is death. She is very, VERY dark, no doubt- but just because something/someone is dark does not mean it/she is evil. Two halves of a whole I suppose.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    10th November 2013, 4:23 pm

The outers, at least in manga, saw in their previous life in 1st hand what Saturn's powers could do:

As they watched from a far (I have the impression they were on rocks near their planets or something - In manga, Haruka says it was a really lonely place, dark, far from everything and each other with no one else around), as the Moon Kingdom fall, without being able to leave their posts to help, somehow their talismans reacted, summoning Saturn. 
Sailor Saturn then downs her glaive destroying the rest of the Silver Millennium.
What let's say, didn't have much left to begin with. Metalia/Berlyl destroyed and killed almost everything, like buildings, the Endymion, the senshi - Venus stabs Berlyl with Holy Blade, but it was too late and the batle was lost, blablabla, anyway Venus dies too and so does the princess. Queen Serenity then uses all her power with the Silver Crystal to seal the Dark Kingdom away and dies after sending the 2 cats, the court, senshi, princess and prince to re-incarnate on Earth. Everybody was dead, the evil was sealed. So, they are over reacting in Saturn's whole at that. The destruction was made by the Dark Kingdom and Queen Serenity! 
Anyway, where I was? Yes, saturn lows her Glaive and destroys the rest of Silver Millennium. Killing Uranus and Neptune (that's how they re-incarnate on Earth, since they didn't died at the battle aganist Metalia/Beryl), Saturn also dies after using her ultimate power (and reborns as Hotaru) and it's not clear if Pluto dies too or if somehow is just locked again at Gates of Time. Let's say Pluto dies and reborns at her post in the Gates.
Saturn ultimatelly killed the last 3 warriors from Silver Millennium. So, when they come back and they seem to remember a lot about their past lives, much more than the rest, their last memory is what? Die because of Saturn! So, yes, they would be more than willing to stop Saturn at all cost!

Pluto's work is protect time stream, not mess with it. She can't tell things that she knows because she is the guardian of time, otherwise it would change everything. She wasn't even supposed to travel in time, what technically speaking is exactly what she is doing. All she can do is point the right direction, but not say everything, like who is Messiah of Light, for example.
The fact she is shocked to find out Saturn also reborned at that era...Maybe has 2 explanations:
1) Timeline changed and Saturn never originally existed - Maybe with all time travel Chibiusa and the Black Moon clan did in R, things changed.
2) When Pluto leaves the Gates she also somehow looses her all knowing powers, maybe she just retain enough info from the specific time she is, higher than average, but not all.

As for why they see the Glaive of Silence in the hands of Messiah of Silence at the dreams... Well, premonition dreams are not supposed to be clear. They give you a warn of upcoming danger but not how it'll happen.  Or exactly when. And now that things passed, and everything is reveled, that the dream was showing them, that the Messiah of Silence and Sailor Ruin, Death & Rebirth were the same person/body, isn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    12th November 2013, 12:28 pm

I agree with many of the others that Sailor Saturn is not evil, at least not inherently evil. I don't think any of the Sailor Senshi are. She's the senshi of death and rebirth (many people seem to miss that last part, though I don't think it was ever emphasized very well in the source material, so I guess the mistake is sort of understandable). Her powers are...well, raw power, raw potential. She is that transformation from one state to another.

I think what happened was that Mistress 9 was corrupting the power of Saturn. While the powers of the Sailor Crystals may not be inherently evil, they may be able to be corrupted to evil purposes via their users. Hotaru was reborn, and she has a connection to her old powers, even if she's not old enough to access them yet. Mistress 9 uses her as a host, feeding off of her like a parasite and growing. And while she's there, Mistress 9 starts to take control and twist those dormant powers, which is why you see the mark on Hotaru's head. I personally think that the image of Sailor Saturn was some lingering piece of her old memories. I just don't really like the idea of the Sailor Senshi persona being a completely separate personality.

Maybe that was the plan all along, to corrupt Saturn's power. In my headcanon, Sailor Saturn was awake in the past, but had restrictions on her so she couldn't use her "instant-death" powers fully without  the consent of the other Outers. And Saturn's magic took a heavy toll (like death) when she tried to use it to kill or resurrect a sentient life form.

But even barring the ability to directly kill any sentient life, Saturn's destructive potential is absolutely massive, and something you might want to bend to your control. So maybe they intended to do that instead of picking Hotaru for a host and then saying "Hey, this kid is Sailor Saturn! We hit the jackpot!"

It's like the DC comics character the Spectre. He's their original ghost superhero from the Golden Age, and in recent years he's been redefined as the literal Wrath of God, God's spirit of Vengeance. He has tremendous power, and he's not exactly nice, to put it mildly. But he's still a good guy technically. And he is required to be bound to a human host, someone who has died. 

During the Blackest Night crossover event, you had a group called the Black Lanterns that were bent on ending all life and existence. They used power rings to "raise up" the dead, the rings basically uses the bodies as puppets, with full access to that bodies memories, skills, and superpowers if they had them. Of course someone like the Spectre wouldn't have helped stop them, but he was beaten. How?

The Spectre's host body (a dead person) was turned into a Black Lantern. The Spectre was bound to his host. The end result was a Black Lantern Spectre, with all of the Spectre's powers, while the real mind of Spectre was trapped inside. He was corrupted via his host. That's how I see the way things went between Hotaru, Mistress 9, and Hotaru's Sailor Saturn powers.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    17th July 2015, 4:15 pm

I don't really think Saturn is inherently good or evil. In the manga, when she awakens, she has this very... resigned attitude. Like, oh, I guess it's imw for me to end the world again. Pretty indifferent if you ask me. So no, I don't think Sailor Saturn is evil at all.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    17th July 2015, 4:17 pm

Those first two images were probably the spirit of saturn being corrupted by mistress nine. I don't think sailor saturn is entirely evil, more or less associated with evil because of her role in the senshi, with the entire end-the-world thing.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    20th July 2015, 8:10 pm

Why would mistress 9 use the symbol of Saturn when that very symbol is what broke though the death busters symbol. O.o probably just a plot hole.
But I think everyone viewed her as evil since she destroyed the silver millenium. In my opinion, I really think that mistress 9 was rhe evil the senshi saw in the visions. It I made apparent to me in my mind that saturn was (before her rebirth) , very loyal to her duties. This gif always made me think of how serious saturn is to the mission entrusted to her. Eyed of kindess, not malace. She is fulfilling something entrusted to her. Not something out of evil


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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    23rd July 2015, 11:36 am

I'll be honest and say I haven't reached the point in the Manga about Saturn yet, and she's not in many Anime episodes plus I'm not done with the Anime so take my post with a grain of salt, but I should participate in these discussions more to learn, hehe.  I guess, from what I do know her powers only awaken when the outer's talisman's come together which they never were supposed to do since Pluto supposedly doesn't leave her post? ( I'm probably wrong on that!lol ) So I think Saturn being awakened and called upon for her power's is a rare feat that is only saved in cases of emergency since she supposedly ( from what I've read online ) didn't arrive to cause destruction until after the Moon Kingdom was destroyed and no hope left. Her acts of destruction aren't evil, but without death there is no rebirth and her power's do have a place in the universe. I don't think she would ever misuse her powers intentionally for her own selfishness. She doesn't seem to act out in any conniving way, like Sailor Galaxia did. I think that Saturn's power's are commonly over exaggerated to make her appear as some kind of cosmic Grim Reaper, or harbinger of death. I suppose in some ways she is, but not in the sense of evil doing or manipulative. She seems to grasp the consequences and severity of her power's and knows when is the best time to use it. Which would be when all other options are exhausted and better to take out the evil and destroy everything then let evil rule. Then Sailor Moon can restore things, and heal what needed to be cleansed. ^-^;
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] How evil is the spirit of Sailor Saturn?    23rd July 2015, 4:01 pm

This is probably paraphrasing what everyone else said, but I never thought of her as evil. All the senshi have their powers, her's just happen to be the destruction of a planet. They all have their missions, and all of the outers seem very concerned for their mission. From what I understand is that in the past she is only awakened when there is no hope left. Can you imagine what some of those enemies would put the people who live there through? Maybe I read/write too much fanfiction, but that is how I think of her at least.

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