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Jupiter Rose
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PostSubject: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:15 am

XD so this is kind of a random topic, but the idea struck me in other threads around here and I wanted to see what you guys think. So here's the question: We all know Seiya was originally a female and in the anime she turns male. Do you think she is also male on the inside when in this disguise or do you think it's just an outward appearance?

I personally like to think she's still a female on the inside. She still has female organs, she just turns outwardly male. It would be too much to change her whole anatomy around every single time she transforms or goes back to her disguise. I kind of think of it as when she transforms, it's like taking off a body costume more than anything.

A lot of people, when they ship UsaSeiya, they just say Seiya's a guy, can father and everything (ignorant people, apparently). But Seiya is a woman. Her true form is a woman. So that's what makes me ask the question of her anatomy.

Here's a video you can watch and then think about it. I'd love to know what you guys think! XD




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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:23 am

I've always thought the Starlights' disguises were similar to the disguises Minako and Usagi use when they use their henshin pens. Here we go!






Minako looks pretty much like a real boy here, don't ya think?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:25 am

Anime, Tsuki, anime. XD but I see what you're getting at with your scans ^^

Yeah, she does look like a real boy. But you'd then say that while she is outwardly a boy in those scans, she's still a girl in anatomy, no?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:29 am

Sorry Usagi does the same thing in the anime but I don't remember the episode XD lol I'll post it when I remember it XD!

And yes that's just what I say. I've always thought that the Starlights were still girls inside and they just had the looks of boys.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:31 am

I love how we seem to have similar thinking about this series.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:34 am

You are the strangest person I know. Razz

When they transform, their anatomy changes as well, which I would assume happens internally as well because that would not make sense to have male parts that are not connected properly inside them. After all, they do spend days in their male forms. Their brain work seems to be the same though.

Remember when Seiya goes over to Usagi's house and takes a shower?


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:44 am

I always believed that they were magically transformed as to being guys, both outwardly and inwardly, but it was sort of a magical anatomy change that isn't natural. Like, I don't believe that Seiya could father any children while in a male form because her real form is that of a female, so even with magical things disguising her, she wouldn't be able uh.. perform properly? xD

I'm not even sure if I am making sense at this point =P I just think that they would have male organs while in their male form and everything, but I think they would only be able to do things that they could originally do in their female forms, because in the end, they are still female, magical disguise or not.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:45 am

My personal opinion is that their anatomy change is kind of part of their disguise^^ I don't really know what I'm rambling about here since my theory seems to be so random XD *laughs*

Verdi - My theory is similar to yours at some points^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:49 am

I am allowed to be weird!

Yes it does make sense! 1) because magical girl show? magic? XD 2) so does that mean in Tsuki's provided example, Minako is inwardly a boy too?

I just feel like it would be silly to go through all that change. I'm pretty sure it's possible, for realsies, to be outwardly one gender but on the inside have parts of the other gender (though that's a disorder...XD). But I dunno. I always figured, like I said, it's like taking off a body suit disguise. Easier. Plus, she's not really a boy... >.>

When Seiya is showering at Usagi's, that's outward appearance btw. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:50 am

The starlights are, and will always be female :B Even in the anime continuity. That must pretty much be the kind of magic Usagi used to turn into a groom when she saved Mako from Nephrite's youma. Seiya is just a crossdresser and also appear to be a lesbian. (i haaaate when people say "Seiya / Usagi isn't shojo ai!")
Naoko herself said that only women could be sailor senshis. How about we take what the CREATOR OF THE SERIE said as canon? :B

*said the guy of the mario fandom who still can't believe what Miyamoto (the creator of the serie) said himself the Koopalings were no longer Bowser's children*

Knowing Minako, I'm just freaking out about what she would do if she herself had a male body for a short while @_@ Thanks god Arty is always with her when she use her compact.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 11:54 am

Tuxie and Mayo -

Exactly! The Starlights are always women and like Tuxie said I count the showering scene to the outward appearance^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 12:00 pm

@Mayonnaise wrote:
Seiya is just a crossdresser and also appear to be a lesbian.

Because she's in love with Usagi (and Kakyuu)? o.o

In the manga she's just a cross dresser. That's not the whole case, obviously, in the manga. They took that a step further.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 12:27 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
I am allowed to be weird!

Yes it does make sense! 1) because magical girl show? magic? XD 2) so does that mean in Tsuki's provided example, Minako is inwardly a boy too?

I just feel like it would be silly to go through all that change. I'm pretty sure it's possible, for realsies, to be outwardly one gender but on the inside have parts of the other gender (though that's a disorder...XD). But I dunno. I always figured, like I said, it's like taking off a body suit disguise. Easier. Plus, she's not really a boy... >.>

When Seiya is showering at Usagi's, that's outward appearance btw. Razz

I think the instance with Minako and Usagi is a little different though. They are temporarily becoming a boy, just to get through a scene. The Starlights are transforming theirselves to be males for a muuuuch longer time span. I think it's a different sort of magic for the two instances. I don't believe Minako or Usagi change inwardly, but instead have a magical crossdressing outfit that makes others believe what they see. But with the Starlights, I still think they would have had to deal with being full males for a while, especially for the length of time they were in a male form.

Plus part of me thinks its weird that they would be male for so long without the proper inner workings. I mean, how would they go to the bathroom, etc! o.o! hahaha

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 2:07 pm

Like many others have said, I think that Seiya's (and the other Starlights) transformations as males was just anesthetic. The manga was so much simpler, with the Starlights just cross-dressing instead of actually changing genders. Lord knows what they changed it, BECAUSE MAGICALLY BEING ABLE TO SWAP GENDERS IS SO MUCH SIMPLER AND LESS CONTROVERSIAL THAN CROSS-DRESSING. XD Haha, just kidding. But not really.

Seiya comes to Earth as a woman and leaves as a woman, so I've always just gone with that.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   13th October 2012, 2:21 pm

I never understood why they changed their genders. Then again anime is adaptation of manga (most of the time) so Toei had every right to do it. I guess they did it to have the seiyaxusa ship (I like that ship ^^), but they could have still had it with Seiya as a woman. So which do I like better? I don't mind both. Male Seiya works for the anime while Female Seiya works for the manga and the myu.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   14th October 2012, 5:10 pm

I mean, I would say that Seiya is always a female like Lady Tux said in the original post, but we can clearly see that before she transforms she doesn't have boobs and then she does afterwords. I would assume that the... "rest" of the anatomy is the same Wink

However, I think she just has the power to completely change her outward appearance as if it were nothing. I think it's probably the equivalent to Usagi and Mina's disguises, where she stays the same mentally the whole time. I think Seiya is completely female but has the ability to "disguise" her anatomy as male.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   14th October 2012, 6:34 pm

You guys have really took this somewhere I see! O.o I always view them as cross dressing females in the manga which is way more acceptable in Japan since both both male and female groups tend to cross dress. Also in the anime I believe their like transvestites having both parts perhaps. Seiya is a male before he transforms and then he's female and let's face it sailor moon has Michiru and Haruka and I don't think Seiya and Usagi would be any different. My debate is he would be able to have children in his male form but not in a senshi form which he cannot always be in. And honestly the Luna pen is a disguise pen making Usagi and Minako look like boys when in fact their not because it's a disguise nothing more. I don't think that works the same way as Seiya along with the rest of the lights.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 9:14 am

Haha, you actually went and made this thread yourself, huh? xD

I believe they turn fully into males, both on the inside and on the outside, organs and everything. And I believe this is the case for Minako and Usagi the times they transformed into boys too. And frankly, I think people only deny this because it freaks them out a little.
We've seen the Starlights half naked, and we've seen how their body proportions change completely when they transform. So it's clear enough their entire bone structure changes. I just can't imagine they'd still somehow have things like all the parts of the female breasts pressed in there somewhere or all the female level of hormones running through their bodies. And let's not even go to the genitals, there's just no way all that can be the same on the inside and yet function and look as a male on the outside.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 9:33 am

It doesn't freak me out. But it does bother me that certain people just consider Seiya a male, especially for UsaSeiya shipping (I know people are weird, homophobic, etc. to which I have to say, they're watching the wrong show). I mean, I can fully see Usagi with a woman because I just think she does have the potential to just *love*. Maybe not understand at first, but yeah.

Also, seeing Seiya shower and before the transformations is *outward* appearance XD just cause you see that on the outside may not necessarily be what's on the inside. It is a magical girl show, after all. And I just don't think they become true males. Any of them (Starlights, Minako, Usagi, etc). I think they're more psedomales; it's just an outward appearance change. So yeah, flat chest, no-no parts, etc., but they don't have the inner function of males. For example, while in male form, they cannot father.

I really feel like it would be too much work! XD to change them internally too. But this has given interesting ideas. You all make interesting points, too ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 11:15 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
It doesn't freak me out. But it does bother me that certain people just consider Seiya a male, especially for UsaSeiya shipping (I know people are weird, homophobic, etc. to which I have to say, they're watching the wrong show). I mean, I can fully see Usagi with a woman because I just think she does have the potential to just *love*. Maybe not understand at first, but yeah.

Also, seeing Seiya shower and before the transformations is *outward* appearance XD just cause you see that on the outside may not necessarily be what's on the inside. It is a magical girl show, after all. And I just don't think they become true males. Any of them (Starlights, Minako, Usagi, etc). I think they're more psedomales; it's just an outward appearance change. So yeah, flat chest, no-no parts, etc., but they don't have the inner function of males. For example, while in male form, they cannot father.

I really feel like it would be too much work! XD to change them internally too. But this has given interesting ideas. You all make interesting points, too ^^
Yeah, I agree, I think it's a bit of a shame that so many people identify Seiya as a man, because she truly is a woman despite hiding behind a male body in the anime. I don't know how much of it is due to homophobia though, I think a lot of people do it because they became so used to Seiya being seen as and referred to as a man most of the time in the anime, and honestly? I think that's exactly what the animation team was aiming for, for people to see Seiya as a man and not a woman. A homphobic decision? Highly likely. A bad decision? I think so. But this is all a bit of a different topic.

Yes, what we see of Seiya is the outward appearance, but keep in mind nothing on the outside can change without changes being done to the inside too. I already mentioned hormones and bone structure, so I really just feel it's natural to assume everything else changed along with those things. You say you believe Seiya has the "no-no parts" but that would be the biggest proof of all that changes happen on the inside. I'm not gonna post picture comparing the insides of the male and female reproductive systems, along with the bladder and everything else, but... they are very different. You can't just add a penis onto a body that's only male looking on the outside but has all the female organs on the inside and expect it to get anything done. The Starlight's bathroom visits would be extremely awkward if that was the case. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 11:22 am

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but even their voices change slightly with their transformation.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 11:34 am

@Louchan wrote:

Yeah, I agree, I think it's a bit of a shame that so many people identify Seiya as a man, because she truly is a woman despite hiding behind a male body in the anime. I don't know how much of it is due to homophobia though, I think a lot of people do it because they became so used to Seiya being seen as and referred to as a man most of the time in the anime, and honestly? I think that's exactly what the animation team was aiming for, for people to see Seiya as a man and not a woman. A homphobic decision? Highly likely. A bad decision? I think so. But this is all a bit of a different topic.

I like you XD and that's a good point, too!

@Louchan wrote:
Yes, what we see of Seiya is the outward appearance, but keep in mind nothing on the outside can change without changes being done to the inside too. I already mentioned hormones and bone structure, so I really just feel it's natural to assume everything else changed along with those things. You say you believe Seiya has the "no-no parts" but that would be the biggest proof of all that changes happen on the inside. I'm not gonna post picture comparing the insides of the male and female reproductive systems, along with the bladder and everything else, but... they are very different. You can't just add a penis onto a body that's only male looking on the outside but has all the female organs on the inside and expect it to get anything done. The Starlight's bathroom visits would be extremely awkward if that was the case. Razz

Ah but the question is, do they even go to the bathroom? lmao

Again, you make a good point. I see where you are coming from and it makes sense indeed Very Happy

@Juu~ wrote:
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but even their voices change slightly with their transformation.

^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 12:24 pm

I think that even in the anime version though, they make it clear that the Starlights have the same gender whether they have a male sex or female sex. After the Inners find out that the Three Lights are the Starlights, Ami says "Taiki is still Taiki" and Ami sees the Starlights and Three Lights as one and the same. As for the question as to whether or not Seiya could reproduce in her human form, even if she couldn't, Usagi could still give birth to Chibi-usa if Mamoru acted as a surrogate father and donated his sperm to her.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 12:43 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
I think that even in the anime version though, they make it clear that the Starlights have the same gender whether they have a male sex or female sex. After the Inners find out that the Three Lights are the Starlights, Ami says "Taiki is still Taiki" and Ami sees the Starlights and Three Lights as one and the same. As for the question as to whether or not Seiya could reproduce in her human form, even if she couldn't, Usagi could still give birth to Chibi-usa if Mamoru acted as a surrogate father and donated his sperm to her.

This may sound bad, but that kind of doesn't make sense. They're not "both genders" or anything, it's either or. When Ami says "Taiki is still Taiki" she means Taiki is still the same person. You can have the same brain, thoughts, etc. (though I feel like, if it is the case they do indeed turn male inside too, and it does seem to be the case, that enhances certain ways of thinking) but you're pretty much one or the other; male or female. So yes, you're still the same person, but I'm talking the biological/physical aspects of them, not their mentalities or how people are the same people even if they change genders. Also, they're not queer or genderbenders or lesbians or anything else complex like that. Don't give me the whole Seiya/Kakyuu or Seiya/Usagi argument; Seiya could be bi, straight with exceptions, pan, or yes a lesbian, but it's not stated.

Obviously though that The Three Lights and the Starlights are one in the same; they're the same people o_o they just take on different genders. But again, not talking about mentality, I'm talking biology.

So basically, you lost me here. This doesn't quite make sense: "I think that even in the anime version though, they make it clear that the Starlights have the same gender whether they have a male sex or female sex."

This doesn't make sense to me. In the anime, they change into male form (which brought on this topic for discussion, just for funsies) and then revert back to female form when they turn into senshi. It's not like the manga where they only crossdress. They are all collectively the same gender at the same time, so...

ALSO -- I'd like to point out, if Usagi were to be with Seiya instead, I'd highly doubt Mamoru would donate. Like that's hilarious. WHY would you donate to the woman you lost to another woman? Especially if you know you're just going to get attached to the child? Two, WHY would you even WANT them to? That's downright creepy and weird. If I were Seiya I wouldn't be okay with it and if I were Usagi I wouldn't be okay with it. But most of all if I were Seiya I would not be okay with it. It's just like that "special clip" at the end of South of Nowhere where it showed Spashley having a baby, with sperm donated by their ex (yes that they both dated at one point in time). That's downright WEIRD. So, no. This would not happen. That would make things too complicated. Sailor Moon is not a soap.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 2:24 pm

Sorry I didn't make this clear. When I speak of them as different things, what I mean is I see gender and sex as two different things. Your sex would be the biological appearance you have and your gender is a human-made construct society labels you as. In this regard, the Starlights have two different sexes but the Inners see them as having one gender. I don't think it would be that strange for Mamoru to act as a sperm donor for Usagi. There are lots of couples in real life who aren't able to bear children so they ask an outside party to act as a sperm donor for them and it works fine for them without turning into a soap. I would think that even if Usagi and Mamoru went separate ways, they would still love Chibi-usa enough to want to see her brought into the world that they would put aside any romantic conflicts to see Chibi-usa again. I'd also like to think that by the 30th century, society would have progressed to a point where polyamory has become more socially acceptable and the strict kind of monogamy we're debating here would be seen as antiquated.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 3:25 pm

Well all that aside, again, I'm talking strictly anatomy. Nothing more.

You miss the part that makes it a soap; Mamoru *dated* Usagi. If they were to ever part ways, that is *weird* for him to be a doner. Anyone else can, but Mamoru shouldn't. As much as I love Chibiusa, she causes some conflict. But that's beside the point.

Also, interesting of you to note. I don't think polygamy would return in the 30th century. That's rather medieval. I really don't think people should have more than one spouse anyway, especially the king and queen. That's how problems get started. Also, that's rather selfish to want more than one. Why do you need more than one person? Is the one not good enough for you? Don't say "well what if one can't bear children?" Not an excuse. If you can't stand by them during that because you're selfish, shame on you. The lesson on what love *is* needs to be relearned.

If you're for polygamy, good for you, but that isn't going to come back. People have moved passed that. o_o

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 3:47 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
Sorry I didn't make this clear. When I speak of them as different things, what I mean is I see gender and sex as two different things. Your sex would be the biological appearance you have and your gender is a human-made construct society labels you as. In this regard, the Starlights have two different sexes but the Inners see them as having one gender. I don't think it would be that strange for Mamoru to act as a sperm donor for Usagi. There are lots of couples in real life who aren't able to bear children so they ask an outside party to act as a sperm donor for them and it works fine for them without turning into a soap. I would think that even if Usagi and Mamoru went separate ways, they would still love Chibi-usa enough to want to see her brought into the world that they would put aside any romantic conflicts to see Chibi-usa again. I'd also like to think that by the 30th century, society would have progressed to a point where polyamory has become more socially acceptable and the strict kind of monogamy we're debating here would be seen as antiquated.

This is actually not what this topic is about at all. Please try to keep on the same topic. We are just, for funsies, discussing, the biological aspects of their apparent "sex" change in the anime.

Me, personally, I feel like they stay female all the time, but because of MAGICS they can disguise their boobs and stuff. Even when they look flat chested, I think they still have girl parts in tact. considering there is LOTS OF MAGIC and we can't explain SAILOR MOON MAGIC with real world science, we can't really say for sure if their inner biological workings change for sure. But its an interesting thought.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 3:54 pm

Small Lady wrote:
Me, personally, I feel like they stay female all the time, but because of MAGICS they can disguise their boobs and stuff. Even when they look flat chested, I think they still have girl parts in tact. considering there is LOTS OF MAGIC and we can't explain SAILOR MOON MAGIC with real world science, we can't really say for sure if their inner biological workings change for sure. But its an interesting thought.

Yessss thank you Brit! You get me

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 3:57 pm

Also like...i could imagine it'd be pretty painful to have to go through feeling your inner biological workings change each time you transform...so I'm pretty sure its safe to say we can use the excuse of MAGICS.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Seiya -- Male or Female?   16th October 2012, 6:12 pm

Lets not forget that they are probably technically not humans, coming from Kinmoku and all. Maybe their science is more advanced so they can just pop off their boobs and store them for later.

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