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 Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?

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PostSubject: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 12:38 pm

The anime version of Chibi-usa is often bashed by Sailor Moon fans for being the weakest of the Sailor Soldiers, mainly because the anime always has her Pink Sugar Heart Attack fail, but is she really as weak as her critics say? When Chibi-usa turns into Black Lady in R, she nearly succeeds in beating the Sailor Soldiers in every fight they're involved with and Chibi-usa only loses to the Inners because of the Power of Love trope. But in terms of magical powers, Chibi-usa clearly out-classes the Sailor Soldiers' magic in these episodes. When Usagi tries to use her Silver Crystal to kill Wiseman, it's not powerful enough and she almost gets defeated and it's only thanks to Chibi-usa and her Silver Crystal that they can kill Wiseman. In Supers, Usagi is unable to use the powers of the Golden Crystal to kill Nehelenia and even when she combines her powers with that of the Inners, they're still unable to defeat her and Chibi-usa alone is the only one who can use the Golden Crystal's powers to defeat Nehelina. So when you think about it, one could argue Chibi-usa is more powerful than the Sailor Soldiers.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 12:47 pm

And let's not forget that in the manga, Pink Sugar Heart Attack kicked some asses. (Chibiusa used it to force Tellu to her daimon form, and she defeated two youmas using it in the second Picture Diary story).

I think that the Pink Moon Crystal (which, please remember, is a Silver Crystal as well.) is just an immature Sailor Crystal and will eventually mature into another Silver Moon Crystal once Neo Queen Serenity decide to step down / dies / become Sailor Cosmos. The same planet / star / moon can't have two star seeds. So the Pink Crystal might not be taking its power from the moon yet, but will eventually become a "real", "mature" star seed once her mother stop using the power of her own Silver Crystal. Chibiusa's not "the weakest" (leave that to Tin Nyanko!) but I think that in both anime and manga, she just is "slightly weaker" because her star seed can't use its full potential.

Hope that made sense \o/

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 1:17 pm

Yeah, in general, I think there is something to be said for her age/maturity level. She's less experienced than the other sailor senshi. But, in the end, she'll likely gain more experience, because she became a sailor senshi at such a young age.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 1:25 pm

Also you got to remember Chibusa's failed attacks in S was just for comic relief. She was a solider in training so toei used that plot device to make the viewers laugh.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 2:03 pm

Sailor Venus wrote:
Yeah, in general, I think there is something to be said for her age/maturity level. She's less experienced than the other sailor senshi. But, in the end, she'll likely gain more experience, because she became a sailor senshi at such a young age.
Exactly. I'm sure that at Usagi's age, Chibiusa will be a better sailor senshi than Sailor Moon.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 2:04 pm

Yeah let's think about this for a moment here. o_o Let's think about all of this here.

Chibiusa is a little girl. Do you really think she's going to be as powerful as almost fully grown women? No. She's not even Sailor Moon yet; she's still Chibi Moon. She hasn't unlocked her full potential yet.

SuperS was targeted at Chibiusa. The show was mainly about her. Hence why Usagi was "dependent" on Chibiusa. They changed the focus and in order to do so, they had to make Chibiusa more prominent somehow. And using this way, it was to help put the spotlight on her and help improve her power. If you want to get technical, Chibiusa doesn't even do anything. Helios is the one that actually does something. Chibiusa just calls him. But other than that, Helios does all the work. Not Chibiusa. She doesn't power up Usagi.

Also, keep in mind, SuperS was more of an anime thing. The Golden Crystal isn't Chibiusa's, it's Mamoru's. They just didn't want to have more of a spotlight on Mamoru; they wanted to keep him in the dark, I guess. And Chibiusa was the main focus in SuperS. o_O so yeah, it makes sense with how Chibiusa helped use the Golden Crystal in SuperS to defeat Nehelenia because of the direction the anime took SuperS.

I haven't seen R in awhile, so I can't say much here except; the anime doesn't follow the manga and there's lovely plotholes. For example, Chibiusa gets her own pink moon crystal (the pink moon crystal being a silver crystal is debatable. Don't we have a thread on this?), so what is this with the silver crystal? Second, an even bigger plothole: why is it impossible to use the power of the silver crystal with two of them present in the future, but not in the past? o_O it's still the same object, so that makes no sense to me at all. But, plotholes.

What morons call Chibiusa the weakest anyway? Are the new to the series or just Chibiusa haters? Because she's just a little girl. I swear these days people just amaze me because they're just getting progressively dumber.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 2:21 pm

I agree with Chibi-usa being weak when she was with the senshi but, I think in the future when she is older she may surpass sailor moon even...I guess a good example (Maybe?) Would be Gohan from Dragonball Z.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 2:36 pm

Well, CHibiusa's silver crystal and Usagi's are two different crystals. They can coexist. The manga stated clearly that what we called "CHibiusa's Legendary Silver Crystal" was the one she cried out when Puu died :B And this same crystal became the Pink Moon Crystal.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 2:38 pm

Yeah so it's kind of a variation of the silver crystal. Yes. But it's more, Chibiusa speed. Hence why it's called the pink moon crystal Razz you're right. She has her own crystal and they're different.

People just need to remember, she's a child. And people need to stop being stupid.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 7:07 pm

okay, i'm a chibiusa hater.

that being said, i think that she is VERY strong and will likely become the strongest of all senshi when she grows up.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 7:09 pm

I don't even think she's that weak, only when shes introduced in S as a "soldier-in-training" after S she seems pretty competent. I think its just Chibiusa-haters XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 9:05 pm

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
I don't even think she's that weak, only when shes introduced in S as a "soldier-in-training" after S she seems pretty competent. I think its just Chibiusa-haters XD

I was JUST about to say that. And what Lady Tux said. I mean of course she's the weakest, she's like half the (physical) age as everyone else. I think people who don't like chibi just don't like her character and that it has nothing to do with how weak she is. I think she's weak compared to the other scouts of course because she's new, but she's way stronger than any other kid would be if they were a sailor scout that young.

But I mean in SuperS she has the power to summon a frigging unicorn from another galaxy just by saying a couple of words so I mean I guess that takes some strength too.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   18th October 2012, 11:30 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:


What morons call Chibiusa the weakest anyway? Are the new to the series or just Chibiusa haters? Because she's just a little girl. I swear these days people just amaze me because they're just getting progressively dumber.
I'm pretty sure I made it clear in the opening post that I was speaking about the anime version's portrayal of Chibi-usa, hence I only mentioned the anime in the opening post. It's a pretty common criticism of the anime version that one of the complains is they made Sailor Chibi Moon's powers weaker than it was in the manga. Little kids with incredibly strong magical powers is very common in fantasy entertainment. It happens all the time in anime especially. Gohan in DBZ was already mentioned and you have Sakura Kinomoto in Cardcaptor Sakura who becomes one of the most powerful magical girls in that series even though she's only ten years old. Then you have the kids in Harry Potter that are pretty powerful with their magic.
And while I disagree with the people who complain about Chibi-usa, is there really any need for the name calling here?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 9:16 am

Okay, but Sailor Moon isn't like DBZ or Cardcaptors? o_O Sailor Moon is like what started magical girl stuff and other stories went their own separate ways. And even even more, Cardcaptors and all those other magical girl shows you've listed are their own things; their own stories. So, they can't compare. Different universes. And DBZ isn't even magical girl so why do you even bring up that series? o_O it's irrelevant. Yeah, I know all about Gohan being the strongest because he's half saiyan, half human. It is still, unrelated. Different show, different plot, different way things work.

You wanna know something? People are dense. Even in this fandom. People don't think about things. For example, people that genuinely think Chibi Moon fails are like "but why isn't she the most powerful?" Because it's called SAILOR MOON. It's about her mother, not her. She's not Sailor Moon yet, so it's not about her. Her mother is the most powerful and that's just how it is. And the other senshi outrank Chibiusa technically because Chibiusa is, as she herself mentions several, several times, the soldier in training. People have to compare to other series, complain about something, going "oh, it's flawed some how because blah blah blah. I mean you have these anime/manga and it's not like this anime/manga" and it's like "they're not even related?" and "stop complaining?".

Plus, yeah, a lot of hate I'm sure does come from the Chibiusa haters who flat out just don't like her and they criticize her character. And it's fine that they don't like her. But people really should think about things, very carefully, before always having to complain about something, make comparisons constantly, and just overall knit pick without giving it some real thought.

So basically, we know why Chibiusa is the weakest. And we know there's not really any counter arguments (though please, feel free to pull up a manga scan where Chibiusa defeats the head "baddie" all by herself if there is one) because we haven't seen her have screen time basically outdoing Usagi and the reasons are:

1) Because it's about Usagi, not her.
2) She's a little girl. She's like at least half the age of all the other senshi.
3) She's a solider in training. If you're in training, you're not going to be in equal power (or even surpass) to those around you that are not in training. (and there comes a point in time where Gohan is no longer in "training", as in, learning how to fight. He trains with others to get stronger, but he comes to a point where he's no longer a fighter in training that is learning how to fight, no? So those are two different trainings. Though irrelevant, you pull in DBZ so I just wanted to point this out.)
4) She hasn't tapped into her full power yet. See reasons 2 and 3 for why that is.

Okay? Very Happy

Also I just want to know, I'm totally not aiming like, all of this directly at you. I mean it all towards the people that hate Chibiusa pretty much. Because that's where a lot of criticism of her stems from.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 10:18 am

I guess everyone pretty much made their point here. Something nobody pointed out that could support her is a scene from S when Sailor Moon grabbed hold of the Holy Grail.

Sailor Moon never had the white clips in her hair in regular form, but when she grabbed the Holy Grail, they appeared on Chibi Moon's head and never left. Even though they are just clips, they only appeared on Sailor Moon in Super and & Eternal form. I think that says at least something about Chibi Moon's power to come.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 11:11 am

@Lust wrote:
I guess everyone pretty much made their point here. Something nobody pointed out that could support her is a scene from S when Sailor Moon grabbed hold of the Holy Grail.

Sailor Moon never had the white clips in her hair in regular form, but when she grabbed the Holy Grail, they appeared on Chibi Moon's head and never left. Even though they are just clips, they only appeared on Sailor Moon in Super and & Eternal form. I think that says at least something about Chibi Moon's power to come.

You know, I actually like this thought, Lust. Though it's small, you could be onto something.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 11:42 am

Oh yeah, I remember that now. They didn't really play much on that unfortunately. Its was like "oh what are these clips?" then that was it. In SuperS it was just part of the upgrade.

Also, in the OP, I notice Black Lady was mentioned. I think the only reason she was as powerful as she was in that form is due to Wiseman's powers. I'm sure it unlocked some potential power in her, but the majority of Black Lady's powers came from Wiseman. So I don't think you can really use that as a way to show Chibi-Usa's power.

But yeah...as stated, she's only "weak" because she's in training.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 12:01 pm

Small Lady wrote:
Oh yeah, I remember that now. They didn't really play much on that unfortunately. Its was like "oh what are these clips?" then that was it. In SuperS it was just part of the upgrade.

I like Lust's idea better.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 12:03 pm

But...i wasn't arguing his idea? I was just stating that the anime brought that up but then ignored it. I agree, its probably a symbol of the potential power in her.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 12:07 pm

Small Lady wrote:


Also, in the OP, I notice Black Lady was mentioned. I think the only reason she was as powerful as she was in that form is due to Wiseman's powers. I'm sure it unlocked some potential power in her, but the majority of Black Lady's powers came from Wiseman. So I don't think you can really use that as a way to show Chibi-Usa's power.

But yeah...as stated, she's only "weak" because she's in training.
But Esmeraude wasn't able to control Wiseman's power and it ended up turning her into that out of control dragon monster, so I think you already have to have some potential for power in order to use Wiseman's power. Another example of Chibi-usa's strength was in that episode where the Black Moon attacked her school and Chibi-usa went into random Super Saiyan mode when her friend Momo was attacked.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 12:08 pm

Small Lady wrote:
But...i wasn't arguing his idea? I was just stating that the anime brought that up but then ignored it. I agree, its probably a symbol of the potential power in her.

>.>

<.<

Yes you were.

But yay for potential in Chibiusa. I feel like this thread could help revive that other thread that I think exists about if Chibiusa will surpass Usagi.

It'd be cool if you could link two threads together. Not merge but like, put them together so they can be read together. Does that make sense? XD Like "Debate: is Chibiusa Really the Weakest Sailor Solider to be read with Debate: Will Chibiusa surpass Usagi in power?" or something.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 12:08 pm

We could just throw in the link here?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 12:13 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 12:47 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
The anime version of Chibi-usa is often bashed by Sailor Moon fans for being the weakest of the Sailor Soldiers, mainly because the anime always has her Pink Sugar Heart Attack fail, but is she really as weak as her critics say? When Chibi-usa turns into Black Lady in R, she nearly succeeds in beating the Sailor Soldiers in every fight they're involved with and Chibi-usa only loses to the Inners because of the Power of Love trope. But in terms of magical powers, Chibi-usa clearly out-classes the Sailor Soldiers' magic in these episodes. When Usagi tries to use her Silver Crystal to kill Wiseman, it's not powerful enough and she almost gets defeated and it's only thanks to Chibi-usa and her Silver Crystal that they can kill Wiseman. In Supers, Usagi is unable to use the powers of the Golden Crystal to kill Nehelenia and even when she combines her powers with that of the Inners, they're still unable to defeat her and Chibi-usa alone is the only one who can use the Golden Crystal's powers to defeat Nehelina. So when you think about it, one could argue Chibi-usa is more powerful than the Sailor Soldiers.

I don't find it convincing that she outclasses Sailor Soldiers. As Black Lady she takes powers from Black Cristal and loses with purification. It requires two Silver Crystals to defeat Wiseman, but it doesn't mean that Chibiusa's stronger, only that two Crystals are better than one.

And IIRC with Golden Crystal it wasn't that she only could use it, but that she had the idea to ask normal people of Earth to join with power of their dreams to move the Crystal (great idea).

So IMO she is the weakest, though as others said it could be attributed to her being younger and in training. I don't see it as bashing or criticism, as level of power isn't a flaw.

Besides in anime everybody is weaker than in manga.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 1:01 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:


So basically, we know why Chibiusa is the weakest. And we know there's not really any counter arguments (though please, feel free to pull up a manga scan where Chibiusa defeats the head "baddie" all by herself if there is one) because we haven't seen her have screen time basically outdoing Usagi and the reasons are
I don't know about the manga, but there was an episode of S where Chibi-usa killed Tellulu's plant monster with her Pink Sugar Heart Attack which was one of the few instances where it actually worked.

Quote :
1) Because it's about Usagi, not her.
2) She's a little girl. She's like at least half the age of all the other senshi.
3) She's a solider in training. If you're in training, you're not going to be in equal power (or even surpass) to those around you that are not in training. (and there comes a point in time where Gohan is no longer in "training", as in, learning how to fight. He trains with others to get stronger, but he comes to a point where he's no longer a fighter in training that is learning how to fight, no? So those are two different trainings. Though irrelevant, you pull in DBZ so I just wanted to point this out.)
4) She hasn't tapped into her full power yet. See reasons 2 and 3 for why that is.

My point about DBZ is that there is precedent in fantasy entertainment and in anime for kids to have incredibly strong powers. Sailor Moon was intended to be a children's show aimed at 9 year old audience and even in Sailor Moon, there is precedent for kids having incredibly strong powers. Hotaru was just a kid too but she was regarded as a major threat and the Soldier of Death, so I don't know if age necessarily has anything to do with power in Sailor Moon, such as when Baby Hotaru killed all of Nehelania's monsters at once.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 3:23 pm

I think your forgetting the fact that Chibiusa is the child member of the "core cast", Hotaru only pops up in a dozen or so episodes, so they make a big deal out of her... Of the true "main cast" of 9 (that is Usagi, Ami, Rei, Makoto, Minako, Mamoru, Luna, Artemis and Chibiusa). Chibiusa is the youngest and least experienced, regardless of Hotaru being young, she is almost a "special guest" character.

I think also this debate isn't taking into account time...

Chibiusa in the series:

R: Little girl, harbours intense power that she can't control.
S: Begins to start to train to manage this power
SuperS: Competent enough to join the "big girls", apparently now on level with them

You're forgetting in R how much power Chibiusa had... even without transforming in the anime, you could argue "its the silver crystal" but surely the fact that she can handle the power of the Silver Crystal, without necessarily controlling it properly at that young age she has incredible power and potential.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   19th October 2012, 4:31 pm

Also, Neon, you keep missing it, even when you make a comparison to Hotaru. Hotaru is just Sailor Saturn. She's not Chibi Saturn, she's Sailor Saturn. Hotaru is not training with anyone and she's not going to take the place of a Sailor Saturn. She is the Sailor Saturn. Just like Mako is Jupiter, Minako is Venus, etc. Chibiusa is a solider in training and another moon. There's already a Sailor Moon; Usagi. So that's different. She's the in-training Sailor Moon. So, yeah, naturally she's weaker. Even in comparison to Hotaru (as a baby, as a child, etc.). One day she will become Sailor Moon and unlock her true power when Usagi is not Sailor Moon. One day.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   20th October 2012, 6:46 pm

But you also have to keep into account that in the anime version, how much power you have has more to do with how much you belief in yourself rather than a person's age. In all the examples where Chibi-usa did release an extreme amount of power, it was because of her belief and didn't have anything to do with her age.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   20th October 2012, 7:07 pm

I really don't think when she tapped into her power at a young age, like in R I believe, she was "believing" in herself. I believe she was crying/screaming.

When has Chibiusa had an extreme burst in power? o_o because I haven't seen it in the anime.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Chibi-usa Really The Weakest Sailor Soldier?   20th October 2012, 8:48 pm

There was an episode of R where Esmeruade attacked Chibi-usa's school and Chibi-usa released a large burst of energy that sent her droids flying after they tried to attack her friend, Momo and there was Chibi-usa's fight with Tellulu's plant monster.
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