HomePortalFAQRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 Theory: Coding

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Toft
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 345
Join date : 2011-07-23
Location : Sweden


PostSubject: Theory: Coding   23rd July 2011, 10:02 pm

So one of the books we've had around the house lately is Boys' Love Manga, a collection of essays on BL as a phenomena and how people relate to it. It also contains other bonus queer stuff though! Notably, an essay titled Hiding in Straight Sight, which I'm bringing up here because it talks about Sailor Moon:

Quote :
Some European customs were imported to Japan in the 19th century and preserved or revived there when they were already obsolete in Europe: the language of flowers or the character system of blood types, both a recurring convention of shojo manga, have that origin. Obsolete symbols from early European queer subcultures were also preserved: around 1900 the colour green was associated with male homosexuality, so much so that Oscar Wilde and his circle were said to wear green carnations to recognise each other. In manga, the colour green seems to indicate homosexuality as well. It is prominent in the Kaze to Ki no Uta* cover artwork, which sometimes even depicts the characters with green hair. In the story arc of the Sailor Moon S anime series (1994 - 1995) that introduces Haruka and Michiru (a butch/femme or female-to-male transgender/femme couple), the eyes of an obsessed girl turn green before she tries to kiss a girl. Michiru's green hair seems to mark her otherwise "normal" feminine beauty as queer.

Haruka, the butch or female-to-male transgendered sailor warrior, is Sailor Uranus, which indicates her homosexuality or "male soul" ... . The German Karl Heinrich Ulrichs (1825 - 1895 CE), who founded the earliest gay rights movement in about 1862, coined the term "Uranier" (Uranian) for gay men and lesbians. He believed that a gay man was a female soul trapped in a male body and a lesbian was a male soul trapped in a female body. ...

* early (mid-70s) example of shojo dealing with male homosexuality, by Takemiya Keiko

OK.

I have a few things to say about this:

1. I absolutely buy the green associations in Kaze to Ki no Uta, as a lot of 70s manga really did play strongly and consciously with a lot of western symbols of homosexuality. (Including, incidentally, roses - yup, that's where they seem to creep in from in early shojo, and then they just never leave. Yes, this does make Tuxedo Mask kind of hilarious to me. Sorry.) I'm not really sure what I make of the Sailor Moon argument, on the other hand. It feels, uh... less sound, at least at first glance.

2. I'm not really seeing the FtM reading of Haruka, who I think one could absolutely read as somewhere on the trans spectrum but more in the region of genderqueer, i.e. not identifying that strongly with either gender or feeling oneself to be in some respects both (my interpretation of Haruka's gender identity I think varies depending on which canon one is looking at). Above all though I think she reads as a butch woman; I can definitely see the appeal for trans people of claiming her though.

3. That aside, the Uranus thing has always delighted me for exactly the reasons pointed out here; it is such wildly unsubtle gay coding even before you take into account the fact that Haruka (and Michiru, for that matter) could comfortably have walked right out of whichever early lesbian subculture one pleases. O I do love me some unsubtle gay coding, especially when it's (for once omg) not being applied to villains as an explanation for their evil.

I think I have more things to say about Sailor Moon and coding/symbolism, actually, but the books are in the room people are sleeping in. It's tough being the only morning person in a household.
Back to top Go down
http://tofsla.dreamwidth.org
Lady Lucina
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : Advisor to the Goddess
Posts : 175
Join date : 2011-07-05
Age : 26
Location : Sea of Serenity


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   29th July 2011, 6:42 pm

I don't see Haruka as trans at all, but a gender-queer, yes. She seems to yo-yo between being "girl" and "boy" but doesn't give the idea of a boy in a girls body. I feel like the persona originally making commentary about gay men being women in mens bodies just happened to be from a time/place where the concept of trans and homosexuality were not fully understood.

Other than that, the coding makes loads of sense. And I, like you, am glad to see that represented by the "good guys" as opposed to a villain.

___________________________


"Come, blessed Goddess, prudent, starry, bright, come moony-lamp with chaste and splendid light,
Shine on these sacred rites with prosp'rous rays, and pleas'd accept thy suppliant's mystic praise."

Orpheus

Back to top Go down
http://bunnyblushies.tumblr.com
jaknel
Star Seed


Star Seed

Title : J / Aknel
Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 26
Location : Puerto Rico


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   6th August 2011, 3:45 pm

You mentioned the rose (flowers being symbols of gay culture) and there are examples on this one. James (Team Rocket) from Pokémon always carries a rose and it's said to be gay in the non-dubbed anime (which perfectly explains why he dresses as a woman too many times during the series). Also, Waluigi from Nintendo shows a rose everytime he wins in one of the minigames of Mario Party 8; and during the Mario games, countless times Waluigi is portrayed as feminine with some of his moves (not that he actually IS gay, but yeah). When it comes to Sailor Moon, Zoisite, is gay (in the english dub they "make" him a woman, same goes for Fish Eye. Close-minded americans). Every time he teleports pink rose petals swirl around him. As for Haruka and Michiru / S. Uranus and S. Neptune, everytime they appear, rose petals pass the screen (not always they pass in the setting, but the picture itself of the tv).

___________________________

Jonathan Aknel
Back to top Go down
Rachael
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 83
Join date : 2011-07-03
Age : 30

PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   7th August 2011, 12:25 am

Um...where exactly did you hear that James is gay in the Japanese version of Pokemon? I've never heard that.
Back to top Go down
jaknel
Star Seed


Star Seed

Title : J / Aknel
Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 26
Location : Puerto Rico


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   7th August 2011, 1:50 pm

I actually just heard it from a very "reliable" sourse (person if you will), but I didn't get any proof. So forget that one, maybe he (James) just have a tendency to cross-dress, and that doesn't prove it, it just made sense to me the moment I heard it Smile

___________________________

Jonathan Aknel
Back to top Go down
SailorStarWind
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : DEAD ACCOUNT left anime fandom to study
Posts : 135
Join date : 2011-07-04

PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   7th August 2011, 2:38 pm

@jaknel wrote:
I actually just heard it from a very "reliable" sourse (person if you will), but I didn't get any proof. So forget that one, maybe he (James) just have a tendency to cross-dress, and that doesn't prove it, it just made sense to me the moment I heard it Smile

If so, he must swing both ways: the manga ended with him and Jessie married and expecting a baby... :S I think that Team Rocket are meant to be a couple, but in a very non-traditional sense: Jessie acts (and often dresses) more like a guy, whereas James is more girly... I think that their characterization is supposed to be a humorous jab at traditional gender roles...

___________________________

DEAD ACCOUNT. Left anime fandom to study. It was fun, guys. Smile Hope things go well for you.
Back to top Go down
Rachael
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 83
Join date : 2011-07-03
Age : 30

PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   8th August 2011, 1:56 am

@jaknel wrote:
I actually just heard it from a very "reliable" sourse (person if you will), but I didn't get any proof. So forget that one, maybe he (James) just have a tendency to cross-dress, and that doesn't prove it, it just made sense to me the moment I heard it Smile

Well, I guess you can't say who that person is, judging from how you said it. I don't one can assume a character is gay just from how they act. James has done nothing to indicate he's attracted to other men, as far as I know. In fact, there are a few indications that he's attracted to women. Of course, that doesn't mean he's not gay. Heck, Brock could even be gay and just fooling everyone.

I do remember reading somewhere that Eric Stuart, who voiced James for several years, saying that he tried to make James "sound gay."

James doesn't cross-dress much anymore, anyway. Sad I guess some people were complaining about it or something.
Back to top Go down
Sailor Fairy Lights
Founder


Founder

Title : Lady of the Forums
Posts : 7872
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 26
Location : Northern California


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   9th August 2011, 10:46 am

Try to keep this on topic loves! <3

___________________________

[[avatar art by ash]]
Back to top Go down
http://moonlightlace.tumblr.com http://twitter.com/SimplySMshop http://moonlightlace.tumblr.com http://alittlemisscurious.deviantart.com/ http://simplysailrmoon.livejournal.com/
Melissa Angelik
Star Seed


Star Seed

Title : The Lost Angel
Posts : 33
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th August 2011, 9:48 pm

Going on the whole "gay-coding" thing, it could be said that since Sailor Jupiter is always pictured with her rose earrings, she could be one of the gay characters in Sailor Moon. I know she is straight, but she is another of those characters that bypasses traditional gender roles, since she is easily one of the toughest characters. And as for Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen, he also counts as a gender bending character. His weapons are "girly" and he is not the staring hero or the "White Knight", Sailor Moon is.
If anything, this could be a conscious decision to rebel against very rigid and limiting gender roles and should be commended.
Back to top Go down
http://melissa-angelik.tumblr.com/
Brit-chan
Senior Member
Small Lady Emeritus


Senior Member  Small Lady Emeritus

Title : Queen of the Cat Kingdom
Posts : 20318
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 29
Location : Lafayette, LA


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th August 2011, 10:00 pm

^^ Especially if you are looking at the manga! Mamoru/Tuxedo Mask is CONSTANTLY being saved by Usa/Sailor Moon. Tuxedo Mask even at one point admits to not having any powers and feeling weak compared to her. But at least, TM does get some powers but instead of becoming more powerful than SM, he uses it to work together with her and with his love for her. So way different than the usual male hero stereotypes. I really wonder if Takeuchi thought through a lot of this. I only question because when i read her little blurbs and interviews in the manga, she always states like "well, my editor was like "you should do this" and i was like "OK" and yeah. I don't know if its the way Japanese speak regarding themselves or if she was doing it for fun and not really as an indepth feminist/gender role statement.

REGARDLESS, I hope she knows now the open discourse and debate that goes on because of her works. Smile (sorry i went a bit off there, i kinda started rambling)

___________________________


Avie by Marsiepan|| Eternal Knight's Myufu <3

Back to top Go down
http://seaofserenity.net http://britchan.tumblr.com/ http://brit-chan.deviantart.com
Toft
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 345
Join date : 2011-07-23
Location : Sweden


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th August 2011, 10:57 pm

*laughs* Well you know, in the anime Makoto has her whole I WANT TO BE JUST LIKE HARUKA thing, which, sorry Makoto, is not actually less gay than wanting to be with Haruka. It's just more butch.

But yeah, I mean, this stuff is fun to play with - believing it to be entirely deliberate is another matter. Very Happy (The rose symbolism for example came into shojo in the 70s when it was often used as a queer symbol in series like rose of versailles and kaze to ki no uta - erm, don't go check out the latter without being a fully consenting adult, omg - and then it just kind of took over shojo and now everyone has to have them, completely without context. A lot of the symbols used in shojo had a very specific meaning when they showed up but are often repeated mostly because they're pretty!)
Back to top Go down
http://tofsla.dreamwidth.org
Melissa Angelik
Star Seed


Star Seed

Title : The Lost Angel
Posts : 33
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   2nd September 2011, 5:17 pm

In the end, the only thing I am annoyed about is that the deliberately gay characters in the anime were dubbed as female, and Haruka and Makoto were reimagined as "cousins" (although, it could be seen as a throw back to beginning 20th century convention of lesbians living as family members just to fly under the radar).
I hope that the rerelease of the manga in about a week, sparks a resurgence of the fandom and we get a proper dub.
Back to top Go down
http://melissa-angelik.tumblr.com/
Toft
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 345
Join date : 2011-07-23
Location : Sweden


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   2nd September 2011, 9:55 pm

I am pretty sure the Swedish dub also made Zoisite into a lady. But the Swedish dub really was the pinnacle of special, being basically invented based on vague episode summaries, so that wasn't even the worst of its problems...
Back to top Go down
http://tofsla.dreamwidth.org
Roro
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : GC's Michiru Kaioh
Posts : 1715
Join date : 2011-06-24
Age : 24
Location : Indianapolis, IN


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th December 2011, 4:54 am

It's just lovely how gender, sexuality, and feminism all go together.

First of all, I also don't think Haruka could be considered transgendered. Takeuchi has said that only women can be sailor senshi. So why would Takeuchi make a transgendered character that would ultimately become a man and would no longer be considered a senshi? It doesn't make sense. As most have said, I do believe Haruka is more genderqueer.

As for the green hair that use to symbolize homosexuality, it's a very interesting thought. I doubt, though, that Takeuchi had this in mind when she was developing her characters. If I'm wrong, she could have chosen Neptune's and Fiore hair color based on this. (If anyone knows of any other characters from SM with green hair and a questionable sexual orientation, feel free to name them).

This is a bit off topic but I've recently been questioning Michiru's sexual orientation. I've been listening to the character poems and songs that each character has and from what I've seen and heard, Michiru seems to imply that she forced by fate to be with Haruka. In choosing to become Neptune, Michiru also seemed to choose to be bound to Uranus and Haruka. It seems to me before becoming Neptune, Michiru might have been straight but "chose" to become became lesbian/bisexual since Neptune and Uranus were bound together even before Michiru and Haruka were reincarnated as Neptune and Uranus. The reason why I say that I question Michiru's sexuality and say that she might be bisexual is because she has been known to flirt with men, the most notable instance is when Michiru asks Seiya if he would help her unzip her dress. But this of course is debatable.

The most interesting part of Toft's post is the rose's symbolism for homosexuality. (Interestingly enough the beginning of my name means rose in Spanish and I myself am gay. LOL What a coincidence!) As for Makoto wearing rose studded earrings, what a funny coincidence. LOL I also have bring up how Mamoru offered a rose to his "friend" Fiore and how Fiore tried to return the gesture by finding the most beautiful flower in the galaxy. Once again, someone could make a case for Mamoru being gay as well. If I were to make a case for Mamoru being gay, I would have to go back to the whole reincarnation theory and state that prior to being reincarnated as Tuxedo Mask, Mamoru was gay. This would make sense since Mamoru did offer Fiore the flower before he became Tuxedo Mask.


___________________________


Back to top Go down
Brit-chan
Senior Member
Small Lady Emeritus


Senior Member  Small Lady Emeritus

Title : Queen of the Cat Kingdom
Posts : 20318
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 29
Location : Lafayette, LA


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th December 2011, 11:51 am

So, I'm not fully familiar with some of the terminology I see thrown around in gender and sexuality discussions.

What exactly does genderqueer mean?

As far as Haruka goes, I always felt she was just gender neutral. It didn't matter if she was a woman or man, but I'm thinking more of the manga scene where Usagi asks Haruka "Are you a man? Or are you a woman?" and Haruka responds "Man, Woman, why should something like that matter?" It was always really interesting to me. She just transcends gender. I really liked those subtleties that Naoko had in the manga.

As far as your thoughts on Michiru, I personally don't really follow the anime if I'm going to consider gender discussions. This is mainly due to the fact that the anime was directed and produced mostly by men and took something that was written by a woman for women and spun it with a man's view. So at times, when it comes to discussions, I feel the anime is corrupted a bit. I personally don't really think the character poems and such should really come into play with their actual characters. First, the translation could be getting thrown off and losing some meaning it originally had intended. Also, I don't believe any of the poems and dramas were written by Naoko.

I dunno what it is, but when it comes to Sailor Moon and discussion such as this, I can't really use the anime. But thats just me I guess. :/

___________________________


Avie by Marsiepan|| Eternal Knight's Myufu <3

Back to top Go down
http://seaofserenity.net http://britchan.tumblr.com/ http://brit-chan.deviantart.com
Roro
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : GC's Michiru Kaioh
Posts : 1715
Join date : 2011-06-24
Age : 24
Location : Indianapolis, IN


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th December 2011, 5:55 pm

Small Lady wrote:
So, I'm not fully familiar with some of the terminology I see thrown around in gender and sexuality discussions.

What exactly does genderqueer mean?

As far as Haruka goes, I always felt she was just gender neutral. It didn't matter if she was a woman or man, but I'm thinking more of the manga scene where Usagi asks Haruka "Are you a man? Or are you a woman?" and Haruka responds "Man, Woman, why should something like that matter?" It was always really interesting to me. She just transcends gender. I really liked those subtleties that Naoko had in the manga.

As far as your thoughts on Michiru, I personally don't really follow the anime if I'm going to consider gender discussions. This is mainly due to the fact that the anime was directed and produced mostly by men and took something that was written by a woman for women and spun it with a man's view. So at times, when it comes to discussions, I feel the anime is corrupted a bit. I personally don't really think the character poems and such should really come into play with their actual characters. First, the translation could be getting thrown off and losing some meaning it originally had intended. Also, I don't believe any of the poems and dramas were written by Naoko.

I dunno what it is, but when it comes to Sailor Moon and discussion such as this, I can't really use the anime. But thats just me I guess. :/

Genderqueer can mean a lot of things. It can mean that some don't identify as either sex, that they identify with either sex, that they're gender fluid etc. As for the anime being less accurate to Naoko's thoughts, you're probably right when you say that it was more influenced by men than the manga. Between the anime and manga, the manga would probably be the best form to form a theory. But as you know, though, I haven't read the manga so I can't really speak on that aspect. After the manga has finished being re-released, though, I'll be sure to form an opinion using the manga as well.

___________________________


Back to top Go down
Brit-chan
Senior Member
Small Lady Emeritus


Senior Member  Small Lady Emeritus

Title : Queen of the Cat Kingdom
Posts : 20318
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 29
Location : Lafayette, LA


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th December 2011, 5:56 pm

That is what I thought, but I wasn't sure. I've seen other terms such as pansexual and so on.

And I can't wait till you read all the manga! I think you'll have a whole new perspective of Sailor Moon. Smile

___________________________


Avie by Marsiepan|| Eternal Knight's Myufu <3

Back to top Go down
http://seaofserenity.net http://britchan.tumblr.com/ http://brit-chan.deviantart.com
Halfpixieman
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : Sarah
Posts : 417
Join date : 2011-11-04
Age : 24
Location : Australia


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   14th December 2011, 11:52 pm

@Roro wrote:
The reason why I say that I question Michiru's sexuality and say that she might be bisexual is because she has been known to flirt with men, the most notable instance is when Michiru asks Seiya if he would help her unzip her dress. But this of course is debatable.

I always thought this too but then I read an suggestion somewhere that it was because Michiru was aware of what Seiya really was, a woman.

Perhaps?
Back to top Go down
Roro
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : GC's Michiru Kaioh
Posts : 1715
Join date : 2011-06-24
Age : 24
Location : Indianapolis, IN


PostSubject: Re: Theory: Coding   15th December 2011, 12:38 pm

@Halfpixieman wrote:
@Roro wrote:
The reason why I say that I question Michiru's sexuality and say that she might be bisexual is because she has been known to flirt with men, the most notable instance is when Michiru asks Seiya if he would help her unzip her dress. But this of course is debatable.

I always thought this too but then I read an suggestion somewhere that it was because Michiru was aware of what Seiya really was, a woman.

Perhaps?

I don't know... Out of the main characters, Michiru seems to be one of the few who expresses her sexuality. LOL I

___________________________


Back to top Go down
 

Theory: Coding

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
The Galaxy Cauldron :: General Sailor Moon Discussions :: Theories, Debates and Headcanons-