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 [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru

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Momma Jupi
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PostSubject: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:17 pm

Alright, so this topic is somewhat, although not completely, about the break up between Usagi and Mamoru in the R season. More so it is about their getting back together. Because quite frankly, it never made very much sense to me. All the characters seem to spot the “aha! He wants to get back with you” moment and I was always left feeling as if I missed something. I’ve watched this in both the dubbed and subbed versions, just in case I missed a translation somewhere, but no, still at a loss. For the sake of this post, I am basing this off of the subbed version.

Click on the images for the large version. I felt like capping all of their dialog rather than typing it out. Razz

Ok, in the beginning of the episode, Usagi finally discovers why Mamoru has broken up with her after she gets the same dream that he has been plagued with. She goes to his apartment but he says that I he cannot be with her if he knows that it will endanger her life. I find the whole scene to be quite upsetting because you see how much it anguishes them both.


After Sailor Moon and the other Senshi have defeated the youma (this was about the promise bracelets that Usagi was trying to make so Mamoru would love her again), Tuxedo Kamen makes a comment. Now perhaps there is a hidden message in here? I think there may be but I think it is either too subtle or does not relate clearly (to me). I think his line that they "must overcome hardships" may be be a hidden message, but still. With everything that Mamoru has been putting Usagi through (ignoring her as Usagi, saving her life as Sailor Moon), this could easily be another one of those situations. Tuxedo Kamen then leaves.


This is where it gets interesting. Apparently, Rei and the others all clearly see that Mamoru has said, “Let’s get back together” because they urge her to go after him, commenting that “things were cleared.”  Personally, I do not understand where they get this from. Because he was nice to her and said that they would have to fight together? He is always saying things like that. It makes no sense to me.


Usagi runs after him and Mamoru does not push her away, instead he embraces her and kisses her.


And apparently everything else is forgotten! What in the world? What just happened that made him decide that he was going to stay with her regardless of the dreams he was having and what he told her earlier in his apartment? Ironically, the dreams stop (or at least they are not shown anymore), you never see the two of them together even though they are FINALLY together and the break up is not mentioned until they go to the Future and meet King Endymion. The whole matter was incredibly vague to me. After spending so much attention on why he could not be with her, the writers seemed to have completely glossed over their reconciliation without there being any clarification or discussion between Mamoru and Usagi. It just appears as if Mamoru suddenly changed his mind.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:01 am

I think it is, as you indicated, a product of the writers glossing over the variant causes of their break up. There wasn't really a "misunderstanding" between Usagi and Mamoru (Note: I wonder how that statement renders in Japanese): Mamoru is quite clearly haunted by the prospect of Usagi dying and is attempting to prevent that by distancing himself. I think he gave a weaker explanation to Usagi when he first decided to call things off, but I vaguely recall the truth of the matter gradually being revealed (and that seems to be supported by Usagi's lines in the screen caps you provided). It was less of a lover's spat and more of Mamoru fearing for Usagi's life.

Now, I could understand the nightmares not occurring after that point, either because the issue is at last resolve in Mamoru's mind and heart, or King Endymion was satisfied with the ultimate resolution. I would be inclined to think that the former is in play as things settle down emotionally between Usagi and Mamoru, and then they are resolved to remain unified in the face of the threat. That's ultimately what Tuxedo Kamen was going for with his line to the Sailor Senshi---that they should fight together rather than against one another (or at least avoid constant friction). As you pointed out, however, that is a rather unsatisfactory lead in to the mending of broken hearts at the end.

The only real indicator is that Tuxedo Kamen states that regardless of the hardships they encounter, they must press onward as one for the sake of the future. But as you mentioned, Jupiter, Tuxedo Kamen is prone to that type of rhetoric. One could also interpret his line differently, inferring that duty rather than personal desires should be their calling. Even if, say, they are encountering emotional obstacles, their task to defend the future is overriding.

I would ultimately blame this sudden shift on the writers trying to squeeze in their reconciliation during the appropriate episode. Yet it is an awfully quick resolution to a long mounting conflict.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:01 pm

Quote :
I think he gave a weaker explanation to Usagi when he first decided to call things off, but I vaguely recall the truth of the matter gradually being revealed (and that seems to be supported by Usagi's lines in the screen caps you provided).
Yes indeed! When he first broke up with her he gave some vague excuse of not loving her anymore. And then he told her it was because he did not like weak girls. It was only after Usagi had the dream and confronted him that he told her that it was for the sake of trying to prevent her death. Although a lot of this "misunderstanding" could have been prevented if Mamoru had simply told her about this, I still believe that the fear and guilt that Mamoru felt was sincere. I do feel bad for him quite a bit.

Quote :
Now, I could understand the nightmares not occurring after that point, either because the issue is at last resolve in Mamoru's mind and heart, or King Endymion was satisfied with the ultimate resolution.
I think that this is the reason as well. King Endymion (lamely) explains that he sent those dreams because he needed to make sure that Usagi and Mamoru's love was true and would not waver (there are so many loop-holes in this notion, I cannot even begin. As Mamoru, clearly he would already know that he and Usagi have an unwavering love, but never mind). Returning to what you said, yes, after the two of them reconcile, I guess he was satisfied and no longer felt the need to torture them with such nightmares.

In general, the writers spent an incredibly long time on Usagi and Mamoru's separation without even managing to put a decent amount of time in their finally getting back together. At first I was bothered by the fact that after this episode, you never see Usagi and Mamoru together until they go to the future. That was incredibly annoying. And then I realized that we were never even given a proper episode of their reuniting.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:29 pm

In a slight deviation from the discussion, I do believe that Mamoru generally gets a bad rap, unfairly I'd say, from fans based on his behavior in the R season (and his being brainwashed in the first season). He was pretty clearly disturbed by the dreams and terribly upset by feeling the need to reject Usagi entirely. If every night I was haunted by the visions of someone I loved dying, I'd be on the psychological brink as well. With that said, as you hinted at, Mamoru would have done a lot better had he communicated with Usagi rather than shut her out. Wouldn't that be a more satisfactory response, to see that the two of them faced their problems in tandem? For being the mature half of that couple, Mamoru performed well below par. He retreated from the threat entirely, and put Usagi in potential peril.

Sailor Jupiter wrote:
I think that this is the reason as well. King
Endymion (lamely) explains that he sent those dreams because he needed
to make sure that Usagi and Mamoru's love was true and would not waver
(there are so many loop-holes in this notion, I cannot even begin. As
Mamoru, clearly he would already know that he and Usagi have an unwavering love, but never mind).

Is it possibly a matter of preserving the future by following the events of the past? It's circular, really, but King Endymion might have gone through with the "test" because he recognized the outcome as Mamoru. The time travel element really throws a monkey in the wrench because it's unclear how much the future characters know will occur in the past.

Sailor Jupiter wrote:
In general, the writers spent an incredibly long
time on Usagi and Mamoru's separation without even managing to put a
decent amount of time in their finally getting back together.

For all the build up, it was certainly a lackluster denouement. One episode weakly resolves about ten episodes worth of mounting tension and relative uncertainty.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:24 pm

Honestly, I think I would combine episode 69 (the Sleeping Beauty one) and episode 77 because it would make more sense to me if he decided to stay with Usagi after realizing she could die even if he stayed away from her.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:42 pm

Nina wrote:
Honestly, I think I would combine episode 69 (the Sleeping Beauty one) and episode 77 because it would make more sense to me if he decided to stay with Usagi after realizing she could die even if he stayed away from her.

That is actually a fabulous point, Nina. ^^ First, I adore that scene so very much. I thought it was heart-breakingly beautiful. But you are so right -- Usagi almost died regardless of Mamoru staying away from her. I just wish the writers would have been a little more romantic for us and at least included a small discussion of sorts. Or at least have showed them together after the breakup. Mamoru takes a short break from the following five or six episodes after the reconciliation. :S

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:35 pm

Sailor Jupiter wrote:
That is actually a fabulous point, Nina. ^^ First, I adore that scene so very much. I thought it was heart-breakingly beautiful. But you are so right -- Usagi almost died regardless of Mamoru staying away from her. I just wish the writers would have been a little more romantic for us and at least included a small discussion of sorts. Or at least have showed them together after the breakup. Mamoru takes a short break from the following five or six episodes after the reconciliation. :S
Thank you. I love that scene so much, it's so beautiful and sad at the same time.

This is a very good topic. I thought about this scene before. I can't understand why the others think the whole break-up is over. "It's obvious by the passsionate way you two look at each other." Could it be because Mamoru is looking, really looking at Usagi and talking to her directly, instead of turning away from her or looking down like he used to? Maybe that's why she blushed.







I'm not sure... scratch

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:16 pm

I think as stated before, it was a bad part on the writers. I honestly think that the writers were just trying to insert some pointless drama to try to make their relationship more interesting? Or perhaps more dynamic? Who knows. Because we all know that in the manga, the Black Moon Arc is a time where it seems Usagi and Mamoru get much closer as he is there to comfort her when Mars, Mercury, and Jupiter get captured, etc.

As much as I think some of the scenes during this part of the R season are sweet, it just kind of proves the dislike that the directors and head writers had towards Mamoru. Which is a shame really.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:19 am

If the break-up subplot had been done differently, it might've worked out better, like showing the audience the full reason early on, not 8 episodes later. We only see bits of the nightmare before episode 69.

We have 17 episodes of this:
Spoiler:
 

Which is a shame because it had so much potential. If I could remake the break-up, it would be like this:

Episode 61 - Mamoru has the first nightmare, breaks up with her but the audience sees the full dream and the situation is fully explained.
Episode 62-68 - Mamoru tries to avoid Usagi and Usagi tries to understand the reasons why he's acting that way.
Episode 69 - Usagi has the same nightmare, talks to him about it, he still says no, then she get in the fight that puts her to sleep, she's about to die in her sleep, then Luna goes to get Mamoru, he comes, wakes her up, and then the two get back together afterwards.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:56 pm

If only at times girls had been writing the anime instead of everything being done by men (seeing as the original was sort of a "created by girls for girls" kinda thing). /sigh

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:40 pm

Oh my gosh, Nina, your dialog killed me. XD But you are so right! That is exactly how it was! Drama drama and then suddenly HE LOVES YOU GO GET HIM. It was very badly written and put together. As much as I do not like the drama (as B-chan states, Mamoru in the manga is a stable being of support to Usagi when her friends are kidnapped during this time), it could have been used to strengthen Usagi & Mamoru's relationship had it been put together better. It kept climaxing to this emotional turmoil between the two and instead of resolving itself, it just ended abruptly and flatly.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:49 pm

Ok here's a theory. Do you think the reason it ended so quickly was cause people were complaining? Or don't they write these out ahead of time? Maybe they were going to put more into it and then suddenly it was like "OH WAIT THERE IS AN OVER ARCHING PLOT HERE BTW THAT NEEDS TO BE FINISHED. LOLS"

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:25 pm

Brit-chan wrote:
Ok here's a theory. Do you think the reason it ended so quickly was cause people were complaining? Or don't they write these out ahead of time? Maybe they were going to put more into it and then suddenly it was like "OH WAIT THERE IS AN OVER ARCHING PLOT HERE BTW THAT NEEDS TO BE FINISHED. LOLS"

I think these episodes are completed before they are released, because they have to deal with all the storyboards and animations, so I do not think that they would have time to work on them while they were airing them. I think "OH WAIT THERE IS AN OVER ARCHING PLOT HERE BTW THAT NEEDS TO BE FINISHED. LOLS" was basically what happened. Razz Either that or "LET'S MAKE MAMORU LOOK EVEN MORE LIKE A JERK AND A USELESS CHARACTER BY MAKING HIM SUDDENLY CHANGE HIS MIND WITHOUT PROPER RESOLVE."

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:11 am

I read an interview with the director and he said he disliked Mamoru because he got "his" girl and tried to make the audience dislike him as well. Rolling Eyes I need to find it again. I hope he was joking.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:33 pm

Wow seriously? This director sounds like a real @$$.

I think Mamoru did the right thing not explaining to Usagi why he broke up with her. If he had told her about these horrifying nightmares and a voice warning him to stay away from Usagi. What would've happened? Usagi would've been compelled to disregard the dreams and Mamoru's wishes that they be apart while he figures these dreams out. Usagi would've more forcibly asserted herself to be apart of Mamoru's life. Mamoru couldn't risk Usagi taking these actions and the warnings coming true. It was all to Protect her.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:43 pm

Sailor Nemesis wrote:
Wow seriously? This director sounds like a real @$$.

I think Mamoru did the right thing not explaining to Usagi why he broke up with her. If he had told her about these horrifying nightmares and a voice warning him to stay away from Usagi. What would've happened? Usagi would've been compelled to disregard the dreams and Mamoru's wishes that they be apart while he figures these dreams out. Usagi would've more forcibly asserted herself to be apart of Mamoru's life. Mamoru couldn't risk Usagi taking these actions and the warnings coming true. It was all to Protect her.

The director said he never likes the obvious love interest who gets with "his" girl...

I think he did the right thing too. It's easy to talk now but if he'd decided to stay with her I bet some fans would call him a selfish jerk for risking her life.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:30 pm

I honestly just found this whole season to be a giant crap on their relationship, yet absolutely hilarious at the same time.

In the first arc of the second season, he lost his memory... again. The whole point of the first season was so he could remember who he was. This is probably the most twisted, but one of the funniest things to think about for the whole anime. Mamoru literally dedicated himself in the first season to find out who he was to just be in the second season not remembering any of it. Then, he gets his memories back again and now he doesn't want to be with Usagi. What was the point in most of anything that has happened in the series by doing this?

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:33 pm

Lust wrote:
I honestly just found this whole season to be a giant crap on their relationship, yet absolutely hilarious at the same time.

In the first arc of the second season, he lost his memory... again. The whole point of the first season was so he could remember who he was. This is probably the most twisted, but one of the funniest things to think about for the whole anime. Mamoru literally dedicated himself in the first season to find out who he was to just be in the second season not remembering any of it. Then, he gets his memories back again and now he doesn't want to be with Usagi. What was the point in most of anything that has happened in the series by doing this?

But he didn't really WANT to break up with Usagi, he was doing it out of fear of the reoccuring dreams he was having. He didn't want her to die because of him so he thought that he should get away from her. However, this does not justify his decision and I think its rather dumb and was poorly executed by the writers of the anime. Cause like, they suddenly "make up" in one episode and then its just...bleh. I can argue why Mamoru did it, but i certainly do not approve either. XD

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:39 pm

Small Lady wrote:
Lust wrote:
I honestly just found this whole season to be a giant crap on their relationship, yet absolutely hilarious at the same time.

In the first arc of the second season, he lost his memory... again. The whole point of the first season was so he could remember who he was. This is probably the most twisted, but one of the funniest things to think about for the whole anime. Mamoru literally dedicated himself in the first season to find out who he was to just be in the second season not remembering any of it. Then, he gets his memories back again and now he doesn't want to be with Usagi. What was the point in most of anything that has happened in the series by doing this?

But he didn't really WANT to break up with Usagi, he was doing it out of fear of the reoccuring dreams he was having. He didn't want her to die because of him so he thought that he should get away from her. However, this does not justify his decision and I think its rather dumb and was poorly executed by the writers of the anime. Cause like, they suddenly "make up" in one episode and then its just...bleh. I can argue why Mamoru did it, but i certainly do not approve either. XD

I know why he did it, but by doing that, it didn't allow for any real growth in their relationship. I felt as though it didn't allow them to really get to know each other as Tsukino Usagi and Chiba Mamoru compared to Princess Serenity and Prince Endymion. Even in the third season, they don't even know each others' birthdays. That's weird to me.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:40 pm

Yeah I understand what you mean. I feel that the first arc of the R season, you got to see Usagi and Mamoru's relationship develop more even though he doesn't have any memories. I think the reason they don't know each others birthdays is A.) Usagi was dumb enough to not tell him much less ask him about his (I can see this seeing that its..Usagi) 2. All that brain washing and memory loss has gotten to Mamoru! XD

Also the anime is SOOOOO anti-Mamoru compared to the manga its not even funny... I remember reading somewhere that its rumored the head director didn't like Mamoru so thats why he got screwed so much. Poor Mamo-chan. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:48 pm

I felt as though Mamoru got screwed over big time through the anime. In the third and fourth season, he was so incredibly adorable and romantic. Even when Usagi was the one who messed up, he tried to apologize anyway.

On her birthday, even though he didn't know her birthday, he went and got her the shoes she wanted. After the whole fight scene, he apologized that the present he got her was gone.

In the fourth season, when PallaPalla made her Dentist house, Usagi was checking out the male dentist and got jealous. When the female dentist came in, he got gaga over her too and she got jealous. During that time, Mamoru was thinking on how to apologize to her the whole time. That was never a thought to Usagi during that time. Her jealousy was really annoying in the series.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:52 pm

Omg, I agree. She was unnecessarily jealous. Granted, I think the exageration of it probably was to lead to humor...but it got annoying at times. Though the episode in Super where she is jealous of him staying at Rei's is rather hilarious. XD

Mamo was really awesome in the anime, but it was toned down so much in comparison to how their relationship is shown in the manga, its really disappointing. But moments like the ones you pointed out are always so nice.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru   Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:02 am

I know it was for humor, but I don't think jealousy is all that cute in general. It really made her look bad. Of course, it confused me why in one of the episodes of Sailor Moon with Mamoru and his college peer that ChibiUsa was really scared that Mamoru would leave Usagi for her, yet Usagi was not scared or jealous of losing him at all. Yet, in every other episode, she is ready to punch her own friends in the face for even having a discussion with him and this woman actually has a crush on him.

I will admit that I have sadly not read the mangas yet, but I know where to go to read them soon. <3

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[SPOILER] The Reconciliation of Usagi and Mamoru

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