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 Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime

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PostSubject: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   30th November 2012, 3:34 pm

Indeed she did, to my mind.

Go back and watch episode 44 (subbed), when we see the flashbacks of how the Silver Millennium fell. Metallia just shot Endymion and Serenity with a big blast of green energy, and Endymion is sucked into a... levitation vortex? I'm not entirely sure what that is. Serenity's on the ground, Endymion's flying away, and it's clear they're in the line of fire.

What does she do?

She gets up and flings herself to Endymion.

To her own death.

She HAD to have known that to choose to be with Endymion at all costs meant her own life was on the line. And she took that gamble and lost. I call that suicide in any event. A suicide mission, if you will, since the odds of them coming out of this were like, nil. I mean, look at Romeo and Juliet. Romeo thinks Juliet is dead, so he kills himself to be with her, and then she kills herself to be with him when she sees that he is dead. Similar case here.

I know a lot of people think that because they took out Serenity dying by her own hand that she didn't commit suicide, but I think there's a difference. Yes, she would have likely died anyway had she stayed where she was, but that would have been dying while protecting herself. She threw that away when she went to Endymion. She willfully made the decision to die as long as she could be with her lover.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   30th November 2012, 4:53 pm

I agree. When we rewatched those episodes during the final livestream, I was thinking the same thing. I think this is the anime's way of doing the manga's suicide scene and making it not quite as bloody and gruesome (this is being intended for like young children mind you).

Though I'm curious, at this point in airing the anime, was the manga at this point in its run? Cause that would determine if the scene was intentional or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   30th November 2012, 5:05 pm

I think its open to debate, she might not have meant to kill herself and ran forward in a fit of desperation but nonetheless she did result in her own death, I personally think that she was more desperate to get to Endymion whether in life or in death rather than thinking "he's dying. i must die".

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   30th November 2012, 7:06 pm

That episode aired on 2/13/1993. I'm not sure how often Naoko released Acts. 52 acts over a course of 5 years... They went to the moon and found this out in Act 10, so... *scribbles out some math* It's about one act every 6 weeks or so. (give or take. A bit more than a month per act) Probably Act 10 was released in December of 1992, so the animation house might have had the barest minimum of details in maybe September or October 1992, so they would have had time to draft and animate and record the episode. So I can see making it more family friendly that way. "She kills herself" can be open to a lot of interpretation in the hows and whys.

I also don't think she thought "He's going to die, I must die with him", but regardless, willingly and knowingly throwing yourself into a 1%-chance-of-surviving situation is a tad reckless; thinking how she had been alternating between terrified of an attack and weeping for the last few hours before the attack, I might slide her under a situational suicide category. Same thing in the manga, really, even though that was directly her fault.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   30th November 2012, 7:25 pm

I never really read the manga yet and I'll probably check out this episode in a bit...I would like to debate but can someone tell me the chapter of the manga this all goes down?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   30th November 2012, 7:30 pm

Acts 9-11 are when they talk about going and actually go and come back from the moon and learn about their past. I think this takes place primarily in Act 10.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   30th November 2012, 9:08 pm

Hmm... I'll go rewatch that episode. I'm sure you're right though. Maybe if anything, she was thinking "I must be with him, I must find some way to protect him/save him." So yeah, I don't think the "I must die, too" crossed her mind like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   2nd December 2012, 8:52 pm

I always got the impression it was more of a self-sacrifice rather than suicide. She was trying to save Endymion at the risk of her own life rather than killing herself out of a desire to die. It's like how Usagi killed Beryl in episode 46 even though she knew that fighting her with the Silver Crystal would have killed her. But one could argue there's little difference between sacrifice and suicide.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   2nd December 2012, 10:02 pm

I'm going to go off the dub, (which indicates it a lot clearer in a way-which is really weird when you think of it)

He tells her to go, run away and save herself. She basically said she wanted to be with him and 'throws' herself from the balcony to be with him. Making it very obvious to the audience she was fully aware that she knew she would probably die in doing this.

(of course I haven't seen it in a while.. so..)

Here's the vids: Japanese

Spoiler:
 


NA Dub:

Spoiler:
 

((random- I love classic voices!))

Clearly, in the original, it doesn't give much insight into whatever Serenity was thinking (vs. the Dub which actually does and I kinda liked that.). It could be she wasn't thinking about saving him or anything- she probably just wanted to be with him. maybe her own death didn't occur to her or probably matter.

Either way, I think it was pretty futile and suicidal thing she did. In the Dub, it seemed like she knew she would probably die (but that's just me.)
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   2nd December 2012, 10:05 pm

Personally i dont think Serenity WAS thinking. In that sort of scenario under that sort of pressure, and she's an impulsive person to boot. I personally think she rushed out to Endymion without regarding her own safety.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   2nd December 2012, 11:09 pm

I have to agree with most other posters.

She did commit a form of suicide I think but I don't think that's what she was thinking. As other have said she just wanted to be with Edymion and was fearing for his safety and well being. Same as any lover would do I think.

But on a side note as to which I like better?

I prefer the Manga just because over all it gives us a more in depth look at Silver verses the Anime. It's just an episode or two then nothing more when there is more to it then that.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   4th December 2012, 1:05 pm

I am not as convinced so much that it is a suicide as it is so obvious in the manga. In the manga Serenity is consumed with grief and willingly takes her own life because Endymion was torn from her. In the anime, to me it is more a situation of utter chaos and not having the calm of mind to consider all of the possibilities. Serenity loved Endymion and he was being taken from her and so she jumped into the "vortex" to be with him.

It is a mix for me. On one hand I believe that Serenity wanted to be with him and was willing to leave everything to be with him even if it meant death. This kind of thinking is not so much as "I want to kill myself" as "I want to be with this person despite anything." I think Serenity knew that she was going to die either way. The Kingdom was destroyed, her friends were most likely killed and if she was going to die she wanted it to be with Endymion.

So I do not really see it as an act of suicide but more of a sacrifice. Countless times all of the girls and Usagi have stayed with some one who was likely to die because they did not want to leave that person to perish. This is not always an act of suicide. Neo Queen Serenity and Endymion both stayed with Black Lady when she was swept up in the negative energy of the Dark Crystal in the R anime finale. They were not committing suicide but determined to save her or perish along with her because they refused to abandon her.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   4th December 2012, 1:54 pm

Sailor Jupiter wrote:
I am not as convinced so much that it is a suicide as it is so obvious in the manga. In the manga Serenity is consumed with grief and willingly takes her own life because Endymion was torn from her. In the anime, to me it is more a situation of utter chaos and not having the calm of mind to consider all of the possibilities. Serenity loved Endymion and he was being taken from her and so she jumped into the "vortex" to be with him.

It is a mix for me. On one hand I believe that Serenity wanted to be with him and was willing to leave everything to be with him even if it meant death. This kind of thinking is not so much as "I want to kill myself" as "I want to be with this person despite anything." I think Serenity knew that she was going to die either way. The Kingdom was destroyed, her friends were most likely killed and if she was going to die she wanted it to be with Endymion.

So I do not really see it as an act of suicide but more of a sacrifice. Countless times all of the girls and Usagi have stayed with some one who was likely to die because they did not want to leave that person to perish. This is not always an act of suicide. Neo Queen Serenity and Endymion both stayed with Black Lady when she was swept up in the negative energy of the Dark Crystal in the R anime finale. They were not committing suicide but determined to save her or perish along with her because they refused to abandon her.

Problem is, this is not Usagi. Usagi is somewhat a different person than Princess Serenity. We know that Usagi wouldn't commit suicide unless it is a sacrifice. However, the Anime doesn't give us any indication it's a sacrifice on her part. Other than she probably isn't thinking at all. So it's not entirely a sacrifice but not quite suicide.

Then again, I think the Anime is just isn't clear at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   4th December 2012, 3:45 pm

I don't really agree it as suicide. It seems more to me out of an act of desperation to save him somehow. It just ended in her own death. Think of it as someone in a housefire. A womqn's husband is in it and out of desperation to save him, she runs into the house to get him . The fire (vortex) was too much and they both fied in the process.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   4th December 2012, 4:18 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:
Sailor Jupiter wrote:
I am not as convinced so much that it is a suicide as it is so obvious in the manga. In the manga Serenity is consumed with grief and willingly takes her own life because Endymion was torn from her. In the anime, to me it is more a situation of utter chaos and not having the calm of mind to consider all of the possibilities. Serenity loved Endymion and he was being taken from her and so she jumped into the "vortex" to be with him.

It is a mix for me. On one hand I believe that Serenity wanted to be with him and was willing to leave everything to be with him even if it meant death. This kind of thinking is not so much as "I want to kill myself" as "I want to be with this person despite anything." I think Serenity knew that she was going to die either way. The Kingdom was destroyed, her friends were most likely killed and if she was going to die she wanted it to be with Endymion.

So I do not really see it as an act of suicide but more of a sacrifice. Countless times all of the girls and Usagi have stayed with some one who was likely to die because they did not want to leave that person to perish. This is not always an act of suicide. Neo Queen Serenity and Endymion both stayed with Black Lady when she was swept up in the negative energy of the Dark Crystal in the R anime finale. They were not committing suicide but determined to save her or perish along with her because they refused to abandon her.

Problem is, this is not Usagi. Usagi is somewhat a different person than Princess Serenity. We know that Usagi wouldn't commit suicide unless it is a sacrifice. However, the Anime doesn't give us any indication it's a sacrifice on her part. Other than she probably isn't thinking at all. So it's not entirely a sacrifice but not quite suicide.

Then again, I think the Anime is just isn't clear at all.

Ah, good point on Serenity and Usagi being different people. I wish we had a clearer picture of who Serenity was. To me, she seems way more like the best and worst of Usagi, without the grey areas she gained as Sailor Moon (such as the will to sacrifice herself for the greater good). Very cheerful and carefree (she's a princess, lives a sheltered life, has very few cares), but extremely prone to giving in to her emotions.

All of the flashbacks in this episode and the manga chapters show her as a very emotional girl, lots of tears, probably because she's never experienced this sort of personal threat and just doesn't know how to cope with it. Maturity-wise, she's probably less mature than Usagi was even before she was Sailor Moon. Usagi at least had a younger sibling, and that does give you some sense of responsibility to someone other than yourself. Serenity didn't have that. With that, she's selfish and wants what she wants: in this case, she wants Endymion and will do anything to be with him... including putting herself in the line of fire.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Serenity DID commit suicide in the anime   4th December 2012, 11:27 pm

@InitialA wrote:
@Ktenshi wrote:
Sailor Jupiter wrote:
I am not as convinced so much that it is a suicide as it is so obvious in the manga. In the manga Serenity is consumed with grief and willingly takes her own life because Endymion was torn from her. In the anime, to me it is more a situation of utter chaos and not having the calm of mind to consider all of the possibilities. Serenity loved Endymion and he was being taken from her and so she jumped into the "vortex" to be with him.

It is a mix for me. On one hand I believe that Serenity wanted to be with him and was willing to leave everything to be with him even if it meant death. This kind of thinking is not so much as "I want to kill myself" as "I want to be with this person despite anything." I think Serenity knew that she was going to die either way. The Kingdom was destroyed, her friends were most likely killed and if she was going to die she wanted it to be with Endymion.

So I do not really see it as an act of suicide but more of a sacrifice. Countless times all of the girls and Usagi have stayed with some one who was likely to die because they did not want to leave that person to perish. This is not always an act of suicide. Neo Queen Serenity and Endymion both stayed with Black Lady when she was swept up in the negative energy of the Dark Crystal in the R anime finale. They were not committing suicide but determined to save her or perish along with her because they refused to abandon her.

Problem is, this is not Usagi. Usagi is somewhat a different person than Princess Serenity. We know that Usagi wouldn't commit suicide unless it is a sacrifice. However, the Anime doesn't give us any indication it's a sacrifice on her part. Other than she probably isn't thinking at all. So it's not entirely a sacrifice but not quite suicide.

Then again, I think the Anime is just isn't clear at all.

Ah, good point on Serenity and Usagi being different people. I wish we had a clearer picture of who Serenity was. To me, she seems way more like the best and worst of Usagi, without the grey areas she gained as Sailor Moon (such as the will to sacrifice herself for the greater good). Very cheerful and carefree (she's a princess, lives a sheltered life, has very few cares), but extremely prone to giving in to her emotions.

All of the flashbacks in this episode and the manga chapters show her as a very emotional girl, lots of tears, probably because she's never experienced this sort of personal threat and just doesn't know how to cope with it. Maturity-wise, she's probably less mature than Usagi was even before she was Sailor Moon. Usagi at least had a younger sibling, and that does give you some sense of responsibility to someone other than yourself. Serenity didn't have that. With that, she's selfish and wants what she wants: in this case, she wants Endymion and will do anything to be with him... including putting herself in the line of fire.


Pretty much my feelings there. I think, honestly, Serenity's far more of a naive and possibly spoiled princess in a way. On the moon, no one has ever died as far as we know. there has never been any sort of loss or sense of loss. No sickness, no ..well.. nothing. (Especially if you ignore the movies-which I do.)

Honestly, I'm not all surprised at her behavior really. I actually find it vaguely interesting in a way because she's sort of babied. A lot. So I imagine that the loss of Endymion, she probably have no idea how to handle, cope with it and would probably do only one thing which is to give into her need to be with him.

I don't remotely see how it was possible for her to save him either. Considering how much weight he has on him- if the guy is flying in the air, there is no possible way that she could've saved him the moment she tossed herself off the balcony after him.

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