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 Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super

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PostSubject: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 4:46 am

You can pull from any source on this.

I think Chalice-Super Sailor Moon is more powerful than Pegasus-Super Sailor Moon.

In the anime, when Sailor Moon upgrades with the Chalice, her bow is larger and her tails are longer. The colors in her skirt bleed together. She can blast away enemies with her own power and no assistance from anyone else.

Whereas when she's upgraded with Pegasus' power, she needs assistance at every turn. She can't attack without Pegasus' power, thus she relies on Chibimoon to call for him; she can't transform without Chibiusa nearby. Her bows are normal and the tails are only a little longer. Her skirt colors are stable (even if the animation showed them to be static in S, the transformation indicated they were supposed to bleed. SuperS transformation showed the colors were stable)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 5:05 am

I agree. I think when Sailor Moon powered up using the Holy Grail, she was using more of her own powers to become stronger, whereas in SuperS, she had to rely on power borrowed from Pegasus, so I always thought it was a kind of a downgraded kind of Super Sailor Moon when compared to the Super Sailor Moon we saw in S.


(Not to mention, I always thought Sailor Moon should have been able to become Super Sailor Moon whenever she wanted after she was able to transform into her Super self at the finale of S (where she did so with out the Grail))

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 5:12 am

I think in the finale she just drew on the powers of her Senshi, which wasn't stable. It's like when she was first transforming into Eternal Sailor Moon. She needed EVERYONE'S power, including Mamoru's, before she could transform completely and always. She only had eight Senshi to draw on in the S finale.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 1:30 pm

I actually disagree - IMO in both cases Sailor Moon relies on external source - she needs Holy Graal as she needs Pegasus.

And IIRC she always is weakened after using Grail.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 2:07 pm

Well Sailor Moon can directly transform into Super Sailor Moon with Pegasus Power in the anime without having to suffer extreme loss of energy so I would say she's more powerful than the Super Sailor Moon in S. Likely the costume was revised to make animation easier. It seems in the anime at least Pegasus Power is stronger than the power of the Holy Grail. Lets not forget that Pegasus power derives from the power of dreams and we all know that Usagi is full of them but then again the anime is more of a metaseries the continuity between the seasons is not something we're really supposed to overthink

Also they can transform on their on in SuperS, we just never see it on-screen, it happens off screen a few times

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 2:42 pm

(I'm going to talk about the manga there)
(Note that I know the Kaguya-hime side story doesn't really fits in canon, but I like to imagine it as between the thrid and fourth arcs.)

In the manga, Usagi with the grail could maintain her form as Super Sailor Moon as long as all eight sailor senshis were with her. When Usagi used it once Chibiusa was resurected, Chibiusa aquired her own.
After the infinity arc, the outers left Juuban to raise Baby Hotaru.
Usagi was however able to transform into Super Sailor Moon anyway because Haruka, Michiru and Setsuna briefly came back for Mako and Minako's birthdays a certain week in december. (Some months after the Infinity arc that took place around June, and some months before the Dream arc which started around April.)

In both those stories (Infinity arc + Lover of Kaguya), Usagi could transform into Super Sailor Moon and use "Rainbow Moon Heart Ache". (So could Chibi Moon)
At the very end of the Infinity arc, all the Inners and Outers evolve into super sailor senshis, thanks to -guess what? Usagi's grail. However, when you see both group fighting separatedly in the Kaguya-Hime side story, you can clearly see the senshis aren't in their super forms.

So my opinion is that the grails are one of the most powerfull artefacts in the serie that aren't sailor crystals. But for it to work, it needs all 8 girls using their powers.

Now, in act 1 of the dream arc, the girls couldn't use their grails (and for some reasons, couldn't even transform. And it wasn't only Usagi and Chibiusa. Even Ami, Mako, Rei and Minako couldn't) because the Outers were gone. But their will to save everyone "fused" the grails were their brooches, causing them to become Super Sailor Soldiers without any problems, but this is where my weird headcanon kicks in: To do so, the new Crisis Compacts are nothing but nerfed grails. hence Sailor Moon's costume being slightly different, and Moon Georgeous Meditation not kicking as much asses as Rainbow Moon Heart Ache. So Sailor Moon upgraded to a better than Cosmic-Sailor Moon level, but still lower than a Chalice-Sailor Moon one.

(now this is just my headcanon. Note that I only read the first two acts of the Dream arc)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 2:57 pm

Oh when it comes to the manga, I think agree with you Mayo, the Holy Grail is much more powerful than Pegasus. But for the anime I think Pegasus is stronger than the Grail but then again it gets updated in later chapters so perhaps Pegasus is stronger than the Holy Grail but not the stronger than the later Calice that appears in Stars. Considering the Grail DOES get updated in the manga, it must not have been as powerful as it could have been.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   8th December 2012, 3:20 pm

Manga wise for me- Pegasus power=stronger. I mean the weapons have -souls of their own.-. What other weapon in Sailor Moon in any version besides the manga that can claim that?

Also the source of the powers are interesting too in how they transform. Yeah they need the eight soilders- but guess who's also there to lend extra power? Tuxedo Kamen and Chibimoon.

Then you have the Kaildoescopes. Who bought them? Mamoru for both the girls. (Of course it could be a plot device but still it's pretty nice to think he has a hand in these things too.)

Anime wise-..I don't really know. Though the Pegasus power seems pretty weak to me since it requires Chibiusa to do something in order for Sailor Moon to defeat the enemy. It's sort of ..dare I say it? Lame after the Super arc where she just blasts them away with her scepter. Then not to mention, Chibiusa doesn't get a nice cool attack of her own.

Nope, even with Pegasus power, her attack is still regulated to "Doesn't this hurt? Tee hee hee." The one time she's ever used the Carillon to attack, it just shoots hearts (Like, you know, Pink Sugar Attack.)

I mean , it's underwhelming. Her attacks should've been pretty darn powerful at this point and should at least finish off a minion once in a while.

So in this, Chalice- Super more powerful.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 10:54 am

My thoughts are...

When it comes to Super Sailor Moon in the S season, I feel like that was more of a sneak peek as to what would be in the next season. Because the Super form wasn't her form for the season; the one where she combined her powers with Mamoru was the form for the season. She just got a power up towards the end. I mean, in Stars, you see Eternal Sailor Moon at the very beginning, when they're confronting Nehelenia once and for all, and you can sort of look at that part of Stars are more of...an extended SuperS ending. I know it was like filler, but I'm just using it as an example. Like a sneak peek at what was to come in Stars.

As for powerful...I want to say they're more the same, just the forms are acquired differently. And I feel like by the SuperS season, Usagi is strong enough to hold the Super form (probably because it's her transformation for the season). The whole thing with Pegasus...that was to spotlight Chibiusa and give her more prominence. That's why Usagi always needed assistance. If that weren't the case, Usagi would have been just fine and powerful, just like in S, but even more so. Remember, a lot of focus in SuperS is on Chibiusa for a change.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 11:27 am

For a change? It's been on her for R and for Super too. In fact, you could say she's had three seasons to develop and even then, if they wanted to give her more prominence, they should've upgraded her power skills as well.

She basically in SuperS is no more powerful than she was in Super. There could've been a ton of ways to showcase Chibiusa better and show that she's getting better at being a Senshi then just have her ring a metaphysical bell to call for a flying horse.

I actually kinda think she got the shaft on that there. I mean, let her power be better and weaken the creatures instead of just annoying them then Sailor moon 'kills/heals' it. (which is the basic formula for any Group battles the Inners (and eventually Outers) end up doing.).

It just feels..unbalanced power wise.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 12:17 pm

The focus was about, I feel, the relationship between Usagi and Mamoru more than it was about Chibiusa in R (and Chibiusa is a product of their love). In SuperS, she (Chibiusa) was basically given her own plot, as if it was about her; as if she were a powerful, beautiful young woman just like she wanted.

I disagree with the season being about Chibiusa in S. o_o she didn't appear for awhile in that season, number one. Number two, the season wasn't so much about her. However, I do feel like she was important in helping the plot along with her relationship with Hotaru. And even then, Chibiusa and Hotaru were not the central focus of the season. We had maybe 3 episodes that were focused on Chibiusa and Hotaru. And also, as a note, Hotaru and Chibiusa's relationship with her, didn't come in until basically the end of the season, so...

I think Chibiusa using a bell to call Pegasus was a good way to showcase her and help her develop along. o_o think about it. What if she could kill baddies just like Usagi right then and there? Then the show would have taken a definite huge shift and it really would have been about Chibiusa and Usagi would have taken the backseat. Chibiusa was given a passive power, Usagi still held the offensive power. Which, is how it should be. It's called Sailor Moon, not Sailor Chibi Moon. She needs to hold, even if a season definitely focused more on Chibiusa, more power and prominence.

And I still think, the Super form in SuperS, is more or less, one in the same with the Chalice, just Pegasus gives her that power permanently, until she becomes Eternal.

And Chibiusa, just like the other senshi, has had her power ups, too.




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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 1:06 pm

I really need to get the latest manga releases, it's been ages since I've read SuperS, so I can't comment on it.

It really bothers me that Chibiusa was constantly given a backseat role. I know she was just a "soldier-in-training", but once you have an upgrade like that, she should have been given more of an offensive power. Instead, she remained like Mercury was in the first season: a distraction until firepower could arive.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 1:10 pm

If you'd like, you can create a thread about Chibiusa's role and powers. I don't believe we have a thread on what people feel Chibiusa should be, what kind of powers she should have, what her role should be, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 2:47 pm

I think I feel that Chibiusa's power is supposed to be different. Its not so much about her not getting stronger rather than establishing there is different kind of strength than just physical. This is anime only, Pink Sugar Heart Attack is a perfectly capable attack. Alot of kids in Japan looove Chibiusa, and loooove Sailor Moon and are able to feel a rapport with Chibiusa, so how do you think they feel when the little girl who they can relate to is the one that Sailor Moon needs to help her? Look at the musicals, in the SuperS musical when Super Sailor Moon i killed off by Nehelenia and the Soldiers can't revive her, Sailor Mars asks the audience to help them, its that kind of feeling, the whole "I can be part of this too". This is further shown by the use of "Rashiku" Ikimasho as the second ending theme, its a song about being yourself, I guess the anime staff wanted little kids to feel like there's nothing wrong with being a little after seeing all these teenagers fight the battles and save the kids all the time. Lets not forget Chibiusa helped to summon the power of the Golden Crystal where Sailor Moon failed in the anime!

But I think thats a bit offtopic. I think Pegasus is stronger in the anime because thats the way the anime is set up but the Grail is stronger than Pegasus in the manga. In the musicals its the Grail because they both appear in SuperS and its the Grail that gives her the power to Eternal up for the first time.

I think there's a bit of "S is more mature and cooler and I like it better than SuperS" going on in this thread thats bringing up a bit of bias Wink

Also more likely

Dream Power > Talisman Power. This is Sailor Moon after all.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 3:00 pm

I like your response, Miki XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 3:09 pm

The Chalice appears in the manga to transform into Eternal Sailor Moon as well, if I remember correctly. And there's that weird rainbow-star thing that merges with the Tiare in the anime, the thing Chibi-Chibi gives her to use Silver Moon Crystal Power Kiss.

I think it gives her way more power than Pegasus, she just can't access it until she's strong enough to handle it. She can upgrade to Super with it, because that's all the higher she can handle for now, and in short bursts, but maybe once she masters the Super that Pegasus gives her, she can then tap into the full powers of it?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Chalice-Super vs. Pegasus-Super   9th December 2012, 3:20 pm

@InitialA wrote:
The Chalice appears in the manga to transform into Eternal Sailor Moon as well, if I remember correctly. And there's that weird rainbow-star thing that merges with the Tiare in the anime, the thing Chibi-Chibi gives her to use Silver Moon Crystal Power Kiss.

I think it gives her way more power than Pegasus, she just can't access it until she's strong enough to handle it. She can upgrade to Super with it, because that's all the higher she can handle for now, and in short bursts, but maybe once she masters the Super that Pegasus gives her, she can then tap into the full powers of it?

Yeah but she had to upgrade the Grail up with everyone's power in the manga first. I think its also important not to mix the anime and manga with this particular topic. Because the most powerful villain in Sailor Moon would technically be Death Vulcan, Lilith of Darkness, Astarte or Dark Cain since mixing continuity implies that they are the furthest villains along the timeline towards Crystal Tokyo. The thing in the anime that merges with the Tiare is almost definitely based off the new Holy Grail in the manga but since it has a different function and isn't explained we can't really assume they are one in the same, since the Golden Crystal in the manga and anime had very different origins in anime and manga.

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