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 [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?

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ChibiBoi
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PostSubject: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 3:28 pm

I was just watching episode 82 of Sailor Moon and I noticed some poor animations towards the end of the episode, particularly during the battle with the droid. It seemed all very cut-and-paste, the sequence was not smooth and had inconsistencies (placement of hands, etc.) not to mention they just cut and pasted the Sailor Planet attack from the episode where they defeat Calaveras and Petz!!

Did anyone else notice this? Here's a link to download the episode if you want to watch:
[VKLL] Sailor Moon R - 082 (10-bit H264 AAC) [98EF2D92].mp4

It's encoded in 10-bit H264 so you may have playback issues if you don't have proper codecs or the proper player though.
Was there an official explanation as to why this episode animation was weird? The dream sequence in the beginning of the episode was beautiful though!! And then it went weird... At first when I saw the dub version of the episode, I thought DiC was just cutting the episode and moving clips around because that's how they do. But I was disappointed to see it was actually the same in the original Japanese version. I don't think I noticed this as a child though.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 3:40 pm

Isn't this the recap episode? Nvm that's episode 89.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 3:47 pm

Japanese animators were, and will always be, lazy as heck.
In very recents animes I'm watching like Fairy Tail, they still use the old technique of stock footage for every single attacks. (though less than in a mahou shoujo but whatever) talking about recent magical girl series: Madoka Magica. The animators made a very well job and the graphic still is carefully re-worked with each incarnations of the serie. But they still love to reuse some frames here and there, and the whole "time travel" thing sure helped a lot on this point. (If it wasn't for a bit darker screentone, Homura VS Walpurgis in episode 1 and episode 10 would be the exact same thing.)

Even before Sailor Moon, in a serie that I love for exemple: Saint Seiya. They re-used same frames for attacks and poses on different backgrounds, sometimes it was painfully obvious.

Look carefully through the episodes of Sailor Moon. They often re-use frames from previous episodes (For exemple, in episode 200, civilian Usagi has her Crisis Compact instead of the Eternal Moon Article for some reasons)

All the attacks had stock footage. Why not Sailor Planet attack? (Though i do like the version of it they used against Kaorinite more)

Sailor Moon still makes it rather discret though. (when it's not stock)

About the recap episode: My opinions is that it was a way for the animators to get themselves a week-long vacations. You can't blame them, they did all of the serie in one shot. No hiatuses

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 3:50 pm

Quote :
Japanese animators were, and will always be, lazy as heck.

I'm not sure its "laziness" as much as it is time and financial problems. It saves a lot of time and money to reuse stock footage. There's so much to do and so little time, I reckon we need to cut them some slack.

It also might just be the episode's particular animation director's style

(in the case of episodes 2000 crisis compact. thats actually the eternal article. all the seasons for shots like that they simplify her brooch to make it easier, its not like anyones going to pay it hard attention, and where would they take the frame from anyway. In SuperS Usagi is not in her high school uniform, actually shes never in any kind of school uniform, so she wouldnt have the brooch in the middle of her ribbon)

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:00 pm

@Mayonnaise wrote:
Japanese animators were, and will always be, lazy as heck.
In very recents animes I'm watching like Fairy Tail, they still use the old technique of stock footage for every single attacks. (though less than in a mahou shoujo but whatever) talking about recent magical girl series: Madoka Magica. The animators made a very well job and the graphic still is carefully re-worked with each incarnations of the serie. But they still love to reuse some frames here and there, and the whole "time travel" thing sure helped a lot on this point. (If it wasn't for a bit darker screentone, Homura VS Walpurgis in episode 1 and episode 10 would be the exact same thing.)

Even before Sailor Moon, in a serie that I love for exemple: Saint Seiya. They re-used same frames for attacks and poses on different backgrounds, sometimes it was painfully obvious.

Look carefully through the episodes of Sailor Moon. They often re-use frames from previous episodes (For exemple, in episode 200, civilian Usagi has her Crisis Compact instead of the Eternal Moon Article for some reasons)

All the attacks had stock footage. Why not Sailor Planet attack? (Though i do like the version of it they used against Kaorinite more)

Sailor Moon still makes it rather discret though. (when it's not stock)

About the recap episode: My opinions is that it was a way for the animators to get themselves a week-long vacations. You can't blame them, they did all of the serie in one shot. No hiatuses
Well the thing with Sailor Planet Attack is I never thought of it as stock footage and this is the only time where they cut and pasted the animation from another episode for this attack. You can even see the girls are trapped in the black hole from the episode they took the footage from! That's my main concern. But the episode itself seemed a bit choppy, like I said while I was watching the dub, I swear DiC had messed with the footage, deleted little bits, added other bits here and there. And then it turns out that's how the animators made it :-/
To be honest the whole battle sequence of the episode does seem a bit lazy, or low budget, compared to even some of the other filler episodes of the series.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:06 pm

Obviously none of you have ever animated something before.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:12 pm

Small Lady wrote:
Obviously none of you have ever animated something before.
Well I'm not comparing it to my own personal capabilities of animation, I'm comparing it to the average episode of Sailor Moon. And I thought it was unusual because the opening dream sequence of the episode was beautifully done. I'm wondering if there were separate teams that worked on this episode

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:14 pm

or perhaps because it was a dream they chose to draw it in a slightly different style, thats what i would assume?

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:18 pm

@ChibiBoi wrote:
Small Lady wrote:
Obviously none of you have ever animated something before.
Well I'm not comparing it to my own personal capabilities of animation, I'm comparing it to the average episode of Sailor Moon. And I thought it was unusual because the opening dream sequence of the episode was beautifully done. I'm wondering if there were separate teams that worked on this episode

I didn't feel like getting into a long winded explanation of why sometimes animation looks s****y in shows, especially older ones like that. There were probably deadlines and what not and they were getting behind. Its much easier for a show like Sailor Moon (especially done in the hand drawn and painted cel animation style) to use stock footage in episodes rather than create new animations, unless of course there was budget and time allotted. From what I understand, in Japan, animators are worked to like the bare bones, so it doesn't surprise me that there are episodes where sequences are shoddy or use stock footage.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:24 pm

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
or perhaps because it was a dream they chose to draw it in a slightly different style, thats what i would assume?
It reminded me a bit in Sailor Moon S, where the inner senshi are floating around in the sky half-dead since they used up all their energy setting up that barrier

Small Lady wrote:

I didn't feel like getting into a long winded explanation of why sometimes animation looks s****y in shows, especially older ones like that. There were probably deadlines and what not and they were getting behind. Its much easier for a show like Sailor Moon (especially done in the hand drawn and painted cel animation style) to use stock footage in episodes rather than create new animations, unless of course there was budget and time allotted. From what I understand, in Japan, animators are worked to like the bare bones, so it doesn't surprise me that there are episodes where sequences are shoddy or use stock footage.
A deadline may help to explain why the first half of the episode was pretty good like a regular episode, and then as the episode progressed, it got worse.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:29 pm

Truthfully, the average epsiode of Sailor moon is not always done well or even beautifully. (Seriously, some of the motions in Sailor moon are also kind of jerky and a little weird.).

But I'm gonna be with Houyo on this because it's a style. The animators aren't lazy. They're working from stills. Basically- you have a bunch of people copying one person's style (usually the model sheets.). Whoever was the head Animation director - or lead, (or rather a bunch of them.) usually make the key frame poses and everyone else fills in the gaps between motions and then you have people that color it and so on.

Not everyone is going to get everything perfect.

Furthering that, they're on a schedule, they have to get it out and done quickly to meet this deadline. So yeah, they're gonna take shortcuts. Heck, I took shortcuts before even on storyboarding (Because it's time consuming otherwise). It just makes more sense to reuse old poses from other things.

And this isn't new. Even Walt Disney did this with some of their creations (Pointing out Snow White with the animals helping. They repeat the same tasks in the background over and over again. The animators didn't draw them over and over with the same tasks, they simply just ran the same stills but changed the foreground.).

So, yeah.

Also, remember- they probably could've switched artists on this project. People come and go- especially when there's either better pay else where
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 4:44 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:
Truthfully, the average epsiode of Sailor moon is not always done well or even beautifully. (Seriously, some of the motions in Sailor moon are also kind of jerky and a little weird.).

But I'm gonna be with Houyo on this because it's a style. The animators aren't lazy. They're working from stills. Basically- you have a bunch of people copying one person's style (usually the model sheets.). Whoever was the head Animation director - or lead, (or rather a bunch of them.) usually make the key frame poses and everyone else fills in the gaps between motions and then you have people that color it and so on.

Not everyone is going to get everything perfect.

Furthering that, they're on a schedule, they have to get it out and done quickly to meet this deadline. So yeah, they're gonna take shortcuts. Heck, I took shortcuts before even on storyboarding (Because it's time consuming otherwise). It just makes more sense to reuse old poses from other things.

And this isn't new. Even Walt Disney did this with some of their creations (Pointing out Snow White with the animals helping. They repeat the same tasks in the background over and over again. The animators didn't draw them over and over with the same tasks, they simply just ran the same stills but changed the foreground.).

So, yeah.

Also, remember- they probably could've switched artists on this project. People come and go- especially when there's either better pay else where
It seems like the head animator for this episode was Hideyuki Motohashi, who also did episodes 77 and 80. I may have to check those episodes and see if I notice the same inconsistencies in animation as I did in this episode.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 5:27 pm

@ChibiBoi wrote:
@Ktenshi wrote:
Truthfully, the average epsiode of Sailor moon is not always done well or even beautifully. (Seriously, some of the motions in Sailor moon are also kind of jerky and a little weird.).

But I'm gonna be with Houyo on this because it's a style. The animators aren't lazy. They're working from stills. Basically- you have a bunch of people copying one person's style (usually the model sheets.). Whoever was the head Animation director - or lead, (or rather a bunch of them.) usually make the key frame poses and everyone else fills in the gaps between motions and then you have people that color it and so on.

Not everyone is going to get everything perfect.

Furthering that, they're on a schedule, they have to get it out and done quickly to meet this deadline. So yeah, they're gonna take shortcuts. Heck, I took shortcuts before even on storyboarding (Because it's time consuming otherwise). It just makes more sense to reuse old poses from other things.

And this isn't new. Even Walt Disney did this with some of their creations (Pointing out Snow White with the animals helping. They repeat the same tasks in the background over and over again. The animators didn't draw them over and over with the same tasks, they simply just ran the same stills but changed the foreground.).

So, yeah.

Also, remember- they probably could've switched artists on this project. People come and go- especially when there's either better pay else where
It seems like the head animator for this episode was Hideyuki Motohashi, who also did episodes 77 and 80. I may have to check those episodes and see if I notice the same inconsistencies in animation as I did in this episode.

Check any Sailor Moon epsiodes and you will find it.

Heck, SuperS and Stars are notorious for it! One hand, SuperS give so many very beautiful scenes, but there are a few (particularly the angle when Nehellenia frees herself from the Mirror. That looks even more childish and very rounded. But her facial features are pointed. ). Then Usagi's wings as Eternal Sailor Moon. Even as a simple edit- those wings are bothersome. They're never always sharp, usually look like cardboard cut outs. Not to mention her face in Stars isn't entirely consistent. (Why is her nose extra pointed? What is with her and Minako's hair? It can't decide between Blinding yellow and a shade of honey/goldish color.).

^ There are just inconsistencies that exist in all the shows epsiodes.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILER] Low budget on episode 82?   8th December 2012, 5:42 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:

Check any Sailor Moon epsiodes and you will find it.

Heck, SuperS and Stars are notorious for it! One hand, SuperS give so many very beautiful scenes, but there are a few (particularly the angle when Nehellenia frees herself from the Mirror. That looks even more childish and very rounded. But her facial features are pointed. ). Then Usagi's wings as Eternal Sailor Moon. Even as a simple edit- those wings are bothersome. They're never always sharp, usually look like cardboard cut outs. Not to mention her face in Stars isn't entirely consistent. (Why is her nose extra pointed? What is with her and Minako's hair? It can't decide between Blinding yellow and a shade of honey/goldish color.).

^ There are just inconsistencies that exist in all the shows epsiodes.
I'm not talking about differences in art style, I'm talking about how it seems like there's a lack of key frames in this episode, like I said before, seems like they used windows movie maker to cut and past duplicate scenes in there, this is why when I watched the dub earlier, I thought it was just DiC doing their cuts, but then I realized watching the sub that it's actually how it was animated :-/ watch the entire sequence hen the droid shows up and see if you notice it too

For example, they'll show a close up on the droid putting her hand to her face, then cut to a wide shot of her and chibiusa (the same one they used 2 minutes ago with the droid's hands by her side), then cut to a close up of her face and her hand doing something else, and cut again to the same wide shot. I don't notice things like this very often in they episodes.

Another example is how after the droid is defeated, they seemed to abruptly cut the scene of her turning into dust, and they don't show her gem falling to the ground, almost as if they didn't have time or money to animate it (originally I though DiC just cut it for time). This would make sense if they were cutting it close with the deadline of the episode

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