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 Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?

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PostSubject: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   9th December 2012, 3:38 pm

Cause I so wanna explore her a bit more.
First- I don't hate Chibiusa. She's not my favorite, but I don't hate her (likeIusedtoasakid.).
Second- I seriously, do not get Anime!Chibiusa.

Like mentioned in the other thread (Pegasus vs Chalice Power)- Chibiusa is a senshi in training. So that means she should be able, by the end of that training, to hold her own.

Since I have absolutely no problems with her role in the Manga Series, (Heck, I like her there the most. She has a point, she has better profound epiphanies, she actually has power.). Lets focus on the ANIME aspect of her.


Even though she's supposed to be a supporting member with The senshi Team, I always thought of her as a bit of a tag-a-long. Not entirely necessary for the plot to unfold. Granted in Super, it was cute. It actually worked but only once. After that, I didn't see much sense in her SuperS. She could've been replaced by any member of the cast. No, really, she could've been. Sailor Moon wouldn't have needed her to call down Pegasus, and honestly, I don't feel anything would be entirely lost aside from the who "Aw cute little love story of a girl and a..horse. preist."


Not to mention her power. In comparison to her other counterparts- Anime Chibiusa is pretty weak. I mean, this girl has control over her own personal Silver Crystal (Wait, does she even have a Silver crystal in the anime after R?) and she has the purest of hearts, like ever (But not the main character who's known to be the purest-all loving-person in the galaxy. ..Right.) And to top it off in SuperS, she's the one holding the Golden Dream Mirror everyone's looking for.

Then why do her attacks just fall flat? She gets upgrades, but her powers don't upgrade. She gets new weapons, but her attacks don't actually do much if anything at all. This girl is supposed to be the Child of Mega Power Of LOVE. Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen. Both who are powerful in their own rights in different ways. She should be at least be able to really do something impressive.

Even her R version was more effective at doing more than annoying the minion of the day. She used her Luna P (Probably the most useful thing in her arsenal. Not to mention she does use it against the wrong people most of the time) which could basically do anything she wanted it to do.

But unlike the Manga counterpart, it just fades out in the background, though it's clear that it still exists and didn't become her weapon at all.

If she's supposed to be different somehow, then why does she seem like a more ineffectual Tux? Why hasn't anyone of these girls (anime wise) ever actually train her? She hangs out with three martial arts experts/students: Makoto, Mamoru, and Haruka. With the exception of Haruka, she should've learned something from the former two. (but that point is probably nitpicking at more- Plotholes that were never looked at.)


(And yeah I thought about some of these for a while. Excuse the occasional sarcasm. <<; )

Like I said, I don't hate her, but I don't see her point, Anime Wise, in the show after Super.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   9th December 2012, 8:24 pm

Well again shes only in-training during S, in SuperS she's a full soldier. She's completely capable on her own, the anime just doesn't show this till the final "end arc" of SuperS where she tries to save Pegasus from the flames. The most obvious reason for moving Usagi out into a big-sister role and promoting Chibiusa would be to appeal to the younger crowd, which is the majority of the audience. Japanese Chibiusa is much much much popular than American Rini. Usagi after the first three arcs had pretty much reached past her point of development because of the limitations of the anime. She's too competent as a Soldier in other words because they need to stretch it out for 30 or so weeks, focusing on her constantly would have probably been a bit difficult to write, instead it makes more sense to bring in the next Sailor Moon, Chibiusa who had been struggling to find her own voice for the last two series. In Stars its fine, Usagi is faced with the loss of Mamoru, a new struggle and that takes up most of her time. There is no real change in SuperS for Usagi to have to deal with.

Her powers are supposed to be "cute" because she's a cute character. She provides a bit of comic relief, though I think this is unnecessary in SuperS, I'm not sure why "Moon Gorgeous Meditation" and "Twinkle Yell" are thought of as weak, doesn't the fact that they need to be powered up by Pegasus to work show just how powerful they are? Chibiusa is not an attacker, she doesn't have to be, in any battle team you always need a supporter role, right?

Chibiusa's weaknesses and vulnerability are probably supposed to resonate with the insecurities of the watchers at home, making her a necessary support the most powerful Soldier of Love and Justice is a good way to bring the audience into the show, I feel. It might be going over our heads because we're older and relate better to the older characters. Effectively SuperS is less about fighting than other series, it is more about the development of a little girl as she learns all about dreams, love, friendship, kindness and other various virtues. Each season of the anime has its different aspects to focus on, in between the battle heavy S and Stars, it might just seem SuperS is a bit odd, but I like it personally better this way. SuperS doesn't take its battles serious most of the time, that's why 90% of lemures border on ridiculous, and the season never really goes near having the girls lose a fight until the last arc, but I don't think it wanted to, I really felt it was more about the characterisation of Chibiusa as a girl, not as Sailor Chibimoon.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   9th December 2012, 9:35 pm

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Well again shes only in-training during S, in SuperS she's a full soldier. She's completely capable on her own, the anime just doesn't show this till the final "end arc" of SuperS where she tries to save Pegasus from the flames.

That doesn't prove much of anything other then she ran heedlessly into the flames. That's not an example of her being a full soldier but her as a little girl seeing her friend surrounded by flames. I could compare it to Princess Serenity's jump off a balcony reaction. She has no thought of her own safety only to help him. That doesn't prove she's a full fledge soldier, either. Can also compare this same scene with her jumping in front of an on-coming attack from the Outers in the Super season to protect Hotaru. And again, another similar one would be Sailor Moon and Mamoru jumping in front of each other whenever danger happened and another can also be Naru jumping in front of Nephrite in Classic.

Because by that logic, Naru should be a seasoned Soldier as well as Umino...


Quote :


The most obvious reason for moving Usagi out into a big-sister role and promoting Chibiusa would be to appeal to the younger crowd, which is the majority of the audience. Japanese Chibiusa is much much much popular than American Rini. Usagi after the first three arcs had pretty much reached past her point of development because of the limitations of the anime. She's too competent as a Soldier in other words because they need to stretch it out for 30 or so weeks, focusing on her constantly would have probably been a bit difficult to write, instead it makes more sense to bring in the next Sailor Moon, Chibiusa who had been struggling to find her own voice for the last two series. In Stars its fine, Usagi is faced with the loss of Mamoru, a new struggle and that takes up most of her time. There is no real change in SuperS for Usagi to have to deal with.

Alright, I can buy that the kids are supposed to connect with her- but what about just story wise? Minus the audience, what substance does she bring? The season before, I thought she was quite vocal there and even the one before when she first appeared. To be honest, if I had to choose an incarnation of Chibiusa, it would be her first appearance. Yeah, she's completely bratty (I even found her annoying in the Sub version too.) but I though she had more fire and determination than in the following appearances she made. And speaking of Usagi, watching her in SuperS was kind of painful because she doesn't change. They could've written her or even written Mamoru with problems, there are several different ways they could've made another obstacle for her. Maybe her dreams are haunted? Maybe she'll keep things bottled up to protect the group. They could've even brought back the Outers and expanded -their- lives too, especially given with what little is known about them.

Quote :


Her powers are supposed to be "cute" because she's a cute character. She provides a bit of comic relief, though I think this is unnecessary in SuperS, I'm not sure why "Moon Gorgeous Meditation" and "Twinkle Yell" are thought of as weak, doesn't the fact that they need to be powered up by Pegasus to work show just how powerful they are? Chibiusa is not an attacker, she doesn't have to be, in any battle team you always need a supporter role, right?

Even cute powers in other series that came along around the similar timeline has more impact and still remain cute. The only reasons why those two things are considered weak because they DO have to rely on pegasus. I mean, we've had Usagi and the Team (and even Chibiusa) who didn't need to call someone else to energize their weapons to get them out of scrapes. Usagi had Tux and the team for that. Chibiusa had her own quick thinking (In R at least). To.. well.. "Hey, call your horse friend to help us every time we need to kill something!" "Ok!"

Which is why a lot of people consider it a step back. Because basically if Moon or Chibimoon got knocked out or was gone for some reason, how would they kill off the monster of the day? What would Moon do without Chibi to kill the monster she's normally able to do on her own or with her team? That reliance bothers people who're used to seeing them function independently.

Quote :

Chibiusa's weaknesses and vulnerability are probably supposed to resonate with the insecurities of the watchers at home, making her a necessary support the most powerful Soldier of Love and Justice is a good way to bring the audience into the show, I feel. It might be going over our heads because we're older and relate better to the older characters. Effectively SuperS is less about fighting than other series, it is more about the development of a little girl as she learns all about dreams, love, friendship, kindness and other various virtues. Each season of the anime has its different aspects to focus on, in between the battle heavy S and Stars, it might just seem SuperS is a bit odd, but I like it personally better this way. SuperS doesn't take its battles serious most of the time, that's why 90% of lemures border on ridiculous, and the season never really goes near having the girls lose a fight until the last arc, but I don't think it wanted to, I really felt it was more about the characterisation of Chibiusa as a girl, not as Sailor Chibimoon.

Again, minus the audience.

Which she could've learned in the previous season with Hotaru who's her best friend who was kind to her and she was kind back which is the climax of the point when Saturn awakens because of her friendship to Hotaru. Even before then, you have other virtues she's already learned being repeated- again- in SuperS. (agruably in Super too ). Friendship: She was friends with Momoko to start with who even showed up for two epsiodes. Momoko sacrificed herself for Chibiusa- and it was shown beforehand that Momoko was the one that accepted Chibiusa for who she was and Chibiusa made a lot of friends in her class.(Friendship and Kindness rolled into one here).
She learns, about crushes too. The most prominent one I remember is the boy in her art class that she had a crush on but didn't see her that way. <- this is a lesson she had to learn (disappointment in Love.)

SuperS didn't have to be battle like, but it should've been more interesting than it was. It could've taken an entirely different direction with the Lemures and it could've played up the drama better.

Honestly, I think SuperS should've just been a spin-off of Sailor Moon that's devoted solely to Chibiusa and never have the other soldiers factor too much into it. I mean, you could still have Chibiusa the girl (which we were all introduced to and saw ) and have Chibiusa the Soldier to balance it.

I just felt that SuperS should've been a parallel Spin-off for her rather then being part of the main chain of Sailor Moon.

Though, I will admit, a lot of my disappointment comes from me reading the manga before the season was released over in the US. It's probably the most disappointing Season for me, even though I love the villains. (in both) and I thought they would not only give Mamoru his spotlight. (another disappointment) but still be able to have Chibiusa and her Helios romance. Considering they would have had more time and resources to expand on it. (never mind that at the time I didn't know when the shows came out with the epsiode either in time with the manga or not. Or the disagreement between Naoko and the director.<- so I've heard.).

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   10th December 2012, 1:22 am

I think its dangerous to argue about "what-ifs", the realm of speculation has absolutely nothing to do with canon Sailor Moon, saying "they could have" or "they may have" doesn't really change what is there. Lets not forget this is a metaseries. The perception of how this show works is very different from most five season shows in the West. Each of the five shows are five parts of one series, not one series broken into five parts, it is this tiny distinction that weakens the continuity of the series. (this is why the phrase "SuperS series" is more appropriate than "SuperS season") We are not supposed to think of each season as "the sequel" its more of a "continuation". There are times where they bring things back like in the Nehelenia arc, but this a rarity.

Quote :
Because by that logic, Naru should be a seasoned Soldier as well as Umino...

Considering Umino and Naru do not don the title of "Sailor Guardian/Soldier", I don't see how that's really an argument. Tuxedo Mask does alot of work battling evil, he's still not a Soldier. Chibiusa is a character who received the title "in-training" to learn from her experienced elders, following S she no longer seems to have this title. She does not get many opportunities to show her worth but she does later on, trying to save Pegasus is an example of this. Just because other people are also capable doesn't make the actions of Chibiusa obsolete. Naru and Umino do not don the Sailor Fuku, nor are they chosen on behalf of a Planetary Body, those are the trademarks of the Sailor Soldiers. You cannot dismiss Chibimoon's actions as a Soldier just because people who are not Soldiers have also done similar things.

Quote :
Alright, I can buy that the kids are supposed to connect with her- but what about just story wise? Minus the audience, what substance does she bring?

Storywise? Sailor Moon S and Sailor Moon SuperS have a large number of episodes dedicated mainly to characterize or also teach the characters new lessons and give them new perspectives. The first series and R do this to a much lesser extent but its still a present concept. If you're looking for in-depth continuous plot you may be watching the wrong anime. Try the live-action series if you want a more plot-based series. The substance, as with much Eastern work is the character development not the plot.

Quote :
The season before, I thought she was quite vocal there and even the one before when she first appeared. To be honest, if I had to choose an incarnation of Chibiusa, it would be her first appearance

In R, Chibiusa is much younger and immature, in S Chibiusa is not part of the main cast, she's in the Uranus~Neptune level of secondary characters. SuperS brings her to the main cast at last, so we're going to get a bit more out of her in it.

Quote :
And speaking of Usagi, watching her in SuperS was kind of painful because she doesn't change. They could've written her or even written Mamoru with problems, there are several different ways they could've made another obstacle for her. Maybe her dreams are haunted? Maybe she'll keep things bottled up to protect the group. They could've even brought back the Outers and expanded -their- lives too, especially given with what little is known about them.

But the thing is, they didn't present Usagi with a new problem, even in the manga, Usagi does not go through a great amount of strife. It seems rather than trying to develop Usagi further, they chose to develop a new character instead. I personally think this was the right choice, it was time for Usagi to mentor someone instead of having to be the one to learn constantly.

Quote :
ven cute powers in other series that came along around the similar timeline has more impact and still remain cute. The only reasons why those two things are considered weak because they DO have to rely on pegasus.

I honestly don't see what the big deal about using Pegasus Power is to everyone, its just an animation sequence, no different to the magical spinning Moon Spiral Heart Attack. Granted Usagi and Chibiusa get help, it doesn't really make them weak, it just means the villain is strong. You could even interpret this symbolically and think of Pegasus as a representation of pure dreams and Usagi and Chibiusa are channeling their own power of dreams through Pegasus to defeat the dream-eating enemy. For a season that uses the Dream concept so intensely, it seems fitting that the Guardian of Dreams comes to their aid. Usagi and Chibiusa use Moon Gorgeous Double Meditation in the SuperS Movie, though the continuity is not really the same, you could possibly argue that they can attack without Pegasus, they just do not choose to.

Quote :
Because basically if Moon or Chibimoon got knocked out or was gone for some reason, how would they kill off the monster of the day?

Entering the dangerous world of speculation, this is Sailor Moon, when that does happen. Something usually gets them out of it. Tuxedo Mask, one of the other Sailor Soldiers, Silver Crystal Power, a sudden new attack or weapon, Magic Hotaru Powers, Uranus/Neptune/Pluto show up without real reason, a villain has a change of heart, a villain becomes to cocky. Sailor Moon and Sailor Chibimoon are now the Double Moon team, is it such a crime that they work together as one? Isn't that one of the major points of Sailor Moon, people uniting their power together.

Quote :
Which she could've learned in the previous season with Hotaru who's her best friend who was kind to her and she was kind back which is the climax of the point when Saturn awakens because of her friendship to Hotaru. Even before then, you have other virtues she's already learned being repeated- again- in SuperS.

This might be the reason people dont like SuperS, each of the SuperS filler episodes are written for a different reason. Personally I feel they are much more substantial than Super's fillers and there's not as many Chibiusa episodes in SuperS as people credit, there's plenty of Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter. SuperS is more about encounters with different kind of dreams, dreams of romance, of a certain career path, pure dreams, broken dreams, dreams of happiness, dreams of keeping one's memory alive, having your own dreams, dreams of music, art, athletics, swordplay and so on.

Quote :
SuperS didn't have to be battle like, but it should've been more interesting than it was. It could've taken an entirely different direction with the Lemures and it could've played up the drama better.

I think its interesting, just to a certain type of people. Some people like the upbeat comedy of regular SuperS episodes, some don't, that's cool too. But it doesn't necessarily make it bad, personally I actually found S much more tedious than SuperS. Particularly as 75% of the S episodes have the exact same setup due to its time period, how many times did we see them studying for exams, then cutting to the Death Busters with alot of stock footage of machines and daimon egg production then cutting back to whoever was the focus of the episode walking home thinking and sighing before they meet someone, randomly encounter Haruka and with Michiru. Then the villain sets up the daimon, stuff happens, the daimon takes the crystal. Battle. Resolution, at least SuperS didn't happen during an exam period and allowed them to be in a wide number of locations doing different things.

Quote :
Considering they would have had more time and resources to expand on it. (never mind that at the time I didn't know when the shows came out with the epsiode either in time with the manga or not. Or the disagreement between Naoko and the director.<- so I've heard.).

The manga and anime happened simultaneously, there is little contact between them, this is why they vary so much. Naoko, like most mangaka has very very little, if any, say in the anime. In fact there was more of an agreement than the anime would get slightly ahead of the manga. It seems the anime received notes from Naoko for the basics, character design and so on and they went their separate ways. This explains some of the missing parts to the early Sailor Moon Musicals, the missing Witches 5 in S and the missing Amazoness Quartet in SuperS.

To me SuperS does not have any major issues not present in other seasons, but if people don't like it for what it is, I guess that's all right too. There's still the manga version and the musical version to enjoy! ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   10th December 2012, 8:31 am

This is a super tough question to answer (since I'm biased because Chibiusa is one my favorites Very Happy) but let me see if I can put my two cents in.

Overall, the main point of Chibiusa in R, S and SuperS IN THE ANIME, is for transitions. If we are to take away all of the opinions we have toward her as characters, that's all we would have left. Is that a bad thing? Nope. Actually, I think this makes her a great part of the show since it gives a different perspective on the series.

Rather than "just choosing someone" to be in Chibiusa's place, Chibiusa is given a spotlight because of how the plot unfolds. In R, she sets forth a challenge for all of the senshi to help a CHILD for the first time. Instead of getting Tokyo's citizens their energy back or running around chasing Shitennou in airports, Sailor Moon and the Inners have to protect this girl, all the while not knowing who she is, where she's from and how she knows about the Silver Crystal.

This is HUGE. I don't think several fans realize this. First off, think about when you first watched the show. You may had some predictions about her or just got annoyed by her, but she conveyed EMOTION. She made the transition from normal MoTD fights to actual protection of one person with a matter of a few episodes. All the more while, she tests Usagi and Mamoru's relationship in ways that it had never been before. NOT TO MENTION, she exposed one of the biggest plots in Sailor Moon itself.

Onto S! Now I have to admit, I thought Chibiusa in S when I first watched was PRETTY RANDOM, however as I got into it, she shows even more importance. Instead of focusing on what she can't do (like major attacks and such....because at the beginning, Usagi didn't even know what she was doing without Luna's help. Chibiusa had no one to help her out) lets focus on how she moves the plot along. Chibiusa coming to the festival as Sailor Chibi Moon was great because it came at a time where the plot was really slowing down in my opinion. The main reason for her to come back to the past was NOT for training as a sailor senshi. That was a major part of it, but the main reason was her to make integral friendships, like her mother did in her youth. SO AKA HOTARU TOMOE. No seriously, someone tell me a better way Hotaru could have been introduced into the series? Chibiusa was needed for that, especially because she is a) her first friend b) the reason why she turns into Mistress 9 and c) for her awakening. I think those are some major points into the importance of her character in S.

Now for the biggie: SUPERS. To be honest not a lot of people would agree with me when I say SuperS is my favorite season. But despite my bias, I totally believe that Chibiusa in this season is important. Once again, this is not for attack reasons. (also most of the show has nothing to do with the attacks and rescues of people, and has more to do with morality and the relationships made within the show) Chibusa could have gone home to Crystal Tokyo after Hotaru was reborn. However, I think they kept her not only for the plot between her and Pegasus, but also because there was still work to be done for her to become a full senshi. Her and Helios' relationship was cute on the surface, but much deeper than what most would believe. He saw her light when going through the darkness. This is the first time any character has seen the power within Chibiusa, and not Usagi. Once again, HUGE. This means she's growing in power and spirit, much like her mother did when she was awakened.

Now of course, I'll admit there is loads of filler in SuperS (which I love but ya know xD) and I truly wish that Chibiusa's powers would have been extended on. However, for what it's worth, Chibiusa is the reason why Pegasus is there in the first place, why the Dead Moon Circus landed in Tokyo, why Usagi and the Inners became Supers, and for the whole season. That's the main reason why the season is unpopular, not because Chibiusa isn't important, but because she's the main reason for the season.

So that was a LONG TWO CENTS. haha but yeah I just thought I would get my opinion out there. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   10th December 2012, 8:55 am

*eats popcorn*

This is really good, you guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   10th December 2012, 12:31 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:

Not to mention her power. In comparison to her other counterparts- Anime Chibiusa is pretty weak. I mean, this girl has control over her own personal Silver Crystal (Wait, does she even have a Silver crystal in the anime after R?) and she has the purest of hearts, like ever (But not the main character who's known to be the purest-all loving-person in the galaxy. ..Right.) And to top it off in SuperS, she's the one holding the Golden Dream Mirror everyone's looking for.

Then why do her attacks just fall flat? She gets upgrades, but her powers don't upgrade. She gets new weapons, but her attacks don't actually do much if anything at all. This girl is supposed to be the Child of Mega Power Of LOVE. Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen. Both who are powerful in their own rights in different ways. She should be at least be able to really do something impressive.

Anime was much less about power than manga. Pretty much everybody is weaker in anime. (And unlike in manga this was never her personal crystal, but "borrowed" from her mother - who is the only one with her crystal in anime). There was always more focus in anime on normal, everyday life with its lessons.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   10th December 2012, 12:38 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:

They could've written her or even written Mamoru with problems, there are several different ways they could've made another obstacle for her. Maybe her dreams are haunted? Maybe she'll keep things bottled up to protect the group. They could've even brought back the Outers and expanded -their- lives too, especially given with what little is known about them.


Usagi in SuperS is the one with the perfect life
Spoiler:
 
I'm for once glad they didn't come up with another obstacle to Usagi and Mamoru. It would IMo really look artificial and unnecessary.
And please, not the Outers...

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   10th December 2012, 1:01 pm

This is getting good. -joins Lady Tuxedo with popcorn-

Everyone is bringing up points I ever thought about before. Maybe over my break I'll re-watch Sailor Moon.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Anime-Chibiusa: The Why after Super?   10th December 2012, 1:39 pm

I'm not very good with debates...which is probably why I almost failed the class.
BUT! This is pretty interesting to read. *joins in with popcorn as well*

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