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 [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?

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Which surname did Usagi take after being married?
Chiba
45%
 45% [ 18 ]
Tsukino
55%
 55% [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 40
 

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PostSubject: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:13 pm

So I was having an interesting discussion about Usagi's surname after her wedding! It's never actually specified if she went with Chiba or kept Tsukino. There are a couple of arguments that could go for either way.

While I for one think Usagi is rather traditional, I see her initially wanting to take Mamoru's surname. However, being that this is coming together of Moon and Earth, I see her keeping Tsukino and Mamoru taking on the last name.  

A couple of things to think about to go with this point:  Mamoru has no other known family. So theres not much family for Usagi to go into... I imagine the Tsukino's welcome Mamoru with open arms and want him in their family, especially once they get to know him better.

The Moon Kingdom and Crystal Tokyo are very matriarchal as far as power goes. So Tsukino would be the most obvious point for this.

As Queen and King, they drop their civilian names for public appearances to protect the Tsukino family.  They still use their civillian name, but in privacy and away from the media (which even though its never brought up, I imagine the media is constantly all over them).



Anyway, thoughts! Debates! Go at it! I'm curious to see what y'all think. ^_^

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:20 pm

I see her taking his last name. Mostly because she doesn't seem to conform much to the Japanese conventions of life(being very PDA for one with Mamoru). Also, we don't know for certain if he has extended family or not. Much like Makoto, we don't know if there's more Chibas who simply didn't acknowledge him because they didn't want to take in an orphan or if he really doesn't have anyone.

But we would never know because even Chibiusa when introduced officially, doesn't have a last name either. So.. I like to think she would take his.

though I do love the idea of Tsukino-Chiba hyphen too.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:33 pm

I think there's good argument for both but there is just more reason for him to take her last name. The Moon Kingdom is a matriarch and that sort of gives Usagi more authority over Mamoru, even in the 30th Century, its clear that Neo Queen Serenity's power surpasses that of King Endymion's. That and Mamoru is orphaned, with no family for Usagi to be adopted into, it makes more sense for Mamoru to be adopted into Usagi's family not the other way around, on the other hand, one could argue that Mamoru would want to start his own lineage however marrying the most powerful woman on Earth would not be the way to do that. So it would seem there is far more reason for Mamoru to join the Tsukino Family. In Japan, lineage is very important when it comes to marriage, Mamoru does not have any, Usagi has a stronger one both as Usagi Tsukino and Princess Serenity. Also when Chibiusa arrives she seems to recognise the name "Usagi Tsukino" and connects Usagi Tsukino to the owner of the Silver Crystal. However, Chibiusa's name is "Usagi Small Lady Serenity" but that might just be her formal title. So personally I would go for Usagi and Mamoru Tsukino.

As they are Japanese, it is highly unlikely that they joined their names together.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:37 pm

But remember, Mamoru is also powerful in his own right. Without him, Usagi wouldn't be the Queen of the Earth too. She'd just be Queen of the moon.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:39 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:
But remember, Mamoru is also powerful in his own right. Without him, Usagi wouldn't be the Queen of the Earth too. She'd just be Queen of the moon.

Mamoru is powerful there's no doubt about that, but he's not on the same level as his wife. Queen of the Moon is still a higher title than King of the Earth in any case

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:44 pm

Helios says their powers are about even. His power just happens to be more subtle than hers. After all, she's had people help her realize her powers. Him? Not so much, and it's not his fault that it happened that way.

But again, why does everyone want to take over Earth. Why is Earth so special, if the Moon is better? I'd say he's pretty much on the same level.

I think, the matriachal thing is coincidental for Crystal Tokyo since, at the time they probably didn't know they would have a girl (Given if Chibiusa hadn't come to the past in that timeline).
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:50 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:
Helios says their powers are about even. His power just happens to be more subtle than hers. After all, she's had people help her realize her powers. Him? Not so much, and it's not his fault that it happened that way.

But again, why does everyone want to take over Earth. Why is Earth so special, if the Moon is better? I'd say he's pretty much on the same level.

I think, the matriachal thing is coincidental for Crystal Tokyo since, at the time they probably didn't know they would have a girl (Given if Chibiusa hadn't come to the past in that timeline).

Well because the Moon is dead and there's no one there because Beryl annihilated it, the power of the Moon lives in Usagi who is on Earth not the Moon. The Dead Moon Circus and Black Moon Clan arrived on Earth talking about taking out the White Moon not the Earth.

in the 30th Century, Neo Queen Serenity is in charge, she's the one one in the limelight who saves Crystal Tokyo... Let's not forget Usagi defeated all those villains while Mamoru supported her. Where exactly did Helios say that, I don't remember the manga exactly all I remember is that Mamoru spent the Dream arc pouting about how weak he was until he realised otherwise that he wasn't. Usagi is the most powerful star in the galaxy, we've seen this time and time again. King Endymion and Mamoru even tell Chibiusa of the invincible Sailor Moon, not the Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask combo.

The matriarch is not a coincidence, as Sailor Pluto said, the Queen will only ever have one daughter, Usagi and Mamoru already know they are having a girl anyway, having encountered Chibiusa already in the 20th century, they're hardly going to forget her.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 6:59 pm

Missing the point about chibiusa. They could've hardly known the first time around if they were going to have a girl unless they have an ultrasound. Pluto was STIILL at the Time Gate. Still hasn't interacted quite yet with them- therefore they wouldn't have known about the one child always girl rule yet. (Because I pretty much believe that the Chibiusa they interacted with is a different version of the girl they would eventually have and because time isn't linear and not set in stone. )

I mean really, before R, would you be able to say they would undoubtly have a little girl without knowing about the next season?

And Mamoru isn't pouting, he's cursed and sick during that entire arc because of the Dead Moon Circus that Attacked Elysion (Which is part of the Earth Kingdom) and imprisoned Helios's real body.

The one where you think he's 'pouting' is the R arc in the manga- which he has every good reason too.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 7:10 pm

Quote :
Missing the point about chibiusa. They could've hardly known the first time around if they were going to have a girl unless they have an ultrasound. Pluto was STIILL at the Time Gate. Still hasn't interacted quite yet with them

Crystal Tokyo is a highly advanced civilization, they'll have ultrasound in any case. This is a paradox I think, however Mamoru and Usagi are well acquainted with Pluto by the time of their wedding. She's there in the last panel at their wedding right next to Hotaru. The paradox with Chibiusa is up for dispute but the timeline of the manga shows Chibiusa bidding farewell to Usagi, this Usagi in this universe knows very well she will have Chibiusa as a child. Serenity and Endymion knew they would have a single daughter, you can argue about alternate universes and so on, but in the Sailor Moon series there is apparently a "true" future that Naoko has set up for us to assume what is going to happen in the future. There is nothing in the manga that suggests the timeline had deviated from what had been established in the previous arcs. Let's not forget about Queen Serenity and Luna knowledge of the Moon too. The Moon Matriarchy includes Queen Serenity too, who also only had a single daughter.

I read the Black Moon arc in the manga recently, Mamoru was worried of his lack of power, hence Tuxedo La Smoking Bomber but I'm pretty sure it came up in Yume again that he felt he couldn't help Sailor Moon properly, maybe this was because he was sick. But this is kind of getting of topic, my point is, Usagi, Sailor Moon and Serenity are more powerful people than Mamoru, Tuxedo Mask and Endymion in any given moment in any incarnation with the excusing of when Usagi first became Sailor Moon and had no idea what she was doing. The last line in the manga is even

"Sailor Moon, you surely are eternally immortal. Eternally the most beautiful shining star of all"

Again this is kind of off topic now.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 7:21 pm

I won't argue that Usagi isn't the most powerful person in the series- she's the main character- but I think people underestimate Mamoru and his power and importance to the series as well.

But back on topic:

Final conclusion would be that Usagi's last name is basically - it's whatever anyone wants it to be. Even with cultural thoughts and such aside, whatever her last name is - it's whatever we want it to be.

I like the idea of her becoming a Chiba because it utterly sounds like something she would do regardless of culture. She really does seem like a person that's a fan of the Western World and ideals on some level.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 7:27 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:
I won't argue that Usagi isn't the most powerful person in the series- she's the main character- but I think people underestimate Mamoru and his power and importance to the series as well.

But back on topic:

Final conclusion would be that Usagi's last name is basically - it's whatever anyone wants it to be. Even with cultural thoughts and such aside, whatever her last name is - it's whatever we want it to be.

I like the idea of her becoming a Chiba because it utterly sounds like something she would do regardless of culture. She really does seem like a person that's a fan of the Western World and ideals on some level.

I'm not denying anyone the chance of think of her as Usagi Chiba, I'm just giving evidence for whether Chiba or Tsukino is a stronger decision. I can see her following the traditional wife taking the husband's name (this is the norm in Japan too) but in the very specific circumstances around Mamoru and Usagi, I just can't see any substantial reason to take Chiba other than "she's a woman" that outweighs the reasons to take the Tsukino name.

All we know is that they will almost definitely have a last name since its part of Japanese law for husband and wife to have the same family name.

Quote :
She really does seem like a person that's a fan of the Western World and ideals on some level.

I don't really know how to argue for or against, we've never seen this discussed on any level. I think its a bit dangerous to make such a very large assumption as that. This is more a personal headcanon or speculation that we can't really use as evidence

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 7:37 pm

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
@Ktenshi wrote:
I won't argue that Usagi isn't the most powerful person in the series- she's the main character- but I think people underestimate Mamoru and his power and importance to the series as well.

But back on topic:

Final conclusion would be that Usagi's last name is basically - it's whatever anyone wants it to be. Even with cultural thoughts and such aside, whatever her last name is - it's whatever we want it to be.

I like the idea of her becoming a Chiba because it utterly sounds like something she would do regardless of culture. She really does seem like a person that's a fan of the Western World and ideals on some level.

I'm not denying anyone the chance of think of her as Usagi Chiba, I'm just giving evidence for whether Chiba or Tsukino is a stronger decision. I can see her following the traditional wife taking the husband's name (this is the norm in Japan too) but in the very specific circumstances around Mamoru and Usagi, I just can't see any substantial reason to take Chiba other than "she's a woman" that outweighs the reasons to take the Tsukino name.

All we know is that they will almost definitely have a last name since its part of Japanese law for husband and wife to have the same family name.

Quote :
She really does seem like a person that's a fan of the Western World and ideals on some level.

I don't really know how to argue for or against, we've never seen this discussed on any level. I think its a bit dangerous to make such a very large assumption as that. This is more a personal headcanon or speculation that we can't really use as evidence

Uh, that's not the reason I wanted her to take Mamoru's last name. I know realistically, Tsukino would be stronger but that doesn't mean I would want it. I choose Chiba because I like it. The meaning follows pretty well like that. Just saying that "Oh it's just because she's a woman." No. It's because I like the meaning better. And Honestly, if she DID choose Chiba, doesn't that make it a bit more meaningful? Like she willingly drops the Tsukino last name because she wants to start a new family with Mamoru and thus having a new identity. It doesn't have to make logistical sense.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 7:49 pm

I didn't say that was your reason, I said it was the only real reason I could see her taking the Chiba name, because traditionally the woman takes the man's name. I just don't really see the point in having a debate if there's going to be a lack of logic. Surely that's the point. Choosing things because you like the sound of it better is really more what headcanon is for... Please make it clear if you are "debating" or merely giving you personal headcanon.

Considering she will adopt the new identity of Neo Queen Serenity regardless of whether she was Usagi Chiba or Usagi Tsukino before that, and most of the major characters are aware of this fact, its unlikely that she will want to just adopt a "new identity" when she knows she'll be doing that anyway... I'm not sure what you really mean here, wouldn't it also be just as meaningful for Mamoru to cast away his past for Usagi. You seem to imply that Usagi loves Mamoru more than Mamoru loves Usagi if you're saying that...

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:26 pm

Honestly I dont think it matters which surname Usagi takes. She's going to become Queen of the world and her subjects won't know her true identity. I really don't think last names matter. As King or Queen or any type of royal position people know you by your first name not your last name.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:40 pm

o.o Guys, this is just what you think may have happened. We know it doesn't really MATTER which surname she takes, I just thought it was an interesting discussion thats not often talked about (at least I've rarely seen it).

Also, I think considering Sailor Moon is a pretty huge in the "FEMALE EMPOWERMENT" department, I think it would make sense for her to keep the Tsukino name and Mamoru to WANT to take that name. Sailor Moon is already breaking grounds with a heroine who saves the man in distress constantly and the man never feels like he is powerful enough to help her (like how many times pre-Sailor Moon did you really see this happening in stories..?)

I also don't like the "it's whatever anyone wants it to be" argument. Isn't that kind of a cope out? I mean, just using logical reasoning and bringing up various points to back up each side of the argument is the whole point of these debates.

Or do I just not understand debating anymore. :I?


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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:44 pm

How about this, muthas? Tsukino-Chiba.

There.

Edit: I know I'm gonna get it from Miki now... XD

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:48 pm

okay, I also believe that she chose the surname Chiba because she wanted to give Mamoru something he always wanted and needed: a family. his family. the one he's gonna create. that would be her proof of love, you know?
and the change of name doesn't mean change of identity.

and, with all this man has ever done for her, maybe she could just change her last name while marrying.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:50 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
How about this, muthas? Tsukino-Chiba.

There.

Edit: I know I'm gonna get it from Miki now... XD

I don't know if that happens often culturally in Japan where surnames are combined hyphenated. Though its a nice mix.

I could see that happening more if maybe they weren't both Japanese. I've heard of that happening when families of different cultures come together. ^_^

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:52 pm

Go away, Brit >.>

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:54 pm

Also something I just thought of, I think it depends on which version we are talking about. If this was the live action, then I actually feel Usagi would take on Chiba much more so than in the manga or anime.

I like the idea that Usagi would keep her last name but not be forceful about it either (unlike if you are familiar with Doctor Who, the Ponds).


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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:55 pm

Well, now that I actually read this thread, I like Miki's conclusions. They're pretty good. Plus, it's cute to think that Mamoru could have taken Tsukino on as his last name. All the feels there, too.

Why don't we all just take Miki's reasonings as law? I feel she's the next best thing to Naoko XD

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 8:56 pm

true, in my headcanon, when i think of usagi chiba, miyuu sawai pops in my mind more than the anime/manga

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 9:27 pm

Yeah, I think in PGSM Usagi would take Chiba as her last name seeing how the fighting is over for good and I'm guess Crystal Tokyo won't exist? Correct me if I'm wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   10th December 2012, 10:12 pm

Gosh MiMako I didn't even think about PGSM Usagi @_@ But I don't know, there its completely different. The dynamic is different in their relationship, the Moon Matriarchy is broken... She no longer have the authority over their relationship, though Mamoru is still orphaned is the only thing in the way here. But Kenji's presence is very very weak in PGSM, which raises Ikuko's power as a wife I want to say she is Usagi Chiba in PGSM but I'm having trouble finding a way to justify it.

In PGSM Usagi is much more dependent on Mamoru than she is in the manga or anime. Their relationship is much more typical and the Sailor Moon/Tuxedo Mask dynamic is removed so their relationship would become even more ordinary. So I think I she could easily become Usagi Chiba there even if Mamoru was orphaned and the Tsukino Family was headed by Ikuko not Kenji. One of the great themes of PGSM is "moving on from the Past" and I suppose taking Chiba would be a great way to do this!

As for myu... Usagi's name was changed to Anza Mochizuki. There is no debate on that.

(also brit's right, hyphenated names are not normal in Japan, I'm not even sure you can actually do it. 月野-地場 うさぎ is just bizarre.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   11th December 2012, 5:29 am

I could see Mamoru taking her name, since as far as we know he has no family, and the Tsukinos would probably be glad to put him on the family registration. (there's something with taxes there, my sensei said he and his family were still on his parents' registration, even though he had been living in the US for more than 20 years)

Personally, I see Usagi taking his name, she seems pretty traditional that way, and then once she becomes queen and thus the 'head' of the family, as Mamoru is King-consort, giving Chibiusa her surname. Maybe it's also just another name, like how some women give their children their maiden names as a middle name.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   11th December 2012, 11:57 am

In my head, when they ascended to rule Crystal Tokyo, they just simply become Serenity and Endymion. They don't associate by their reborn last names. At least that's what I've always believed.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   11th December 2012, 1:55 pm

Infel wrote:
In my head, when they ascended to rule Crystal Tokyo, they just simply become Serenity and Endymion. They don't associate by their reborn last names. At least that's what I've always believed.

Even if that's true there is apparently a time period in between their marriage and their ascension to the throne.

Also its important to note "traditional" in the West is not the same as in Japan. Though it is far more common to take the man's name its not considered "nontraditional" or "unconventional" to the take the woman's if there is reason for it, in this case there seems to be several reasons. Think of taking the man's name as the "default" rather than the "tradition" or "convention".

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   12th December 2012, 12:28 pm

I voted for Chiba. Usagi has a brother, who can carry the Tsukino surname.

For practical reason, Mamoru could have problems with recognizing his already published papers if he changed his surname.

Also, symbolically, IMO her taking surname Chiba would reflect that they were reborn this time on the same planet and both are of Earth.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   13th December 2012, 12:13 am

Thinking on it though Tsukino Mamoru is a great combination of Earth and Moon, which is what their marriage also symbolizes.

Also, either of them keeping their surnames is a reflection of this time period...regardless of which family they take. Its changing to Serenity and Endymion that are hints towards the past.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   13th December 2012, 12:32 pm

But wouldn't Tsukino Mamoru mean Protector of the Moon?

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