HomePortalFAQRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Which surname did Usagi take after being married?
Chiba
45%
 45% [ 18 ]
Tsukino
55%
 55% [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 40
 

AuthorMessage
Brit-chan
Senior Member
Small Lady Emeritus


Senior Member  Small Lady Emeritus

Title : Queen of the Cat Kingdom
Posts : 20313
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 29
Location : Lafayette, LA


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   19th December 2012, 7:27 pm

That's really rather off topic, but I think including Parallel Moon into the argument is mainly to provide a small amount of evidence towards Naoko actually wanting the girls to keep their own names.

However, since Parallel Moon is very AU, we can't really use it to try to explain Makoto's or the other girls last names because there is no indication in the SM series that these girls ever do marry or if they do, who their possible partner might be (Haruka and Michiru don't count lol). I think its more about the evidence of Naoko's thinking.

If that makes sense?

___________________________


Avie by Marsiepan|| Eternal Knight's Myufu <3

Back to top Go down
http://seaofserenity.net http://britchan.tumblr.com/ http://brit-chan.deviantart.com
Houyou no Senshi
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Posts : 4565
Join date : 2011-12-12

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   19th December 2012, 7:50 pm

Quote :
Why is it acceptable for Makoto to keep her last name if she's in the same boat as Mamoru if you want to include Parallel Moon as a source?

Good point but like I said "Parallel Sailor Moon" is not actually hard evidence for anything since its not canon connected to anything, I'm just saying its indicating that Naoko was probably not thinking about whatever her last name would become, or that she never really thought Usagi's name would become Chiba. I mean from a writing point of view, what is the point in coming up with four new last names that are going to appear once? Britchan's right it more just gives an idea on Naoko's own considerations of the situation rather than her actual story ideas.

Quote :
And there's no absolute way to know that either Makoto or Mamoru might have extended family somewhere or not. We're assuming they don't because they weren't claimed at any point we saw in their lives.

Considering the facts of their lives, we pretty much are led to assume they don't have any other family, you can beat around the issue saying "what ifs" but the fact remain, they are given no family background in any version of the series, there are no implications of anything even when Ami, Rei and Minako are given family backgrounds. We can't assume 100% they have no extended family, but we have to assume that they have no strong family ties at the very least.

~~ Offtopic on Mako and Mamo ~~~

Also you are skating over other issues regarding Mamoru and Usagi. They have very specific circumstances, Mamoru is shown to pretty much abandon the life before the car crash, going around trying to "discover who he is", Mamoru has little to no memories of his Earth parents, Mamoru discovers his past life, and embraces it. Makoto, however, has full memory of her parents, and loves and misses them, even due to it she is shown in PGSM at the very least, and implied through other versions that due to losing her parents she suffers from a few inner issues ranging from a desperation for acknowledgement or to prove her own strengt to an overwhelming sense of inferiority. That is a key difference. Family definitely had a bigger impact on Makoto. How is Mamoru having ties to a family he can't remember the same as Makoto who remembers her parents vividly, right down to baking cakes at 3 o'clock. I think you're oversimplifying here. There's much more than them just being orphans.

No one's asking you to change your headcanon. But this is a debate based on evidence and logic. There is a headcanons thread around if you want to put that there.

___________________________


Voluntarily Deactivated Account!
Back to top Go down
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   21st December 2012, 1:58 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
How is Mamoru having ties to a family he can't remember the same as Makoto who remembers her parents vividly, right down to baking cakes at 3 o'clock. I think you're oversimplifying here. There's much more than them just being orphans.

But looking from the opposite perspective, Mako would keep these memories regardless of changing surname. She could bake cakes at 3 o'clock even after becoming Makoto Asanuma. For Mamoru however changing surname is totally loosing connection to them. I can't see Usagi asking him that, given how affected she was by his past.

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
InitialA
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Herald of the New Age
Posts : 182
Join date : 2012-11-21
Age : 27
Location : Ohio


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   21st December 2012, 4:14 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
But looking from the opposite perspective, Mako would keep these memories regardless of changing surname. She could bake cakes at 3 o'clock even after becoming Makoto Asanuma. For Mamoru however changing surname is totally loosing connection to them. I can't see Usagi asking him that, given how affected she was by his past.

If he has so few memories, I don't see him having much of a connection to them anyway. I can see him bringing up the idea of changing his name for Usagi, and though she could protest along the same lines of losing his family connections, he'd probably say something to the effect of "You're my family. You always have been. And I want to reflect that in my name."

___________________________

I'm just this girl, you know? Who does some stuff. Sometimes.



Back to top Go down
http://twitter.com/initial_a2007 http://initiala.tumblr.com http://youtube.com/midnightarticuno
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   21st December 2012, 4:42 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:


@Moonlight Lady wrote:
- practical - Mamoru could have problems with having his papers recognized if he changed his surname.

That could be anyone in the world at that rate. Everyone has to go through a process and have adjustments made. So, that could include Mamoru

Actually, that is a reason most women in science do keep maiden surnames or have two surnames with hyphen. Keeping track of published works is a real issue and IMO the most practical argument to weight on their decision.

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   21st December 2012, 6:03 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

But that evidence is completed negated by the other side of the argument

"She is born on the Earth" thus Chiba is more appropriate is totally balanced and cancelled out with "She has the heritage of the Moon" and thus Tsukino is more appropriate. Both are completely valid reasoning and neither is stronger than the other so you have to take into consideration other aspects.

So the other aspect is the Mamoru side of things, which you keep forgetting.

And her Moon heritage was covered by her queen name, Serenity.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
No one said NQS is ruling alone either, they work together, its just the Queen has more of the power and control as her lineage is of females, regardless of being married, this is in-keeping with the pro-female messages in Sailor Moon. A matriarch does NOT have to rule alone. That is not the definition of the word. A family where the mother is in charge, even if she has a husband is a matriarch. A society where women make the decisions is a matriarch and Crystal Tokyo, where the Queen is in charge, since we know for sure that the bloodline of their royalty carries through the female is a matriarch.

Sorry, but it cannot be said that NQS isn't ruling alone and at the same time that she has the power and control, is in charge and makes decision. If it is the case, she is the lone ruler and husband is just a decoration, his "King" title is merely hononary and he can at most give support by advice, as any spouse. There is no third option.

And would Usagi Chiba be anti-female message?

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

Though Shingo would probably carry on the family name, this isn't really the point. Mamoru has no bloodline and has no reason to carry a family name.

Sorry, but everybody has bloodline, don't they? And why Shingo isn't really a point?

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Jupiter Rose
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : Who am I now in this world without her?
Posts : 5947
Join date : 2012-04-02
Age : 24
Location : Once Arizona, now Scotland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   21st December 2012, 7:34 am

Can I just ask you why you feel the need to "defend" Mamoru though? This has nothing to do with hate or belittling him or anything like that at all. It's just a topic
on who would have what surname. That's all. :/ It's supposed to be fun, not super super serious. We know you are a Mamoru defender, but I assure you, there is no negativity aimed at Mamoru in this thread.

With that being said, I still don't know if documentation is the strongest argument because a) Usagi would obviously have to go through the process too if she went with Chiba (and Japanese people do not hyphen names) and b) well, then no women (or men) in the world would change their surname after marriage. And I'm sure there are tons of people that change their last names once married, regardless of the daunting process.

Plus, they are royalty. They can get away with whatever they want, I'm sure. What they say is law.

Also, here's a thought since you said everybody has bloodline. What if Mamoru's parents were terrible criminals and evil people? We don't know who his parents were. If that were the case, I don't think he'd want to carry on the ne associated with them. Plus, I don't think he cares enough to carry on his bloodline.

___________________________

Graphics thanks to NQS, Bubbles, Gemma, Mars, & Diana
Crystal Gem Universe
Back to top Go down
Houyou no Senshi
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Posts : 4565
Join date : 2011-12-12

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   21st December 2012, 4:42 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

But that evidence is completed negated by the other side of the argument

"She is born on the Earth" thus Chiba is more appropriate is totally balanced and cancelled out with "She has the heritage of the Moon" and thus Tsukino is more appropriate. Both are completely valid reasoning and neither is stronger than the other so you have to take into consideration other aspects.

So the other aspect is the Mamoru side of things, which you keep forgetting.

And her Moon heritage was covered by her queen name, Serenity.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
No one said NQS is ruling alone either, they work together, its just the Queen has more of the power and control as her lineage is of females, regardless of being married, this is in-keeping with the pro-female messages in Sailor Moon. A matriarch does NOT have to rule alone. That is not the definition of the word. A family where the mother is in charge, even if she has a husband is a matriarch. A society where women make the decisions is a matriarch and Crystal Tokyo, where the Queen is in charge, since we know for sure that the bloodline of their royalty carries through the female is a matriarch.

Sorry, but it cannot be said that NQS isn't ruling alone and at the same time that she has the power and control, is in charge and makes decision. If it is the case, she is the lone ruler and husband is just a decoration, his "King" title is merely hononary and he can at most give support by advice, as any spouse. There is no third option.

And would Usagi Chiba be anti-female message?

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

Though Shingo would probably carry on the family name, this isn't really the point. Mamoru has no bloodline and has no reason to carry a family name.

Sorry, but everybody has bloodline, don't they? And why Shingo isn't really a point?

Yes she can, if Endymion tries to make a decision and she does not agree, she can go over his head, but the likelihood of this is slim. That's all. She is not ruling alone, they are ruling in partnership where she has more power. You are misunderstanding me despite how many times I've tried to explain. There is a middle ground between "even partnership" and "ruling alone". It is clear that's where they are, it is very clear and you seem to be the only one who believes that NQS and King Endymion are on equal fitting in their power. A King and Queen can rule together, the King can have more power, this has most often been the case throughout human history. However, in this case the Queen is shown to have the upper hand. A matriarch DOES NOT have to rule alone. This is not the definition of the word. The bloodline of their royalty goes through females. This is what affirms the female's power more than anything.

Who do the Outer Soldiers bow to in the Infinity arc, the future Queen.
Who does the entire Crystal Tokyo look up to as their saviour. Neo Queen Serenity.
Who grants the new Planet Powers onto the Sailor Soldiers. Neo Queen Serenity.
Who makes the decision to reawaken Pluto and send her to the past. Neo Queen Serenity.
Who sends the Sailor Quartet to save Sailor Moon. Neo Queen Serenity.

If you are going to deny that Neo Queen Serenity is not the leader of Crystal Tokyo, above Endymion. I really think you need to reread the manga or check out the Kaguya musicals, the anime does not make anything that clear because she's trapped in a big crystal in most of her appearances. You'll be far stretched to find a monarchy where its completely equal. Neo Queen Serenity and Endymion are also so likely to agree most of the time anyway so it wouldn't matter and they will have advisors and so on.

I personally never used the "symbolism" of Chiba/Tsukino in my argument. That was other people...

Shingo is beside the point because I never used the idea that "Kenji already can carry on his name" as an argument for Chiba. Nor had my argument had anything to do with carrying on Kenji's line (we can assume its Kenji's because hes the head of the household as shown by their family plate outside their home)

It is not anti-female it is just not pro-female. There's a key difference.

Everybody has a bloodline however there is a difference between Makoto's and Mamoru's.

Makoto REMEMBERS hers, she can choose however important it is to her. We don't know for sure and we can't say either way for her. I don't see how making assumptions on Makoto gives any evidence to Mamoru.
Mamoru DOES NOT REMEMBER his, he has been shown in the series to completely disregard his Earth bloodline for the sake of his past. This is all he does in the first arc. Who am i? Who am I? Even though the name "Chiba" would be a place to look, he doesn't go after the human side instead he goes searching for something else. He has selected a different life than his human one. That's the difference.

Okay I'm pretty much done, the fun has really been sucked out of this thread for me. Cannot handle the oversimplifying or overthinking.



Everything must be in moderation

~~~

But in summary: (this is directed at all on the Chiba side)

I think its pretty hard to deny that Neo Queen Serenity is the World's Leader in the 21st Century, nonetheless there is still a period of time between her marriage to Mamoru and her coronation. For me at least, there is more reasoning for Tsukino, however if you want to imagine that Mamoru and Usagi are going to follow Western traditions, then go right ahead and think she'll become a Chiba. But keep in mind, they are Japanese, she may be blonde. But Ami has blue hair and Chibiusa has pink. We have no indication that Usagi is a Americanophile or anything of the sort. But regardless, they are so more likely going to follow the customs and reasoning from their own culture. But if you do not want to accept my opinion. Then I guess my conclusion will have to be:


___________________________


Voluntarily Deactivated Account!
Back to top Go down
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   22nd December 2012, 1:42 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Can I just ask you why you feel the need to "defend" Mamoru though? This has nothing to do with hate or belittling him or anything like that at all. It's just a topic
on who would have what surname. That's all. :/ It's supposed to be fun, not super super serious. We know you are a Mamoru defender, but I assure you, there is no negativity aimed at Mamoru in this thread.

Well, there may not be negativity, still I see that his perspective is generally ignored.


Lady Tuxedo wrote:
With that being said, I still don't know if documentation is the strongest argument because a) Usagi would obviously have to go through the process too if she went with Chiba (and Japanese people do not hyphen names) and b) well, then no women (or men) in the world would change their surname after marriage. And I'm sure there are tons of people that change their last names once married, regardless of the daunting process.

Actually, I meant the problem with his published papers - nobody would know that they were written also by Mamoru Chiba if he started being Mamoru Tsukino. This would seriously hurt his career.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Also, here's a thought since you said everybody has bloodline. What if Mamoru's parents were terrible criminals and evil people? We don't know who his parents were. If that were the case, I don't think he'd want to carry on the ne associated with them. Plus, I don't think he cares enough to carry on his bloodline.

The point is that he will never know how his parents were, never. And IMO that's pretty sad. I find it difficult not to feel for him.

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Brit-chan
Senior Member
Small Lady Emeritus


Senior Member  Small Lady Emeritus

Title : Queen of the Cat Kingdom
Posts : 20313
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 29
Location : Lafayette, LA


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   22nd December 2012, 4:43 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Lady Tuxedo wrote:
With that being said, I still don't know if documentation is the strongest argument because a) Usagi would obviously have to go through the process too if she went with Chiba (and Japanese people do not hyphen names) and b) well, then no women (or men) in the world would change their surname after marriage. And I'm sure there are tons of people that change their last names once married, regardless of the daunting process.

Actually, I meant the problem with his published papers - nobody would know that they were written also by Mamoru Chiba if he started being Mamoru Tsukino. This would seriously hurt his career.


While that is an interesting point, it doesn't seem to matter what his career in the future is simply because by the end of it all, he is called "Endymion" rather than Mamoru Chiba or Mamoru Tsukino. So it would mess up him published regardless of taking Tsukino or not. Also I know many professional women (veterinarians, doctors, published writers) that still use their maiden name for things. Example would be a vet I know very well whom I've always called Dr. Liles, but that is actually her maiden name. I think its a common practice.

___________________________


Avie by Marsiepan|| Eternal Knight's Myufu <3

Back to top Go down
http://seaofserenity.net http://britchan.tumblr.com/ http://brit-chan.deviantart.com
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   25th December 2012, 1:07 pm

Yes, this is common practice, when one can legally keep two surnames and use them alternately or both at the same time. But here it's not possible -it's either or situation.

And yes, he will be Endymion in future, but this will be years after wedding and unlikely to influence their decision on common surname.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:


Yes she can, if Endymion tries to make a decision and she does not agree, she can go over his head, but the likelihood of this is slim. That's all. She is not ruling alone, they are ruling in partnership where she has more power. You are misunderstanding me despite how many times I've tried to explain. There is a middle ground between "even partnership" and "ruling alone". It is clear that's where they are, it is very clear and you seem to be the only one who believes that NQS and King Endymion are on equal fitting in their power. A King and Queen can rule together, the King can have more power, this has most often been the case throughout human history. However, in this case the Queen is shown to have the upper hand. A matriarch DOES NOT have to rule alone. This is not the definition of the word. The bloodline of their royalty goes through females. This is what affirms the female's power more than anything.

Who do the Outer Soldiers bow to in the Infinity arc, the future Queen.
Who does the entire Crystal Tokyo look up to as their saviour. Neo Queen Serenity.
Who grants the new Planet Powers onto the Sailor Soldiers. Neo Queen Serenity.
Who makes the decision to reawaken Pluto and send her to the past. Neo Queen Serenity.
Who sends the Sailor Quartet to save Sailor Moon. Neo Queen Serenity.

If you are going to deny that Neo Queen Serenity is not the leader of Crystal Tokyo, above Endymion. I really think you need to reread the manga or check out the Kaguya musicals, the anime does not make anything that clear because she's trapped in a big crystal in most of her appearances. You'll be far stretched to find a monarchy where its completely equal. Neo Queen Serenity and Endymion are also so likely to agree most of the time anyway so it wouldn't matter and they will have advisors and so on.

You seem to confuse Usagi's magical power with her political power - most monarchs don't possess any magical powers (also most of the mentioned events don't happen in anime).

No one can deny that neo Queen Serenity is the saviour, but we know little how the ruling is organised in 30th century. We don't know what political institutions exist - is there parliament, government, ministers. Nowadays monarchs don't have majority of political power.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Mamoru DOES NOT REMEMBER his, he has been shown in the series to completely disregard his Earth bloodline for the sake of his past. This is all he does in the first arc. Who am i? Who am I? Even though the name "Chiba" would be a place to look, he doesn't go after the human side instead he goes searching for something else. He has selected a different life than his human one.

I was rather of the impression that Mamoru believed that this search would bring him back memories of early childhood, especially parents.


@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
For me at least, there is more reasoning for Tsukino, however if you want to imagine that Mamoru and Usagi are going to follow Western traditions, then go right ahead and think she'll become a Chiba. But keep in mind, they are Japanese, she may be blonde.

According to Japanese traditions both options are likely, aren't they?

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Houyou no Senshi
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Posts : 4565
Join date : 2011-12-12

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   26th December 2012, 5:29 pm

Okay seriously, I've made all my points that I've thought and you just don't seem to be listening and I'm repeating myself over and over again. The problem here is that you don't seem to actually cite evidence, you just say things or else say "I think that" "I got the impression that" "It seems that" "There's an idea that" rather than actually giving an example. I gave you several example that show Neo Queen Serenity's position as Ruler of Crystal Tokyo but you have yet to show any for Endymion other, in a debate, you must justify things.

Quote :
You seem to confuse Usagi's magical power with her political power - most monarchs don't possess any magical powers (also most of the mentioned events don't happen in anime).

Please just rewatch the series, she IS the ruler of Crystal Tokyo. She has that political power BECAUSE of her magic power. This is not the real world. In the world of Sailor Moon, the Power of Silver Crystal apparently gives them the right to rule. The Bloodline of the Moon is carried down through the Silver Crystal. If you do not think Neo Queen Serenity is the ruler of Crystal Tokyo, then you might need to rewatch the Sailor Moon series in manga, anime or musical form. (The manga, the Queen is the one that everyone makes the fuss over, the anime shows that Chibiusa and the citizens of Crystal Tokyo idolize their Queen as an elegant maiden. The musicals show it best, they show the Queen directly as the dominant parent to Chibiusa, with Endymion doing what is traditionally cast the "wife's role". There is no implication of an equal share of rule. Everybody and everything centres around the Queen. Not the King. I honestly think you are just biased in favour for personal reasoning. I'm sure the King has much power, but he is probably second to his Queen, I just don't see the reasoning that they would have equal power. I'm sure he advises his wife, makes alot of decisions but when push comes to shove, its the Queen in charge. Nobody calls the King the rule. Its always "Ruler of Crystal Tokyo, Neo Queen Serenity". Not "Serenity and Endymion".

Quote :
I was rather of the impression that Mamoru believed that this search would bring him back memories of early childhood, especially parents.

This is your own reasoning and not even that relevant. We are not told exactly what Mamoru was looking for, whether he was looking for his Past Life or childhood memories is up to you to think, however at the end of the day it made no difference. He chose the path of his Past Life, we never see him go looking for birth Parents. We see him commit to his role as Endymion, protector of Serenity, Elysion and the Golden Crystal. That is a fact that be changed. The series revolves around the characters having their lives designated by the Past and by Fate. With the obvious exception of PGSM which tackles the issue head on and concludes that the Past must be closed for the Future to continue. However the other three versions, nobody seriously tries to fight against their Past Life or their Fate as a Soldier.

Quote :
According to Japanese traditions both options are likely, aren't they?

It honestly depends on the circumstances, in most cases, the circumstances will lead the female to take the male's name. However, in the case of Usagi and Mamoru... the circumstances around them... there's honestly no solid reasoning to take the surname Chiba.

___________________________


Voluntarily Deactivated Account!
Back to top Go down
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   29th December 2012, 4:30 am

If the customs are that female mostly takes male name, then I see it as another argument for Chiba. The only argument for Tsukino seems to be based upon Crystal Tokyo, which is a distant future during their wedding and therefore unlikely to influence their decision on common surname.

I don't see how magical power of Silver Crystal equals political power. And I also can't see Chibiusa's wish to be graceful and elegant like her mother as argument for politics of CT. I wonder how you explain Endymion becoming "King" and not "Prince"? Anyway I don't see them doing much ruling, they seem more like monarch. Like they are often absent during formal occasions.

And yes, Mamoru did embrace his past heritage (though I would argue that it was choice, not decision of Fate and Past), but he still has the photo of his parents.

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Tuxedo Mistress
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : That girl with a Sailor Jupiter tattoo =)
Posts : 10797
Join date : 2012-07-25
Age : 28
Location : São Paulo/Brazil


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   29th December 2012, 8:13 am

he is a king because he is married to the queen.

i just think this is becoming pointless. those who have a chiba headcanon, like me, will continue thinking that. but those who think it's tsukino also will continue thinking that.

___________________________


Graphics by all the lovely GC folks
Back to top Go down
http://www.soulgeek.com.br http://twitter.com/mi_makochan http://www.youtube.com/user/mimakoto
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   29th December 2012, 8:56 am

But guy married to the Queen is usually called "Prince", "Prince Consort" or "Duke". Title "King" suggests power in his own right.

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Ktenshi
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : M.I.A
Posts : 701
Join date : 2012-11-10
Age : 30

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   29th December 2012, 9:49 am

Only going to toss in that Moonlight is correct about the titles bit (At least based on what I've observed from the British Monarchy.). Mamoru is not 'King' because he married a queen, he's King because he's the heir to the Earth Kingdom. Had that not been so, his title would have been regulated to Prince Consort. (Using Queen Elizabeth the II as an example with her marriage to Philip- who's known as Prince Philip because of his marriage to Elizabeth. This also means his kids won't take his last name, they would take after their mother's. )

Pretty much: If he forsakes the Earth kingdom to only be with Usagi on the Moon, he would be known as Prince Endymion (Prince Consort title here). But he's not. They're basically on equal standing in terms of rank.

-bows out now. cause completely off topic now.-
Back to top Go down
Jupiter Rose
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : Who am I now in this world without her?
Posts : 5947
Join date : 2012-04-02
Age : 24
Location : Once Arizona, now Scotland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   29th December 2012, 11:06 am

Technically, in modern Sailor Moon (like the present time they live in), there is, as far as I observe, no kingdoms. Not even on Earth. If it weren't for Usagi and her senshi, there'd be no Crystal Tokyo; therefore no kingdom. It would remain Tokyo. So. Let's look at the fact that, whether people like it or not, Usagi is the all-say, all powerful, all awesome, central awesome figure of awesomeness in that universe. Mamoru is not. Deal with it. You like Sailor Moon, you obviously watched the anime or read the manga or something, so you know this is true. If you don't see or understand that concept, my advice is to rewatch or reread again.

Now, I'm going to say this: please, stay on topic. Otherwise, I'm going to give the reins to Brit, the admin, and she will deal with all of this and decide what she wants to do. Talking about inheriting kingdoms doesn't really have anything to do with surnames. The point is, Usagi and Mamoru married each other; whether people like it or not. And the simple fact remains that, in all honesty, the names Usagi and Mamoru and both their surnames don't even matter in the long run. They are known as Serenity and Endymion. Plain and simple. So, for example, whatever "documents" Mamoru could have or Usagi could have, under those names, will either a) not matter or b) will get corrected to reflect Serenity and Endymion. Anything tied to the names Usagi and Mamoru won't even matter in the long run. Since the names Usagi Tsukino and Mamoru Chiba won't really matter, this thread was just for fun. It was just meant for lighthearted opinions, for people to explain their reasoning (while staying on topic), and, to share UsaMamo feels .

I mean they're not even real. They're not really ruling the earth. They're fictional characters. So, this doesn't matter. It was meant for fun.

___________________________

Graphics thanks to NQS, Bubbles, Gemma, Mars, & Diana
Crystal Gem Universe


Last edited by Lady Tuxedo on 29th December 2012, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Brit-chan
Senior Member
Small Lady Emeritus


Senior Member  Small Lady Emeritus

Title : Queen of the Cat Kingdom
Posts : 20313
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 29
Location : Lafayette, LA


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   29th December 2012, 12:20 pm

Ok, I understand everyone has their opinions, but I feel this debate has gotten a bit out of hand. Discussing how the power roles work in a fictional future does not really relate anymore to the topic at hand.

If the discussion continues to go on off topic I will lock this thread and send PM warnings. I've already stated once in this thread to keep on topic. This is my last warning.


I would for others to be able to state if they think Usagi took Chiba or Tsukino. NOT discuss whether or not Mamoru/Usagi sucks or how the monarchy works in the future. If you wish to talk about that then by all means start another discussion thread. Smile

___________________________


Avie by Marsiepan|| Eternal Knight's Myufu <3

Back to top Go down
http://seaofserenity.net http://britchan.tumblr.com/ http://brit-chan.deviantart.com
TuxedoMirage
Star Seed


Star Seed

Title : Mamo-chan Fan
Posts : 11
Join date : 2013-01-03
Age : 37
Location : Lancaster, Ohio


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   5th January 2013, 4:24 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
I think there's good argument for both but there is just more reason for him to take her last name. The Moon Kingdom is a matriarch and that sort of gives Usagi more authority over Mamoru, even in the 30th Century, its clear that Neo Queen Serenity's power surpasses that of King Endymion's. That and Mamoru is orphaned, with no family for Usagi to be adopted into, it makes more sense for Mamoru to be adopted into Usagi's family not the other way around, on the other hand, one could argue that Mamoru would want to start his own lineage however marrying the most powerful woman on Earth would not be the way to do that. So it would seem there is far more reason for Mamoru to join the Tsukino Family. In Japan, lineage is very important when it comes to marriage, Mamoru does not have any, Usagi has a stronger one both as Usagi Tsukino and Princess Serenity. Also when Chibiusa arrives she seems to recognise the name "Usagi Tsukino" and connects Usagi Tsukino to the owner of the Silver Crystal. However, Chibiusa's name is "Usagi Small Lady Serenity" but that might just be her formal title. So personally I would go for Usagi and Mamoru Tsukino.

As they are Japanese, it is highly unlikely that they joined their names together.

I understand this thread is a a few pages long, but I wanted to share a tidbit. It is not unheard of for a Japanese man to take his wife's family name. It has happened for a while throughout Japan's history.

How I found out about it was reading a liner note for the anime OVA, Lupin III: The Fuma Conspiracy. The character, Goemon Ishikawa (samurai-ronen), nearly married a young girl name Murasaki and assume her surname of Suminawa.

I heard from other sources this might occur when the female spouse is an only child-or the husband is marrying into a prominent family, in which it is beneficial for him to take his wife's family name for business and social purposes.

If Mamoru decided to assume the name Tsukino, it wouldn't be completely unheard of.

___________________________

Back to top Go down
http://www.facebook.com/angela.m.woolsey https://twitter.com/karritto http://sailormoonstuffz.tumblr.com/ http://karrit.deviantart.com/ https://www.youtube.com/user/karritto
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   5th January 2013, 1:19 pm

Yes, it's not unheard of, in cases you mentioned. But such reasons don't occur here - Usagi has a brother and there's no career prospect for Mamoru in becoming Tsukino. In fact, he could have problems with being recognized as author of his already published papers.

There were mentioned cases, where it would make sense - like with Hina in PGSM or if somebody married Rei for temple.

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Sailor Cocoa
Inner Senshi Admin
Media Director


Inner Senshi AdminMedia Director

Title : AKA Haine~ the official hardcore UsaxMamo fan
Posts : 3245
Join date : 2012-09-24
Age : 29
Location : The Echanted forest looking for my unicorn pet


PostSubject: Debate: Why Usagi "Chibi-Usa" Tsukino instead of "Chiba"   1st February 2013, 7:27 pm

I've been thinking on this for a while and i found that weird, if i'm correct in the parallel manga the panel said she was "Usagi Tsukino" shouldn't she be Usagi Chiba? i mean, i know if in the manga/anime she introduced herself as Usagi and didn't said last name because maybe she wasn't aloud to say she was from the future or something else, but...seriously, is there any reason for this? i haven't read anything related to that so :/

what you guys think?

___________________________


 
Back to top Go down
http://queenmaruhi.tumblr.com/ http://eternalwitch.deviantart.com/
Houyou no Senshi
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Posts : 4565
Join date : 2011-12-12

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   1st February 2013, 7:38 pm

In Japan, it is not uncommon for men to take the woman's last name if there's a reason for it, thats really a Western thing, Japanese people will usually look more at the circumstances around their relationship rather than just going with the male's name, though in most cases the female will take the man's name, it's not unusual for it to be the other way around.

This might give you some ideas

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t3712-debate-which-surname-did-usagi-take

___________________________


Voluntarily Deactivated Account!
Back to top Go down
Ktenshi
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : M.I.A
Posts : 701
Join date : 2012-11-10
Age : 30

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   1st February 2013, 8:08 pm

Parallel Moon =/= Canon Manga storyline.

In the story Chibiusa's full name is give as "Princess Lady Usagi Serenity" (no last name). When she goes back in time, she's posing as a cousin to the Tsukino family. It would make more sense if she's called "Tsukino" rather an Chiba, thus no only making her name basically identical to her mother's, but it does tie her closely to the family she's basically living with.

Parallel Moon is different and not much thought is given in it (Much like Houyou said though it makes me wonder about Makoto who is an orphan and why did she keep her surname if she has no stance in society?)

So, yeah it can all boil down to believing whatever you like.
Back to top Go down
Jupiter Rose
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : Who am I now in this world without her?
Posts : 5947
Join date : 2012-04-02
Age : 24
Location : Once Arizona, now Scotland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   1st February 2013, 8:14 pm

I just stand by the fact that, in the instances the moon family needs to use last names, they just go by Tsukino. Even Mamoru. I stand by that idea, even in the other debate thread.

I'm pretty sure in the anime too I've seen "Chibiusa Tsukino". Where else would she pull that name from? I mean, you could argue that her father told her when telling Chibiusa stories about Sailor Moon, but I don't think he often went (if at all?) "Usagi Tsukino -" and then carry on with the story. I'm sure he just talked of Sailor Moon and the senshi.

___________________________

Graphics thanks to NQS, Bubbles, Gemma, Mars, & Diana
Crystal Gem Universe
Back to top Go down
Ktenshi
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : M.I.A
Posts : 701
Join date : 2012-11-10
Age : 30

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   1st February 2013, 8:30 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
I just stand by the fact that, in the instances the moon family needs to use last names, they just go by Tsukino. Even Mamoru. I stand by that idea, even in the other debate thread.

I'm pretty sure in the anime too I've seen "Chibiusa Tsukino". Where else would she pull that name from? I mean, you could argue that her father told her when telling Chibiusa stories about Sailor Moon, but I don't think he often went (if at all?) "Usagi Tsukino -" and then carry on with the story. I'm sure he just talked of Sailor Moon and the senshi.

Personally, I don't think the Moon family requires or needs a last name as they didn't seem to have one in the past or need it. So really the Tsukino name is only a thing for the Tsukino family who aren't that powerful, aren't really rich per say, or hold any powerful/influential positions. -shrugs- but that's just me. I find it makes more sense she takes the Tsukino name because she's supposed to be a 'cousin'.

Isn't that curious though? If - now we're in the What if terroritory - he never uses the senshi's real names or even his own or his wife's, then how does Chibusa know to inflitrate the Tsukino home? How does she know about Usagi? I mean we have no evidence that tells us if the Sailor Senshi are even in contact with their Earth families once Crystal tokyo is established. (Though it doesn't look like it).

Manga, it looks like she knows very well who Usagi is and what she's about. Anime- nope. She's surprised that Usagi's even Sailor Moon. Which..makes no sense..


Back to top Go down
Jupiter Rose
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : Who am I now in this world without her?
Posts : 5947
Join date : 2012-04-02
Age : 24
Location : Once Arizona, now Scotland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   1st February 2013, 8:38 pm

[quote="Ktenshi"]
Lady Tuxedo wrote:


Isn't that curious though? If - now we're in the What if terroritory - he never uses the senshi's real names or even his own or his wife's, then how does Chibusa know to inflitrate the Tsukino home? How does she know about Usagi? I mean we have no evidence that tells us if the Sailor Senshi are even in contact with their Earth families once Crystal tokyo is established. (Though it doesn't look like it).

.......I just told you how she'd know..........

Also, just because they are royal, that does not necessarily mean they "drop the last name" (and I REALLY don't want this to turn into a debate where people think they have to step it up to defend Mamoru or something when, there isn't anything to defend). There is no dissing or anything of the sort. It's suggesting, in a sweet manner, that Usagi is his everything, since he had nothing, not even family. So. Yeah.

But! You all have my two cents now. Especially if curious people wander over to the other thread. Smile

___________________________

Graphics thanks to NQS, Bubbles, Gemma, Mars, & Diana
Crystal Gem Universe
Back to top Go down
Houyou no Senshi
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Posts : 4565
Join date : 2011-12-12

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   1st February 2013, 8:43 pm

I like to think of it like other royal families, they do have a last name but its not used and most people don't even realise, take the Emperor of Japan his full name is Akihito Tsugunomiya but no one is going to call him that. This is true for most world monarchs in the real world, they have their proper regular name and a ceremonial name but that doesn't make their regular name obsolete.

However that is not what Haine was asking...

Parallel Sailor Moon it seems Mamoru took Usagi's last name, but this does not reflect the rest of the manga.

The difference between Makoto and Mamoru is that Mamoru has put his childhood away and has moved on from his parents and is more interested in his Past Life and in Usagi, Makoto has not and through several versions of the series suffers from insecurity and esteem problems, PGSM shows that it is directly linked to her parents' death, Makoto is shown as a girl who follows a vicious cycle of falling in love and being disillusioned, episodes about her almost always show her seeking out people to find her some sort of place where she can feel wanted and not abandoned or else to deal with her insecurities about not being good enough. Mamoru's insecurities however revolve around not being strong enough to defend Usagi.

___________________________


Voluntarily Deactivated Account!
Back to top Go down
Momma Jupi
Senior Member
Jupiter Emeritus


Senior Member  Jupiter Emeritus

Title : Rebecca Freckleton
Posts : 3641
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 31
Location : NY


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   2nd February 2013, 8:45 am

Hallo, loves. As Houyou no Senshi mentioned, we already have a thread concerning this topic: Debate: Which surname did Usagi take?

So I will be merging this thread into that one. Smile


And as Tuxie said, this is not a topic to defend whether Mamoru is worthy or "man" enough to have his last name used, rather a speculation on why Usagi seems to have kept her last name. Please let us keep this friendly. Smile

___________________________


[Isshou-ni.net]
Back to top Go down
http://isshou-ni.net https://twitter.com/mydearsourwolf
Moonlight Lady
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 664
Join date : 2012-07-15
Location : Poland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   2nd February 2013, 12:47 pm

@Ktenshi wrote:

Isn't that curious though? If - now we're in the What if terroritory - he never uses the senshi's real names or even his own or his wife's, then how does Chibusa know to inflitrate the Tsukino home? How does she know about Usagi? I mean we have no evidence that tells us if the Sailor Senshi are even in contact with their Earth families once Crystal tokyo is established. (Though it doesn't look like it).

Manga, it looks like she knows very well who Usagi is and what she's about. Anime- nope. She's surprised that Usagi's even Sailor Moon. Which..makes no sense..

I actually think that it makes greater sense - in manga she knows, but doesn't act toward them as if she knew.

Chibiusa has an idea that Usagi Tsukino may have Silver Cristal, but she dropped it after few episodes when she couldn't find it. When she learnt Usagi is Sailor Moon and has indee the Silver Crystal, she was shocked.

___________________________

Avatar made by Sailor Jupiter - I thank you cordially.

Back to top Go down
http://neoma2.tumblr.com/
Jupiter Rose
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : Who am I now in this world without her?
Posts : 5947
Join date : 2012-04-02
Age : 24
Location : Once Arizona, now Scotland


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?   4th February 2013, 8:40 am

Here's a novel idea :O why don't you make a thread debating on Mamoru and Usagi's relationship? That way nobody has to go off topic or anything and we need more debates in the debates area.

___________________________

Graphics thanks to NQS, Bubbles, Gemma, Mars, & Diana
Crystal Gem Universe
Back to top Go down
 

[Debate] Which surname did Usagi take?

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 3 of 5Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
The Galaxy Cauldron :: General Sailor Moon Discussions :: Theories, Debates and Headcanons-