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 Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?

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Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?
Usagi is more Mamoru's rock
47%
 47% [ 7 ]
Mamoru is more Usagi's rock
53%
 53% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 15
 

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Moonlight Lady
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PostSubject: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   2nd February 2013, 11:49 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

(and I REALLY don't want this to turn into a debate where people think they have to step it up to defend Mamoru or something when, there isn't anything to defend). There is no dissing or anything of the sort. It's suggesting, in a sweet manner, that Usagi is his everything, since he had nothing, not even family.

How stating that Mamoru is nothing without Usagi, is not dissing of his character?

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

The difference between Makoto and Mamoru is that Mamoru has put his childhood away and has moved on from his parents and is more interested in his Past Life and in Usagi, Makoto has not and through several versions of the series suffers from insecurity and esteem problems, PGSM shows that it is directly linked to her parents' death, Makoto is shown as a girl who follows a vicious cycle of falling in love and being disillusioned, episodes about her almost always show her seeking out people to find her some sort of place where she can feel wanted and not abandoned or else to deal with her insecurities about not being good enough. Mamoru's insecurities however revolve around not being strong enough to defend Usagi.

In anime this seems to be inverted - Mamoru's being orphan is important in first season and R movie, whereas Mako's never mentioned. And Mamoru and Usagi bond over her compassion for his loneliness, so I could never imagine her wanting him to move on from his parents.

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Last edited by Moonlight Lady on 5th February 2013, 6:39 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Poll adding)
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   2nd February 2013, 12:09 pm

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
I just stand by the fact that, in the instances the moon family needs to use last names, they just go by Tsukino. Even Mamoru. I stand by that idea, even in the other debate thread.

I'm pretty sure in the anime too I've seen "Chibiusa Tsukino". Where else would she pull that name from? I mean, you could argue that her father told her when telling Chibiusa stories about Sailor Moon, but I don't think he often went (if at all?) "Usagi Tsukino -" and then carry on with the story. I'm sure he just talked of Sailor Moon and the senshi.

Chibiusa assumed "Tsukino" surname, when she hypnotysed them in believed they are her cousins. If she had always that surname, she would wonder about having both the first and last name as Usagi.

And she didn't know that Usagi is Sailor Moon. She only vaguely heard she might be linked to Silver Crystal.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   2nd February 2013, 2:13 pm

Quote :
How stating that Mamoru is nothing without Usagi, is not dissing of his character?

Because its the nature of their relationship. Its not a bad thing, its supposed to be romantic whether you agree or not that's how its supposed to be. Only a single version shows Endymion putting the Earth before Usagi (PGSM) but the other three, if you are going to deny that Mamoru's mission is to defend Usagi then you might have been watching the wrong show. The biggest evidence is the explanation of the Moonlight Knight.

Quote :
Chibiusa assumed "Tsukino" surname, when she hypnotysed them in believed they are her cousins. If she had always that surname, she would wonder about having both the first and last name as Usagi.

Not quite true in her first manga scene, Chibiusa clearly recognises the name "Usagi Tsukino" and makes a point of saying "Usagi Tsukino" must have the Silver Crystal. However we do not know how Chibiusa makes that connection.

Quote :
In anime this seems to be inverted - Mamoru's being orphan is important in first season and R movie, whereas Mako's never mentioned. And Mamoru and Usagi bond over her compassion for his loneliness, so I could never imagine her wanting him to move on from his parents.

But this is just your opinion when you say "I could never imagine" without any actual evidence then it is no longer interpretation, it is just how you think about the characters, I can't think of an instance in the series in any version where Mamoru or Usagi shows any real interest or anxiety over Mamoru's childhood, what we DO see in both the anime and told in SeraMyu (through the song Kaze no Shijin) is that as a child Mamoru was worried about "who am i?" "why am i alive?" and it turned out, that he was Prince Endymion set to protect Usagi/Princess Serenity, he accepts this in all versions. Like Minako and Makoto in PGSM, Usagi and Mamoru (in all versions are consistently dedicated to their Past and accept that their Past Lives will dictate their present and future.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   3rd February 2013, 11:04 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :
How stating that Mamoru is nothing without Usagi, is not dissing of his character?
Because its the nature of their relationship. Its not a bad thing, its supposed to be romantic whether you agree or not that's how its supposed to be. Only a single version shows Endymion putting the Earth before Usagi (PGSM) but the other three, if you are going to deny that Mamoru's mission is to defend Usagi then you might have been watching the wrong show. The biggest evidence is the explanation of the Moonlight Knight.
Mamoru's decision to protect Usagi =/= Mamoru is nothing without Usagi. Unless you'd like to state also that all senshi are nothing without Usagi?


@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :
Chibiusa assumed "Tsukino" surname, when she hypnotysed them in believed they are her cousins. If she had always that surname, she would wonder about having both the first and last name as Usagi.

Not quite true in her first manga scene, Chibiusa clearly recognises the name "Usagi Tsukino" and makes a point of saying "Usagi Tsukino" must have the Silver Crystal. However we do not know how Chibiusa makes that connection.

Which is also in the anime - but my point was that she doesn't recogize "Tsukino" as her true surname of 30th century. She uses this surname, when she pretends to be Usagi's cousin.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :
In anime this seems to be inverted - Mamoru's being orphan is important in first season and R movie, whereas Mako's never mentioned. And Mamoru and Usagi bond over her compassion for his loneliness, so I could never imagine her wanting him to move on from his parents.

But this is just your opinion when you say "I could never imagine" without any actual evidence then it is no longer interpretation, it is just how you think about the characters, I can't think of an instance in the series in any version where Mamoru or Usagi shows any real interest or anxiety over Mamoru's childhood,

They are talking about this in elevator in episode 34, which is referenced in the finale, when she purifies him. There is also scene in R movie, where they talk about it. Usagi's being deeply moved by Mamoru's experience is anime canon.

And IMO this is as valid interpretation as saying that Mamoru doesn't care at all about his parents.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
what we DO see in both the anime and told in SeraMyu (through the song Kaze no Shijin) is that as a child Mamoru was worried about "who am i?" "why am i alive?" and it turned out, that he was Prince Endymion set to protect Usagi/Princess Serenity, he accepts this in all versions. Like Minako and Makoto in PGSM, Usagi and Mamoru (in all versions) are consistently dedicated to their Past and accept that their Past Lives will dictate their present and future.

The musicals seem to be rather anti-Mamoru?

And I don't see them as dictated by their Past, rather influenced by it. This is vital difference, as the first version would deprive them of free will and therefore meaning. It's like a notion spread by Seiya/Usagi that her being with Seiya would be because of choice, while being with Mamoru is merely out of duty.

And as I said, dedication to their duty is also sailor senshi's trait and nobody states they are nothing without Usagi.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   3rd February 2013, 7:27 pm

Quote :

Mamoru's decision to protect Usagi =/= Mamoru is nothing without Usagi. Unless you'd like to state also that all senshi are nothing without Usagi?

You are looking at the series from your personal point of view. This is the problem here. You must view the series from within the series perspective, this is a series about destiny and reincarnation, most characters have had their destiny dictated to them, Mamoru has chosen his own. This is shown because they all accept their duty as a Sailor Soldier quite easily. The character who did not is Minako in the manga but she grew to accept it culminating in accepting she will never find love because of her mission. Mamoru may be competent as a human being in the real world. In the Sailor Moon world. He is nothing without his Usako, Mamoru is reliant on Usagi, she is his lifeline, he has sworn himself to protect her, HOWEVER this does not occur vice versa as Mamoru has been away from Usagi, though it is certainly a blow to her, everytime she picks herself up and carries on, we have NOT seen this in reverse in any version EXCEPT PGSM which you don't seem to be discussing. They are destined lovers, have a miracle romance, a love magic whatever you want to call it. This is the set up of their relationship, it is too difficult to deny. No matter how much you like Mamoru, Usagi is the brightest star of all, she is the heroine and everything revolves around her. The exception to this is the Sailor Moon SuperS anime that instead revolves around Chibiusa.

Quote :
Which is also in the anime - but my point was that she doesn't recogize "Tsukino" as her true surname of 30th century. She uses this surname, when she pretends to be Usagi's cousin.

I never said she did, I just said she recognises it from somewhere before she accepts it as a pseudonym. Like I said we don't know how she recognises it and it is wrong for us to make guesses.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :
In anime this seems to be inverted - Mamoru's being orphan is important in first season and R movie, whereas Mako's never mentioned. And Mamoru and Usagi bond over her compassion for his loneliness, so I could never imagine her wanting him to move on from his parents.

But this is just your opinion when you say "I could never imagine" without any actual evidence then it is no longer interpretation, it is just how you think about the characters, I can't think of an instance in the series in any version where Mamoru or Usagi shows any real interest or anxiety over Mamoru's childhood,

They are talking about this in elevator in episode 34, which is referenced in the finale, when she purifies him. There is also scene in R movie, where they talk about it. Usagi's being deeply moved by Mamoru's experience is anime canon.

And IMO this is as valid interpretation as saying that Mamoru doesn't care at all about his parents.

He may mention it but he doesn't speak of it much, you're trying to fit in details that aren't there. In the case of episode 34 Mamoru doesn't talk about "oh I miss my parents" he says "Who am I?" "I must find the Crystal" "I must find out who that Princess is" You're missing the point. I never said he doesn't care, its just clearly he has chosen to search for his Past Life rather than his childhood. He finds out hes Endymion and that does it for him. There is not really an interpretation here, its black and white. Find The Crystal. Oh There it is. Well Gotta Protect the Princess For Four Seasons. Oh Hang On Weird Dreams Imma Stop. Oh Wait I Can't. Okay Whatev I'm Over It Now. Let's Just Miracle Romance Yeah? and then S SuperS and Stars come by with nary a blip in their relationship. In the anime he broke up their relationship because he thought it would protect Usagi.

Again I think you are looking at the series from your personal real-life point of view.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
what we DO see in both the anime and told in SeraMyu (through the song Kaze no Shijin) is that as a child Mamoru was worried about "who am i?" "why am i alive?" and it turned out, that he was Prince Endymion set to protect Usagi/Princess Serenity, he accepts this in all versions. Like Minako and Makoto in PGSM, Usagi and Mamoru (in all versions) are consistently dedicated to their Past and accept that their Past Lives will dictate their present and future.

The musicals seem to be rather anti-Mamoru?


Anti-Mamoru, Pro-Mamoru? I have no idea what you're talking about. all versions are "pro-mamoru" he is the hero of the saga. If you feel one version does not manage his personality well or puts him in bad plotlines, thats your choice but all versions of the series unless hes brainwashed make him a protagonist. In the musicals Mamoru along with Setsuna, Ami and Chibiusa takes front-stage with Usagi leaving the remainder characters to wait their turn.

Quote :
And I don't see them as dictated by their Past, rather influenced by it. This is vital difference, as the first version would deprive them of free will and therefore meaning. It's like a notion spread by Seiya/Usagi that her being with Seiya would be because of choice, while being with Mamoru is merely out of duty.

And as I said, dedication to their duty is also sailor senshi's trait and nobody states they are nothing without Usagi.

This may because you aren't totally familiar with the Asian concept of reincarnation. The anime, the manga and the musicals pretty much go straight forward "In the Past Life. I was a Princess and because of that in the present I am a heroine of Love and Justice with a duty". In the East, many people find this concept easy to accept, that a Past Life has direct impact on the Present, Japan included if not especially. Those three versions do not question that, and if they do it is usually isolated and they usually are over it by the end of the episodes (Minako's episode 100 for example). The anime brings it up very briefly twice, one straight after she becomes the Princess but its resolved, and during the Makaiju arc where it goes on for several episodes but once again Usagi resolves to her mission of protecting her beloved ones. The musicals and manga mention it occasionally but no character shows particular resentment against the past except Beryl and Lilith, who both hold ancient grudges that have flooded their bodies for centuries. The only version to confront this issue seriously is PGSM where the characters actually start to bring up tensions, Rei vs. Makoto and Minako especially, Rei goes around going "The future and present are your own to decide" Minako and later in the series Makoto give into the Past and work to put an end to it. Usagi and Mamoru also become concerned about its influence on their life. Ami is knitting or something, she really drops out of the series at this point. PGSM resolves that the present and future is the decisionof the characters. However the other three major versions do not and resolve "I am a Soldier of Love and Justice, it is my duty to protect the Earth" the biggest sign of the dedication the characters have to their duty is become the QUEEN OF THE EARTH and her associates, advisers and official.

I really really think you are trying to fit Sailor Moon around your own understanding of things. It must be seen from within the series, not from outside it. For example in the real world Haruka and Michiru's willing to sacrifice Hotaru is justified, within the Sailor Moon series with its idealistic pursuits, it is not. We know this because in the series no sacrifice was made and everything worked out fine.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   4th February 2013, 5:30 am

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :

Mamoru's decision to protect Usagi =/= Mamoru is nothing without Usagi. Unless you'd like to state also that all senshi are nothing without Usagi?

You are looking at the series from your personal point of view. This is the problem here. You must view the series from within the series perspective, this is a series about destiny and reincarnation, most characters have had their destiny dictated to them, Mamoru has chosen his own. This is shown because they all accept their duty as a Sailor Soldier quite easily. The character who did not is Minako in the manga but she grew to accept it culminating in accepting she will never find love because of her mission. Mamoru may be competent as a human being in the real world. In the Sailor Moon world. He is nothing without his Usako, Mamoru is reliant on Usagi, she is his lifeline, he has sworn himself to protect her, HOWEVER this does not occur vice versa as Mamoru has been away from Usagi, though it is certainly a blow to her, everytime she picks herself up and carries on, we have NOT seen this in reverse in any version EXCEPT PGSM which you don't seem to be discussing. They are destined lovers, have a miracle romance, a love magic whatever you want to call it. This is the set up of their relationship, it is too difficult to deny. No matter how much you like Mamoru, Usagi is the brightest star of all, she is the heroine and everything revolves around her. The exception to this is the Sailor Moon SuperS anime that instead revolves around Chibiusa.

But there is a difference between stating that Usagi is the heroine and the series revolves around her, which no one disagrees about (even in SuperS there are both heroines), and stating that Mamoru is nothing without Usagi. If it was so, he would have never left to States.

And the reason, why we see Usagi without Mamoru and not vice versa (except a little during break up) is actually that she is the heroine and everything revolves around her. And actually I would argue that it was shown how Usagi badly copes without Mamoru - which is played for laughs in S and SuperS, when he is absent for work and university business, and played more for drama during breakup in R and Stars, where she was totally depressed.

Nice to see you so convinced about Mamoru's devotion to Usagi, as most people are doubtful about it.



@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
Quote :
In anime this seems to be inverted - Mamoru's being orphan is important in first season and R movie, whereas Mako's never mentioned. And Mamoru and Usagi bond over her compassion for his loneliness, so I could never imagine her wanting him to move on from his parents.

But this is just your opinion when you say "I could never imagine" without any actual evidence then it is no longer interpretation, it is just how you think about the characters, I can't think of an instance in the series in any version where Mamoru or Usagi shows any real interest or anxiety over Mamoru's childhood,

They are talking about this in elevator in episode 34, which is referenced in the finale, when she purifies him. There is also scene in R movie, where they talk about it. Usagi's being deeply moved by Mamoru's experience is anime canon.

And IMO this is as valid interpretation as saying that Mamoru doesn't care at all about his parents.[/qoute]

He may mention it but he doesn't speak of it much, you're trying to fit in details that aren't there. In the case of episode 34 Mamoru doesn't talk about "oh I miss my parents" he says "Who am I?" "I must find the Crystal" "I must find out who that Princess is" You're missing the point. I never said he doesn't care, its just clearly he has chosen to search for his Past Life rather than his childhood. [/quote]
IIRC, he never talks about finding Princess, but about getting back memories. Talking explicitly about missing his parents would be OOC for Mamoru.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:

This may because you aren't totally familiar with the Asian concept of reincarnation. The anime, the manga and the musicals pretty much go straight forward "In the Past Life. I was a Princess and because of that in the present I am a heroine of Love and Justice with a duty". In the East, many people find this concept easy to accept, that a Past Life has direct impact on the Present, Japan included if not especially. Those three versions do not question that, and if they do it is usually isolated and they usually are over it by the end of the episodes (Minako's episode 100 for example). The anime brings it up very briefly twice, one straight after she becomes the Princess but its resolved, and during the Makaiju arc where it goes on for several episodes but once again Usagi resolves to her mission of protecting her beloved ones.

But girls were Sailor Warriors for many episodes before learning about past lives. Their memories made the fight with Dark Kingdom more personal, but were never reason for standing up to their enemy.

And in Makaiju arc Usagi manages to resolve her reluctance not because of her Past Life, but because she knew her friends need her and won't manage without her - as in anime she is usually the one capable of giving final blow to the enemy.

I see them being reincarnated as second chance they were denied by early deaths in the Past. But they are not only soldiers with duty, but also Japanese girls of early nineties, with interests and aspirations beyond their mission.

@Houyou no Senshi wrote:
For example in the real world Haruka and Michiru's willing to sacrifice Hotaru is justified, within the Sailor Moon series with its idealistic pursuits, it is not. We know this because in the series no sacrifice was made and everything worked out fine.

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PostSubject: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's Rock?   4th February 2013, 6:37 pm

Yeaaaaaaaah its gotten pretty offtopic now, I'm going to type this here for now but could you split the topic and move this to a more appropriate thread please?

I don't think you're actually reading these properly but oh well

Quote :
And the reason, why we see Usagi without Mamoru and not vice versa (except a little during break up) is actually that she is the heroine and everything revolves around her. And actually I would argue that it was shown how Usagi badly copes without Mamoru - which is played for laughs in S and SuperS, when he is absent for work and university business, and played more for drama during breakup in R and Stars, where she was totally depressed.

Yes all very good except Usagi DOESN'T cope badly, she does NOT shut down. She takes it as a serious blow and cries a little bit but everytime she is left without Mamoru (Brainwashed in the first series, break up in R, long distance in Stars) she picks herself up and whoops some butt. She is shown time and time again she is perfectly capable. This is not shown for Mamoru.

Quote :
They are talking about this in elevator in episode 34, which is referenced in the finale, when she purifies him. There is also scene in R movie, where they talk about it. Usagi's being deeply moved by Mamoru's experience is anime canon.

You are not interpreting, you are filling in gaps in the storytelling and it is not the same thing. Mamoru may or may not care about his modern day parents, we do not know, there is nothing suggested either way for the purposes of the story it is irrelevant since whatever his decision he has chosen to dedicate his life to Usagi. That is undeniable fact, he wanted to know who he was, he found out he was Endymion and has never shaken from that position. Usagi may be moved as Mamoru spoke of his parents but there is nothing to suggest Mamoru's personal feelings on the subject. He says "my parents died" he does not say how he feels on the subject.

Quote :
IIRC, he never talks about finding Princess, but about getting back memories. Talking explicitly about missing his parents would be OOC for Mamoru.

Well its kind of implied that he wants to know who is telling him to find the Crystal... I never said anything about finding the Princess, I just said finding who she is and how she is related to him.

Quote :
But girls were Sailor Warriors for many episodes before learning about past lives. Their memories made the fight with Dark Kingdom more personal, but were never reason for standing up to their enemy.

And in Makaiju arc Usagi manages to resolve her reluctance not because of her Past Life, but because she knew her friends need her and won't manage without her - as in anime she is usually the one capable of giving final blow to the enemy.

I see them being reincarnated as second chance they were denied by early deaths in the Past. But they are not only soldiers with duty, but also Japanese girls of early nineties, with interests and aspirations beyond their mission.

Again this is because you aren't familiar with the Asian concept of reincarnation and destiny. Many people in Asia, particularly females think that the present life is dictated by a Past Life, i does not matter if you know what that Past life was, fate and destiny will continue to shift your experiences, for the Asians who do not believe in this personally, it is still a common concept in fiction and much easier to understand than it is for Westerners. Also nobody is saying that they only dedicate themselves to their mission, it is just their primary task. You are being awfully black and white about all this, it is not "Yes" or "No" there are varying levels of grey going on here.

I'm really really really tired of this, I think you are putting your personal feelings on the characters and what YOU would like them to be like and what to do, I'm really just trying to debate the facts here not could-be-facts. So I'm done here.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   4th February 2013, 7:13 pm

Mod Time!

This thread has been split from the "Which Surname would Usagi Take?" thread since there was continuous discussion on the relationship of Usagi and Mamoru rather than the actual topic at hand. Plus, there has just been other times where the topic of Usagi and Mamoru's relationship would come up in debate form, so I just decided to make this thread.

Please post here from now on if you decide you want to debate Usagi and Mamoru's relationship and who is what to whom. Thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 7:54 am

Lady Tuxedo wrote:
Mod Time!

This thread has been split from the "Which Surname would Usagi Take?" thread since there was continuous discussion on the relationship of Usagi and Mamoru rather than the actual topic at hand. Plus, there has just been other times where the topic of Usagi and Mamoru's relationship would come up in debate form, so I just decided to make this thread.

Please post here from now on if you decide you want to debate Usagi and Mamoru's relationship and who is what to whom. Thank you.

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Thank you cordially.

When I saw this thread, I couldn't believe, how I created in while sleeping. I am such a dedicated shipper.

I added a poll.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 8:27 am

I think there should be another option for "mutual"

i personally think it's mutual, it looks like it's from just one side but i always thought it's from both sides Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 9:55 am

Usagi has many many friends and family and an incredibly huge heart that can easily endear her to others.

Mamoru does not have those things. He is a socially awkward kind of guy (generally), and he only has Usagi and uhhh Motoki I guess :3 So I think, without a doubt, (in my opinon) Usagi is more of a rock to Mamoru, than he is to her. She has things to support her, while Mamoru does not have these things. I firmly believe that she is the light in his world, and I do not think he would be the guy we know him as, if he hadn't met Usagi.

Usagi, however, would still be Usagi regardless.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 12:51 pm

Haine wrote:
I think there should be another option for "mutual"

i personally think it's mutual, it looks like it's from just one side but i always thought it's from both sides Smile

"Mutual" would be an obvious option, so decided against it. Besides it's obviously not one-sided, the question is who is more?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 1:52 pm

I love Mamoru dearly but I believe he's Usagi rock then she is his because we know Mamoru is a mature intelligent guy who doesn't get distracted easily. When he is in a bad situation he can over come it with no problems but for Usagi its really hard.

Another Obvious reason is Mamoru is all Usagi ever thinks about aside from Food, and for Mamoru its Usagi, School. Like I said before he's a very focus person .

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 2:00 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Usagi has many many friends and family and an incredibly huge heart that can easily endear her to others.

Mamoru does not have those things. He is a socially awkward kind of guy (generally), and he only has Usagi and uhhh Motoki I guess :3 So I think, without a doubt, (in my opinon) Usagi is more of a rock to Mamoru, than he is to her. She has things to support her, while Mamoru does not have these things. I firmly believe that she is the light in his world, and I do not think he would be the guy we know him as, if he hadn't met Usagi.

Usagi, however, would still be Usagi regardless.


Manga wise and even Anime, Mamoru is shown to have friends outside of Usagi and is well adjusted actually. Animewise: Motoki, Saori, Kobayashi and somewhat Dr. Asimov too. Manga, we only know of his life at school (he's active, well admired.)

So Manga wise, he has -less- known friends but we see -more- of his school life which shows he's pretty normal guy.

Anime wise, similar, but more brooding.

So I really do believe that while he could grieve over Usagi, he can operate without her too. Even the Break up, he's operating NORMALLY. He's not curling up in a fetal position in a room without Usagi. He still socializes with Motoki and his sister and still attends Uni.

So I think it's mutual, and I believe it's more so that he's Usagi's rock, considering how often she refers to him and goes to him for problems and reassurances. I think also that his reassurances matter more to her than her friends.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 2:16 pm

I think its quite open but I feel that Mamoru is more reliant on Usagi than Usagi is on Mamoru despite what it seems on the surface. On the surface I think its the other way around, but beneath that. Mamoru needs Usagi to protect and love and cherish. Usagi of course does the same, but if you took him away, she would cry and be all right eventually but Mamoru would probably feel he has no real purposes, examples:

manga Black Moon arc where he feels that he's not strong enough for her
the fact he broke up with her to "protect" her shows he's putting her before him self (R anime)
Last words in Stars before death are about her
Stars musical: (in which Mamoru gets to America and DOES NOT die), he comes back to Japan secretly and infiltrates the Shadow Galactica to save Usagi.

for the other side
First arc, Usagi cries when Mamoru is taken away but she makes a resolve to save him
Ditto stars arc
Usagi often battles on her on, Mamoru is almost always fighting with her
Moonlight Justice: this song is interesting, it seems that Usagi is trying to say that she's strong enough on her own (She even says: My dream is myself)

I think they are both capable individuals on their own, but I think Mamoru's purpose in life, in his eyes, is to protect Usagi while Usagi's purpose in life is much broader and is to protect the Earth. So I think Mamoru is more reliant on Usagi, Usagi seems to be more reliant on him but she's rather just quite an emotional girl.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 2:33 pm

Well, there are certain things people are reeeeally not considering here.

Mamoru is a MALE. Usagi is a FEMALE. Females are more emotional creatures than guys are. That's a proven fact. Do you think Usagi is the only girl that would curl up over a break up? If you think that...I really don't even know. But it's hilarious. Very rarely does a male express deep sadness or completely shut down if something bad happens (especially in terms of relationships). Males tend to try and shove off certain emotions and Mamoru is no exception. However, did you not see Mamoru cry, I believe at least twice, when he broke up with Usagi? Or were you sleeping?

I don't think Usagi struggles as badly as some are trying to make it out to be. Usagi can still function. Usagi still socializes with her friends. She still smiles and laughs and eats and goes to school. She still fights as a senshi. This is evident in Stars when Mamoru is gone. It's evident in PGSM when Mamoru was put in a tight spot and had to go to the Dark Kingdom.

I feel that it leans more towards Usagi being Mamoru's rock, though she definitely needs him for support. However, he isn't the only one she needs. If you wanna see her actually not function, you have to take away everybody. The inners, the outers, Chibiusa, Mamoru, Luna, Artemis, Diana, and her mother, father, and brother. Naru and Umino, too. Take literally every person away, and she very well may fall apart. Just like anybody else who has lost it all that they were close to.

Can I just say I am really surprised at some of your guys' responses? o_o do you not know what it's like to be in a relationship or have never at least observed a relationship or...? Because Usagi's reactions are actually pretty normal. The fact that she finds some way to carry on, that's unusual. The fact that she can still socialize, laugh, have fun, all of that, that is a definite sign of strength. Because she is deeply in love with Mamoru. You don't just bounce back like that if you haven't heard from your boyfriend in a very long time or circumstances took him away. If it were truly over between them or anything like that at all, it would definitely take time for someone deeply in love to be okay and bounce back. And time definitely varies.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote :
If you wanna see her actually not function, you have to take away everybody.

Let's not forget Galaxia did just that and Usagi still was capable to carry on.

There's even in a SeraMyu song where Usagi's all alone and she sings about how it doesn't matter because she can still feel them watching over her and how she'll never give up. How many times has she said that she'll never give up and never get in. *nods* that's who she is.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 2:48 pm

Not saying she doesn't function normally without him. I mean, yeah, she's an emotional girl and the entire series is based on her and her relationships. I'm just saying, that Mamoru can function without her too and has. (and deep down I really want it to be equal but that's not going/is happening.) He's also far more emotionally expressive in the anime than in most parts and considering the way society works as a whole- he's expected to hardly emote. But in the anime this guy cries more than what most are used to seeing. (all of..what? three times? Maybe four if you wanna look at the Stars.)

Think a lot of it has to do that the majority of us are female and so we're judging Usagi a lot more than Mamoru. (Look at any fandom. Same thing happens everywhere). It's usually subconcisously done. (Though I've got zero degrees on how the human mind works so.. go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong.)

Eh, I think in some ways it's also the setup of the story too. Usagi's given all these friends, this wonderful family- but everyone else kinda gets the short stick on these things which makes them more prone to cling to a person like Usagi. *because she's the heart and the main so..yeah.*

So, I guess, in-story, Usagi is everyone's rock but everyone isn't necessarily her rock.<- does this make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 3:56 pm

Question, what does Usagi Mamoru's rock even mean? Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 5:07 pm

It means her support. She needs him. Or he needs her. He needs her support more or she needs his support more. Basically.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   5th February 2013, 5:18 pm

Oh! Well I think they both need each other's support. They both have their own wants, needs, concerns, ect. I think any good relationship is based off of the two people's support for each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   6th February 2013, 7:46 am

I believe that Mamoru is more Usagi's rock than vice versa. There is much more evidence of him giving her the support than the other way. There are also more instances of her expressing the need of something from him, than vice versa.

About ability to function without the other - we don't see much Mamoru without Usagi. During their breakup they are both utterly miserable. However, during that time, despite being on a break, Usagi and Mamoru actually are quite a lot in contact - they randomly meet on the streets, he comes to her aid as Tuxedo Mask, they cooperate for Chibiusa. So it's really not a complete example of them being without each other.

And I can't see Stars Usagi as coping well. Yes, she never wavers in her duty as a Sailor Moon. But it can be seen how the separation burdens her and it's getting worse -as she finally starts calling his answering machine and later has a nervous breakdown.

So IMO he's more her rock , though she is definitively the light of his life.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   6th February 2013, 8:16 am

I just want to expand on what I said before:

I think they both support each other pretty equally, all in all. But to me, being a "rock" for someone means more that they are what keeps that person grounded and able to function and feeling good.

And while I agree that they are the "rock" for each other in many ways, I still think Mamoru is dependent on Usagi more than what she is of him, even if outwardly it may seem the other way around. I really think Mamoru would just go blank if he lost Usagi, while Usagi has friends and family to support her and she also has the weight of the world on her shoulders that would not allow her to give in so easily to despair. Mamoru might have some friends but I've never imagined them to be very prominent in his life.

Anyway, yes, those are my thoughts, anyway (again xD).


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   24th February 2013, 12:20 pm

It seems to me that there's strange implication that one's devotion to romantic partner is diminished by other relationship. Which IMO is very unfortunate message.

Usagi has more important relationships that Mamoru, but she also is afraid more of loneliness. Mamoru was alone without her, as he says, but still functioned as a person.

IMO, the fact that Usagi has family and close friends, yet still shows such strong need of her fiance - it's "Mamo-chan and everybody", isn't it? -is more indicative.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   24th February 2013, 6:58 pm

Mikiglasses at the very core of this series is the idea of "loneliness" all the girls besides Usagi and Mamoru deal with some kind of loneliness in their life. Usagi is this all purifying beacon who they all flock to. For simply that Usagi is everyone's rock, including Mamoru. Usagi is all embracing and kind to all who need it that's why everyone follows her around like sheep.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   9th March 2013, 1:36 pm

But I wouldn't call Usagi being their rock, though she is undoubtedly the one who breaks their loneliness. "Rock" I see as somebody who gives support, protection, help and encouragement - which I can see more from Mamoru to Usagi than vice versa.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   1st April 2013, 10:00 am

NEITHER. ENDYMION IS MINE.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Usagi Mamoru's Rock More than Mamoru is Usagi's?   25th January 2015, 8:32 pm

I am not sure I can decide right now this is actually hard for me to choose (based on my own thoughts) I feel like there is a blance. He saves her and she saves him right back. What are everyone elses thoughts as this thread hasnt had any love in awhile.

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