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PostSubject: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   18th February 2013, 10:21 am

While discussing a different theory I was reminded about my fascination with these two. I would like to hear everyone's theories on this.

Chronos/Cronus/Kronus are all greek and roman legends where he is described as a Keeper of Time, a Reaper who carries a sickle, and a is a Titan/God affiliated with the Planet of Saturn.

Hades is the god of the underworld and is associated with death, he is the SON of Chronos. Hades is affiliated with the Planet Pluto.

Sailor Pluto is said to have that of the god Chronos's veins running through her blood. Does this make her a descendant her perhaps daughter of Chronos considering she is the equivalent of Hades? Hades is the son of Chronos, but Chronos controls Time, while Hades controls death.


Hades-Guardian of the Underworld -Pluto
Chronos-Time-Pluto
Hades-Death-Saturn
Chronos-Sickle-Saturn

Their fuku's, their powers and even their princess dresses are similar. Hotaru's castle is named Titan's Castle which is funny because Saturn/Chronos is a Titan.

I wonder if this means Hotaru is Setsuna's father or ancestor someone, being's that live outside of death and time. What do you think about the connection between these two?
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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   18th February 2013, 11:08 am

I don't think they have any kind of relation per say but it is quite obvious that Naoko wanted them closely linked.

Time and Death/Rebirth are so closely connected in pretty much every culture. The concept of eternity and rebirth and reincarnation and all that jazz. I think Naoko just used Greek Mythology to connect them in a well known way.

Soul sisters FTW! <3

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   18th February 2013, 11:18 am

I love thinking about these two and their connection together. Out of all of the senshi, these two fascinate me the most because they're so powerful and different than the others. All of the mythology and intertwining connections is awesome to think about The two of them seem more like goddesses to me than all of the others (with the exception of possibly Usagi because of her extreme purity xD but yeah)

Also, I have a personal headcanon where in the past (Silver Millennium) the two of them were together in a more romantic sense, but when Saturn was reborn in the present, she is essentially a different person so she is more a family member/sister/daughter to Setsuna instead.

I didn't explain that well, so I will try again xD

I always feel like, in a way, Saturn and Hotaru are different people, just like Setsuna and Pluto are different people. So I always believed that Saturn and Pluto were involved together, while Setsuna and Hotaru (the present reincarnations of them) are not involved in such a way, and have been reincarnated in a way where they are family members instead xD

Oh I dunno. I give up explaining now xD (Although now I've just realized this is the debate/theory section and not the individual character section but I'm not deleting this now! xD)


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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   18th February 2013, 11:31 am

XD

Quote :
I always feel like, in a way, Saturn and Hotaru are different people, just like Setsuna and Pluto are different people. So I always believed that Saturn and Pluto were involved together, while Setsuna and Hotaru (the present reincarnations of them) are not involved in such a way, and have been reincarnated in a way where they are family members instead xD

That is such an awesome idea! Personally when thinking of stories I often make Hotaru Setsuna's daughter.

Mysteryloveandjustice I agree with you 100 percent, but if you could make a theory on a connection that didn't have to do with the cannon persay, what would you imagine? I must knooowwww yourrr ideeeaass!
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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 2:40 pm

Hello miss <3

I just wanted to let you know that I am going to add "theory" to your thread title. Remember, if you start a thread in this area to please add 'theory' or 'debate' to the title ^^ it's easier to keep track that way of what thread is what.

If you need any further help, I suggest this thread right here ^^

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t2991-a-reminder

<3

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 3:28 pm

Sooooo i typed all this out and then i lost it. Im kinda pissed about that but i have my thoughts in order now.

I really like Verdi's idea about Saturn and Pluto have a relationship during Silver Millennium because it explains a lot.

So Saturn dies along with the other senshi after the fall of Silver Millenium which is why they are reincarnated. But I dont think Pluto ever did. I think she lived all the way up to Crystal Tokyo and then time rewrote itself after her death and reincarnation in present day Tokyo.

So during all that time she would still have feelings for Saturn, until she meets King Endymion and falls for him.

But she only falls for him because she needed something real to direct her feelings towards. Someone she could interact with and watch live their life and know that they were ok and happy.

But she never got to close to him 1 because of NQS and them being in love, but also because she didn't feel right getting to close to him. It didn't feel right to her trying to cover up her previous feelings for Saturn and trying to love another person, so she left it at a one way feeling and she was content with that because it felt ok to her. She could still love Saturn while also fulfilling her need to see her someone else she loved living and being happy.

And then she dies after Black Moon's attack and is reincarnated. This also could bring up whether Pluto got her memories back after her present day awakening, but in my personal opinion i think she did. And because she got her memories back she didn't feel the same way about Hotaru/Saturn because they weren't the same person, but felt protective and very close to her because of their past and the fact that they all became a family after the Infinity Arc.

Which also could bring up how during the manga the outer senshi thought they were going to have to kill Hotaru before her awakening which adds to Plutos angst with her.

All in all, Pluto has waited a long time to be with Saturn again. And during all that waiting she was alone.

POOR PLUTO!!!!

so yeah thats my 100 cents..


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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 5:36 pm

I really like your ideas Stephie I have a lot of similar thoughts, although with some differences xD I shall try to explain it as eloquently as you did haha xD (which will be difficult since I always have a million differing ideas lol!)

I've always thought that Saturn and Pluto have this special closeness and are often paired together that makes it hard to overlook. And I never liked just writing it off as "Well they're the only ones left, and they're the second half of the Outers and you can't break up Haruka/Michiru" So this is what I think of for these characters to explain it xDD

I have this idea where Saturn and Pluto are more goddesses and are their own entities (I also think all of the senshi have that same kind of ethereal-never-truly-die entity within them, but I think Saturn and Pluto have it to a much greater extent where those entities are still separate old beings that live within the human part, whilst the other girls sort of are merged with those entities? o.o)

I believe that Saturn and Pluto are constantly being reborn and put in situations together where they can't ever actually *be* together, even though they have that connection and pull towards each other. They are old old beings, older than all of the other senshi entities, and they are always together in one way or another.

I believe that Saturn was still awake and conscious during the SilMill, but unable to access her powers until the three talismans are close together, almost in a sort of magical prison. They would be able to interact despite not being allowed to do so. Maybe Pluto went there as a routine check, or maybe out of guilt of putting another person in a prison that reminds her so much of her own prison?

I agree in the idea that Pluto was never killed during the Silver Millennium and continued to live on while everyone else waited to be reborn in the present, including Saturn. The Inners are awoken, though Saturn still is in slumber. Then the Black Moon arc happens, and Pluto sacrifices herself, to be reborn later on during Infinity arc and she now has another human host as Setsuna Meioh. Saturn is reborn at this time (which plays into my whole of their connected-ness) and has a human host as well in the form of Hotaru Tomoe.

Then the whole thing with the Death Busters and Mistress 9 happens, and then Saturn has to be reborn once more, but Pluto is not. This results in Saturn being much younger than Pluto (at least in their human years) and so their human sides, instead of falling in love, they love eachother in a more familial way. They are still really close, still feel connected to each other but their human forms react to that love in a different way than what the Pluto and Saturn entities generally feel. But I don't think that's a bad thing, since I think there is something special in a familial love as well as romance love <3

Oh, because of this, I think that their human forms seek out other people to "love", because it feels wrong to ever let theirselves become in love with each other since Hotaru is effectively Setsuna's daughter. Thus we see Hotaru's affection for Chibiusa and Setsuna's affection for Endymion. But throughout all of that, Saturn and Pluto still are close to one another and I think that's enough for them. And perhaps the next time they are reborn, they will have the chance to get it right.

Wow, that took a lot more words than I thought xD I'm sorry for having such a long rant!! I just have a lot of thoughts for these two because they fascinate me, and I really love them. To me, Pluto/Saturn is one of my personal canon couples, even if it is never explicitly said anywhere xD It was fun to write out my thoughts since I've never sat down and really thought it through the whole way xD


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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 5:43 pm

Oh gosh, you guys, I now have a new ship. And I totally want to write about it. >U<

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 6:10 pm

@Koanko wrote:
Oh gosh, you guys, I now have a new ship. And I totally want to write about it. >U<

Do it do it xD!!!! And if you do, please share it because I would LOVE to read it!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 6:26 pm

And it'll most likely be super sad too, because come on, this couple has so much angst material that I just cannot past up!

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 6:41 pm

I'm just trying to picture this XD in a romantical sense. Sometimes it's hard for me to see ships that aren't like, in your face obvious. Open to the idea, but trying to picture it. It would be x10 easier if Hotaru wasn't roughly around Chibiusa's age.

I do like though how Saturn and Pluto seem to have a thing for the royal family. Everybody likes the royals. Except, who likes Usagi (beyond Demando)? Anybody (PLEASE do not say Mamoru/Endymion that's not what I mean).

I'm totally going to end up being the bad one and derail the topic, but I will do my best not to. Personally, I don't mind if a topic stems another topic, it's just when said stemmed topic causes a problem I care. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 6:53 pm

I would hazard a crush with Haruka and the obvious Seiya. And Al (from the anime) and Umino (anime still).

So she's got a fair amount.
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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 6:59 pm

I'm having an easy time picturing it myself, since the Saturn I'm picturing is, well... a totally different Saturn. I mean, not an entirely different person, but a lot older.

Hm, who likes Usagi...? Minako? (come on, she's totally a little too touchy in this pic) XD

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 7:04 pm

It's still kinda hard. But interesting nonetheless. It's just fun to ship the senshi with each other. I mean, it's a series that is 98% women. It demands femslashing. XD

Perhaps, though, instead of a romantic relationship (not discounting that idea), they were cousins? And by cousins I mean actual cousins, not lesbians XD

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   21st February 2013, 7:22 pm

Titan is the largest Moon of Saturn, all castles are named for them barring Venus and Mercury.

Reading from a Japanese perspective, Saturn is not quite the same as the other three Outer Soldiers. The three are set up as the keepers of three "domains", the Sky (Uranus), the Sea (Neptune) and the Underworld (Pluto). These there planets are the modern planets as we all know (well until 2006). Saturn however is an ancient planet just like Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter. So her position in the series and connection to the other outers is very iffy, this may be why she's sent to Chibiusa's team. I think Naoko did want a connection between Pluto and Saturn, remember in the manga where Pluto is screaming Saturn's name, and certainly we see them team up a fair amount of times, but this might just be convenient pairing when Chibiusa's around Usagi.

Personally I think its most likely not a physical blood relationship, but perhaps a spiritual kindred spirits one?

Naoko has a tendency to mix many different mythologies and ideas together, its like a fun stew.

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   22nd February 2013, 6:56 am

Verdi I love your "ancient entities" idea!!

Gosh now i wanna write it xD But I also wanna see Koanko's writing of it too!! Very Happy

and Koanko, I love that photo xD

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   22nd February 2013, 2:48 pm

Sorry^^ I'll be careful next time C:

I love all these theories! YEY!

Quote :
Titan is the largest Moon of Saturn, all castles are named for them barring Venus and Mercury.

Reading from a Japanese perspective, Saturn is not quite the same as the other three Outer Soldiers. The three are set up as the keepers of three "domains", the Sky (Uranus), the Sea (Neptune) and the Underworld (Pluto). These there planets are the modern planets as we all know (well until 2006). Saturn however is an ancient planet just like Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter. So her position in the series and connection to the other outers is very iffy, this may be why she's sent to Chibiusa's team. I think Naoko did want a connection between Pluto and Saturn, remember in the manga where Pluto is screaming Saturn's name, and certainly we see them team up a fair amount of times, but this might just be convenient pairing when Chibiusa's around Usagi.

I'm not sure about the names barring Venus or Mercury. Most of the heavenly bodies in the sky were named after ancient myths, legends, or actual people. Titan was named after the Titan's which were considered giant godly beings. Many myths are the same in different cultures with slight changes here and there, but a Titan came before a god and the planet's Mercury and Venus were named after gods, not Titan's. Chronus,

I'm sad they removed Pluto's status as a Planet, since the planet has been viewed since ancient times within various ancient cultures depicting how the planets and stars move within the night sky. I always found it fascinating how in depth ancient cultures were with they knowledge of time, space and other things^^ perhaps I watch to much shows on Discovery and History but Ancient Aliens I can't get enough of!

o.o imagine if those Ancient Aliens were SAILOR MOON! I kid I kid but that would be awesome.

I agree that Saturn is not the same as the other outer's in respect of their domains, but if you think about it she too had her own domain. It was a feared and loathed domain, but in the end her power is used to bring silence when all hope is deemed lost.

Uranus controls the skies, Neptune controls the seas and Pluto controls the underworld, but the domains they were given to protect were different from the powers they govern. Queen Serenity gave both Neptune and Uranus the position of protecting the outer solar system from invaders, so I imagine their posts weren't in their castles but on the very edge of where the last planet that revolves around our sun. Pluto was given the position to protect Time and Space by the Queen and in the manga it states that the actual Gateway Pluto protects is in a place between time and space. To get to where the gateway and Pluto exist, there are only two doors, one in the Silver Millenium and one in Crystal Tokyo, or with the use of a Time Key.

Saturn's purpose was to awaken when the End neared. I've always envisioned her powers being similar to an Apocalypse because in the manga, when Metallia and Beryl brought the end of the Silver Millennium, she was awakened in order to destroy any life left.

Queen Serenity gave them these duties despite how sad and lonely they are. It's never mentioned she gives Saturn a duty, but when I think about Queen Serenity's character and how she's given all the senshi in the galaxy a purpose within the Silver Millennium, I feel as if she probably gave one to Saturn too because the Garnet Orb, the Space Sword and Deep Sea Mirror (Or Submarine Mirror, the Talismens of the manga were not specified to have come from their heart crystals or planets but given to them for the purpose of them resonating when Saturn awakens despite the objects having other capabilities)

Since the Talismens are like a warning device for when Saturn awakens to bring Ruin to the world, I imagine Queen Serenity new this, and new that a balance existed and that eventually all things come to and end. I think of it kind of like a disease only in the way that sometimes there is no cure, and no hope and sometimes it leads people to do unthinkable things that cause suffering whether with words or actions or whatever, and it either leads to suicide or a doctor "unplugging" the machine which is always a hard but sometimes unnecessary decision in order to bring an end to suffering, the unkinder part of balance.

I imagine Queen Serenity while even in the end was trying to save her loved ones, wouldn't have had the strength that Saturn's Birth power was created to do. I also imagine a power like the was feared and thus the reason why Saturn was in a deep sleep during the Silver Millennium and only awakened during a hopeless situation.

Saturn and Hotaru I agree are separate entites, we see that in the anime and manga. When Hotaru henshins into Saturn we see her at times thinking hope is lost and intends to use her power of Ruin so that the enemy can not live on despite winning, here we see usually Chibiusa reminding her to believe in Sailor Moon and not to give up hope. So as Saturn, her ability to sense a hopeless situation is less forgiving and understanding as her views as Hotaru.

This is why I think their is a deep connection to Saturn and Pluto. I imagine since Neptune and Uranus shared the same post of protecting the ends of their galaxy from outside intrusion, they often saw only each other and thus fell in love, where as Saturn and Pluto were forever alone. It was taboo to speak, see or even hear of them.

Perhaps with their similar powers and similar positions, their spirits connected somehow and they too fell in love or became kindred spirits. I can see this being possible because we see Saturn's spirit being aware despite not being seen. Whenever Hotaru isn't awakened to her powers, we see an astral form of Saturn either trying to awaken her or aware of her surroundings despite not yet being apart of the physical world. Especially I guess them means she too, as a spirit, exists outside of time and space like Pluto.

Maybe they had encounters this way?

On the note of Hotaru joining Chibiusa's team, I don't think that's canon because Chibiusa goes into the future and her team is the Amazoness Quartet. I think Hotaru deeply cares for Chibiusa, but I think Hotaru remains as a part of Usagi's team, and apart of the outer's group.

I ship Hotaru and Chibiusa, but when I think in long terms, I imagine in the future when Chibiusa is born Hotaru would be a teenager and think of Chibiusa as like a daughter.

PARADOX!

If Pluto and Saturn were kindred spirits, soul mates within the Silver Millenium, then when Pluto was reborn as Setsuna, that love was lost and when Saturn was reborn as baby Hotaru(since when Hotaru was born as Hotaru the outers initially wanted to do anything to stop the power of Saturn from awakening to end everything, even if it meant killing an innocent) then when Setsuna, Haruka and Michiru made the promise of protecting and raising her to live for a new purpose, a positin by their princess instead of away from her, that love that transitions to hate turned into Motherly Love!

THEN, as we know Chibiusa and Hotaru meet, a blossoming affection begins to bloom and grow, and this affection carries over after Hotaru is reborn as a baby because Chibiusa is the first to show her love in the physical world and openly accepts her. They continue to grow close but eventually Chibiusa must return to the future, because she can not reside in the past once she is born otherwise she'd fade from existence like we saw Sailor Moon begin to disappear when she stayed in the future to long and was to close to her future self. So once Chibiusa is born, Hotaru's affections have also turned into Motherly Love!

I love seeing patterns!

Does anyone have any other theories or ideas or comments?!?! I LOVE THEM ALL! It helps bring me out of my horrible writers block, so keep them coming!
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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   22nd February 2013, 3:03 pm

I think you misunderstood me just a little bit

I was talking about the Castles in Sailor Moon not the actual naming of the Moons in real life, the castles all named for Moons of the planets. Except for Mercury (Mariner) and Venus (Magellan) which don't have Moons so they're named after space probes that went to Mercury and Venus respectively. Titan, Io, Triton, Miranda, Io, Phobos / Deimos are all Moons of the respective planets.

Also Pluto is a modern planet, like Uranus and Neptune, it was not known by any ancient civilization because they simply did not have the technology to see that far. That is why Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are known as the "ancient" planets and the other three are "modern", "Planet" Pluto was first seen in 1960. It is especially noticeably in Japanese, because the naming system of Uranus/Neptune/Pluto is very different to Mercury/Venus/Mars/Jupiter/Saturn.

I think Pluto and Saturn do share a connection but I'm not sure if I'm onboard with them being related by blood that's all

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   22nd February 2013, 4:56 pm

^^You're right, I did misunderstand. I thought you were saying the castles were named after the greek gods -_- I have a hard time with English sorry.

Most ancient cultures did believe only in a few, although some scientists believe during antiquity Uranus was visible in the sky according the mathematics since most of the ancients knowledge on astrology came from sky gazing and mathematics.

My favorite ancient culture is Summarian, because there is very little known and what is known only baffles everyone enough to feel like what they do know can't be true. such as the fact that the Summarians documented our entire galaxy, and OTHER star cluster galaxies in their tablets, depicting them in very drawings and writing about how their gods came from one of the star clusters. What's interesting is that Summarians also talk about a 10th planet, that collided with the original Earth called Nibiru.(I Wish I had a scanner so I can upload my Sailor Nibiru!)

I often think Naoko might have consulted more then just greek, roman, western and asian cultures for Sailor Moon because in Sumarian it talks about Mashsig(Spellings prolly wrong but it describes Uranus Mashig meaning bright green, and even explain it's tilted axis) they also reference Uranus as being a twin of neptune.

The reason I think Naoko might have used Sumarian is because Summarians describe Neptune as the artful creator, and in the series Michiru is an artist^^

I know Naoko is into Astrology big time, but who knows if she ever did anything Sumarian, its fun to think about since she uses tons of different cultural references^^

The theory in my last comment Pluto and Saturn aren't related and instead are lovers. What I mean when Setsuna came to love Hotaru as a daughter is based on the manga, where Setsuna literally loves her like a daughter with Michiru and Haruka (:
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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   22nd February 2013, 5:30 pm

Naoko may not have used much of Sumerian culture but interestingly enough Junya Saiki in the Sailor Moon Musicals certainly did, a character called Dark Nibiru appears in the "Sanctuary of Love" musical. Junya Saiki is very similar to Naoko in that way, I wonder if they collaborated ideas or not... It's all quite interesting how various versions of Sailor Moon blends in different cultures and ideas together.

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   22nd February 2013, 6:07 pm

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
Chronos/Cronus/Kronus are all greek and roman legends where he is described as a Keeper of Time, a Reaper who carries a sickle, and a is a Titan/God affiliated with the Planet of Saturn.

^ This is the common misconception that leads to the confusion between Pluto and Saturn's roles. ((Read my analysis here Very Happy for a little more in depth than below))

Chronos is the ancient god of Time personified (predating even the titans, I believe; while Uranus was born of Gaia (delivered after Chaos left) I think Chronos existed beside and outside of them? Idk)). Like calendars and years stuff; pretty much "father time".

Cronus is the titan (father of the greek pantheon of gods) of harvest and happens to be associated with a specific span of time known as the 'Golden Age'. The sickle is his because sickles are used to harvest wheat and other grains; his association with death is tied to the ending of the harvest, and thus the death of the plants. But then he's also associated with the new life of a field after a hard winter, thus death and rebirth.

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
Hades is the god of the underworld and is associated with death, he is the SON of Chronos((Cronus)). Hades is affiliated with the Planet Pluto.
Hades/Pluto (and his brothers Zeus/Jupiter and Poseidon/Neptune) were the sons of Cronus, true, but Cronus is the son of Uranus, so this whole theory could be expanded beyond the Pluto/Saturn relationship to the entire outers family. : )



OTHERWISE I LOVE THE HEADCANON FLOWING IN THIS POST AND ALL THE TALK OF ANCIENT ASTRONOMY. Yes. Good.

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   23rd February 2013, 1:49 pm

Can I point out that several of the Olympian Gods are fathered by Chronus/Chronos? So by that logic, Pluto would be related to Jupiter and Neptune as well. (It always bugged me that Setsuna was his only mentioned daughter...)
Anyway, I agree with you on most points mentioning their similarities and ties, but I don't think they're related at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   23rd February 2013, 1:53 pm

I think Setsuna is said to be the daughter of chronos because
she wasn't really reincarnated. And when she died, she just turned back to her 20 years old looking self
Chronos is her birth father.

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   23rd February 2013, 2:05 pm

You know for some reason I never tok the Chronos Father thing as real fact, I always thought she was speaking symbolically

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PostSubject: Re: Theory: Pluto and Saturn   4th March 2013, 3:08 pm

Quote :
OTHERWISE I LOVE THE HEADCANON FLOWING IN THIS POST AND ALL THE TALK OF ANCIENT ASTRONOMY. Yes. Good.

Me too^^!!!! I love theories! Sometimes I end up making my head hurt though lol

It'd be cool if Chronos was the father of them all. they already act like sisters. Although that'd be weird for Uranus and Neptune but then again that was very common in mythology for siblings to get together lol TOO DEEP brain fried!

Another theory could be since Chronos is Setsuna's father, Queen Serenity could be a being like Chronos. Since mythology was just an inspiration factor for Naoko and she changed aspects of certain myths like Selene the goddess, 50 kids and Endymoin the Shepard, maybe we should look at it like that?

I dunno I'm having a hard time coming up with new theories for this. We've already discussed the possibility of mother daughter and lovers but my creativity is lacking and I can't think of much else XD lol someone else needs to put down more ideas!

As for the Pluto and Chronos relationship it could be just symbolically but Chibiusa said that Chronos was the one true father of Sailor Pluto so I dunno :/ sounds more literal to me
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