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 [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.

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PostSubject: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Thu 11 Aug - 4:49

Ok, so one thing kind of iffed me through out the entire sailor moon world. I'll break it down into categories starting with anime, manga, and live action [I haven't seen the musicals, so they're left out].

In the anime:

We know that the Earth and Moon kingdoms were destroyed and that everyone died and got sent back to Earth by Queen Serenity to be reborn. Serenity loved Endymion, and that was a chain reaction that lead to destruction and rebirth. They have their normal lives, up until Luna finds Usagi, then Mamoru and Usagi continue to bump into each other. When Usagi becomes Sailor Moon, and Mamoru, Tuxedo Mask, they meet and fall in love with each other and eventually find out who they are, and that they share a past connection together. Tuxedo mask takes a nasty blow for Sailor moon, and forces Usagi to awaken her past self as Serenity, thus triggering Mamoru's memory as Endymion.

BUT WHY DO THEY STILL LOVE EACH OTHER. IT'S LIKE THEY'RE FORCED TO BECAUSE OF THEIR PAST LIVES. Mars hated how their current lives was dictated by something in the past, and truly hated the position it put not only on herself, but everyone too. In the anime, it seemed they were only together because they both had remembered their past together. Ok, while that's all nice and stuff, and really romantic, that's also kind of implausible. Mamoru seemed to only have one reason to stay with Usagi, and that's because of their past life. Same for Usagi. Is that it? There's nothing else the writers gave in the anime, other than that she was Serenity and he was Endymion. Um, ok and? I know I wouldn't stay with a guy like that unless I had reasons, not because I knew him when I was younger.

They regard their relationship as sad and fateful. I mean yeah I get it, it's a fated love story, but what would have happened if he stayed with Rei? Or if Usagi actually dated Motoki? I didn't like how the past kept being so persistent and restraining on the senshi's love lives. And I also hated how they shoved the "fateful love story" down your throat pretty much every season.


----


In the manga:

Mamoru is slain, as well as everyone, so Usagi kills herself too. The Queen looks at everyone dead, cries, then uses the gizenshou, then dies too. They're reborn, live a new life, and the same thing kind of happens again. They meet, learn each other's identities, Mamoru is slain, Usagi awakens, they remember their past lives BUT...

THEY DEPICT THEIR RELATIONSHIP SO MUCH MORE IN THE MANGA. WTF HAPPENED TO THIS? There are so many beautiful, funny, and MOVING panels I could show, but then this would turn into a picture thread.

THIS IS SO MUCH MORE PLAUSIBLE. IT'S JUST SO TOUCHING AND BEAUTIFUL.

Sadly, though, Mamoru is possessed, and Sailor Moon attempts to kill him and take her life at the same time. However, they don't die [one of the rocks of the shitennou protect Mamoru and the pocket watch protects Usagi] and they're enveloped in the gizenshou.

EVEN WHEN THEY WAKE UP IS SO... AUHHHH. Beautiful. They should have shown their relationship like this rather than the half ass job they did in the anime.

In the manga, it shows the reader that they're not together because of the past, but because of who they truly are. Strong, loving, caring, loyal, majestic, strong willed, determined, courageous... I could go on and on.


-----


In the live action:

After having Endymion slain in front of her eyes, Serenity cries out and releases the power of the gizenshou, making the Moon and Earth blow up. They're reborn again after centuries, BUT AGAIN, ONLY AFTER LUNA MEETS USAGI, DOES MAMORU RUN INTO HER. Yadda yadda yadda, learn their identities, same stuff, Mamoru is slain [POOR MAMORU, WHY DO THEY ALWAYS ABDUCT AND KILL HIM? LOL] Usagi awakens, Mamoru is taken again [you know, forget Poor Usagi, POOR MAMORU LMAO] and Mamoru is all WE'RE ENEMIES KK!? [SNIFFLE] and Usagi is all Y U DO DAT. Y U LIE 2 M3? I PRETEND NAO KEHEHE.. ahem. Anyway, they fight, Usagi has a panic attack and starts moon turds that makes the Earth wig out. Mamoru calms her.

HOWEVER, SHE HAS TO KILL HIM CAUSE HE DID WHAT GALAXIA DID IN THE ANIME AND SEALED METALLIA INSIDE HIMSELF. However, it had the same effect. He turned evil, so Usagi had to kill him. AND THEN ONCE MORE, SHE BLEW UP THE WORLD.

However, they at least SHOWED THE VIEWERS that they weren't together because of the past, but because they had actually gotten to know one another, and care for one another. Mamoru and Usagi, despite being told it's their fault for the earth and moon's destruction in the past, make a vow not to let their mistakes happen again [yeah it happens again, but then Usagi uses her power a second time to save the earth and all is well.]

They even had special episodes after that that show Usagi and Mamoru engaged [I really liked that a lot.]


---

So the real question is, were they together because they remembered their past lives, or did they fall in love all over again despite knowing their past? Was it true love, or was it more of a forced love from the past?

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Thu 11 Aug - 14:27

I've always been mixed about this. On one hand, it's always seemed to be that Usagi was WAY more into Mamoru than he was into her; on the other hand, there are times that Mamoru is kind of like a lost puppy who looks to Usagi for strength and guidance, and who is definitely in love with her.

As for the destined romance vs. real romance thing, I think it's a combination of the two. They both figure, "Hey, this has already been decided, and the other one isn't bad looking and I like them, so I'll go for it!" At least that's kind of the feel I get from it. Mamoru in particular seems to struggle more with the concept of his romance being decided for him, in his past, present, and future forms, than Usagi ever does. It's definitely an interesting dynamic.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Thu 11 Aug - 14:32

I believe in the beginning of their "awakened" relationship, they were leaning towards the whole "destined romance" deal... But then as their relationship seemed to grow it became a real romance.

However, I feel those two would have been happy (if not happier) with others in their lives also. It's just Usagi finds it so easy to love and Mamoru probably wants to be loved by someone.

For me, I'm more cynical about the relationship in the anime than in the manga.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Thu 11 Aug - 15:26

I think with the anime is that Usagi was starting to fall in love with Tuxedo Mask before she even knew who he was or their previous identities. Usagi never once showed an ability at being proactive in remembering her past life. There was a time period where Mamoru didn't know he was Tuxedo Mask so he was also kind of falling for Sailor Moon by always having this feeling to be there for her and protect her. I think the problem is finally when Usagi and Mamoru have a cute close moment together, when they are in the elevator before they reveal each others identities, they don't get a chance to get to know each other again. That was a small moment that showed they were getting to know each other and Usagi wasn't looking at him as that "dumb jerk".

So then we have the R season, where Mamoru has lost his memory for the Doom Tree Arc (pardon me for not using the japanese name but i can't remember it exactly at the moment). Usagi has her memory and is trying to get him back. There are some cute episodes of them together where he is kind of getting to know Usagi, etc. Like the one where they get stuck with the baby. (Also is it just me or does anyone think its weird that Mamoru was never like "why the hell are these junior high girls always hanging around me?" I guess he figured since they knew Motoki it was ok? lols who knows).

So he gets his memory back, yay, blah blah. Then we have the break up. Ok god the ever so hated break up. The only thing that the break up does for me is show how much Mamoru loves Usagi. Especially the scenes where you see him cry while thinking about being away from her and having to hurt her. When they finally get back together, you can tell he is really happy too.

I think from there on out in the later seasons, you see how Usagi and Mamoru get to act in public as a regular couple. The problem with anime Mamoru is his personality compared to manga Mamoru. animeMamoru is really stand offish, quiet, and reserved kind of guy. Especially in public. However, I don't think his love for Usagi is forced in the anime. The anime just does a bad job of showing it.


I think we can all agree on this: The anime did a terrible job on showing Usagi and Mamoru's relationship with each other while the manga and PGSM did a WAY better job at it.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Thu 11 Aug - 17:49

@Brit-chan wrote:
I think we can all agree on this: The anime did a terrible job on showing Usagi and Mamoru's relationship with each other while the manga and PGSM did a WAY better job at it.


Agreed, but during the break up scene, he even said [yes to hurt her but still] that they were together because of their past lives. I don't know, it seemed like since they were in love before, that they HAD to be together. Usagi had many crushes on many guys, including Mamoru, and let's not forget animeSeiya.

The anime made it seem that way to me, especially since Mamoru was all, OMG UR SO DUMB SIGH like all the time. You know what, screw the anime, although nice to watch, I prefer the manga and live action.

They had so many pointless filler episodes, so why couldn't they take those out and put in some nice love stories for Usagi and Mamoru. They have one nice date scene, then ChibiUsa pops in and decides to cock block. I mean, it's frustrating to watch, but when you do get to those small scenes, it's really nice to watch.

BOTTOM LINE TO MY RANT IS THIS:

WHEN IT COMES TO THE DEPICTION OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP, NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR PAST LIVES TOGETHER, BUT BECAUSE THEY GET TO KNOW WHO THEY ARE TOGETHER..

Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon : 8.5 points.
Manga : 10 points.
Anime: 6.5 points.

And I'm just not happy with the anime pushing their past love into every episode but fail to put in a good romantic filler episode. :/

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Thu 11 Aug - 21:32

Sailor Venus wrote:
And I'm just not happy with the anime pushing their past love into every episode but fail to put in a good romantic filler episode. :/

Here here!!!

Srsly the whole chibi usa butting in was ANNOYING. But during the break up, i think the only reason Mamoru mentioned their past lives was just to try to find something to hurt Usagi to try to get it through her head. But she's so stubborn so it didn't work. lols.

I also thought the episode with Usagi's birthday was rather cute. Mamo-chan gets her the shoes she wants after he realizes he "forgot" her birthday, which turns out to be Usagi's fault because she never told him when her birthday was. HAH.

I don't think Usagi had a crush on Seiya in the anime. She had feelings for him, yeah. But i think its in the same way she loves all her friends. But its been a while since I've watched that season so maybe I'm just forgetting how their interaction was.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Fri 12 Aug - 0:36

Yeah, I found their anime relationship so wildly problematic. I couldn't really find the chemistry, in contrast to even the small part of the manga that I've read, which was kind of a revelation in terms of being able to believe that they might actually like each other, wow...

But the anime. Aaaah. Also, people getting together in their teens and then staying together foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer. Hmmmmmm. I mean, of course it can happen, but Usagi doesn't feel nearly emotionally mature enough to really know what she's doing in that respect. I feel like she should've been allowed to get past her whole sparkly-eyed teenage crush before getting all the "destined romance" stuff flung at her - as it is I almost feel like she's more in love with the idea of the whole thing than with Mamoru, and Mamoru seems to be in some kind of almost parental roll around her, and it really isn't working for me.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Fri 12 Aug - 1:00

There was romantic filler episodes with Seiya and Usagi than with Mamoru. That kinda was like... "really? you'll put a cross dressing senshi with Usagi, but not with the person she's destined to be with? I don't even...."


EXACTLY. THERE WAS LITTLE NEXT TO NO CHEMISTRY. Auhg. Fail animators/writers are fail.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Mon 29 Aug - 2:50

@Brit-chan wrote:
I think with the anime is that Usagi was starting to fall in love with Tuxedo Mask before she even knew who he was or their previous identities. Usagi never once showed an ability at being proactive in remembering her past life. There was a time period where Mamoru didn't know he was Tuxedo Mask so he was also kind of falling for Sailor Moon by always having this feeling to be there for her and protect her. I think the problem is finally when Usagi and Mamoru have a cute close moment together, when they are in the elevator before they reveal each others identities, they don't get a chance to get to know each other again. That was a small moment that showed they were getting to know each other and Usagi wasn't looking at him as that "dumb jerk".

(...)

So he gets his memory back, yay, blah blah. Then we have the break up. Ok god the ever so hated break up. The only thing that the break up does for me is show how much Mamoru loves Usagi. Especially the scenes where you see him cry while thinking about being away from her and having to hurt her. When they finally get back together, you can tell he is really happy too.

I think from there on out in the later seasons, you see how Usagi and Mamoru get to act in public as a regular couple. The problem with anime Mamoru is his personality compared to manga Mamoru. animeMamoru is really stand offish, quiet, and reserved kind of guy. Especially in public. However, I don't think his love for Usagi is forced in the anime. The anime just does a bad job of showing it.


I think we can all agree on this: The anime did a terrible job on showing Usagi and Mamoru's relationship with each other while the manga and PGSM did a WAY better job at it.

I never watched the live actions - i don't know, I never felt like I should watch it, so, I can't opine on it - but about the manga/anime I can and that's why the manga is canon to me - because it really shows what Naoko wanted us to understand about that world that she created but then, it was butchered and when you watch it after having read the manga, you see how terrible the anime was and how it ruined some characters -if not all of them!

I agree with Brit-chan, Usagi started to fall for Tuxedo Mask first, without knowing who he was. Maybe because she was always saved by him and well, she was this heroine who knew nothing about fighting and was a cry baby and yet, there was someone who believed in her. And when Rei started to go out with Mamoru, even though he was a jerk to Usagi, she was jealous about their relationship. It could be simply because he was Motoki's friend or the guy who was the opposite of her, always remarking how she wasn't good enough but however, there was something about him that she didn't know what it was.

I overanalyze anime/manga/book/movies characters. My hobby, sorry!



@Brit-chan wrote:
Sailor Venus wrote:
And I'm just not happy with the anime pushing their past love into every episode but fail to put in a good romantic filler episode. :/

Here here!!!

Srsly the whole chibi usa butting in was ANNOYING. But during the break up, i think the only reason Mamoru mentioned their past lives was just to try to find something to hurt Usagi to try to get it through her head. But she's so stubborn so it didn't work. lols.

(...)

I don't think Usagi had a crush on Seiya in the anime. She had feelings for him, yeah. But i think its in the same way she loves all her friends. But its been a while since I've watched that season so maybe I'm just forgetting how their interaction was.

Thank you! I like Chibiusa, specially when she's just THEIR DAUGHTER, not the annoying brat who has an Electra complex (mother/daughter competition for possession of the father's love/attention; i'm not bringing the whole Freudian/Jungian discussion and anyway, not the point!) and keeps on interrupting their dates or simply making Mamoru be around her all the time.

About the break up, I feel exactly the same - what was the best way to hurt someone you have feelings for? Mamoru knew where hers and HIS feelings where, the root. He needed to convince himself that the current feelings he had for Usagi (note, Usagi and not Sailor Moon/Serenity) were only because his past as Endymion and he, Chiba Mamoru, didn't feel anything about Usagi. Obviously, it was his rational self trying to sabotage his heart, but several times he let himself being held by Usagi's arm when she needed some comfort and then he would snap and remember about how he couldn't love her.

If there's any Usagi/Seiya shipper here, I'm sorry for what I'll say (it's my opinion and I'm not trying to ruin your pairing, please, understand it! Smile ) but I never got where they had a bound or just an infatuation. I mean, SEIYA was the one who was infatuated by Usagi, but it was one sided, Usagi always made clear that she had a fiance whom she loved a lot and they were friends and she cared about Seiya a lot. NGL, there were moments when Seiya used the right words to get Usagi's feelings, but it doesn't mean that she was in love with him.


@Toft wrote:
Yeah, I found their anime relationship so wildly problematic. I couldn't really find the chemistry, in contrast to even the small part of the manga that I've read, which was kind of a revelation in terms of being able to believe that they might actually like each other, wow...

But the anime. Aaaah. Also, people getting together in their teens and then staying together foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer. Hmmmmmm. I mean, of course it can happen, but Usagi doesn't feel nearly emotionally mature enough to really know what she's doing in that respect. I feel like she should've been allowed to get past her whole sparkly-eyed teenage crush before getting all the "destined romance" stuff flung at her - as it is I almost feel like she's more in love with the idea of the whole thing than with Mamoru, and Mamoru seems to be in some kind of almost parental roll around her, and it really isn't working for me.

I know, in real life, several couples who are together since their teen years, including my brother and his girlfriend (they're thinking about getting married soon! Smile ) and yeah, it can work, of course, but I also understand what you mean - i've been on a relationship that started when i was 16 and i got engaged and we almost got married when I was 23, so, yeah, it didn't work out; but back to the bolded part, that's another thing that makes me cringe about the anime: how Usagi is the goofy one ALL THE TIME and at the manga, wow, you can see how she is mature, like the other senshis, compared to girls around their age. How their constant battles and knowledge made them all mature and until Sailor Moon S, we see Usagi being a cry baby. That's another thing that the anime f*cked up.

Sailor Venus wrote:
There was romantic filler episodes with Seiya and Usagi than with Mamoru. That kinda was like... "really? you'll put a cross dressing senshi with Usagi, but not with the person she's destined to be with? I don't even...."


EXACTLY. THERE WAS LITTLE NEXT TO NO CHEMISTRY. Auhg. Fail animators/writers are fail.

THANK YOU!



The biggest problem, for me, is that the producers wanted Sailor Moon to be suitable for girls from ages that weren't actually in the range that the manga was, they wanted to sell merch. Although we could see homosexual relationships (Zoicite/Kunzite, for an example), we were denied the chance to see how Naoko wanted the girls to be, the sexual/romantic independence which is allowed to women to have. Yes, Japan was a very traditional country, there were taboos and everything, but they should have kept some things the way Naoko portraited them - specially the whole friendship and love that Mamoru and Usagi had for each other, despite their past lives.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Wed 31 Aug - 13:07

i've always thought of this but to me i think they truly did love each other. in the manga it shows how he was falling for her even before they found out each others true identity.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Fri 2 Sep - 8:41

In the live action, you see Usagi and Serenity as two different people. Usagi is still herself, and Serenity is just like, a memory. They blended that, although well, in the anime, I still was leaning on what the live action did. My point is, regardless of who they were in the past, was it really true love?

Anime? No, not really. A few romantic scenes isn't enough to convince me.
Manga? Um, a big HELL YES.
Live? Yes!

So out of all the remakes and whatnot, why did the anime fail to depict their TRUE love for one another while the live did a better job?


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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Fri 2 Sep - 16:48

The answer I've seen to this question is usually "because it was made by men."

The manga was written by Naoko, a very strong woman, and she made Mamoru out to be an ideal male form to herself, since only the best man ever conceived could possibly be worthy of the title "Sailor Moon's Boyfriend."

Naoko didn't have any control over how the anime panned out. A bunch of dudes who previously had no reason to consider what would be ideal or even comfortable for a real woman got together, took Naoko's story, and twisted it around so it made more sense to them. Rei had to be boy-crazy and chase after Mamoru because she was a girl and her "meanness" served as a foil to Usagi's character. Mamoru had to be a MAYUN and have no idea what them crazy broads were thinking. Haruka and Michiru had to be hawt-raunchy and stare at each other all the time while rose petals flew past. DC's universe reboot and general lack of female knowledge (or employment...) is another example of this phenomenon.

It got better in the live action because that was the first television application of the series where Naoko actually had control. I see the live action as an attempt to fix a few things the anime completely botched.
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Tue 6 Sep - 13:11

Quote :
Agreed, but during the break up scene, he even
said [yes to hurt her but still] that they were together because of
their past lives.

I don't think he really meant what he said about them only being together because of their past lives. It was just a way to break up wit her. Because didn't he say that in his apartment with his back to turn to her? If I'm correct he had painful look in his eyes when he said that.

But yes the anime should have explore their love lives a bit more. The manga definitely explores it more which is why the first arch is my favorite despite the fast pace. As in PGSM yes I agree with you they showed it better than the anime. I even like how they made Mamoru engaged to another girl. Heck I like the fact that they show Makoto and Motoki liking each other. It showed the girls are living their normal lives despite being soldiers.

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Mon 26 Sep - 23:36

Just to go on a more obvious level, YES Usagi and Mamoru's relationship was more touching in the manga. But so was everything in the manga. So I'm going to set that aside. And I've never actually seen the Live Action, so I'm only going to speak on the anime.

In my opinion, I think that Usagi and Mamoru, in the beginning, had the typical "love/hate relationship thing" that producers of SEVERAL tv shows love to put into the works, which can always be rocky. However, in those few episodes of squabbling and annoyances, you can see Usagi's jealousy when Rei is "dating" Mamoru. You can see the fact that after a while, Mamoru is not just "getting hit in the head with a paper ball" anymore. He wants to see Usagi. He wants to have that one moment of annoyance with her.

Now of course, this doesn't mean that they are in love. Of course not. But you can obviously see that there are hints of tension and flirtation. He wants to see Usagi. She wants to see Mamoru. done deal, which brings me to the "realizations of their destinies." First of all, before anyone discovers anything, we have the elevator scene, which is one of the CUTEST scenes I've ever seen. They basically established the fact they don't think of each other as annoying, but in reality they care for each other. Mamoru is protecting her from the moment he steps in that tower to the moment he's struck by Zoisite. A guy who strictly just wants the Silver Crystal ISN'T going to do that. If he didn't care about Usagi he would have just said, OH SHE'S SAILOR MOON? Okay bye bye. XD

After all of this buildup and flirtation, we FINALLY get Serenity and Endymion. This was pretty the finalization of their feelings. The fact that they are past lovers solidified that they belonged together. I didn't hear once from either of them that they loved each other in that scene. NOT ONCE. Just because they know about their past doesn't mean they were HEAD OVER HEELS immediately. My take was that they knew the truth and that they were happy that they could be closer, which is want they wanted in the first place.

When it boils down to it, its not about fateful love stories or fantasy lands. It's about Destiny. Usagi met Mamoru for a reason, just as she met Rei, Ami, Makoto and Minako in the 1st season. Mamoru wasn't having dreams just because he was in accident. Usagi didn't fall in love at first sight with Tuxedo Mask just because she's boy crazy. It was because of their pasts.

I actually think this is one of the best and main parts of the whole series. Destiny is all around you. Who knows what will happen next that will be something that will stay with you for the rest of your life.

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Nina
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Tue 27 Sep - 5:54

@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
In my opinion, I think that Usagi and Mamoru, in the beginning, had the typical "love/hate relationship thing"
Yes and their little tango (two lovers engaged in teasing and quarrel but at the same time desire) theme is not fooling anyone.
@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
However, in those few episodes of squabbling and annoyances, you can see Usagi's jealousy when Rei is "dating" Mamoru.

Even Luna quickly notices that jelousy. Usagi is jealous and it's not because Rei got a "boyfriend", it's because that "boyfriend" is Mamoru. Remember episode 31? When Ami tells her Rei got a date, she reacts like this:
Spoiler:
 
But then it's like she suddenly remembers Mamoru is Rei's date:
Spoiler:
 
@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
You can see the fact that after a while, Mamoru is not just "getting hit in the head with a paper ball" anymore. He wants to see Usagi. He wants to have that one moment of annoyance with her.
Exactly. You have one paper ball and two shoes but the rest of those encounters happened because they wanted them to happen. They talk to each other because they want to. Mamoru is the one who usually talks to her first but Usagi also initiates the conversation sometimes. And let's look at their last "quarrel" (not counting the ones after the memory loss):
Spoiler:
 
Usagi is acting pretty friendly, still teasing, but friendly. During the elevator scene, Mamoru smiles to himself and wonders out loud why he's telling her about his personal life. It shows how confortable he actually is around her. Even Yumemi Yumeno, the shy artist, teases Usagi and implies she has some feelings for Mamoru.
Spoiler:
 
And Usagi thinks Mamoru is handsome before that scene. Wink
And let's look at what they actually say during those quarrels. At first they simply argue like two strangers. Skip a couple of episodes and it seems like Mamoru's favorite teasing subject is Usagi's love life: she'll never find a boyfriend, only an idiot would love her (oh the irony), the "date" with Umino, Tuxedo Kamen's love letter, Motoki loving her like a little sister, etc. It gets more and more personal.
They were not in love with each other before the reveal, in my opinion, but they were deeply attracted to each other. Mamoru also acts like he's attracted to her and actually cares about her during his memory loss in R.
@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
It's about Destiny. Usagi met Mamoru for a reason, just as she met Rei, Ami, Makoto and Minako in the 1st season. Mamoru wasn't having dreams just because he was in accident. Usagi didn't fall in love at first sight with Tuxedo Mask just because she's boy crazy. It was because of their pasts.
Agreed.
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Sailor Lily
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Mon 28 Apr - 20:19

@Nina wrote:
@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
In my opinion, I think that Usagi and Mamoru, in the beginning, had the typical "love/hate relationship thing"
Yes and their little tango (two lovers engaged in teasing and quarrel but at the same time desire) theme is not fooling anyone.
@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
However, in those few episodes of squabbling and annoyances, you can see Usagi's jealousy when Rei is "dating" Mamoru.
 
Even Luna quickly notices that jelousy. Usagi is jealous and it's not because Rei got a "boyfriend", it's because that "boyfriend" is Mamoru. Remember episode 31? When Ami tells her Rei got a date, she reacts like this:
Spoiler:
 
But then it's like she suddenly remembers Mamoru is Rei's date:
Spoiler:
 
@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
You can see the fact that after a while, Mamoru is not just "getting hit in the head with a paper ball" anymore. He wants to see Usagi. He wants to have that one moment of annoyance with her.
Exactly. You have one paper ball and two shoes but the rest of those encounters happened because they wanted them to happen. They talk to each other because they want to. Mamoru is the one who usually talks to her first but Usagi also initiates the conversation sometimes. And let's look at their last "quarrel" (not counting the ones after the memory loss):
Spoiler:
 
Usagi is acting pretty friendly, still teasing, but friendly. During the elevator scene, Mamoru smiles to himself and wonders out loud why he's telling her about his personal life. It shows how confortable he actually is around her. Even Yumemi Yumeno, the shy artist, teases Usagi and implies she has some feelings for Mamoru.
Spoiler:
 
And Usagi thinks Mamoru is handsome before that scene. Wink
And let's look at what they actually say during those quarrels. At first they simply argue like two strangers. Skip a couple of episodes and it seems like Mamoru's favorite teasing subject is Usagi's love life: she'll never find a boyfriend, only an idiot would love her (oh the irony), the "date" with Umino, Tuxedo Kamen's love letter, Motoki loving her like a little sister, etc. It gets more and more personal.
They were not in love with each other before the reveal, in my opinion, but they were deeply attracted to each other. Mamoru also acts like he's attracted to her and actually cares about her during his memory loss in R.
@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
It's about Destiny. Usagi met Mamoru for a reason, just as she met Rei, Ami, Makoto and Minako in the 1st season. Mamoru wasn't having dreams just because he was in accident. Usagi didn't fall in love at first sight with Tuxedo Mask just because she's boy crazy. It was because of their pasts.
Agreed.

Totally agreed!

When Motoki calls Usagi Kawaii in episode 29, Mamoru goes all sweaty and nervous and points out that he has Reika.
Then there was the time when she asks Motoki and Mamoru (Not really Mamoru) about what she should do about Naru liking a bad person. Mamoru told her to tell her the truth and her cheeks turned to a nice pink shade.
Also in the elevator, Usagi was blushing like crazy!

Pic:
 

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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Sun 15 Mar - 4:15

My two cents:

Anime: Their relationship seems forced by destiny and Mamoru constantly acts like Usagi's babysitter

Manga: Their relationship is too perfect.Correct me if i'm wrong, i never really recall them arguing or dis-agreeing on anything.

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JupiterThunderCrash
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PostSubject: Re: [Debate] The love of Serenity/Usagi and Endymion/Mamoru.   Sun 15 Mar - 7:51

I think they do have problems in the manga though. During the Dream arc, Mamoru hides his heath problems and snaps at Usagi to keep her away from him (so she doesn't catch it too). She gets upset by this, but eventually she realizes whats going on and he admits to the problem. And then she gets sick anyway, but that's not really the point. XD

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