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 Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 8:41 am

I think it was reasonable for Neo-Queen Serenity to expect for Usagi to act more like a big sister, than a mother. I mean, Neo-Queen Serenity was once a 15 year-old Usagi, too. Tori's right in pointing out that the Tsukinos were available and likely involved.

Perhaps due to circumstances in Crystal Tokyo, Neo-Queen Serenity was unable to give her child the type of relationship she wanted, so she hoped that at least Chibiusa and Usagi could grow close. I'm almost positive that Chibiusa would have been unintentionally sheltered in Crystal Tokyo due to uncontrollable circumstances. The past may have been her best shot at forging close relationships with the sailor senshi and new friends. Besides, what better way to train as a sailor senshi than to be surrounded by nine other veteran sailor senshi, who do have the time to help you? The sailor senshi in the future may have not had the time to help Sailor Chibi Moon, but the sailor senshi in the past would have the time.

I think future Usagi would likely do something similar. I mean, you have to admit, they did eventually grow very close. I doubt Usagi would ever want to give up her relationship with Chibiusa, which was formed due in part due to the frequent, extended visits.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 9:04 am

Sailor Venus wrote:
Besides, what better way to train as a sailor senshi than to be surrounded by nine other veteran sailor senshi, who do have the time to help you? The sailor senshi in the future may have not had the time to help Sailor Chibi Moon, but the sailor senshi in the past would have the time.

"For in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war" - Warhammer 40000's tagline.

Now imagine that just how dark the future has to be so that they can't properly train the next generation?

I'm more inclined to believe that there is no in-universe reason other than maintaining a stable time loop. Which is iffy, but that's Sailor Moon.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 9:06 am

Well, maybe not quite so dark, but I was rather suggesting the sailor senshi may not have the time available for Sailor Chibi-Moon. You have to admit... Crystal Tokyo likely has far-reaching political influence. The sailor senshi may be too busy with political and diplomatic responsibilities and the like to attend to Sailor Chibi-Moon's training.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 10:15 am

Dunno... what you describe sounds likea crippled society. Where are the old-fashioned diplomats? For it to be an utopia, it can't afford to relegate every important duty to the senshi. They are, for all intents and purposes, "brawn". Magical brawn, but still, they almost always apply brute force. In modern society, diplomatic tasks are almost universally considered to be intellectual positions.

Two of the senshi, Venus(not you!) and Moon(not you! NQS) are shown (in the show) as having a bit of a deficency in attention for starters...

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 12:40 pm

Don't forget Mercury and maybe Pluto, if she were allowed. I say Pluto because she's always presented as a more level headed person that can be also objective.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 1:01 pm

That's two out of the ten senshi who have any reason to be in the general vicinity of a responsible leading position.

I say that debunks the theory that there isn't anyone who has time for the small lady. Maybe if they actually decided to pursue their careers, (which they might have done, we don't know) then it'd have merit.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 2:36 pm

Also, no one in the series ever showed any interest in a political position. How hard would it really be to find people who were actually interested/qualified to be diplomats

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 2:49 pm

Well the diplomacy would be that Crystal Tokyo is the kingdom in charge and they are responsible for creating peace within the galaxy, so far reaching apparently that even Kinmoku said that the union between Mamoru and Usagi was felt throughout the galaxy as well as the millenia of peace that would result from it. In a sense that is a political aspect of the show as we see different kingdoms communicating and the various alliences within the series such as how Earth wasn't politically ready to be apart of the Silver Millennium in the past and it resulted in war, but in the future political differences are set aside and the Earth joins in a new era of peace under the rule of both the Moon and the Earth
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 3:14 pm

^It's so sweet, IT GIVES ME CAVITIES

(seriously, felt across the galaxy? the thought sickens me.)

And it has what to do with diplomats being senshi or non-senshi?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 3:23 pm

@Boromonokli wrote:
^It's so sweet, IT GIVES ME CAVITIES

(seriously, felt across the galaxy? the thought sickens me.)

And it has what to do with diplomats being senshi or non-senshi?

THere way probably a nicer way for you to ask that, but I think that Nerf was saying that in the inter-galactic sphere, it would be better for a senshi, with their respected role in the universe, to be the ones to make connections and do all the political stuff

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 3:29 pm

Quote :

^It's so sweet, IT GIVES ME CAVITIES

(seriously, felt across the galaxy? the thought sickens me.)


Have you finished even reading or watching the series yet? somewhere someone said you didn't so I don't understand why you even debate anything. In order to debate you need all the information available on said subject.

Considering how most of your comments are, you don't like the series much at all or anything happy-feeling which makes me baffled at your presence here when discussing Sailor Moon related things other then trying to start fights and being rude.

When it comes to diplomats, it could be any of the senshi or it could be Luna, Artemis and Diana or it could be the King and Queen, or their daughter once she matures. Anyone of them has the cababilty of being politcal diplomats.

Noun
An official representing a country abroad.
A person who can deal with people in a sensitive and effective way.


Considering this, any one of them could be cabable of being a diplomat for Crystal Tokyo

Thank you Saturn^^
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 3:41 pm

Okay firstly, I thought we were talking about whether or not Chibiusa staying in the past was fair. How did we get on the topic of politics and all that other stuff in Crystal Tokyo? o.o

Next, I would like to point out this little piece from the rules:

Neo Queen Serenity wrote:
[*]Not all members speak English as their primary language. If you possibly misunderstood a comment from a member, send them a PM requesting clarification, or contact the sections Moderator. BE POLITE.

It is IMPERATIVE that you guys remember this. Because this does not only relate to those that speak English as a second language, but the way people can come off on the internet as well. You may think another person is being rude, but in reality, they very well may not be. With the loss of tones and facial expressions over the internet, I realize it is hard to judge whether or not someone is being rude (unless they outright use rude words), but you must do your best to remember that communication on the internet is tricky. Don't automatically assume someone is being mean or rude unless they are explicitly using mean/rude/hurtful words (in which case, report it immediately). Okay? ^^

That is all my dears. Get back on the main topic Razz don't derail too much anymore, ya sillies.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 3:51 pm

I opt to disagree with you Nerf, if for nothing else then for fairness alone. (Thanks Saturn, I wanted to ask for a clarification, no offense meant) Because it's just not fair to leave humanity out of this. (at least in my book)

Not that humanity is in any way relevant to the future other than being candidates to be corrupted, if the black moon clan is any indication. Which is another tangent, of course.

(sorry for that beryl (?)quote)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 3:56 pm

Sorry bout that, Mars! Hopefully this is more on-topic.

Let's say NQS and all the senshi are super busy with their current duties. Does that make it ok for NQS to pass off her obligation to her child onto a teenager and her family?

What parent doesn't have a ton of obligations, esp with the rise of single or dual career parenting? The fairest thing, in my mind, would be for NQS to make some sort of accommodations in her own life. Be it hiring a nanny or delegating some of her duties to advisers or whatever she has.

Usagi has enough to deal with in her own life, not to mention now she knows all about her future, in almost frightening detail. Why doesn't NQS respect the fact that Usagi just wants to be as normal as possible and should just have fun being a teenager?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 4:02 pm

Quote :
I opt to disagree with you Nerf, if for nothing else then for fairness alone.
What part are you disagreeing with?

Sorry Mars^^

Quote :
Let's say NQS and all the senshi are super busy with their current duties. Does that make it ok for NQS to pass off her obligation to her child onto a teenager and her family?

What parent doesn't have a ton of obligations, esp with the rise of single or dual career parenting? The fairest thing, in my mind, would be for NQS to make some sort of accommodations in her own life. Be it hiring a nanny or delegating some of her duties to advisers or whatever she has.

Usagi has enough to deal with in her own life, not to mention now she knows all about her future, in almost frightening detail. Why doesn't NQS respect the fact that Usagi just wants to be as normal as possible and should just have fun being a teenager?

I agree. I feel it has a lot to do with how NQS mentions her heart has weakened. She doesn't really remember what is was like as Usagi, and that's why she broke the taboo and ran to meet her past self. She wanted to be reminded of that happiness.

Maybe she wanted Chibiusa to experience that happiness as well, but NQS must have forgotten how she must have felt as Usagi because she's become nearly a completely different person :/

It's like a time loop that makes it all connected. All the responsibility had made Usagi slowly lose that cheerfulness and it's not Chibiusa's fault at all, but in a way NQS puts the pressure on Usagi(Subconsciously and unknowingly) and Usagi becomes Serenity and loses heart creating the cycle.

I believe it's unfair, but no one is really to blame^^
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 4:38 pm

Maybe the responsibility shouldn't have fallen to Usagi, but would the only alternative be for Chibiusa to stay in the future and then the bond between the two shortens and falters? I'm assuming there probably is other alternatives, but I'll let you guys come up with that.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 4:43 pm

I kinda wish Usagi never became NQS, only because I think Usagi would have been a great mom to Chibiusa. Also, Usagi's wish was to be a normal girl, but she will never ever get that opportunity

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 4:48 pm

... aside from executive meddling? Smile If you seek fairness, I'm sorry, but I don't think you'll find it in sailor moon. (I disagree with the senshi being absolutely necessarily in a leading position, especially with lady airhead at the... head.

I'm a sucker for fairness. Sorry if I snapped.

I should probably sleep instead of dumping my brain here Very Happy )

@Mars, the social and political context can very well define what one character percieves as "fair", so it's relevant to the issue at hand. Of course this means that the question is a tiny bit more complex this way.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   15th April 2013, 5:02 pm

You're confusing me.

Quote :
If you seek fairness, I'm sorry, but I don't think you'll find it in sailor moon.

Quote :
I'm a sucker for fairness. Sorry if I snapped.

Either way, please refrain from bashing the show and characters because the people that debate actually do love the show, and a lot of your comments can be seen as offensive to real fans.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 12:32 am

To clarify it: Presenting the rest of the human race, as well as those of my gender being irrelevant to large scale processes and politics, as an utopia is a berserk button for me. (not literally, but something of a similar effect) Because right now the two reasons the senshi are "qualified" to those positions, are having the magical brawn to be relevant (major point), or (suggested) that being a senshi makes them able to succeed in any field to a noticeably higher degree than normal, but highly trained humans.

Which, from a my point view, is a dystopia.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 1:38 am

I think this is getting offtopic again...

So I'm just going to move on:

Usagi already has a little brother that she has a very similar relationship to Chibiusa with, but she adores them. I honestly don't think she minds having Chibiusa around, in fact she cries when Chibiusa's not... The manga Usagi did take adjusting, but Usagi in the anime has more tendency to just play-fight with Chibiusa.

The real question is how fair is it on Ikuko, but since Ikuko is so ridiculously full of good-hearted motherhood, she doesn't seem to mind a bit, even thinking Chibiusa one of her. Perhaps NQS wanted Ikuko to raise her daughter to make her like Usagi, since as the Queen, Chibiusa would be quite neglected from time to time naturally, it seems to be a better option to give her another mother-figure she can trust.

I don't think its unfair on past-Usagi since past-Usagi is perfectly happy with the situation, enough to send Chibiusa back to the past when the Future comes.

Augh Time loopholes o.O

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 1:48 am

Well, as long as it doesn't become a rule (to send kids to XXth century) rather than an exception, it can be justified.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 1:50 am

Also a note about General Debating:

TL;DR for below: There is nothing wrong with opinions, but please make sure your putting your opinion in the right place as to not confuse the discussion!

In a debate, please try to
stick to the context of the story, opinions and theories are fine if
they are relevant and are not obviously contradicted by the series, if
they aren't this is "headcanon" which is a different thing, and we have
many threads for these. Debates must be seen from within the series.
Real world opinions do not necessarily apply, caution must be taken when
using these, they must be only used, when they are relevant to the
series or else the debate becomes full of irrelevance and a lack of
logic. Sailor Moon is not a real-life story and therefore much of its contents are not always applicable to the real world. It is important to debate to work out what is applicable and what is not before using it in an argument.

For example:

Common Japanese beliefs in
Philosophy are relevant throughout the entire series as it is written by
a Japanese woman with an entirely Japanese character cast but it should be justified with hard evidence first.

Common
Christian beliefs are relevant only in the Infinity arc of the manga as
the references are clear through symbolism and choice of words.

Common law of Cambodia is never relevant in the series as nothing significant in the series establishes a link to Cambodia.

~~~

For the particular arguments being raised here is my suggestion:

In
the case of Minako and Usagi being incompetent leaders due to their
personalities, this is a real world matter irrelevant to the series.
Within the series, both Minako and Usagi are established as completely
capable leaders several times throughout the entire 14 year long
meta-series. Whether or not you think it would happen in the real world,
is not really part of a debate, if you wish to think this please create
a headcanon thread so you can discuss it. Try not to confuse Sailor Moon with the real world, thats the biggest tip I can give for debating.

I am not trying to argue the point, I am just saying this is not the place for that kind of discussion! So please if you would like to talk about that make a new thread that is a discussion and not a debate.

Lets just keep debates factual and unbiased, with no spurious or irrelevant reasoning! Very Happy thanks everyone!

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 2:28 am

Well, fairness is an iffy topic that really can only be evaluated within context. If the alternative (not sending her back again) is worse, it is a fair action.

And if we can't agree with the context, tough luck Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 3:41 am

Usagi doesn't raise Chibiusa, but the knowledge and being responsible for training her are heavy. When Chibiusa was on death's door due to Mistress 9, that was a very hard blow for her. We see her protecting her many times, and we see Chibiusa interfering with many things in her daily life, romance, battles and the like. even Shingo doesn't act like the annoying little sibling as much as Chibiusa.

Don't get me wrong, they love each other. I do agree it's more of a sisterly bond but that mother-daughter is still very evident even in the past especially when it comes to the other being in need or being hurt or the like.

A bond between NQS and chibiusa wouldn't need Usagi in the past, they would have had a bond irregardless and Chibiusa going to the past had little effect on how she treated her mother. It did make her grow up but this is about her continuous stay in the past.

Despite the diplomacy and politics that are obviously needed in any kingdom or government, Chibiusa would have to learn it anyway since she is the princess and sole heir to the kingdom and will be responsible for the intergalactic alliance. Those are big shoes to fill and something she can't exactly learn in the past. She is however, learning humility and humble livings which can help make her a greater ruler as we see that in many stories of Kingdom Royals and civilians.

After some thought towards this, I think that it had more to do with when Helios came into the picture, as their first meeting only occurs in the past, but when we see Helios and the vision of him seeing Princess Lady Serenity, there is obviously a connection in the far distant future between them when Chibiusa is much older.

This meets was necessary for the development of Chibiusa and Helios, if she had returned in the R saga and never came back to the past, this chance first meeting never would have happened which seems to be significant enough for Chibiusa to contact Elysion in the past.

Is it fair? No not really. Is it unfair? No not really. Is that how life goes? Definitely. Life is unfair and fair at the same time and this a prime example of it.

Quote :
To clarify it: Presenting the rest of the human race, as well as those of my gender being irrelevant to large scale processes and politics, as an utopia is a berserk button for me. (not literally, but something of a similar effect) Because right now the two reasons the senshi are "qualified" to those positions, are having the magical brawn to be relevant (major point), or (suggested) that being a senshi makes them able to succeed in any field to a noticeably higher degree than normal, but highly trained humans.

Which, from a my point view, is a dystopia.

This makes no sense, what I asked is why you disagreed with me. We weren't discussing your gender or the human race. I made a comment that I didn't like how rude you are about Sailor Moon and the nicer aspects it has to offer.

You aren't making any sense about the politic situation either. All of them are Representative of their own kingdoms, each senshi having their own castle to govern while also protecting a kingdom which their kingdoms are governed under. They are royals, therefore politicians in their own rights. There is a surprising amount of politics within the series, as not just one kingdom is mentioned but several and politics is about the laws, communications within the kingdom and outside of the kingdom as well as building and maintaining the kingdoms ALL of which go on in the series. So yes, politics are in the series, more then you realize.

Again I must suggest you actually read the manga and the anime in order to know fully what you are trying to debate. No one can give an accurate debate about something they've never seen or heard and researched for themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 4:40 am

I don't think humility and status as a senshi mesh well, or mesh at all. I'd drop that angle.

I agree though that "this is how life goes". Summed up the discussion pretty well.

@Nerf: I disagreed with the senshi being qualified, and justified in being representatives, and not just representatives, but the only representatives being fair for both the rest of the human race, and for the senshi themselves, considering they once were people with goals other than ruling. (Though a thousand years can change things up, I concede that)

And the concept of only senshi being the representatives and rulers, of a supposedly modern society, was what snapped me. I apologize for overreacting, this - again - was not the time and place to rage about that.

Shouldn't we open a new topic for this side discussion?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 3:26 pm

Quote :
I don't think humility and status as a senshi mesh well, or mesh at all. I'd drop that angle.

They face humility all the time and yet they are senshi. They lose battles, they fall down, they ARE human. It meshes and it makes them better people for it. Galaxia did not have any sense of humility, but she sure did in the end.

You make make a thread for it, it would be better to discuss it there. I just want to add that the senshi were already Representative of their own castles that Queen Serenity had gifted them with, as Representative of their planets, they stayed on the moon. we should make a topic for this, because they are royals of their planets and even have their own royal regalia. They aren't just Representative of Earth and regular people can't be Representative. That's like saying I want to go to Korea and represent America, that isn't politics, that would be me putting myself in a situation I was neither trained for, prepared for or anything of the like

They are rulers though and they reside in a modern society so I don't know why that bothers you so much considering it's true

I believe that the humility Chibiusa learns in the past will make her a greater ruler to represent Crystal Tokyo because when their is a lack of humility, their is a lack of empathy and understanding within the rulers which make them cold and unfair like what happened to Galaxia

Tales and fables of humility being taught to soldiers and kings are written all over the world. From the King who was tricked into walking naked in front of his people, to Merlin teaching Aurther humility, to stories of humility being told in various religious bible texts. From Kings and Queens and Princesses and Princes being told to live among their people as if they were poor to learn humility and humble styles of living to Soldiers having to remember their shame and humility in order to bring them back down to reality.

The senshi and humility doesn't even mesh, it's just their to begin with
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 6:31 pm

Quote :
I believe that the humility Chibiusa learns in the past will make her a greater ruler to represent Crystal Tokyo because when their is a lack of humility, their is a lack of empathy and understanding within the rulers which make them cold and unfair like what happened to Galaxia

Yeah, there are obvious reasons that this was a positive experience for Chibiusa. She probably got more out of being in the past that she would have at home

Maybe it is a matter of NQS putting her daughter's needs above her own (past self's) needs.

Probably not fair to Usagi, but if Usagi knew the reasons behind it, she probably would agree with the choice.

Yay! On-topic and not yelling at anyone!!!!! Whoops

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 6:37 pm

lol Saturn^^

I agree Usagi will know the reason behind it one day, and is ok with it in the future^^
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Was Chibiusa staying in the past fair to Usagi?   16th April 2013, 9:12 pm

Bump
I just went on a fishing expedition!!!

[img][/img]

TaDA!

Apparently Chibiusa lied and said they wanted to train her, thus the reason the queen Said what she did in the letter. Knowing that more then 900 years have passed and I can barely remember what happened yesterday, she probably didn't even realize lmfao

All ends that ends well.

Silly Chibiusa. Usagi and Mamoru are mad but the accept it so I guess this answers it^^
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