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Ktenshi
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:06 pm

I don't know about the people skills thing.  Mamoru had friends but not -close- friends.  His people skills weren't lacking in anything really other than he didn't have anyone close. If anything they were able to get him to completely trust others. 

Mean, in the Manga, he's well liked on the campus of his school, popular enough that the underclassman Ittou was inspired by him.    Anime wise, he had Saori from High school, Motoki at the Crowne, and he knew some influential people (Asimov, the German gentleman).  Just to name a bit.

So, social graces and just people to hang out with weren't the problem.

But actual deep trust and a little Self-confidence issues, plus people that actually love him.  Those are things that I think the Senshi gave him and he gave back too.  They learned more with him- broadening their scope, to believe in themselves when they're in self doubt and to help support.

I don't know if they're supposed to guide him like that. He had his own group, and really the failure there was them falling for Beryl's manipulations again.  Then, I supposed it would be the Sailor senshi's failure after that. Failure on Luna and Artemis's part too, if you want the truth.

Luna and Artemis are meant to advise, but they're always very concerned with just the girls and never saw any reason to Train Mamoru with the girls too. (which, you know, could've saved everyone the trouble of everything.)
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:55 am

But they are called 'The Guardian Cats'. Generally guardians are seen as things that will watch over you and protect you, and when in times of desperate need help you. Coming back to my point of the senshi's guardians back in their castles on their home planets. They didn't appear until the time had come to help.

And you have put that Mamoru situation into a better context.  Not people skills but trust and self-confidence. I should've thought it through a bit better. No, the senshi aren't supposed to guide Mamoru in a way such as obvious. But I think that Naoko has done it cleverly and left the readers oblivious. You know, like a little easter egg in a game? Pointless, hard-to-find and when analysed properly makes sense. If you know what I mean?

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:31 am

The cats are active advisors and they're from Mau. They're meant to actively -help- the senshi in all things. (Which includes and should've included Mamoru.)

 Maybe, but then again Mamoru suffered from the same thing the other girls suffered too before meeting Usagi. 

With the exception of Uranus and Neptune, nearly everyone in the entire group- even Chibiusa- have experienced some form of loneliness, trust issues, and self-worth.  A lot of their circumstances are way less happier than Usagi's who, in the beginning, had the most ideal life ever. 

The more I think about it the more I think that the Senshi are really replacements for the Shitennou.

(which puts in mind as to why didn't Usagi/Mamoru just bring the Shitennou back to life if their souls are bound to the stones? Much like how the Amazoness were brought back as well?  They have the power and together they can clearly make this a permenant focused solution rather then the temporary moment when the silver crystal had a random burst of unfocused energy when P. Serenity awakened.)
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:37 am

I did always think that everyone had a lonely life apart from Usagi which does make some sense, her being the Princess. Obviously Intentional.

I know that the cats are from Mau, when I was talking about the guardians I meant the little versions of the senshi, known as their guardians that subside in the castles that orbited each princess' home planet.

Thinking about it, what cute couples would the quartet and shitennou make? >.<

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:17 am

Ooooh.

You know, I think only Usagi and Mamoru don't have one of those Power Sailor Guardians.  Neither does Chibiusa. 

-ponders this for a while as to why that is-

Maybe they have them because Q.Serenity gave them all castles and..yeah I got nothing to be honest.


I always thought it was crappy in a way- even if it was intentional. (annd..slightly marysueish.)

I don't know if the Quartet would make a good couple with the Shitennou.   I guess, in some respect, I still cling to the pairings the anime gave me. However, I can picture Jadeite and Ceres quite well, actually. 

I always pictured Palla Palla to be pretty much asexual and not care. 

Jun Jun seemed more of a 'guy' in some respects. I suppose Zoisite -could- work with her but..eh. (I'm still stuck on Kun/Zoi)

Nephrite would probably work out with VesVes

- but this is granted that the girls are older than they currently are.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:23 am

Maybe just maybe they don't have power sailor guardians because that is what the cats are! Luna and Diana are their Guardians! Excluding Artemis and Venus, they are just not included, a mistake xD.
And I can't explain Mamoru, maybe Luna counts as that as well?

Of course when the quartet are older. Zoisite always craved a manly figure didn't he? Jun Jun would work out perfectly for that, even though she is female. She is like the Jupiter and Uranus of the quartet. And Palla Palla did never care, but in the anime she did always put up a fight for the boys, didn't she?

Maybe you can elaborate on the guardian situation after this idea. xD

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:32 am

Maybe Pegasus is his guardian animal?  Or Helios?

  my brain is getting foggy.

True, Jun/Zoi could work out like that
...but
-clings to her Kun/Zoi ship-   xD I can't imagine them apart. they had such beautiful deaths in the anime.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:46 am

Helios would work out as his guardian. My brain is hurting a bit over this discussion as well. xD  I never really shipped Kun/Zoi due to originally watching the english dub with Malachite and Zoisite where they made Zoi female and from then on I couldn't get that out of my head. >.< Lets have a rest or just finish this discussion?

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:54 pm

Okay, I've got a new theory. And it's really good. Maybe the Golden Crystal was lost, like Ktenshi said. Or rather, it wasn't so much lost, as it left the Earth.

Okay, so let's say the Golden Crystal is a solar crystal that came into the possession of Earth, when their own crystal wasn't strong enough to be a Sailor Crystal. That works with the line "the prince of Earth guarded by the Sun." The Golden Crystal was responsible for the formation of the Golden Kingdom.

Now the Sun represents vitality, energy, the center, and individuality. Solar deities have also been linked to healing and disease, like Apollo or Sekhmet. So I want to say that the Golden Crystal, when it was used on Earth, granted the Earthlings with much longer lifespans and kept their bodies youthful, strong, and disease free.

But over time, the people of Earth grew arrogant, and wanted more. They wanted to conquer. So, like any good conqueror, they started with their nearest neighbor, and the one that could rival them in power, the Moon. They tried to use the Golden Crystal against the Moon queen. And that's where things went wrong. I consider the Gold and Silver like siblings, twins, compliments. And let's say that it is a universal taboo to use them against each other. That was where the line was drawn. After that, the Golden Crystal up and left the people of Earth, disappearing completely, and leaving them weaker and unprotected. And it would only return when the people of Earth were ready for it.

This would help explain why the Moon felt the need to "guide" the people of Earth. Maybe they were just watching over them to make sure they didn't do anything else particularly stupid. Or maybe they felt guilty about how the people of Earth were suffering without the Golden Crystal. It wouldn't be logical, but it would be understandable.

And perhaps the rule about the Moon people not making physical contact was another form of punishment or something. Or maybe the Moon people didn't want Earth to know they were watching because they'd be sore about it.

And the Golden Crystal sealed itself inside Prince Endymion because maybe it saw that he could be the kind of person the Crystal had been hoping for, someone good, someone noble, someone who would shine like the Sun but not burn those around it.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:17 pm

Neat theory. Sounds like you've thought that one out VERY well. All seems logical and understandable.

I think that I can adjust one section in there you said :
@Phantom53 wrote:
And perhaps the rule about the Moon people not making physical contact was another form of punishment or something. Or maybe the Moon people didn't want Earth to know they were watching because they'd be sore about it. 

I agree with the Moon people watching them and not telling them but not making contact as a punishment doesn't make sense. Maybe Q. Serenity forbid the people of her kingdom in making contact due to a grudge and rivalry? Linking to your theories.

It was just that P. Serenity was the first one to dare to do it. A bit like in a few films where two specific beings from 2 separate, rival tribes fall in love and have to meet in secret due to a grudge. What do you think? It would be a bit more understanding.

But in the end Q. Serenity gave in and trusted just P. Endymion. As to why he was welcome into the castle and the masquerade ball. The Queen may still have had her doubts but understood young love , because she had once had it and gave birth to her daughter, Serenity.

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:49 pm

Hmm, that's a good point. My personal headcanon already has Moon society being victim to long grudges, so perhaps a grudge was the reason. Although in my headcanon, this incident took place way before the period of the Silver Millennium, so I would figure it was one of the other Queens of the Moon. And maybe the Earth people killed a member of the royal family too. That would certainly warrant a grudge. I don't think "rivalry" would work as well though personally.

I was thinking of a Romeo & Juliet scenario. The backstory of SM definitely draws on it, and that would be fine normally, but it brings up the question of why. You can get why Romeo and Juliet have to meet in secret, their families hate each other. Something like this just plays more on that. Thank you for the correction. I wasn't too sure on that point myself.

I actually have thought out this piece of headcanon much more, in terms of symbolism and so forth. But I think that's more suited to the headcanon thread.

But what's this about a masquerade ball? Mos of my knowledge of SM is secondhand, so I know I might miss a few details here and there, despite my efforts.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:17 pm

Oh yeah, I suppose not rivalry... 

The Moon Kingdom does seems like the type to hold grudges. And it is a possibility of a member being killed. The Earth do seem a ruthless bunch, in my head anyway.

And Romeo and Juliet is a very good comparison. Loads of points of them two pull together and make logical sense. 

I think that it was in episode 1, it displays a ball in the palace of the Moon Kingdom. I may be mistaken though, I do have rather strong memories of it though.

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:36 pm

^No, you could have been right about the ball. What you describe could still work, I just didn't remember it. Maybe I should see if I can look it up.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:32 pm

The ball happens later in the anime. It's interesting, because it implies that Princess Serenity invited Prince Endymion beforehand. Only just before the ball the conflict strenghtened so much that Prince was threatened on his arrival.
It's also telling that Moon Palace organised masquarade ball despite the current tension with Earth.
Like they just wanted to ignore them?

Quote :
@Ktenshi wrote:
Quote :
I'm one of those people where Author=/= Book Evidence. If Naoko really wanted it to be very well known that men can't be Sailor Senshi, she should've written that line in the books or in other things that she had input in but that never happened therefore-  Actual Evidence=/= Author's Word.
ITA with the above - author is dead.

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:02 pm

^Oh yeah, I found it. Episode 39 of the English numbering. It is interesting. Presumably if Princess Serenity couldn't be in contact with Endymion or even officially go down to the Earth, then Endymion wouldn't be allowed onto the Moon either. And yet there he was.

It is possible that Endymion was invited to the masquerade ball to try and patch things up between him, Princess Serenity, and Queen Serenity. Maybe the queen started to regret pulling them apart. If it were a masquerade ball, Endymion could be there with Serenity without too many people raising a fuss.

After all, while the Moon was spying on the Earth, the Moon also wasn't supposed to make contact with Earth. So the vast majority of the Moon people might've had no idea what Endymion looked like, or who he was. If Lunarians and Earthlings were physically similar enough, everybody would presume he was just another guest.

Now this wouldn't be true of the people in the Lunar Court that were actually observing the Earth, so for individuals like that, the use of masks would be convenient. And maybe Queen Serenity was planning to go forward with trying to reestablish contact with the Earth and ease tensions diplomatically after the ball, if everything went well that is.

The ball itself could have already been planned before there were any issues with Earth, like it was a yearly event or something. And if Metallica was being very subtle about her plans on Earth, the Moon may not have been particularly worried about Earth tensions, and held their ball. 

I mean, the Earth wasn't happy. That didn't mean the Earth was going to invade, or that they could invade with any realistic measure of success. The early Sailor Moon material gives the impression that the Earth was sort of the odd one out of all the planets.

And it couldn't have been in the alliance of the Silver Millennium. A planet in an alliance of peace would not have had a restriction of contact placed on it like that.

And the Moon wasn't just going to launch an attack for what may have appeared to be pure bombastic talk. As far as my own headcanon goes, the sort of riling Beryl was doing was especially unsurprising, and the Moon really wouldn't have needed to worry, not if Metallica didn't let all of her evil magic come into view.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:14 pm

The thing is, the idea that the Moon is supposedly 'charged' with 'guiding' Earth is strictly a Manga-only concept. 

In the Anime, we don't really know -anything- or much about the Moon-Earth relationship up until the ball scene. And even at the ball scene, there's very few ideas about it because The Golden Kingdom was not a concept in the Anime. Endymion, in the Anime, was just a prince of Elysion- which more or less is the 'Earth Kingdom' as far as I can tell. 

Also, Anime wise, the Dark Kingdom and the shitennou are presented as an entirely separate entity and we don't know anything about Beryl or her love for endymion other than a few throw away lines.


My question concerns mainly and pretty much exclusively with the Manga-world where the statement exist.  in other incarnations, this statement about The moon's supposed obligation towards Earth doesn't exist.

I would have thought, considering how positively that P. Serenity and even Q. Serenity at some extent, talked about how the Earth was this beautiful place, with all these different kinds of things- in comparison with the Moon Kingdom itself, that jealousy could be a factor not just to the people of Earth- but the Moon as well. 

Who's to say that the instigation for this 'Rule' wasn't started because of the Moon People themselves?

Obviously, this Rule seems to only be restricted to the Moon-Earth  as in a previous comic (I think I mentioned this) in Sailor V, Dandurite (Adonis) is clearly from Venus.


Now, I figured, that if we really want to think of a reason as to why this contact between the two is forbidden, I'd look to Mythology itself. 

the goddess of the Dawn/dusk- Eos might be one of the best solutions to this particular issue. 

Eos was said to have been in love with a mortal, asked Zeus to grant this guy eternal life.  She forgot to ask him to great him eternal youth too.  So her lover aged into a feeble old man that couldn't move but lived forever.

This telling of the story occurs before the Selene/Endymion story (Along with Romeo/Juilet) which Sailor moon is founded on mostly, could make for a compelling argument that someone- probably high up- in Q. Serenity's court made this very mistake.

The life spans between the people of the moon and earth are very radically different.  So much so, that it's also possible that the idea of either getting together might be a bad idea.

Considering what happened to Chibiusa in the future (Child of Earth/Moon Lineage), this might not be an unfounded idea of Moon-Earth not being able to visit/communicate with each other at all. 

(I mean, in the Manga, Chibiusa stops growing around the age of like 6-7 yrs old for over 893 yrs give or take. That's most of her lifetime, leaving her to grow normally for the next 100 years which is the end of her lifetime. )
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:46 pm

Hmm, that is an interesting answer, one I admit I completely overlooked. And that myth, talk about a monumental screw up.

It's also an interesting answer to why Chibiusa's growth rate was so... messed up to put it lightly. I thought that perhaps she was born before that big disaster or whatever it was and got put in stasis with her parents, and that, combined with magic, may have caused her growth to stunt.

Though about the ball, now I'm thinking about how Endymion got up to the Moon. I'm just imagining the Queen sending a covert little ship to take him up there. And I'm wondering if, during the ride, Queen Serenity gave him the "if you hurt my daughter or make her cry I swear I will skin you alive" talk. That conversation would be hilarious.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:53 pm

With Chibiusa, she was born, most likely, when Crystal Tokyo was already formed. In the Manga, the Crystal Palace was already formed, Usagi and Mamoru were married and Usagi was pregnant already. 

According to Endymion, what happened with Chibiusa is a mystery to -everyone-.  So that could mean that everyone else was growing normally and stopped when they were mature enough, making her a special case.  (enough for it to be mentioned in passing.)  

It gives more evidence that Moon/Earth DNA mixing results in this temporary stunted growth both mentally and physically until some kind of power/emotional growth (I'm guessing here) takes place to resume normal growth. 


As for the ball, I think that only took place in the Anime. 

Manga wise, for all we know- Endymion and Serenity were rushing to warn everyone about the impending attack and simply didn't make it in time. 

Especially considering Q. Serenity's expression when she sees that everyone was dead on the stairs.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:28 pm

Yeah, Chibiusa's stunted growth has always bothered me. I get that something could have gone wrong and caused it, but I wonder, she did eventually start to grow again. So what happened?

But I'm not totally sure about emotional growth. It actually raises so many questions that I think I might create a thread on it so this one doesn't veer into a totally different topic.
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:30 pm

Well, this has some foundation to the Reason of Chibi's growth issues. 

after all what better reason for restricted contact than the idea of those two bearing a child that'll either be ridiculously super powerful or messed up. 

After all, they are technically two different species...
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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:34 pm

Quote :
Presumably if Princess Serenity couldn't be in contact with Endymion or even officially go down to the Earth, then Endymion wouldn't be allowed onto the Moon either. And yet there he was.  
Not quite, as he had to hide from castle guards and then behind the mask.
In anime there is no mention of Princess visiting Earth, only looking at it. So as they met, it had to be Endymion who visited the Moon. I wonder whose inspiration was that and what was the reason for his coming. Was it maybe an attempt to make up relations between two kingdoms?

Quote :
It is possible that Endymion was invited to the masquerade ball to try and patch things up between him, Princess Serenity, and Queen Serenity.
I believe that that was original plan, before the tension between Earth and Moon strengthened. Later Endymion was worried about it and wanted to save situation, with Serenity's help.

Quote :
the use of masks would be convenient.
I believe that his using mask means he was known at the Moon because he already was there before.

Quote :
And maybe Queen Serenity was planning to go forward with trying to reestablish contact with the Earth and ease tensions diplomatically after the ball, if everything went well that is.
If that was the case, Endymion would go directly to the Queen, not the Princess. IMO, the Queen was unwilling to consider diplomacy.

Quote :
the Moon may not have been particularly worried about Earth tensions, and held their ball.
I believe that the Moon considered themselves safe with Silver Crystal and conviction that Earth are mere mortals.

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PostSubject: Re: [theories] Why did they have to do that?   Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:31 pm

Quote :
The thing is, the idea that the Moon is supposedly 'charged' with 'guiding' Earth is strictly a Manga-only concept. 

In the Anime, we don't really know -anything- or much about the Moon-Earth relationship up until the ball scene. And even at the ball scene, there's very few ideas about it because The Golden Kingdom was not a concept in the Anime. Endymion, in the Anime, was just a prince of Elysion- which more or less is the 'Earth Kingdom' as far as I can tell. 
Also, Anime wise, the Dark Kingdom and the shitennou are presented as an entirely separate entity and we don't know anything about Beryl or her love for endymion other than a few throw away lines.
IIRC, Helios talks about Golden Kingdom with Mamoru. Also, before ball remiscences Queen Serenity tells Usagi they were supposed to support evolution on Earth - though she doesn't elaborate, what that means.
And Beryl's crush on Endymion was pretty obvious.

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