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Sailor Lily
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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   15th April 2015, 2:39 pm

Well people say  "He shouldn't have believed his dreams! That's dumb."

But then you forgot one point there. His dreams are what told him that he was tuxedo mask, about the silver crystal, and about the moon princess. And with those dreams he was able to figure out who he really was. So I understand that he believes his dreams this time too.

Also I wish the inner senshi (minus rei, cause she at least shows a bit of concern) kinda treated the breakup like in pgsm, with Ami and Makoto. The two were showing concern and Makoto even talked to Motoki about the two a bit. Like couldn't they have shown maybe Makoto talking with Motoki about Mamoru or something?

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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   10th May 2015, 12:51 pm

I absolutely HATED the break-up arc.

1. It was entirely pointless and added too much unnecessary drama.
2. It could have been easily revolved had they just talked things out! (And no, I'm not going to accept "Japanese people are private because it's considered bad to talk about your personal problems" as an excuse, either. And seriously, it's because of lack of communication that a whole bunch of problems happen!)
3. Mamoru was behaving completely out of character all because of a dream, and he kept treating Usagi like she was a nuisance the whole time.
4. The so-called threat never materializes, rendering the entire arc pointless!

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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   10th May 2015, 6:32 pm

@Juliko wrote:
And no, I'm not going to accept "Japanese people are private because it's considered bad to talk about your personal problems" as an excuse, either. And seriously, it's because of lack of communication that a whole bunch of problems happen!

It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. It doesn't justify his actions, it just gives them context.
And yes, lack of communication creates a lot of problems. So? It happens all the time, even among people who are more used to talk about their problems.
In fact, I don't understand how Mamoru was out of character during this arc. That's false. Episode 60,and part of 61, were the only ones in which he was completely gentle and sweet towards Usagi. He was in love and felt free to be that way, so he had changed from the person who was distrustful, lonely, reserved, doubtful. The dream made him behave worse than before, true. He was frustrated: he was doing something irrational, that made him and the person he loved unhappy. And he felt he had no other choice.
He wasn't right, but he didn't know. He was justified in feeling that the dream had connections with reality, for logical reasons (the fact that past dreams that had tormented him had in fact ended up telling him the truth about his past, and the haunting dreams of the present that found a way in his reality by breaking up things... I repeat, breaking up thing like the glass of a picture of Usagi while he was looking at it, exactly when he was missing her)
Really, this kind of arguments make me think that people identify too much with Usagi.
Of course she was treated horribly. Of course her pain could have been avoided and Mamoru should have believed in her, should have talked to her. He was wrong.
But he was young too, and scared. He had reasons to be. He hadn't ever been taught to talk to people about his feelings, and when he had the possibility to learn with Usagi, nightmares immediately started marring his happiness.

These are explanations inside the story. Outside the story, of course the whole plot was kind of meaningless, story-wise, given its non-reasons to exist (Endymion wanting to test their love and bla, bla).
Bad plot writing, but as for character writing... not really. Usagi and Mamoru behaved, through this trial, very in character for what we had been taught about them.
Since I, as a viewer, found a way to know more about them through this process, these episodes don't seem so pointless to me.
Even if they could have been written vastly better.
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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   11th May 2015, 4:14 am

I see. You do have some valid points. Well, everyone has their thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   20th May 2015, 7:02 pm

Their breakup was so heart-wrenching for me. I hated Mamoru for a long time as a result, and R is my least favorite season.
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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   20th May 2015, 7:20 pm

@ellephedre wrote:
@Juliko wrote:
And no, I'm not going to accept "Japanese people are private because it's considered bad to talk about your personal problems" as an excuse, either. And seriously, it's because of lack of communication that a whole bunch of problems happen!

It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. It doesn't justify his actions, it just gives them context.
And yes, lack of communication creates a lot of problems. So? It happens all the time, even among people who are more used to talk about their problems.
In fact, I don't understand how Mamoru was out of character during this arc. That's false. Episode 60,and part of 61, were the only ones in which he was completely gentle and sweet towards Usagi. He was in love and felt free to be that way, so he had changed from the person who was distrustful, lonely, reserved, doubtful. The dream made him behave worse than before, true. He was frustrated: he was doing something irrational, that made him and the person he loved unhappy. And he felt he had no other choice.
He wasn't right, but he didn't know. He was justified in feeling that the dream had connections with reality, for logical reasons (the fact that past dreams that had tormented him had in fact ended up telling him the truth about his past, and the haunting dreams of the present that found a way in his reality by breaking up things... I repeat, breaking up thing like the glass of a picture of Usagi while he was looking at it, exactly when he was missing her)
Really, this kind of arguments make me think that people identify too much with Usagi.
Of course she was treated horribly. Of course her pain could have been avoided and Mamoru should have believed in her, should have talked to her. He was wrong.
But he was young too, and scared. He had reasons to be. He hadn't ever been taught to talk to people about his feelings, and when he had the possibility to learn with Usagi, nightmares immediately started marring his happiness.

These are explanations inside the story. Outside the story, of course the whole plot was kind of meaningless, story-wise, given its non-reasons to exist (Endymion wanting to test their love and bla, bla).
Bad plot writing, but as for character writing... not really. Usagi and Mamoru behaved, through this trial, very in character for what we had been taught about them.
Since I, as a viewer, found a way to know more about them through this process, these episodes don't seem so pointless to me.
Even if they could have been written vastly better.


You make some good points here. I never really thought about that way before. It's still pointless regardless and caused unneeded drama. It's a shame that they don't show Mamoru's growth from this in future acrs. The same for Usagi. I felt at the end of R she really matured. Then in S they made her slightly immature then in SuperS they just made her go back to her Classic personality. Once Stars hit she was back to being mature. But that's another topic! XD

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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   20th May 2015, 11:08 pm

I feel they did show Mamoru's growth in Stars. He was going to go to America, and he not only told Usagi about it but let her decide. Like.. if she doesn't want him to go, he wouldn't. I think that's leaps and bounds from him making decisions that affect them both not only one sided-ly, but also without telling her.

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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   21st May 2015, 3:55 pm

Oh yeah there's that. I forget stuff. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   2nd September 2016, 10:10 pm

Seriously Mamoru could not have possibly handled that whole thing any worse...just look at an episode by episode breakdown of what he does:

2x15
Usagi runs up and snuggles against him. Out of absolutely nowhere YELLS at Usagi to "stop it!" and PHYSICALLY SHOVES her away. Growls at her to stop being so affectionate. Then says he doesn't feel that way about her anymore. She is understandably confused as to what he means. He barks that it's over between them. No explanation provided for why or what changed. So of freaking course she is left extremely confused and questioning if he really means it or if she did something wrong? Honestly if you were in the same situation would you not do the same?

After talking with her equally confused friends, she comes over to his apartment apologizes for not noticing he was in a bad mood. He tells her that is not it. She says she will bring her grades up. He just says he wants their relationship to be over with. Still no explanation given. She brings up Serenity and Endymion and he spits back he is sick of hearing of that bringing her to tears. He shoots down that he cares about Chibiusa more as ridiculous. She apologizes for being a burden and leaves.

So thinking the blame is on her she nearly changes who she is and almost gets herself killed from being so distracted.  He shows up as Tuxedo Mask and acts as if nothing happened. She says this still means he cares. He denies it and so she begs AGAIN for a reason.  He tells her I DON'T LIKE GIRLS WHO ARE WEAK! So yeah he just put 100% of the blame on her for the relationship ending. And at the same time he gave her hope that she could make herself stronger so that she could win back his love. Way to go Mamoru you prick.

2x17
Show up as Tuxedo Mask again. Sailor Moon casually mentions she could join Rei's Grandpa's class so that she can be a strong and pretty girl. (Because he said she was not strong enough for him!) Coldly says suit herself it's not his business. Leaving her highly confused yet again as he leaves since she now know being weak was not his real reason for the break-up. *slow clap*

2x18
I'm not going to fault any of his behavior in this episode except for the overly comforting way he said "I'm here Sailor Moon", and of course the fact that he STILL hasn't given her a tangible reason for the break-up. (I'm also not going to fault any of his behavior in the Rubeus two-parter given the situation.)

2x20
Pretty much the whole episode was leading her on again. Sure Chibiusa was there, but he was basically alone with Usagi and most of the time he was acting nice towards her again, sharing a meal with her, etc... I feel the need to mention again that he STILL HAS NOT GIVEN HER A REASON. So I mean best case scenario where she accepted his feelings just suddenly changed for no reason, is it not out of the question to her that his feelings could just suddenly change back at any time for no reason if they spend some time together? *sigh*

2x23
Uses his best friends sister to try to trick Usagi into thinking he had a new girlfriend... My god this is wrong for so many reasons. Usagi asks who it is and he just tells her it is none of her business. Because he can't actually say she is his girlfriend as Motoki's sister has no idea she is being used here and just thinks she is getting a ride home from a nice guy... *cough*douche*cough*   He also coldly refers to her as "some girl" to Unzauki in front of Usagi.  I'm not going to fault him for the Sleeping Beauty situation leading her on yet again as he had absolutely no other choice here but to kiss her to save her, and I'll cut him some slack for holding her a little too long after. However "As always your finishing technique is breathtaking" was yet another unnecessary overly flattering remark (ESPECIALLY AFTER HE JUST KISSED HER) that serves as a prime example of more mixed signals leading her on further. So of course she jumps at it forcing him to utter another "I don't love you" denial this time with a crushed rose for added effect... Of course Usagi also found out that Motoki's sister (whom works somewhere she often goes) was not his girlfriend because that was another HORRIBLY CONCEIVED PLAN. So now she knows for sure that he is lying to her about some things. Do I need to say it? STILL NO REASON GIVEN so Usagi is once again confused as to what the bloody heck is going on with him...

2x30
Yet another mixed signal as he slips and calls her Usako... (IE his pet name for her).

2x31
Tries ignoring her when she falls down. Once again in tears she's begs to know what she did wrong that she can change. (BECAUSE HE STILL HAS NOT GIVEN HER A REASON). At least FINALLY he says she did not do anything and it is his fault. Of course this is still not an actual reason...but at least she can FINALLY stop blaming herself.
---

Yeah totally the best way to handle that situation as opposed to telling her the truth. Or coming up with an actual plausible reason for the break-up. Or heck even actually dating a new girl (like there would not have been a dozen girls lining up at his campus for the chance.  We will learn in S that he even had female friends.). Or hey maybe even consult with Usagi's friends so that they are not actively trying to push the two back together. Maybe not so much Minako but Ami, Makoto, and Rei are all usually more level-headed than Usagi and she actually listens to them. Plus it's not likeRei knows a thing or two about prophecies or predicting the future that she could to try to check or anything... Heck even doing nothing right now seems like an option to me since let me quote the exact prophecy dream from the Viz dub:

"Mamoru Chiba, you must stay away from Usagi Tsukino. The moment that the two of you are wed the world will come to an end and tragedy will befall Usagi Tsukino, Princess Serenity"

THE MOMENT THAT THE TWO OF YOU ARE WED. That is the threat. So yeah...don't get married and it seems to me the problem is solved?   Heck even she doesn't want to agree to that right now she is still just 14 and legally can not even get married without her parents permission for another 2 years, and that's only with her parents permission.  He's met overprotective Kenji right?  That ain't happening until she is at least 18 if then.  20 is the youngest she can get married without consent .  So uh you got a bit of time to maybe figure something out.  At the moment you even have access to a little pink haired time traveler who maybe after you help her out with her situation might be willing to check and let you know in the future if you happened to have gotten married.  Because if you had then obviously the world did not end and the dream is full of crap.  (Yeah I know at first they did not know Chibiusa was from the future, but they did by the middle of the break-up arc).

Quote :
I just have no idea why Endymion felt the need to test Mamoru's feelings for Usagi.  Endymion is Mamoru...he knows how he feels about her.  I really just don't see the point.
This I think I actually get.  It's because they were likely going to be encountering Demande with his hypnotic powers. (something that did not happen in the original timeline)  He may have known Demande might have the hots for Usagi and try to put her under his spell.  So the idea was to make sure their love connection was strong enough at that moment (very early in the relationship) that she might be able to fight off his control.   Of course poor King Endymion did not realize what a dumb@ss his younger self was and absolutely expected him to go to Usagi and the two of them to discuss the dream and their feelings towards each other.   Nope...so he was eventually forced to give Usagi the dream too to get the two of them headed in the right direction of strengthening their bond.
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PostSubject: Re: Breakup subplot in R   20th November 2016, 2:57 pm

Okay, I loved the added drama of the the break up subplot. I'd gotten serious feels, and actually hurt seeing Usagi curl up and sob in the phonebox. I'm a sucker for love stories. Smile

I dislike 90s anime Mamoru anyways because for the most part, he was an absolute douche. 
Thank god I later read the manga to find out he wasn't like that. PHEW! 

But I will agree with what someone earlier in the thread said about Endymion giving Mamoru those bad dreams/premonitions. Being his future self, Endymion knew the doubts he was having in the past so this was his way of getting Mamoru to strengthen his resolve, but Mamoru is an idiot and messed up, leaving Endymion to step in again. But also agreeing with another post on this thread when they stated the break-up should've ended on the "Sleeping Beauty" episode. It dragged on too long.

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