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Princess Makoto
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PostSubject: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 4:51 pm

This thread has been started to discuss your dislikes of SMC, and while everyone is entitled to their opinion this is NOT a discussion about the fandom.  This topic is specifically for the dislikes about the show its self.  We want to allow everyone to their views on the show, so lets have a respectful and courteous discussion.

Thanks,

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 5:05 pm

Huzzah! Justice to my other thread is made! Thank you for comprising and setting this up. My original intent was never to offend but to create a space to voice negative opinions in light of the positive thread. I'm excited to see this discussion back up again.

That being said, I always wanted Crystal to try and be its own story without relying on the manga. I said in a blog post all the way back in April that I feared the show would be a lackluster version of a product we already have. Unfortunately, that turned out to be true and even worse than I expected.

EDIT: Could we have the title changed to something a little more fun? This one seems to little lackluster compared to the positive one.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 7:22 pm

Thats wanted I wanted Crystal to be as well. It's own thing. Funny enough it tried to do that, but sticking to the manga at the same time.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 7:39 pm

Given that I'm fairly new to Sailor Moon's overall plot, I can't really compare it to the original anime or the manga or anything. However I dropped Crystal like 5 episodes in purely because I think it's a poorly executed anime. Awkward writing, rushed art (or mutated cast?), and many small nitpicks kept me from enjoying it. (I dislike the transformation sequences, which I'd say are pretty important in this genre...) With the original anime around, it made more sense to just keep watching that instead.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 8:21 pm

@Lyricalias wrote:
Given that I'm fairly new to Sailor Moon's overall plot, I can't really compare it to the original anime or the manga or anything. However I dropped Crystal like 5 episodes in purely because I think it's a poorly executed anime. Awkward writing, rushed art (or mutated cast?), and many small nitpicks kept me from enjoying it. (I dislike the transformation sequences, which I'd say are pretty important in this genre...) With the original anime around, it made more sense to just keep watching that instead.
This is the real tragedy to me. Although Sailor Moon Crystal got me back into the community and introduced some new fans to the show, it's really alienated newcomers. I was hoping that Crystal would succeed as a way to introduce people but it's only turned anime friends away from the show.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 8:44 pm

Is it possible for a theme song to start making you appreciate a show more?


Anyway, I haven't been a fan of episodes 9,11,12 and 13 and i hope they put more effort into the BM arc (although going back through that trailer i can see some quality)

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 10:20 pm

SailorKittyElyon wrote:
Is it possible for a theme song to start making you appreciate a show more?

Hey now! No positivity!

Naw, I kid. The only bad parts I can tell about the opening is that it reveals too much (shows every character before they ever make an appearance). The song itself isn't really bad, especially on repeat listens.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   8th January 2015, 10:28 pm

@Sailor CJ wrote:
@Lyricalias wrote:
Given that I'm fairly new to Sailor Moon's overall plot, I can't really compare it to the original anime or the manga or anything. However I dropped Crystal like 5 episodes in purely because I think it's a poorly executed anime. Awkward writing, rushed art (or mutated cast?), and many small nitpicks kept me from enjoying it. (I dislike the transformation sequences, which I'd say are pretty important in this genre...) With the original anime around, it made more sense to just keep watching that instead.
This is the real tragedy to me. Although Sailor Moon Crystal got me back into the community and introduced some new fans to the show, it's really alienated newcomers. I was hoping that Crystal would succeed as a way to introduce people but it's only turned anime friends away from the show.
My friend was introduced to Sailor Moon through Crystal but she loved it. I haven't seen her in 3 weeks so i have no idea what she thinks of the last two episodes and their (shudder) quality. She hasn't read the manga or watched the original anime so she probably won't think much of it

I'm not dropping Crystal just yet, depends how things go in the next 13 episodes, If Toei gets their act together and writing improves i'll stick around for the possibly confirmed Infinity arc.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   10th January 2015, 11:17 am

@Sailor CJ wrote:
That being said, I always wanted Crystal to try and be its own story without relying on the manga.

Me too. I was hoping for a new retelling with a creative twists.
Strangely, I believe that such version would be accepted more in fandom, as people would spend more time on speculations and discussions.


@Sailor CJ wrote:
The only bad parts I can tell about the opening is that it reveals too much (shows every character before they ever make an appearance).

That is big problem of Crystal - they spoil everything for newcomers. I know that Crystal was made mostly for fans, but that's missed opportunity.

The biggest flaw of Crystal seems to me trying to push a season in 13 episodes.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   23rd January 2015, 8:33 am

Another thing that bothers me is Crystal's art style. It looks like a bad mimic of the covers of the kanzenban editions: 


Spoiler:
 



Also looking back, the first image of Crystal was kinda misleading... The show doesn't look like that at all. 


Anyway, this is a better representation of Naoko's early work imo:


Work by TholiaArt.


The art style of the Moon Pride video was reminiscent of the manga sometimes at least.


Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   23rd January 2015, 9:21 am

If Sailor Moon Crystal had the animation of the Moon Pride video, this topic wouldn't even need to be necessary.

Some of the official art is atrocious. It really makes me question what Toei is thinking. How can anyone look at these and say that they're good? I would never pay $70 for something like this.



Everything about their poses is so wrong. Why does Venus's arms look so inflated? And how did Mars's cover get past any sort of quality check?

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 1:47 am

And why does Jupiter's fingers look like they're broken?  Besides the animation, there are a lot of things I was disappointed in with Crystal though I continue to keep watching it just because it's new Sailor Moon and I really want to support this franchise and I love the characters that much.  Anyway, I was disappointed we didn't get more scenes of the Inners and the Shittenou.  They should have had like a whole background episode on their relationship at least instead of having it all told in a five minute flashback.  I thought their deaths were very anti-climatic and made keeping them alive seem useless.  I didn't think they would keep them alive long enough for Black Moon but I was hoping they would at least be kept alive long enough to help the Inners fight against Metalia.  The whole last several episodes of the first arc in general felt very disjointed and rushed, like they didn't know what direction they wanted to go in.  Like you get the impression they wanted to do some more original storyline stuff but at the same time it felt like they were being forced to be faithful to the manga and it just ended up being a bit of a mess.  In general it felt like the whole thing was anti-climatic.  Like the first episode was really exciting and had me pumped.  You had a few other episodes that were very exciting too like the ball room episode and the one where they go to the moon and Makoto's episode.  But then like the finale just feels cliched and predictable and you're just like "whatever" when it's over.  And in regards to the animation, I think my biggest beef with it isn't just that it looks so bad but they didn't save their budget for the most important moments.  Like I can understand some of the early episodes having a poor budget or the episodes where it's just Usagi and Mamoru doing romantic things.  But like those last few episodes of the first season should have been the best looking episodes of the series. When you're doing an epic finale, it should look visually engaging and gorgeous and instead it just looked awful, even by Crystal's already low standards and I think that was my biggest disappointment.  And I know Crystal can pull off some pretty decent animation.  Like the episode where they went to the moon was actually rather pretty and that shot where Usagi is reunited with the girls in episode 14 actually looked gorgeous too, so Toei is capable of good animation, but they have no sense of how to balance a budget.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 8:30 am



This picture is an embarrassment to the series. For Christ sake it's on a DVD box. At least the others' faces aren't messed up! 

I think all fans can agree at this point that Toei really handle their budget wrong. I know it's out source, but even out source work can look decent. Like you said Neon there are pretty still shots and the backgrounds are beautiful. I really love the Moon Kingdom and the Earth Kingdom.

I wish they never made the MV for Moon Pride. It got my hopes up. I really thought they were going to dive into the past and flesh it out. But then episode six happened it crushed all my dreams. I know people say episode three was the worst animated episode, but to me episode six was. Like what was with all the close up on their faces in that episode? What so they didn't have to draw a whole face? 

I know a lot people harp on the derpy faces and such, but is anyone else mad at the lack of movement? I feel like I'm the only person bringing this up. Crystal is basically a visual novel. I don't feel like I'm watching an anime at all. When there is movement it's so stiff. The characters can't freely express themselves. Why must they always have their mouths wide open? Then they characters have to tell us what's going on. Don't tell us! Show us! This is not shonen anime!

Crystal just frustrates the hell out of me. I hate what it's doing to one of my favorite series of all time. I can't sit there and enjoy it just because it's a new Sailor Moon. I wonder how non Sailor Moon fans view Crystal. I am really curious.

I know I know. I should stop watching this show. Why watch something that frustrates me? Well I just want to stay in the loop. I want to be able still talk about this show.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 2:45 pm

Looking back, I'm also disappointed by the Moon Pride PV.  The Moon Pride PV made everyone think they were going to take Crystal into an original direction and give us this grand epic finale but if you look at the PV and compare it to the actual ending we got, nothing from the PV actually made it into the show.  We don't see Princess Serenity falling from the sky, or Serenity in front of the Prayer Tower thing, we don't see Endymion engulfed in flames like he is in the PV, and we don't see Serenity and Endymion flying through space trying to catch each other.  If they went with the ending that was in the PV and with that kind of animation budget, it could have been an amazing finale and at least almost as exciting as the original anime's ending.  But instead they chose to went the lazy route with giving us a visual novel of the manga like Godless Yami said and I really think that's the best way to look at Crystal.  I have to wonder how much of this was the fault of Toei and how much of it was the fault of Naoko Takeuchi's insistence on being faithful to the manga.  Because from all the accounts I've heard and some of the interviews I've read, Naoko seems like she's a difficult person to work with and is very insistent on keeping everything her way and while I can understand that Sailor Moon is her baby and she wants it to represent her vision, when you're adapting something into a different medium, sometimes stuff that works in a book form doesn't always work in a TV or movie form and you have to make the necessary alterations to make it flow better.  I really want to know what went on behind the scenes with Crystal that lead us to where we are today because you just know there's a really interesting story behind it.  I also agree episode six was the worst animated episode to me.  I wouldn't mind an occasional close up to their faces and I can see them using it as a technique for dramatic tension or something, but when they do it for like every panel, it's clear they're doing to avoid having to animate backgrounds or having to animate their lips moving.  They did this a bit in episode two as well where they closed up on Umino talking to avoid having to animate his full body.  And it is certainly possible for outsourced animation to look well done.  A perfect example is Makoto Shinkai's anime film, The Garden of Words.  Almost the entire film was outsourced and it's one of the most visually stunning anime masterpieces and there's a world of difference in quality here.  Here's a trailer for outsourced animation done right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udDIkl6z8X0
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 5:18 pm

Garden of Words is a short MOVIE it's not fair to comapre this to TV series and even more to ONA Wink

if you want to compare crystal compare it to F/SN UBW 2014 by Ufotable. it's also a re-adaption and started to come out 2014 (made by a different studio because DEEN s**ks ) Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 5:35 pm

Honestly at this point Naoko probably isn't even involved in Crystal to the extent fans think she is. I mean she worked on PGSM and while I haven't watched it I've heard it's suppose to be her 'true' vision and is considered one of the best adaptions of Sailor Moon even to this day. I think the reason Crystal is following the manga so much isn't because of her or because they want to honor the original work, its just laziness. It's easier to copy something that already exist then work on your own material. I think that if Toei had actually cared we would have gotten a series that had been solely dedicated to the DK ark, that had the MP-level of animation, and just a better series overall.

Basically Toei (and even the Crystal staff to certain extent) are to blame for this mess in my opinion. I still won't get over when the producer of the show pretty much admitted that the only reason they kept the generals alive was to make the girls stand out. That's insulting to the characters and Naoko's work. The girls didn't have as much character development as the 90s anime but each of them stood out to me in the manga when I first read it and even to this day.

And yes those blu-ray covers are a complete mess.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 6:59 pm

I'm conflicted over the Shittennou pairings because on the one hand I like their idea in theory but on the other, I also feel like it contradicts the feminist message of the original manga, that the Inners were so devoted to Usagi and fighting for justice that they would give up romance for justice.  I always found that to be a refreshing change of pace from how so much of Western media always tries to pair every girl up in a movie or TV show with a boyfriend it seems likes and it was nice having some single female role models that could kick butt on their own without the aid of a man.  It also seems to contradict the feminist message of the Moon Pride theme song where it says they don't need the protection of men.  And I also don't like how it basically retcons Zoisite and Kunzite's relationship.  I mean, I know their relationship was an anime only addition, but there's so very few serious main gay characters in TV as there is, especially in animation, so as a gay fan of Sailor Moon, I found their relationship to be an important development in the history of animation, even if they were evil, that here are these gay characters who are serious characters and not just treated as comic relief.  On the other hand, I do love how the Soldiers' relationships with the Shittennou were portrayed in Seramyu, like Venus' tragic romance with Kunzite in the Gaiden musical and more recently with Ami's relationship with Zoisite in La Reconquista because they actually fleshed it out and gave us some meaningful character interaction in the musicals.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 7:19 pm

I don't mind KuzitexZoisite, but their relationship wasn't really that fleshed out in the original anime. So it doesn't bother me that they're not together in other versions. The same can be said for InnersxGenerals. It's just fun to RP InnersXGenerals because you can do anything. I'm sure you can do anything with a KunzitexZoisite RP as well.  

Always thought it was unfair that Usagi could find love and the other girls couldn't. Neptune and Uranus are devoted to their princess, but were in a relationship together. I'm sure the Inners could pull it off. Not all of them need to find love, but it would be nice to see some of them in a relationship. I feel like at some point in Crystal Tokyo NQS would be like girls could be free!! Find love!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   25th January 2015, 9:42 pm

What I really want is for this to be canon

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 12:06 pm

As a girl I find this scene opposite of empowering. Asking them to give potential love for their princess who herself has her Miracle Romance doesn't have any merits.
That said, execution of senshi/shittenou in Crystal didn't end this unfairness, it only added to it, as usagi came to be the only one to keep her guy. Also, it looked more as one big ship than four individual relationships.

Also, creators had some problems with fitting alive generals in the narrative, where in manga they were already dead.  

@Goddess Yami wrote:
I know a lot people harp on the derpy faces and such, but is anyone else mad at the lack of movement?
Me. I don't know, is to be tribute to manga? (lack of animation also makes wonkiness more visible IMO).

@Neon Genesis wrote:
The Moon Pride PV made everyone think they were going to take Crystal into an original direction and give us this grand epic finale but if you look at the PV and compare it to the actual ending we got, nothing from the PV actually made it into the show. 

 Moon Pride is so different in style from the actual show that it would strange if we saw it? Also, these fragments were meant as flashback to Silver Millenium, not as finale.

@Neon Genesis wrote:
I have to wonder how much of this was the fault of Toei and how much of it was the fault of Naoko Takeuchi's insistence on being faithful to the manga.  Because from all the accounts I've heard and some of the interviews I've read, Naoko seems like she's a difficult person to work with and is very insistent on keeping everything her way and while I can understand that Sailor Moon is her baby and she wants it to represent her vision, when you're adapting something into a different medium, sometimes stuff that works in a book form doesn't always work in a TV or movie form and you have to make the necessary alterations to make it flow better. 
I also believe Naoko was the one to push for the faithfulness to manga, which is Crystal biggest problem (Toei however has responsibility for budget).

@Neon Genesis wrote:
And I also don't like how it basically retcons Zoisite and Kunzite's relationship. 

Zoi/Kunz will always be canon in original anime. Each version is separate continuity.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 2:44 pm

I think my biggest disappointment with Crystal is how much it's divided the fandom.  Maybe I'm just being nostalgic but it seems like in the past, while we had our disagreements, most people were more respectful of each others' disagreements.  Like some fans might disagree over whether the original anime or the manga were better but people could accept not everyone agrees with their opinion.  Nowadays it seems like you have people on both sides of the issues over Crystal being overly defensive and rude to each other.   It frankly seems a bit hypocritical when Moonies behave badly too given that we're all supposed to be fans of a series that preaches the values of forgiving your enemies and love as the most powerful force.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 2:49 pm

At this point I don't think Sailor Moon has anything do with how the fans are treating each other. I think it's just how the environment is on the internet is in general. It has gotten extremely toxic. Why? I think it's because we can hide ourselves behind computer screens. We don't have to directly talk to people anymore face to face. So all manners go out the door. Now I'm not saying that everyone is like this. There are still people on the internet who treat others with respect.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 5:28 pm

That's a good point.  The unfiltered content of social media sites like Tumblr probably aren't helping things either.  Before the social media craze, it seems like most of the Sailor Moon Internet discussion took place on forums and the like where at least there was some moderation going on to keep things getting out of hand.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 5:43 pm

Yeah, social media pretty much killed forums. I mean they're still around...we're on one right now..

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 8:02 pm

I'd argue that the fandom has always been like this, it's just that SMC has encouraged discussion again.

Sailor Moon Crystal was the very thing that got me involved in looking up the Sailor Moon community. Before that, I was a fan of the manga and hardly ever interacted with other Sailor Moon fans. I knew that many of them disagreed with my opinions. I never held any malice against them but I knew what direction discussions would go.

I started off liking SMC, so I quickly joined this site and others and got involved in discussion. Little did I realize the path it would go. I think many Sailor Moon fans went the same path I did. They started talking positively and then bashed it when the truth was later revealed.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 8:15 pm

I agree with CJ, however, we should probably stop talking about the fandom since one of the rules Jupiter listed for this topic is to not discuss the fandom. uwu.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 11:15 pm

I don't see any rules that state that we shouldn't talk negatively about the opinions of others, though that would very well constitute as bullying. Talking about a fanbase overall I think is OK, so long as specific individuals are not targeted in discussions.

Changing the topic though, I've said before on these forums that I pray Crystal doesn't get to Stars. The manga adaptation of Stars is my favorite part of Sailor Moon period and I would hate to witness a lackluster version of it. If I was a normal fan, I'd turn away from it and never even watch it, but my blog is too much fun to write. That being said, Black Moon is my personal least favorite arc so these next episodes are going to be especially painful for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   26th January 2015, 11:41 pm

Has anyone been watching the new episodes of One Piece and Pretty Cure to see how their animation quality is holding up?  Besides Crystal and the first episode of that horrible World Trigger show, the most recent Toei anime I've seen was the DBZ Battle of Gods movie and that movie actually had very good animation though that was a movie and so I don't know it can be compared and so I wanted to know how their other TV shows are going.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   27th January 2015, 7:46 am

Sailor Jupiter wrote:
This thread has been started to discuss your dislikes of SMC, and while everyone is entitled to their opinion this is NOT a discussion about the fandom.  This topic is specifically for the dislikes about the show its self. 

She says it here. And to answer you question Neon, I haven't watched any new episodes of One Piece or Pretty Cure. Although when the Moon Pride video came out I saw an angry comment from a One Piece fan. They seemed to be angry over how the video how quality animation yet Toei doesn't but any effort in animating their other shows well so I guess SM fans aren't the only ones who are suffering.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion on dislike of SMC   27th January 2015, 8:15 am

Yunie wrote:
Sailor Jupiter wrote:
This thread has been started to discuss your dislikes of SMC, and while everyone is entitled to their opinion this is NOT a discussion about the fandom.  This topic is specifically for the dislikes about the show its self. 

She says it here.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'd love to talk about the fandom in general. Maybe I could start up an outside chat about it if people are interested. Otherwise I might have to stick to the Sailor Moon subreddit for that topic.

@Neon Genesis wrote:
Has anyone been watching the new episodes of One Piece and Pretty Cure to see how their animation quality is holding up?  Besides Crystal and the first episode of that horrible World Trigger show, the most recent Toei anime I've seen was the DBZ Battle of Gods movie and that movie actually had very good animation though that was a movie and so I don't know it can be compared and so I wanted to know how their other TV shows are going.
I don't know anything about Pretty Cure but One Piece is just as bad as Sailor Moon Crystal, if not worse. I always beg OP fans to read the manga and not the crappy weekly anime. Toei Animation is just terrible in general. Just wait until they eff up the Digimon anime.

You can find some of those screenshots here: http://oen-peice.tumblr.com/

But here's some of my favorites:







That last one is a full sized screenshot. It's not zoomed it.

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