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PostSubject: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 8:21 am



Debate: Are the relationships between the senshi and shittenou canon or fanon?


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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 10:47 am

I always felt that the relationships were possibly canon. I think Naoko had mentioned somewhere either in an interview or in one of her blurbs in the original manga, that she had thought about pairing them all together (hence this illustration). In the manga itself, it is not really brought up except for in the case of Venus and Kunzite. Venus is show sometimes staring at Kunzite or blushing around him in the few clips of the Moon Kingdom Naoko shows. I think at that point, it was more of a crush rather than anything serious. Especially with Serenity running off to Earth to see Endymion so much.

It becomes fanon when people make them into seriously couples, but I have no problem with it if its done well. I like how Four King Hell is kind of approaching the possible relationships. It's rather hilarious and the girls really aren't that interested, except for Minako, who goes over the top. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 10:49 am

I agree partially with B-chan, although I feel that it is really a fanon pairing based off of this type of image. It was only slightly insinuated with Venus and Kunzite in the manga during one the flashbacks of the Moon Kingdom. As B-chan said, Kunzite makes a teasing remark to Venus and she in return blushes. But other than that, Naoko never touches on the subject and we do not see the Senshi and Shittenou paired together even in other artwork (I do not believe so, at least).

I think this image was just one of Naoko's fun pieces and the fans thought it only to make sense to pair the four guardians of Princess Serenity to match with Endymion's four guardians.


(i will be honest though, i ship kunzite/zoicite all the way. Razz)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 10:52 am

Its hard to say if the girls of the Moon Kingdom would have gone for them either (except for maybe Venus, in Code Name wa Sailor V, Adonis even mentions "even back then you were always falling in love" and a picture of her staring after Kunzite). But we don't really know what their personalities are like back then compared to the present. Would the past Mar hate men like the present one does? Cause if a lot of their personalities did roll over, then I don't see past Mars getting with any men at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 11:32 am

I kind of feel like the Senshi and Shittenou are a mix of canon and fanon, actually. Naoko did toy with the idea, which makes it at very least sub-canon.

But, even though they did reincarnate, that doesn't mean they're carbon copies of their old life. So, the possibility remains in both of them. I personally don't have a One True Ship, so I do like the idea when it's nicely presented and well done in the chosen media.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 11:38 am

Sailor Jupiter wrote:

I think this image was just one of Naoko's fun pieces and the fans thought it only to make sense to pair the four guardians of Princess Serenity to match with Endymion's four guardians.
Razz)

I guess it was only to show which Senshi the Shittenou could have been compared to if we are talking about the position each of them had toward Serenity or Endymion. Probably also because of some similarities they had too.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 12:19 pm

This may sound silly, but in a way, I think this is cannon-fandom on both parts. Since Naoko did state that she had thought about pairing up the other Sailor Senshi (Inner) and the Shinnentou, hence the illustration, the thought was there but I don't think every really expanded on (with the exception of Minako, possibly). Since not much is even known about the Inner Senshi as they were in their past life other than they were Serenity's court and guardians, this idea has really never been explored by Naoko other than this illustration. Hence, why I think it's fandom on the creator's part but has the possiblity to be cannon if it were ever fully expanded on by Naoko herself.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 4:34 pm

I always thought there was something going on with Kunzite and Zoicite? Plus I was more for Jadeite and Makoto for some strange reason. As an original anime watcher I always love Nephrite and Naru. Always. ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 5:38 pm

@Halfpixieman wrote:
As an original anime watcher I always love Nephrite and Naru. Always. ^_^

Hehe, got to agree with this one, Pixie. ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    29th November 2011, 5:46 pm

^^ I've always liked the idea, and with the illustration Naoko provided I say one could call it canon. XD Especially, as everyone has already mentioned, Venus and Kunzite. I loved their part in Sailor Moon, Another Story, what with their "secret meetings" via the Arc. Mwahaha, Princess Serenity wasn't the only one sneaking off to Earth for a romantic rendezvous.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    7th December 2011, 9:27 pm

I've always though it was canon for some reason. I mean, it's could be legit. I could see both the senshi and shitennou trying to figure out ways to keep Serenity and Endymion away from each other, but then ironically, they fall in love in the same way.

Anything is possible! I mean it is the past, right? HAHA

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    7th December 2011, 9:32 pm

I can totally see it being canon in the past in a what if way. I think Naoko might have been thinking that they would have all paired up eventually if the Moon Kingdom hadn't been destroyed and the Shitennou being corrupted and brain washed to work for Beryl. I think if the attack hadn't of happened, Serenity and Endymion would have eventually become open about their rendezvous and married, thus further uniting the two kingdoms. It would have been nice if that had happened... Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    8th December 2011, 1:23 am

Couldn't one of them rebel though, instead of all liking each other's clique's? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    8th December 2011, 1:30 am

@Halfpixieman wrote:
Couldn't one of them rebel though, instead of all liking each other's clique's? Wink

If one were to rebel, I always figured it'd be Mars. I've always imagined her past self to be just as fiesty as her present self and probably still not really interested in men.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    8th December 2011, 2:05 am

Definitely, she's very independent almost a feminist. She'd always be willing to do the unpredictable things. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    19th December 2011, 6:07 pm

In the musicals "Gaiden Dark Kingdom Fukkatsu Hen", its revision, "Eien Densetsu", its revision and "Starlights~Ryuusei Densetsu" there was definite romancing between the girls and the Shitennou. The songs "Saikyou no Couple Gundan" "Itsuwari no Forevermore" and "Koi no Dangerous" were about that. Though, they were just luring the girls into a trap. Perhaps they had unrequired romance in a previous life that was discontinued in the 20th century? A similar situation as Beryl and Mamoru?

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    19th December 2011, 8:23 pm

Sailor Venus wrote:


Debate: Are the relationships between the senshi and shittenou canon or fanon?


I'm sorry this was so accidental but let's take a look at where Nephrite's hand is on Sailor Jupiter... Nephrite, you cheeky devil!
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    19th December 2011, 8:26 pm

@Halfpixieman wrote:
Sailor Venus wrote:


Debate: Are the relationships between the senshi and shittenou canon or fanon?


I'm sorry this was so accidental but let's take a look at where Nephrite's hand is on Sailor Jupiter... Nephrite, you cheeky devil!
If we're going there, then let's stop and take a gander at how Jupiter is kissing Nephrite's fingers. ^.~ suuuper sensual and suggestive.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    19th December 2011, 8:29 pm

LOL.

You can certainly see the difference in all the relationships there. I think it's sweet the way Kunzite has his arms wrapped around Sailor Venus. Naww. Naoko does such a nice job with her work!
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 3:56 pm

I, for one, am a huge shipper of senshi/shitennou. This picture and rp's and other fans have converted me to it over time and it's just canon in my head. There is a shot in Sailor V of Kunzite and Sailor Venus from, presumably the silver mellinuim, and also there is that panel form Sailor Moon where Kunzite and Minako meet eyes across the yard and she starts to blush and then Endymion pushes Kunzite I believe. That's what really sold me. I mean. It's hinted at in Canon, so as somebody in the thread said, it's "sub-canon" definately, but the actual relationships I believe are fanon. Delightful fanon, but fanon. I never noticed Mako kissing Nephrites fingers. That just makes me happy inside.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 5:08 pm

I don't like the Shitennou and the Senshi pairing actually... I don't think they're deserving to be with ami, minako, rei and mako... i mean they did sell themselves to Metalia. Besides I always felt Minako is a little like Setsuna in the way that she realises she will never be in love...

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 6:41 pm

UndergroundSources wrote:
I don't like the Shitennou and the Senshi pairing actually... I don't think they're deserving to be with ami, minako, rei and mako... i mean they did sell themselves to Metalia. Besides I always felt Minako is a little like Setsuna in the way that she realises she will never be in love...

Didn't the Shitennou become brainwashed in some way, like everyone else on Earth except Prince Endymion who was somehow immune to it all?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 6:45 pm

@Halfpixieman wrote:
UndergroundSources wrote:
I don't like the Shitennou and the Senshi pairing actually... I don't think they're deserving to be with ami, minako, rei and mako... i mean they did sell themselves to Metalia. Besides I always felt Minako is a little like Setsuna in the way that she realises she will never be in love...

Didn't the Shitennou become brainwashed in some way, like everyone else on Earth except Prince Endymion who was somehow immune to it all?

Yea. It's just like when Chaos took over the senshi, and when Metalia took over Endymion, and when Mamoru got brainwashed every other season. He's forgiven so easily though. (Not that I'm complaining)

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 7:09 pm

@Chikyuu wrote:
@Halfpixieman wrote:
Didn't the Shitennou become brainwashed in some way, like everyone else on Earth except Prince Endymion who was somehow immune to it all?

Yea. It's just like when Chaos took over the senshi, and when Metalia took over Endymion, and when Mamoru got brainwashed every other season. He's forgiven so easily though. (Not that I'm complaining)

Haha, yes! Except when Mamoru hits Usagi in Stars (whilst brainwashed as usual) I was like, uh no how could you!? LOL. Then I was positioned to like Seiya a bit but secretly I will always stay true to Mamoru. He is the one for Usagi and he is fabulous. Wink

If anyone has any headcanon ideas about the Shitennou X Senshi, their relationships, the brainwashing etc. post it in the Headcanon thread in this forum section, I'm really interested to hear from you!
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 7:28 pm

@Halfpixieman wrote:
UndergroundSources wrote:
I don't like the Shitennou and the Senshi pairing actually... I don't think they're deserving to be with ami, minako, rei and mako... i mean they did sell themselves to Metalia. Besides I always felt Minako is a little like Setsuna in the way that she realises she will never be in love...

Didn't the Shitennou become brainwashed in some way, like everyone else on Earth except Prince Endymion who was somehow immune to it all?

It was sort of brainwashing due to them selling themselves as far as I remember. They were willing to overthrow the Moon like many of the people of Earth, it was just enhanced by Metalia.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 8:15 pm

UndergroundSources wrote:
@Halfpixieman wrote:
UndergroundSources wrote:
I don't like the Shitennou and the Senshi pairing actually... I don't think they're deserving to be with ami, minako, rei and mako... i mean they did sell themselves to Metalia. Besides I always felt Minako is a little like Setsuna in the way that she realises she will never be in love...

Didn't the Shitennou become brainwashed in some way, like everyone else on Earth except Prince Endymion who was somehow immune to it all?

It was sort of brainwashing due to them selling themselves as far as I remember. They were willing to overthrow the Moon like many of the people of Earth, it was just enhanced by Metalia.

Manga Rerelease, Volume 2, about midway through wrote:

Endymion: Why do you fight?
Kunzite, speaking for all: Your Highness, we have had enough of being ordered around! We can no longer stand the actions of the Kingdom of the Moon! The way they spy on us from a distance!
Endymion: When have you been ordered around or spied on?! Whose words are you repeating? That repugnant creature's? Do you not see?! We are simply being made its tools!
:
:
Kunzite remembering: A memory from our earlier lives? ...Yes, it is! We were reborn in order to search for our master - Prince Endymion-sama! But before our memories had returned to us, we fell once again into their hands! And we sold ourselves. Then... our bodies were changed.

So, yes and no. They were won over by Beryl/Metalia's compelling propaganda in the Silver Millennium, but when they were reborn he did say they sold themselves, probably for power and whatnot, or perhaps they were won over by her oratorical skills yet again. Regardless, I think each had seen the light in the end, remembering who their Prince was and yet were unable to change their fate. As Beryl said, they were reborn for her, recreated. Any time they were reborn, they would be under her spell.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 8:18 pm

Beryl was in the same situation, she was partially willing and sold herself to Metalia. Personally I'm far more sympathetic to Beryl than the Shitennou. Beryl in both PGSM and the manga acknowledged she had made a terrible mistake... in the musicals she even recanted and saved Sailor Moon's life.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 8:37 pm

But didn't Kunzite do the very same for Endymion in the manga? His stone stopped the blade from completely killing him.

And you can tell he regrets ever joining by the look on his face. He only stayed because Beryl promised that the Silver Crystal would heal his friends and they would be free, and when she hinted that it was otherwise, he demanded to know what she was going to do to Endymion...
Kunzite wrote:
Queen Beryl. I thought you said that if you got your hands on the "Legendary Silver Crystal" that we Four Kings of Heaven would be revived.
Beryl looks over, all 'Not my problem', "Their bodies crumbled. What can I do?"
Kunzite's shocked and looks almost afraid, remembering the death scene of Prince Endymion in the Silver Millennium. The Four Kings look upon the scene and its as though the world dropped out from beneath them. Kunzite thinks, '[i]Are you saying that the moment we chose the path that took us into the clutches of evil, it became too late for regrets?
' and demands, "The Prince! What do you intend to do with the body of Endymion?"
and she was all "bwahahaha, brainwash!"
Beryl wrote:
Never forget the words of your vow to our great ruler! Or that you have given your body to me! You may be reborn again and again, but you Four Kings of Heaven will always be my minions!"

I think they deserve a second chance, and that the senshi would not hold their past against them, especially once they were reborn outside of Beryl's ownership.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    17th January 2012, 8:57 pm

After all, we've all discussed how the Senshi sacrifice love in order to protect the Princess.

How do we know (headcanon alert) that the Senshi weren't the ones to turn their backs on the Shitennou and their love causing the Shitennou to easily fall into the hands of Metalia? Likewise it's suggested Beryl's unrequited love for Prince Endymion would have assisted in her despair and therefore, said soul selling.

Quite frankly I feel sorry for all of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: SenshixShittenou - Canon or Fanon?    18th January 2012, 12:04 am

Beryl was in love with two things: Endymion and the Earth itself. She saw Serenity as a rival, she grew to hate Serenity, and by extension the Moon. This hatred was amplified by Metalia and soon she was taken over completely. All she really wanted to do was be Queen of the Earth with Endymion by her side. Its very very commonly misunderstood that Beryl had intentions to destroy the Earth. There's implications in one of the musicals that Usagi is not the first incarnation of Serenity since the fall of the Moon Kingdom. However the 20th century was the first time Sailor Moon appeared and the first time since the Moon Kingdom's destruction that the Sailor Senshi were reincarnated. Perhaps the Shitennou and Guardian Senshi fell in love in a life between The Moon Kingdom and the 20th Century? Just they weren't Sailor Senshi?

Basically Sailor Moon was originally a story about jealousy and romance. Then eventually turned to other themes.

or thats how i see it anyway

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