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PostSubject: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   7th March 2015, 11:31 pm

So I was just thinking to myself, why is it that in the future when the Sailor Soldiers are all mega-powerful and are aware of time travel, why don't they just go back in time to defeat Queen Metalia before she invaded the Moon Kingdom and caused all that mess?  Even without Sailor Cosmos, I'm sure Neo Queen Serenity and the Super Sailor Soldiers could take down Queen Metalia in like five seconds compared to their Dark Kingdom powers.  And I know it's forbidden to travel in time, but then Chibi-usa did that and nothing all that terrible seemed to happen, so I don't know why they can't go back all the way to the Moon Kingdom to save it.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   7th March 2015, 11:33 pm

Because there would be no plot. Everything that happened in the series would be severly altered, Crystal Tokyo would cease to exist and there is also that problem of being in the same time as your past/future self

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 7:45 am

There's also the problem of going back in time and changing something that happened in the past of your world.  It's like going back in time to when your mother and your father first met and doing something to prevent them from meeting.  If that happens, you would suddenly cease to exist.  Didn't the Back To The Future movies address that point somewhere?

Plus, I remember watching an episode of the original version of Star Trek where Kirk and Spock have to go back in time to the beginning of World War II.  Back in that past time, Kirk notices a woman that he at least feels sorry for, if not falls in love with.  But the two of them know that in the first run-through of that history, this woman dies when she is run over by a car.  And Spock, by using one of his sci-fi machines, figures out that even if they alter this one seemingly-minor event to let her live, that one little change would cause ripple effects on the flow of history, because that woman - a peace activist - would then go on to convince Franklin Delano Roosevelt to not join the British and resistance French in the war against the Nazis.  And with the United States not helping the British and resistance French in Europe, the Nazis would go on to conquer Earth and win World War II.

Now if changing that one seemingly-minor event would cause that much of a change in the time in which Kirk and Spock go travelling through space, imagine what such a major change to Moon Kingdom history in the Silver Millennium would cause to even 1990s Earth!

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 7:56 am

^That's a good point, and that's the big problem with time travel. You don't know what's going to happen. If they did go back and destroy the Dark Kingdom, at the very least Chibiusa as we know her might not exist. Or she could be replaced with someone else. And then of course, as has been pointed out, there's the risk of a time paradox and breaking the whole time-space continuum, and you don't want to know what Setsuna will have to do to fix it.

Of course, the idea of time travel and Crystal Tokyo does bring up some larger questions, something that's always bugged me about CT. While the characters don't know exactly when it will happen, they now know that Crystal Tokyo will come about following a massive planet wide disaster that will no doubt result in a giant death toll.

That being the case, one wonders if the characters are the sort that would be able to sit back and still let that disaster happen. Not everyone would, no matter the consequences to their personal future.

It also raises the question of, since they know about the Black Moon Clan in the past, would they attempt to NOT banish them to Nemesis the next time around, and possibly prevent the disaster that came before?
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 8:04 am

^My theory is that NQS wanted Chibiusa's powers to awaken so she banished them anyways. Kinda sad though

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 8:08 am

I would like to think she'd find other ways to deal with it than banishing them again and setting all that in motion. Maybe the timeline fractured after that and created alternate timelines.

Though in things did change because Chibiusa went into the past, then the place she returned to might not be the same, and it gets really weird. Time travel is just headache inducing sometimes, isn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 8:11 am

@Phantom53 wrote:
I would like to think she'd find other ways to deal with it than banishing them again and setting all that in motion. Maybe the timeline fractured after that and created alternate timelines.

Though in things did change because Chibiusa went into the past, then the place she returned to might not be the same, and it gets really weird. Time travel is just headache inducing sometimes, isn't it?
Tell me about it. Especially writing it into my fanfiction. Now that is gonna be paradox i'm not looking forward to explaining

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 8:20 am

Just take it nice and slow with the ideas, break it down piece by piece until you can follow it yourself. After all, if you can't follow it, then you probably won't be able to get your readers to follow. Smile

And if you can, run the ideas by someone and see if they follow along.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 11:28 am

@Phantom53 wrote:
I would like to think she'd find other ways to deal with it than banishing them again and setting all that in motion. Maybe the timeline fractured after that and created alternate timelines.

Though in things did change because Chibiusa went into the past, then the place she returned to might not be the same, and it gets really weird. Time travel is just headache inducing sometimes, isn't it?
What confuses me about Chibi-usa's time travel is what happens to the Four Spectre Sisters in the future?  Do they become evil again even after Usagi made them good in the past?  Are they stuck in this eternal time loop of turning good only to turn evil?  Or are there two groups of Spectre Sisters in the future?  The evil ones and the good ones?
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 11:30 am

@Neon Genesis wrote:
@Phantom53 wrote:
I would like to think she'd find other ways to deal with it than banishing them again and setting all that in motion. Maybe the timeline fractured after that and created alternate timelines.

Though in things did change because Chibiusa went into the past, then the place she returned to might not be the same, and it gets really weird. Time travel is just headache inducing sometimes, isn't it?
What confuses me about Chibi-usa's time travel is what happens to the Four Spectre Sisters in the future?  Do they become evil again even after Usagi made them good in the past?  Are they stuck in this eternal time loop of turning good only to turn evil?  Or are there two groups of Spectre Sisters in the future?  The evil ones and the good ones?

Or maybe the good ones were part of the casualties in whatever massive world-ending disaster preceded Crystal Tokyo....

Sorry, that was morbid. Honestly it's a good question, and no evidence to provide any sort of answer.


Last edited by Phantom53 on 8th March 2015, 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding something)
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   8th March 2015, 1:37 pm

Time/space travel is something that's both really interesting in the Sailor Moon universe, but is also a massive headache. On the one hand there's a lot of possibilities for fanfic plots, but when you get down to the logic and continuity it's a mess. The simplest answer for a lot of these questions and complications is that Naoko Takeuchi probably didn't think all of it through in detail. For example, something I've always tried to grapple with is, if Eternal Sailor Moon eventually defeats Chaos, why does NQS not know this? The easiest answer is that it would diminish the drama in that moment, when NQS realizes something is wrong in the past timeline, but if she already know what would happen it would also undo the dramatic tension in the story.

Similarly, as Kitty said, a story needs a conflict. And if that conflict were to be removed early on there would be no story to tell. I think that's why some of these counter-intuitive and confusing time related issues exists in Sailor Moon. They're there to provide a dramatic device to carry the story forward.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   11th March 2015, 10:16 am

I think also what you guys aren't considering is that by time traveling it could be causing different time lines (like what happened in Dragonball Z). So there could be two alternate futures or even multiple ones. Though I wonder how that would work with Pluto...guarding time/space door and stuff...she would know what time traveling does...

Honestly, everything boils down to the fact that Naoko didn't plan anything past Black Moon in the first place and the rest of the story is just really just thrown together and probably pulling stuff out of her butt as far as the developed world goes. Not that that's a bad thing, just makes it harder on us fans lol!

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   11th March 2015, 10:50 am

Yeah, it means we have to work out all the bugs. Everyone get your tools... this could take a while.


...you know, I just now noticed that the brackets around "theory" in the title aren't matching. Huh.
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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   11th March 2015, 12:05 pm

Poor Naoko. Her story can be picked too death. Razz

Even if they could go save the Moon Kingdom what would be the point? Crystal Tokyo is basically the second reign of the Moon Kingdom, but on Earth. Plus if they did do that they will all cease to exist. Remember Usagi is not Serenity.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   12th March 2015, 7:07 pm

Time travelling is just too hard to understand.

Remember in stars when Chibi-usa faded away? Well then Hotaru should've faded away too, since they would've never met, so the death buster would've been able to destroy earth.

So chibi-usa fades, THE WORLD ENDS! 

Plus when she came back, the group shouldn't have remembered who she was since she got erased from the timeline so they never met. 

Besides if the sailors went back in time to save the kingdom, we wouldn't have modern tokyo! Plus Usagi and Mamoru wouldn't have ever been able to be together since there love was forbidden. Plus the outer soldier would still be stuck in space at their stations, and Saturn wouldn't have ever awakened to finish off the remains of the moon kingdom.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   12th March 2015, 7:39 pm

@Phantom53 wrote:
^That's a good point, and that's the big problem with time travel. You don't know what's going to happen. If they did go back and destroy the Dark Kingdom, at the very least Chibiusa as we know her might not exist. Or she could be replaced with someone else. And then of course, as has been pointed out, there's the risk of a time paradox and breaking the whole time-space continuum, and you don't want to know what Setsuna will have to do to fix it.

Of course, the idea of time travel and Crystal Tokyo does bring up some larger questions, something that's always bugged me about CT. While the characters don't know exactly when it will happen, they now know that Crystal Tokyo will come about following a massive planet wide disaster that will no doubt result in a giant death toll.

That being the case, one wonders if the characters are the sort that would be able to sit back and still let that disaster happen. Not everyone would, no matter the consequences to their personal future.

It also raises the question of, since they know about the Black Moon Clan in the past, would they attempt to NOT banish them to Nemesis the next time around, and possibly prevent the disaster that came before?
New theory of mine!

Everytime Chibiusa returns to CT, she creates a new timeline. The original timeline she comes from is where the Senshi faced no further threat than Beryl (or Ail and Ann). The timeline she comes back too is where they fought the Death Busters. And so on for each season

As for the Black Moon, since Usagi knew the fate of the Black Moon Clan from having to face them as Sailor Moon, so i like to think she reforms them in the future and Esmeraude finds out she's Sailor Nemesis and becomes part of Court of the Silver Millenium

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   13th March 2015, 3:57 am

I would also go with the mutltiple timelines theory, but not exclusively Chibiusa might create them.
At the end of Dark Kingdom, at least in Crystal but I think also in the manga, Usagi had the choice to become the new Queen Serenity. As we know from Black Moon, she became the queen of Crystal Tokyo somewhat later, but she might have been the queen of the moon at that point, so Crystal Tokyo could be the timeline in which she accepted the crown. When the disaster that created Crystal Tokyo occured, she might have prevented it together with Endymion and the Inner Senshi and have been crowned on earth. We do not know what happened to the Outer Senshi in that timeline (minus Pluto), but it is possible that they might have not been awakened because the events that lead to their awakening never happened- we do not know what would have changed if Usagi had become the new Queen Serenity after Dark Kingdom.
Also, Sailor Cosmos said that in her timeline, Chaos existed and she was a (future) incarnation of Usagi- what we know from Black Moon is that Chaos is not known threat and that Usagi can no longer transform, but will possibly live for a very long time/ is technically immortal. So a future incarnation of Usagi that CAN transform might not be from the same timeline as Neo Queen Serenity. Even though, due to her Odango shape, Cosmos might not BE Usagi but a descendant- but she might still be an reinarnaction of her ancestor.
So technically, it might be possible that we have at least 3 timelines: The standard timeline, which is the one all the events of the manga and anime take place in, the Crystal Tokyo timeline, where Usagi becomes Queen Serenity and the Cosmos timeline, where Cosmos fails to defeat Chaos and thus travels through time.
Also, the Crystal Tokyo timeline is somewhat stable, because Chibiusa can return there and nothing changes- while she seems to be older when she returns, it could also be that she returns from a later point of the unchanged future OR a changed future. It's never told. But I do believe the future doesn't change (like Trunks' timeline in DBZ), because I always felt like the protagonist Usagi would not become Neo Queen.
We do not know if Cosmos' timeline remains unchanged, but it might be that she returns and defeats Chaos herself after Sailor Moon gave her courage.

The multi-timeline is my personal explanation of how time-traveling in Sailor Moon works ^^

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   13th March 2015, 1:41 pm

The way I understood it, is that there are 3 current timelines in the Sailor Moon Universe, like Suzu said. I'll expand on it a bit as how I see it. 

The NQS and Crystal Tokyo one as shown in the second Arc. Sailor Moon fought the Dark Kingdom and whatever else came her way (not the black moon though) and eventually became NQS after whatever disaster destroyed the world/tokyo. Later she and Mamoru have Chibi-usa, and then the issues with the Black Moon occurred, but of which were eventually resolved (even if it was resolved due to interference from SM and the gang). My guess is that this timeline continued on as 'normal' as possible from here without much change aside from Chibi-usa going to train. She could do her training two ways: She goes but returns to Crystal Tokyo at the exact moment she left, making it seem like shes never gone. OR should could adjust her return to make it feel more like 'real' time has passed. kinda like if she was just away at boarding school or something. 

Then there is the main plot. This one is very similar to the first; we know sailor moon has awakened, and fought the dark kingdom. BUT I see it as splitting from the first once the Black Moon comes. We all know most of the story. After that, its a tossup of what the future holds. It is highly possible that Usagi and Mamoru still become King and Queen eventually, either after a disaster or something else occurs. Or, they might do something that causes the disaster/event not to happen and they can live 'normal' lives as much as possible. Because they expect to have Chibi-usa, its possible that that alters what children they actually do have, and that she won't exist or at least would be different in this timeline (different personality).

The Third is almost exactly like the second, up until Sailor Moon has a chance to defeat chaos. In this one she fails and loses everything.


Now, as we all know these three timelines come into contact but I feel like that can't really affect each other too much. NQS sending chibi-usa back with affect the future in THAT timeline, and could affect the second timeline in a way, but NQS or Chibi-usa won't stop existing in the first timeline because the PAST of that timeline is not being altered. Same with Cosmos coming to warn Sailor Moon - she will still exist in the third timeline but she is just ensuring this second timeline doesn't make the same mistake she did. 

The only part where this theory is messed up is in the first mini arc in Stars - when Chibi-usa starts disappearing because Mamoru is possessed by Nehelenia and it looks like him and Usagi won't end up together to create Chibi-usa. With the timeline theory this shouldn't affect Chibi-usa because she is from the other timeline which has a past independent of the one where this is taking place, and UsaXMamo are from the main timeline, in which its already a toss up on if Chibi-usa will exist or not. To make Chibi-usa start to 'disappear' like this with the different timeline theory, something would have to happen in the past of the other timeline, meaning that to do so on purpose someone would have to travel there. Nothing in the 'main plot' timeline could be done to affect Chibi-usa while still in that timeline unless done to her directly. This is the only part I can think of that supposed that the NQS 'future' is indeed in the same timeline as the main plot/current era timeline.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   12th July 2015, 11:19 am

Ahhhh, it's so complicated. This is worse than the Zelda timeline! Or Series Six of Doctor Who.

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   5th December 2015, 1:22 am

Haha Time Travel Paradoxes are my specialty!

In Sailor Moon , we could look at it from the way of a predestined paradox but since the manga does hint to it being more "cause and effect" we'll stick with that. 

Like SayakaSakura said, the original timeline was probably The Senshi not facing any other threats bar Beryl. In the time span from Beryl's defeat to the formation of Crystal Tokyo i can see them just fighting random crime, which would gain the people's trust and have them want the uber powerful Sailor Moon as their ruler. Then the BMC attacked and Chibiusa went back in time and created a timeline

If Serenity and her Senshi went back to stop Metallia, their current future would cease to exist due to "The Butterfly Effect". And if their future ceases to exist then THEY themselves might cease to exist. Plus they would be with their past selves and there would be all sorts of confusion and Pluto would probably be facepalming throughout the whole thing

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PostSubject: Re: [Theory] Time Travel Paradox Questions   5th December 2015, 6:00 pm

The Dark Moon Arc answered that question.  Cause It's a taboo.  Traveling to from different times is a big no-no.  I mean even Pluto, who is guardian time, would have died doing that.  Also, the time spectrum could change even the littlest of thing.
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