HomePortalFAQRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Neon Genesis
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-07-14

PostSubject: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 1:12 pm

Since today is International Women's Day, I thought it would be a good idea to have a discussion on the feminist themes in Sailor Moon.  Do you consider Sailor Moon to be a feminist show?  What feminists themes in the show do you like and is there any aspects in the series that you still find troubling with regards to its portrayal of women?  For me as a feminist ally, I've always seen Sailor Moon as a feminist show and it was these themes that really attracted me to the show in the first place.  I loved that the show portrayed its main superheros as women who were more powerful than the men and were able to save the world from evil.  The series was revolutionary in Japan as one of the first magical girl shows to feature a team of teenage girls who transformed to save the world from evil.  Most previous magical girl shows seemed to focus more on the main character using her magic to become an idol or to use it for wish fulfillment purposes.  Sailor Moon was more influenced by the Super Sentai (the Japanese version of Power Rangers) shows Naoko was a fan of who wanted to create her own version with girls instead. Growing up as a kid, there were very few female superhero role models on TV.  Even though the female characters always seemed to be my favorites, if they were there at all, they were always presented as either weaker than the guys and it seemed like they rarely had any prominent roles in the show.  

Like even though the early 90s X-men animated series had a lot of powerful women characters like Storm, Rogue, and Jean Grey, they rarely seemed to have any starring roles in the major plots as most of the show seemed to still focus on the male characters like Wolverine, Xavier, and Magneto.  Jean Grey seemed to be one of the few female characters to get two on-going subplots with the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas, which are still some of the most iconic storylines in X-men, but it seems like for the rest of the show, she was regulated to just playing the role of Cyclop's girlfriend.  I loved Batgirl in the early 90s Batman animated series but she rarely appeared in the show at all and she was always portrayed as weaker than Batman and Batwoman still hasn't appeared in any TV adaptations of Batman to the best of my knowledge.  In contrast, while the original Sailor Moon anime still had Tuxedo Mask swoop in and save the Sailor Soldiers at the last minute, there were also many times where Tuxedo Mask was captured by the bad guys and it was up to Sailor Moon to save him and I always loved that role reversal of the damsel in distress trope.  

When I first read the original manga, it made me love the feminist themes even more.  I loved that the Sailor Soldiers in the manga were even more powerful than they were in the original anime, being powerful enough to kill off major villains without having to always rely on Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask.  I also loved that the Sailor Soldiers weren't as boy crazy in the manga and their relationships were treated more seriously.  While I loved Sailor Mars in the original anime too, I loved her even more in the manga, with her fiery independence from men.  There are some aspects of Sailor Moon's portrayal of women I do find troubling, like how the series has always had this strange habit of having Mamoru kiss Usagi while she's asleep. 

While the Sailor Soldiers of the original anime are still inspiring to me, their boy crazy attitude in the original show often times made them seem a bit stereotypical to me.   I was also bothered by how the original anime made Sailor Moon seem more dependent on Tuxedo Mask to bail her out whereas in the manga, it seemed like the opposite and Tuxedo Mask was more dependent on Sailor Moon, and I felt like the original version of the R season's portrayal of the breakup subplot was troubling.  On the whole though, I still think Sailor Moon is a powerful and inspiring feminist message and the Sailor Soldiers are wonderful role models for kids.  I also always admired how Naoko Takeuchi fought against the male patriarchy who ran Kodonsha and Toei in order to preserve her vision of what Sailor Moon should be.  So what are your thoughts on feminism in Sailor Moon and its portrayal of women?
Back to top Go down
JupiterThunderCrash
Roleplaying Moderator


Roleplaying Moderator

Title : Scorpio Starsign
Posts : 4379
Join date : 2014-01-16
Age : 20
Location : Dallas, Texas


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 1:24 pm

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think feminism is more than just being better than or simply not needing boys. In the anime, the main girls chase after guys a lot, but I don't think that makes them less independent at all. Girls should be allowed to do what they want, whether it's "stereotypical" or not. You can still very much be a strong female character while still wanting a boyfriend, or wear make up, or buy pretty clothing, or cry sometimes. The point is that they should be allowed to choose. That's the thing about Makoto's character I like so much. She can do both masculine and feminine things and still be a good warrior and a girl. She falls in love with a guy and throws a youma over her head in the same exact episode, and I think that's great ^^

I just think that Sailor Moon liking Tuxedo Mask shouldn't automatically be considered a weakness or detriment to her. It's okay to care about your loved ones ^^. And as you said above, he saves her, but she often saves him when he's been kidnapped or brainwashed. They protect each other when things get really bad. And at the end of the day, she's still stronger than him in terms of raw power, and that's also something you don't often see.

___________________________




 Avatar by Neo-Queen Serenity
Back to top Go down
http://scorpio-rat.tumblr.com/
Sailor CJ
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : GC's Official Sailor Galaxia
Posts : 859
Join date : 2014-07-27
Age : 25
Location : The Engine of the SMC S1/S2 Hate Train


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 1:31 pm

@JupiterThunderCrash wrote:
I just think that Sailor Moon liking Tuxedo Mask shouldn't automatically be considered a weakness or detriment to her. It's okay to care about your loved ones ^^. And as you said above, he saves her, but she often saves him when he's been kidnapped or brainwashed. They protect each other when things get really bad. And at the end of the day, she's still stronger than him in terms of raw power, and that's also something you don't often see.

Yeah, I always hate the argument that Tuxedo Mask is a reverse female token because unlike a lot of female tokens, he actually contributes to the narrative. Not to mention, there are plenty of other male characters that populate the cast.

I think that Sailor Moon is a feminist story, at least from a manga perspective. Thinking back to the confrontation with Galaxia, it's amazing to see that the most powerful people in their universe are women... and that's it. There's no special speech about what it means to be a woman or a magical girl. They're characters fighting for the sake of their own causes.

It's for this reason that I don't really like the lyrics of Moon Pride, since it only says to be a certain way. I feel like the best part of Sailor Moon are when the characters act as strong women without having the need to say that they're strong women. It's just expected of them.

___________________________



Back to top Go down
http://ourinkedobsession.com
Neon Genesis
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-07-14

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 2:05 pm

@JupiterThunderCrash wrote:


I just think that Sailor Moon liking Tuxedo Mask shouldn't automatically be considered a weakness or detriment to her. It's okay to care about your loved ones ^^. And as you said above, he saves her, but she often saves him when he's been kidnapped or brainwashed. They protect each other when things get really bad. And at the end of the day, she's still stronger than him in terms of raw power, and that's also something you don't often see.
It's not just that Sailor Moon likes Tuxedo Mask that bothers me about how its portrayed at times.  I actually quite love Usagi and Mamoru as a couple and I love the Miracle Romance but it seems like whenever Usagi is separated from Mamoru, she becomes very emotionally distraught.  Like in Sailor Stars, Usagi pretends to be happy around her friends even though she's very upset and worried about the lack of contact from Mamoru when she thinks he's in America and for most of this time, she doesn't confide in her friends at all until she eventually breaks down in front of everyone when she's reminded of him by Seiya.  In the first season of the original anime, after
Spoiler:
 
, Usagi is depressed for days and having traumatic nightmares even though in the original anime, Usagi barely knew anything about Mamoru at all and only started to have feelings for him in that episode.  The manga is a huge improvement over this but even in the original storyline, you have that whole thing of
Spoiler:
 
.   I think part of it is that the original anime was mostly written and produced by a mostly male staff and so it sort of portrays the Miracle Romance from a male perspective for a broad mainstream audience whereas the manga is from Naoko's perspective for a female audience.  I remember back in the old Tokyopop translation of the manga, they had those side notes from Naoko and she said in them that she thought the biggest difference between the anime and the manga was the anime was made by men and the manga was mostly made by women for a female readership.
Back to top Go down
JupiterThunderCrash
Roleplaying Moderator


Roleplaying Moderator

Title : Scorpio Starsign
Posts : 4379
Join date : 2014-01-16
Age : 20
Location : Dallas, Texas


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 2:25 pm

For that first argument, I don't see what's inherently wrong about her worrying over Mamoru like that. If he said he was going to contact her, and then he doesn't for a long time, that would be worrisome for anyone. And considering how many times he's been hurt previously, no wonder she's panicked. Usagi could simply be thinking she's overly paranoid, causing her to hide her feelings to appear alright to everyone else. She doesn't want to worry them over what could possibly be nothing. It's less that he's gone and more that he's gone and she has no idea what happened to him.

And don't forget that right before Tuxedo Mask is taken by the Dark Kingdom, Usagi remembers her past life with him. She's traumatized over losing him literally twice, combined with whatever emotions she had at the end of the Silver Millennium. She's partially grieving over Endymion along with his present self, I think.

And about the manga's suicide scene, I don't necessarily think she was correct there, nor did I think the manga framed it as a good action to take either (the locket protects her from the blow, as if saying that there's another way out this). I think that it's showing that even though Usagi has grown up some since she was Serenity, she has a long way to go to become the best person she could be. Compare that scene to Usagi's behavior in the next few arcs, for example. She makes greater and greater decisions each "finale". Basically, I think it might have been setting up for her character development. But that's just my interpretation of that scene.

I DO agree that the anime begin male produced had an effect on the messages it had though. All those questionable camera angles, for example... XD

___________________________




 Avatar by Neo-Queen Serenity
Back to top Go down
http://scorpio-rat.tumblr.com/
Neon Genesis
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-07-14

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 3:10 pm

But then Usagi didn't have any problems with talking to the Inners about
Spoiler:
 
so it just seems odd to me that she doesn't talk to them about it at all in Stars.  I could understand the thing about her being traumatized by the past events but then the other girls had also just got back their memories and they aren't nearly as traumatized by the events as Usagi was.  This was one of those scenes I felt like PGSM improved a lot on.  In PGSM, they changed it so that the Soldiers are all equally shocked by finding out about their pasts and they made it happen before Usagi fell in love so it's more clear she's traumatized by the past lives.   I felt like PGSM in general had the most positive portrayal of women out of all the versions.  For one thing, it's one of the few versions of Sailor Moon where Mamoru doesn't kiss Usagi while she's asleep and they develop their relationship independent of their past lives.  And I agree Naoko probably wasn't trying to say the suicide was a good thing.  Most likely she was probably inspired by Romeo and Juliet and other star crossed lovers tales when she made that scene but at the same time, it comes across as a bit like she's romanticisizing suicide.  And I agree about the thing with the camera angles, especially with how sometimes in the fight scenes, there'd be those awkward moments where their skirts fly up when they're in the middle of a fight for no reason.
Back to top Go down
Solipsi Rai
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : (GC's Official) Makoto/Jupiter - primadonna's husband
Posts : 1528
Join date : 2013-02-21
Age : 36
Location : Palm Springs area Cal USA


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 3:51 pm

I oppose sexism as much I dislike racism, homophobia, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, ageism, ableism...you get the idea. Cartoons for decades exhibited stereotypes and caricatures of what the writers or creators thought about other people. In 1930s and 40s toons, when a large or fat character appears, you hear the trumpet sound trying to make it appear "funny", today we call this body-shaming or fat-shaming, and we know it sends a negative hurtful message about being large or overweight. What I like about anime's role to represent women: beautiful yes, but they're depicted mostly in a positive manner, not ditzy in most cases, and are trained warriors or heroic "magical girls".

Sailor Moon was created for the manga, which has a large female audience, and I feel the anime too was meant to display strong (will and mind) female characters who don't always "need a man" to defend them from attack. Usagi seems to have crying fits and lost the ability to fight back, which to me is based on the "damsel in distress" stereotype still prevalent in movies, TV shows, cartoons and video games. Maybe this is done for comic relief, but I'm like "oh great, Usagi is portrayed like she can't defend herself, because she's this sweet, innocent, petite, blonde in need of some man's help." At least, Usagi/Moon gets over her fears and finds ways (i.e. her tiara-disc attack) to defeat the bad guy.

Naoko Takeuchi does what she likes and wants to put down her ideas or thoughts in manga and her artwork crossed over in anime, she agreed to this and expects the anime producers to represent her trademark/copyright characters in a way she's comfortable with. I'm aware the mostly male staff to produced the anime would view the sailor senshi differently from Naoko. I don't believe "strong, heroic and independent" female anime or cartoon characters should be overly sexualized or hyper-feminine, because that's stereotypical, detrimental to girls viewing the show and can come off as offensive to feminists concerned on the portrayal and representation of women in pop culture media.

___________________________

    SAILOR JUPITER is my fave Senshi!     

If there is will, there is a way, there is want to make the world a better place.

The triumph of intelligence over ignorance - The Phil Hendrie radio comedy show
Back to top Go down
SayakaSakura
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Puella Magi|Alicorn Princess (also Demande's official fangirl <3)
Posts : 3156
Join date : 2014-09-12
Age : 15
Location : Labyrinth of Oktavia von Seckendorff


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 4:42 pm

If Sailor Moon was feminist, Haruka would be the main character, Kunzite would be leader of the Dark Kingdom, all of the villains would be men and Mamoru wouldn't get the time of day from Usagi.

Bottom line: Sailor Moon is not feminist 

___________________________

 
                           Signatures made by Artemis,mangaka-chan,Radicaledward124,Marianne, Lust,,Plex-ly and other GC Members
                                                                             Formerly SailorKittyElyon
Back to top Go down
http://caramelstarstriker.tumblr.com/ http://sailorcerise.deviantart.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_llIfTH6pgwTxd68vKRzPw
The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
JupiterThunderCrash
Roleplaying Moderator


Roleplaying Moderator

Title : Scorpio Starsign
Posts : 4379
Join date : 2014-01-16
Age : 20
Location : Dallas, Texas


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 4:55 pm

@ Neon Genesis: I thought Usagi talked about that because he very clearly wanted to break up with her for his own reasons. There was no what ifs there, so telling them wouldn't make her look paranoid or anything. She had no reason NOT to tell there. In Stars, she's trying to become an independent highs school student, and might not want to be seen as "immature" by her friends for worrying about Mamoru 24/7. She's been in a relationship with Mamoru for a few arcs, so she's trying to trust him and believe he will eventually write a letter back.  She was ultimately wrong about that, but that was her train of thought. And also in the Manga version of Stars, Usagi actually didn't remember what happened to Mamoru at all (her mind blocked it out to try to avoid the emotional trauma), so she had nothing but a bad feeling to make decisions off of.

And for why the inner senshi weren't as heavily affected by Mamoru's kidnapping: They didn't love Endymion like Serenity did.  At the end of the day, their first priority is Usagi, not Mamoru. Their past lives didn't suddenly attach them to him like hers did. You could say that their deaths in the past could have still haunted them (heck, the thought of the senshi being forced to deal with a few PTSD symptoms would have been interesting to see), but that has nothing to do with Usagi's problem. They could have pushed their own problems aside for the sake of supporting their princess. 

Not to mention that Venus in particular had more time to adjust to her memories, and after Serenity, she would have had the worst trauma from the Silver Millennium. She let her princess die right in front of her in the Manga, and failed to protect her as the leader of the senshi in the Anime. PGSM did explore that a little better though.

___________________________




 Avatar by Neo-Queen Serenity
Back to top Go down
http://scorpio-rat.tumblr.com/
Addelyn
Moderator


Moderator

Title : GC's Official Nephrite - On LOA
Posts : 7935
Join date : 2012-08-04
Age : 27
Location : Canada


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 4:57 pm

SailorKittyElyon wrote:
If Sailor Moon was feminist, Haruka would be the main character, Kunzite would be leader of the Dark Kingdom, all of the villains would be men and Mamoru wouldn't get the time of day from Usagi.

Bottom line: Sailor Moon is not feminist 


That has literally nothing to do with feminism. Do you actually know what feminism is?

___________________________


Waifu to EK Shitennou Fan JTC's RP Wife Married to Brit-chan apparently CURRENTLY ON LOA 
Back to top Go down
http://misswildfire.tumblr.com/
SayakaSakura
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Puella Magi|Alicorn Princess (also Demande's official fangirl <3)
Posts : 3156
Join date : 2014-09-12
Age : 15
Location : Labyrinth of Oktavia von Seckendorff


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 5:39 pm

@Addelyn wrote:
SailorKittyElyon wrote:
If Sailor Moon was feminist, Haruka would be the main character, Kunzite would be leader of the Dark Kingdom, all of the villains would be men and Mamoru wouldn't get the time of day from Usagi.

Bottom line: Sailor Moon is not feminist 


That has literally nothing to do with feminism. Do you actually know what feminism is?
Yeah, i do know what feminism is, and i was just saying that i don't think Sailor Moon is feminist. Is that wrong?

___________________________

 
                           Signatures made by Artemis,mangaka-chan,Radicaledward124,Marianne, Lust,,Plex-ly and other GC Members
                                                                             Formerly SailorKittyElyon
Back to top Go down
http://caramelstarstriker.tumblr.com/ http://sailorcerise.deviantart.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_llIfTH6pgwTxd68vKRzPw
The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
JupiterThunderCrash
Roleplaying Moderator


Roleplaying Moderator

Title : Scorpio Starsign
Posts : 4379
Join date : 2014-01-16
Age : 20
Location : Dallas, Texas


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 5:46 pm

You seem to be using way a way more radical definition of what feminism is than I think we;re using for this discussion. 

Feminisn in general is about the equalizing of female opprotunities and rights, not simply being better than men, or being less traditionally feminine. It means that women are not held to a certain standard they must follow to not be looked down upon by society. Basically, it's about having the freedom to choose what they want to act like or do.

___________________________




 Avatar by Neo-Queen Serenity
Back to top Go down
http://scorpio-rat.tumblr.com/
SayakaSakura
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Puella Magi|Alicorn Princess (also Demande's official fangirl <3)
Posts : 3156
Join date : 2014-09-12
Age : 15
Location : Labyrinth of Oktavia von Seckendorff


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 5:48 pm

@JupiterThunderCrash wrote:
You seem to be using way a way more radical definition of what feminism is than I think we;re using for this discussion. 

Feminisn in general is about the equalizing of female opprotunities and rights, not simply being better than men, or being less traditionally feminine. It means that women are not held to a certain standard they must follow to not be looked down upon by society. Basically, it's about having the freedom to choose what they want to act like or do.
While i am using a more radical definition of Feminism, you can't really blame me for hating the movement.Yes i know it's supposed be about gender equality but the amount of radicals has perverted the movement and turned it into some kind of cult. They find everything offensive and are super hypocritical.They fail to recognise that rape is not a gendered issue and that the so called "wage gap" doesn't even exist. Also feminists tend to act like all women are oppressed which no, we aren't, at least not in America or any other first world country.


They also tend to spread around bogus statistics, the favourite one being "1 in 5 women will be raped". 
 
And if you are a woman who dares say anything critical about feminism, well you have then "internalized misogyny" and don't know any better. Somehow being a woman automatically ties you to a particular movement 
Besides, if Feminists really stood for gender equality, then why pick a name that is gender bias?


My point is Feminism isn't needed anymore in the first world, and i have no flipping idea why it's still around. I guess people LOVE to be "oppressed" (which is why there are so many fake sexuality's around nowadays)

___________________________

 
                           Signatures made by Artemis,mangaka-chan,Radicaledward124,Marianne, Lust,,Plex-ly and other GC Members
                                                                             Formerly SailorKittyElyon


Last edited by SayakaSakura on 23rd October 2015, 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://caramelstarstriker.tumblr.com/ http://sailorcerise.deviantart.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_llIfTH6pgwTxd68vKRzPw
The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
Addelyn
Moderator


Moderator

Title : GC's Official Nephrite - On LOA
Posts : 7935
Join date : 2012-08-04
Age : 27
Location : Canada


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 5:52 pm

Alright, so apparently we need a definition of what feminism actually is. I know there's a lot of misconception out there as to what feminism truly is because there are many different feminist schools. 

At its heart though: 

Cambridge Dictionary online wrote:
 the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state.

Another Definition from Wikipedia wrote:
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

Essentially, Feminism is about equality between men and women. 

Do you believe any of the following?


  • Believe that men and women should get paid the same for the same position if they have the exact same qualifications?
  • Believe that men and women should have the same rights and protections under the law? 
  • Men should be able to take a paternity leave to help raise children



If you believe in any of these things then CONGRATULATIONS, YOU ARE A FEMINIST!

Feminism is NOT:


  • Hating men
  • Believing women are better than men
  • Believing that traditional gender roles are bad (its ok to be a feminist and still want to be a stay at home mommy too!) 
  • Feminists are not only women. Men can be feminists to, they just need to want equality between the genders to be considered one. 

___________________________


Waifu to EK Shitennou Fan JTC's RP Wife Married to Brit-chan apparently CURRENTLY ON LOA 
Back to top Go down
http://misswildfire.tumblr.com/
Addelyn
Moderator


Moderator

Title : GC's Official Nephrite - On LOA
Posts : 7935
Join date : 2012-08-04
Age : 27
Location : Canada


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 5:53 pm

SailorKittyElyon wrote:
@Addelyn wrote:
SailorKittyElyon wrote:
If Sailor Moon was feminist, Haruka would be the main character, Kunzite would be leader of the Dark Kingdom, all of the villains would be men and Mamoru wouldn't get the time of day from Usagi.

Bottom line: Sailor Moon is not feminist 


That has literally nothing to do with feminism. Do you actually know what feminism is?
Yeah, i do know what feminism is, and i was just saying that i don't think Sailor Moon is feminist. Is that wrong?

I'm not saying that saying Sailor Moon isn't feminist being right or wrong, what I'm saying is that your example of what feminism is, is wrong if you're trying to say that THAT is feminist.

___________________________


Waifu to EK Shitennou Fan JTC's RP Wife Married to Brit-chan apparently CURRENTLY ON LOA 
Back to top Go down
http://misswildfire.tumblr.com/
Solipsi Rai
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : (GC's Official) Makoto/Jupiter - primadonna's husband
Posts : 1528
Join date : 2013-02-21
Age : 36
Location : Palm Springs area Cal USA


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 6:20 pm

Addelyn, you could add feminism is about viewing women and men as equal, no "superior" or "weaker" than the other. I understand gender exists when it comes to differences in human reproduction, but what society needs to know is it's never right to discriminate against women nor deprive women their civil rights.

I'm helpful with my wife in household chores and looking after the kids in her shift, and I'm involved with my daughter as much I am with my sons. Also I have a good close relationship with my Mom, and my half-sister who taught me some feminist (or should I say egalitarian) values as a little boy or teenager.

Thank you Addelyn for clearing up on the definition of feminism and women's rights.

___________________________

    SAILOR JUPITER is my fave Senshi!     

If there is will, there is a way, there is want to make the world a better place.

The triumph of intelligence over ignorance - The Phil Hendrie radio comedy show
Back to top Go down
Addelyn
Moderator


Moderator

Title : GC's Official Nephrite - On LOA
Posts : 7935
Join date : 2012-08-04
Age : 27
Location : Canada


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   8th March 2015, 6:58 pm

Mike D boy wrote:
Addelyn, you could add feminism is about viewing women and men as equal, no "superior" or "weaker" than the other. I understand gender exists when it comes to differences in human reproduction, but what society needs to know is it's never right to discriminate against women nor deprive women their civil rights.

I'm helpful with my wife in household chores and looking after the kids in her shift, and I'm involved with my daughter as much I am with my sons. Also I have a good close relationship with my Mom, and my half-sister who taught me some feminist (or should I say egalitarian) values as a little boy or teenager.

Thank you Addelyn for clearing up on the definition of feminism and women's rights.


I just came up with a very clean concise version and gave a few examples. There's so much to feminism its not even funny Smile

___________________________


Waifu to EK Shitennou Fan JTC's RP Wife Married to Brit-chan apparently CURRENTLY ON LOA 
Back to top Go down
http://misswildfire.tumblr.com/
Neon Genesis
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-07-14

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   9th March 2015, 2:37 am

Also Tumblr is just a bad site in general regardless of feminism.  To judge feminism based on Tumblr would be like judging all anime fans based on 4Chan.
Back to top Go down
SayakaSakura
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Puella Magi|Alicorn Princess (also Demande's official fangirl <3)
Posts : 3156
Join date : 2014-09-12
Age : 15
Location : Labyrinth of Oktavia von Seckendorff


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   9th March 2015, 3:57 am

Ok , forget i said anything

___________________________

 
                           Signatures made by Artemis,mangaka-chan,Radicaledward124,Marianne, Lust,,Plex-ly and other GC Members
                                                                             Formerly SailorKittyElyon
Back to top Go down
http://caramelstarstriker.tumblr.com/ http://sailorcerise.deviantart.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_llIfTH6pgwTxd68vKRzPw
The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
Princess Makoto
Lotus Crystal


Lotus Crystal

Title : GC official Lurker
Posts : 1334
Join date : 2011-09-30
Age : 29
Location : Southern Louisiana


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   9th March 2015, 2:32 pm

There are many different levels of feminism. Most people are only exposed to the hard core and outrageous side of it. Like many other things as well.

I think SM is on the 'Girl Power' side of feminism without the extremes some women display. They love men and are still dainty, yet they teach the empowerment of women through friendship and love.

This is a good debate, please no one get offended. We all just have different levels of understanding of what feminism we are talking about.

___________________________

Avatar by Sailor Mars
Back to top Go down
http://hootiemcmints.tumblr.com/
Fire
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Teo. The official GC Haruka >:)
Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-09-07
Age : 26
Location : Romania


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   9th March 2015, 2:44 pm

As I said in another topic on here, I refuse to call myself a "feminist" because I far prefer the word "egalitarian" - both because of the negative connotations that mainstream media have created for "feminism" (yes, including Tumblr - you may feel that it's silly to be influenced by one site but really, when you've seen so much... *stuff*, it's hard to ignore it) and because I prefer a neutral-sounding term for a neutral sounding attitude. I understand why it's called that, I understand the history and what the ideas are, but I feel like "egalitarianism" works better in today's world. 

That being said, the Sailor Moon franchise has strengths and weaknesses regarding this topic BUT back in the 90s it really helped in showing that girls can be both feminine and strong at the same time. Usagi, especially, I feel is a wonderful role-model. Sure she's awful in school and a bit of a clutz but she's innocent, kind-hearted, girly, loving... and super strong. There is this cliche of the beautiful helpless princess that needs to be saved, and Usagi takes that trope and bashes it against a concrete wall of "I don't think so". And then there's also the other girls, with each having a very interesting and complex personality and again, I think that's very important. Even now, in 2015, female characters tend to be VERY stereotypical (you know that scene with "the b***, the mother, the s***, the virgin"? yeah - like that!). With SM you get to look at all of this diverse cast of characters (tom-boy-ish, girly, smart, not very smart, talented, untalented, rich, not so rich, calm, loud, balanced, etc etc etc) and since we all have a tendency to pick our faves, the result is that at the end of the show we don't just empathize with the "tom-boy" - that tomboy can also cook, skate, loves roses and flowers... and she can throw a mean punch! Again: the female characters are 3-dimensional. Go SM!

Sadly though, most of the strengths were a big thing back in the 90s, but today they're not as effective. There's more variation in fiction and we like to over-complicate things, socially speaking. The "romance" angle in Sailor Moon is very "classical" by today's standards. Typical shoujo manga stuff. Which is why I don't see SM or SMC having any shot at affecting future generations the way it did us. Back in the 90s we could watch a classical romance with a straight face - today we either go "ugh" or we scream "bloody murder" because a dude kissed a tipsy girl in a shoujo romance. But still, all in all I think SM did a very good thing for girls of the 90s, worldwide Smile

___________________________

  
 My fanart can be purchased as prints, T-shirts, mugs and more in my Society6 store   
 ... ... 
Back to top Go down
http://society6.com/teohoble http://teo-hoble.tumblr.com/ http://teo-hoble.deviantart.com/
Neon Genesis
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-07-14

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 11:52 am

@Fire wrote:
As I said in another topic on here, I refuse to call myself a "feminist" because I far prefer the word "egalitarian" - both because of the negative connotations that mainstream media have created for "feminism" (yes, including Tumblr - you may feel that it's silly to be influenced by one site but really, when you've seen so much... *stuff*, it's hard to ignore it) and because I prefer a neutral-sounding term for a neutral sounding attitude. I understand why it's called that, I understand the history and what the ideas are, but I feel like "egalitarianism" works better in today's world. 

As a gay man who supports the ideals of feminism, I tend to call myself a feminist ally.  I support the causes of feminism but since I am a man, I don't think I can ever fully understand the issues women face to be able to have the right to call myself a feminist like some of the long time women activists have been doing for decades, so I call myself a feminist ally instead.  Personally I think it's important to hold onto and fight for the feminism label as I think it's been unfairly demonized by men and the media who play the "both sides" card whenever women's issues get discussed and any other label that we come up with to describe this position of supporting equal rights will just likely end up being demonized in the future too either way.

Quote :
Sadly though, most of the strengths were a big thing back in the 90s, but today they're not as effective. There's more variation in fiction and we like to over-complicate things, socially speaking. The "romance" angle in Sailor Moon is very "classical" by today's standards. Typical shoujo manga stuff. Which is why I don't see SM or SMC having any shot at affecting future generations the way it did us
I think there's a trend in superhero fiction in general these days to prefer "dark and gritty" superhero shows and movies over more light hearted material.  Part of this is due to the hit or miss reception superhero entertainment got back in the early 90s.  Back then superheros as a film genre weren't treated as a serious art form and were treated as just mindless entertainment for kids and so you got some really lousy cheesy superhero flicks like the infamous Batman and Robin and Superman IV movies.  Then the Christopher Nolan Batman films happened and it proved that superhero stories could be told as serious works of art that could be enjoyed by adults as well as kids and so everybody wanted to get on board with the "dark and gritty" bandwagon.  This trend does seem to be slowly reversing itself with the popularity of more lighthearted comical superhero films that have been successful hits lately like Big Hero 6 and Guardians of the Galaxy. 

Quote :

Back in the 90s we could watch a classical romance with a straight face - today we either go "ugh" or we scream "bloody murder" because a dude kissed a tipsy girl in a shoujo romance. But still, all in all I think SM did a very good thing for girls of the 90s, worldwide
I think though there's been a strand of criticism of the classical romance story for a long time now.  People have always been critical since at least the mid 90s of the stereotyped portrayals of women and romance in the classic Disney princess films for example.  But recent tragedies like the horrors of the Stupenville rape case where women who have been raped are horrifically victim blamed for their own rapes because of what they were drinking or what they were wearing at the time that it happened combined with the rise of social media have made mainstream society a little more self-aware of these issues and social media has given people who haven't had a voice before before a platform to speak up about these issues.  It's like I was a big fan of The Little Mermaid as a kid and it was my favorite Disney film for years.  I still enjoy it a lot now, but rewatching it as an adult and being more self-aware of these issues, I realize the lyrics to the song "Kiss The Girl" are a bit on the creepy side if you take a harder look at what they're saying in it.
Back to top Go down
Fire
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Teo. The official GC Haruka >:)
Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-09-07
Age : 26
Location : Romania


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 1:09 pm

@Neon Genesis

I do know the points why people insist on the term "feminism" but I just can't apply it to myself personally. It doesn't feel right to me. So yup, still "egalitarian" here. Still, I obviously do support the ideals behind some of those labeling themselves "feminists" and of course I won't be opposed to them just because we don't agree on semantics. At the end of the day it's more about what's in your mind and what you'll be fighting for, especially since "feminists" themselves come with so many opposing ideas and in many different types of extremes. I'm not even talking about those who are anti-men (because nobody can deny those do exist), vs. the ones who just want equality. I'm also talking about more trivial stuff... For example in my country there was a campaign a while back, for wearing skirts and dresses. Something along the lines of "winning back femininity" or something. And there was also another camp, against girly clothes - because they "harden the stereotype of poor defenseless woman" - something like that. Anyway, both sides of the subject seem very besides the point to me, since forcing someone to wear what you want them to wear or what is "fitting" for their gender is in itself a form of oppression. But still, you see where I'm coming from with different people in the same label, doing the exact opposite things to "help" said label.

Yes, the 90s, early 2000s were a turning point from "colorful and romantic" to "dark and gritty" - even in Western animation! My favorite Disney film is "Hercules", followed by "Hunchback" and "Pocahontas". Also during that time there was "Mulan" - maybe none of them are actually "dark" per se, but they did start to take their audiences a bit more seriously, started touching some more mature themes and began to throw the romance into the background (as opposed to... "Little Mermaid", "Beauty and the Beast" and "Aladdin" where the romance was the main point of the story).

I absolutely get what you mean by the "dark and gritty" angle. Funny how Madoka would be the example of this trope happening in girls' anime as well. To be honest I loved the direction when it first started showing up. I'm personally a fan of "darkness" so it was right up my alley. For a while. Until it became such a cliche I feel like bashing my head against a concrete wall every time a new "angsty" movie of a popular franchise is announced. Superman was particularly hilarious - the guy with the red panties is suddenly Mr. Serious. But yeah, I'm definitely relieved that it's getting toned down and caricatured these days. Guardians of the Galaxy was a breath of fresh air from so many different points of view! First off for the humor. And secondly for the characters. Until I watched this movie I never realized how bothersome it was that all superheroes with movies coming out are from SOME very popular franchise, that SOME people know very much about... and whose movies are made more for THOSE people. Take The Avengers for instance. Yeah, very nice, but if you watch Avengers without watching all of the Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hulk movies before... you're missing out on a lot of stuff - including a bit chunk of the in-jokes. Guardians was more "for everybody". And while I do think Gamora is the "token woman" in the group I do think she's interesting. Cliche, stereotypical, but at least she actually has some stuff to do, as opposed to Black Widow who's sorely overpowered by the men in her group and pretty much does nothing but throw one-liners around for a whole film.

Also it's funny you mention The Little Mermaid. I also used to love that one as a kid. And then at some point I started to hate it. I think that "some point" was when I realized that Ariel had betrayed her father, her friends, sisters and kingdom, risked her life, etc, just to get a dude she happened to see for a few minutes and like. There are many Ariel defenders out there, I know that, I always have to respectfully disagree with their points. If it was a man doing what Ariel did, he would be deemed super stalkerish and creepy. But since it's a girl, it's cute and sympathetic, because hey, we all know that romance is the driving force of girls anyway. Right? Bleh. 

And I also have some issues with Beauty and the Beast, but I can't bring myself to dislike that movie no matter how against my morals it is. Basically, the guy can look like a furry bull-lion thingy and have a short temper and scare her... she'll love him anyway. But Belle? She's beautiful (most beautiful girl in town!), intelligent (most intelligent girl in town!) and brave. And the Beast has to learn to love and be loved in return? I'm pretty sure he won't have a very hard time learning to love someone who's practically perfect in every way, thank you very much. Every time I think about it, I conclude that it's Belle who learns the lesson in this film, not Beast. Which is... kinda besides the point of the curse? And then there's the moral of the story, that "what matters is on the inside" - yeah, apparently it's so, but only if you're a guy. Actually "Shrek" took my moral issues with this story and fixed them by making it so that Shrek does NOT turn into Prince Charming - instead Fiona becomes an ogre. And they still love each other. Actually this was in the early 2000s, so exactly the period we're talking about, when changes started happening. 

Oh well.

___________________________

  
 My fanart can be purchased as prints, T-shirts, mugs and more in my Society6 store   
 ... ... 
Back to top Go down
http://society6.com/teohoble http://teo-hoble.tumblr.com/ http://teo-hoble.deviantart.com/
Phantom53
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 281
Join date : 2013-07-15
Age : 26
Location : Miami


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 1:34 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
@Fire wrote:
As I said in another topic on here, I refuse to call myself a "feminist" because I far prefer the word "egalitarian" - both because of the negative connotations that mainstream media have created for "feminism" (yes, including Tumblr - you may feel that it's silly to be influenced by one site but really, when you've seen so much... *stuff*, it's hard to ignore it) and because I prefer a neutral-sounding term for a neutral sounding attitude. I understand why it's called that, I understand the history and what the ideas are, but I feel like "egalitarianism" works better in today's world. 

As a gay man who supports the ideals of feminism, I tend to call myself a feminist ally.  I support the causes of feminism but since I am a man, I don't think I can ever fully understand the issues women face to be able to have the right to call myself a feminist like some of the long time women activists have been doing for decades, so I call myself a feminist ally instead.  Personally I think it's important to hold onto and fight for the feminism label as I think it's been unfairly demonized by men and the media who play the "both sides" card whenever women's issues get discussed and any other label that we come up with to describe this position of supporting equal rights will just likely end up being demonized in the future too either way.

Quote :
Sadly though, most of the strengths were a big thing back in the 90s, but today they're not as effective. There's more variation in fiction and we like to over-complicate things, socially speaking. The "romance" angle in Sailor Moon is very "classical" by today's standards. Typical shoujo manga stuff. Which is why I don't see SM or SMC having any shot at affecting future generations the way it did us
I think there's a trend in superhero fiction in general these days to prefer "dark and gritty" superhero shows and movies over more light hearted material.  Part of this is due to the hit or miss reception superhero entertainment got back in the early 90s.  Back then superheros as a film genre weren't treated as a serious art form and were treated as just mindless entertainment for kids and so you got some really lousy cheesy superhero flicks like the infamous Batman and Robin and Superman IV movies.  Then the Christopher Nolan Batman films happened and it proved that superhero stories could be told as serious works of art that could be enjoyed by adults as well as kids and so everybody wanted to get on board with the "dark and gritty" bandwagon.  This trend does seem to be slowly reversing itself with the popularity of more lighthearted comical superhero films that have been successful hits lately like Big Hero 6 and Guardians of the Galaxy. 

Quote :

Back in the 90s we could watch a classical romance with a straight face - today we either go "ugh" or we scream "bloody murder" because a dude kissed a tipsy girl in a shoujo romance. But still, all in all I think SM did a very good thing for girls of the 90s, worldwide
I think though there's been a strand of criticism of the classical romance story for a long time now.  People have always been critical since at least the mid 90s of the stereotyped portrayals of women and romance in the classic Disney princess films for example.  But recent tragedies like the horrors of the Stupenville rape case where women who have been raped are horrifically victim blamed for their own rapes because of what they were drinking or what they were wearing at the time that it happened combined with the rise of social media have made mainstream society a little more self-aware of these issues and social media has given people who haven't had a voice before before a platform to speak up about these issues.  It's like I was a big fan of The Little Mermaid as a kid and it was my favorite Disney film for years.  I still enjoy it a lot now, but rewatching it as an adult and being more self-aware of these issues, I realize the lyrics to the song "Kiss The Girl" are a bit on the creepy side if you take a harder look at what they're saying in it.

If I may add a little bit to the discussion, I'd say that SM is feminist. It was a big deal in it's time for being new and different and we can still see the impact on the genre, in that there actually IS a genre. By now, as I understand it, a lot of the things that were new at the time SM came out are standard. Though that's not necessarily a bad thing. It means they WORKED.

And Neon, if I may veer off a bit....Batwoman HAS made a couple of animated appearances. She made a cameo appearance in Batman: The Brave and the Bold, though that was based more on the original Batwoman and not the modern one.

Also, in the time of Batman the animated series's fourth season, they made a direct to video movie called Mystery of the Batwoman which also pays tribute to the character.

As for the Disney princesses, part of it was that it was a different time. But actually, Cinderella was a really strong character. No, really. Iron will, that one. When it comes to Ariel...well, as I understand it The Little Mermaid was made in a period of transition between the style in which the older Disney movies were made and the style of the newer ones. And from what I've heard, the adaptation has...issues. But that doesn't mean they didn't try. Disney is usually great at fairytale adaptation and that doesn't mean there weren't great elements there. (and hey, they gave it a better ending than the original!) And with Snow White...well, despite the flaws you still have to give that movie a ton of respect, just for how brave Disney was in making it.
Back to top Go down
Neon Genesis
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-07-14

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 2:01 pm

Quote :
Also it's funny you mention The Little Mermaid. I also used to love that one as a kid. And then at some point I started to hate it. I think that "some point" was when I realized that Ariel had betrayed her father, her friends, sisters and kingdom, risked her life, etc, just to get a dude she happened to see for a few minutes and like. There are many Ariel defenders out there, I know that, I always have to respectfully disagree with their points. If it was a man doing what Ariel did, he would be deemed super stalkerish and creepy. But since it's a girl, it's cute and sympathetic, because hey, we all know that romance is the driving force of girls anyway. Right? Bleh.

I still enjoy The Little Mermaid myself although I recognize the problems it has but I see The Little Mermaid as an allegory for gay rights as Ariel is forbidden from having relationships with humans much in the same way LGBT people in traditional patriarchal families are forbidden from having non-traditional relationships, so it doesn't seem as selfish to me looking at the film from that angle.  I don't know if that's a message Disney intended with it but I do know that the Hans Christian Anderson, the author of the original fairytale, was bisexual and had unrequited feelings for people of the same sex, and the co-composer, Howard Ashman, was an openly gay man who had struggled with AIDs throughout his life until he eventually died from it and Disney as a corporation are big supporters of LGBT rights.  In any case, to bring this discussion back to Sailor Moon, I think one of my favorite feminist moments from the series is the Sailor Moon R movie.  I love that movie because I think it did an excellent job of portraying Usagi and Mamoru's relationship in an egalitarian way.  Like yes, Tuxedo Mask still shows up to rescue Sailor Moon from Fiore at the beginning of the movie, but he ends up being captured by Fiore.  For most of the movie, it's up to Sailor Moon and her friends to save Mamoru, and for most of the movie, the Sailor Soldiers have to rely on themselves to fight, which I enjoyed as a role reversal twist on the damsel in distress trope.  It reminds me of an interview I read before with the director, Kunihiko Ikuhara, where he said he always kept trying to kill off Tuxedo Mask but he kept coming back to life and he seemed to think of Tuxedo Mask as a bit of a pest.  He was being sarcastic at that point of the interview but it goes to show what kind of mindset Ikuhara was working with when he was working on Sailor Moon.
Back to top Go down
Fire
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Teo. The official GC Haruka >:)
Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-09-07
Age : 26
Location : Romania


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 2:42 pm

Okay I'm sorry, I'm an idiot with the quoting system on this forum. Hence... "@"s for everyone!

@Phantom53

When it comes to the classical Disney Princesses it's a bit more complicated than people like to assume. I personally dislike Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora as characters. They're boring to me. BUT at the time these movies were being made, the accent didn't fall as much on the characters in the story and their personalities and development; as it did on just retelling a classic fairytale. And on the art. I dislike the movie Snow White personally and I never watch it, but I'd have to be pretty damn stubborn to pretend like it wasn't perhaps the most important moment in animation history. And the girls themselves - even if the makers cared about characterization like they do today, the truth is that women were regarded way differently in the 30s, 40s, 50s. The fact that these girls' lives were represented by their romances reflects society at that time. And as I sometimes like to point out, there are subtle hints at the fashion of the time in their character designs, particularly Cinderalla's and Aurora's hair, Briar Rose's peasant outfit and the way her breasts are treated in angles instead of curves - true to the pinup imagery of the time, etc.

So I agree with you about the classics. Little Mermaid however is still one of their most popular movies and most little girls are crazy about Ariel. So while there is criticism for her character (coming from myself as well) I think overall it was a hit for the studio.  

@Neon Genesis

I admit I've never viewed The Little Mermaid that way and I've never heard it presented that way, but it does make sense. Interesting point, I'll keep it in mind.

And yes, I agree about Sailor Moon and I've heard rumors before of Tuxedo Kamen being disliked by the studio. However, even in their dislike for him - even though they made his 90s character slap-worthy, especially in the first season! - I think the old anime, the manga and now Crystal all show a pretty balanced relationship between him and Usagi. He does save her, yes, but she also saves him (in more heroic and dramatic ways than retrieving him from a MotD, might I add). He never shows any annoyance at the fact that the girls are all obviously stronger than him, so no macho stuff. And he doesn't try to keep his girlfriend from fighting in order "to protect her" (which is a trope that drives me nuts). Sure, there's that whole rose-throwing thing and the cheesy speeches, but his presence is overall a positive one and I think he actually helps with the egalitarian/feminist/whatever message. You know, just 'cause girls have power doesn't mean that boys can't have power as well and they can't be partners of equal footing.

As for him being the "token" guy... Oh please. That works in a medium where the main characters are always women. But in fiction it's usually the men who are heroes so the whole "token female" thing is a reality - and an annoying one. If one girls' show has a single male hero it's saying nothing bad about the show, but about those making the comments in the first place. It reminds me of that "meninist" nonsense I've seen online lately. Yes to equality, of course. But a big "no" to self-victimization for the sake of attention.

___________________________

  
 My fanart can be purchased as prints, T-shirts, mugs and more in my Society6 store   
 ... ... 
Back to top Go down
http://society6.com/teohoble http://teo-hoble.tumblr.com/ http://teo-hoble.deviantart.com/
Phantom53
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 281
Join date : 2013-07-15
Age : 26
Location : Miami


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 3:06 pm

@Fire wrote:
Okay I'm sorry, I'm an idiot with the quoting system on this forum. Hence... "@"s for everyone!

@Phantom53

When it comes to the classical Disney Princesses it's a bit more complicated than people like to assume. I personally dislike Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora as characters. They're boring to me. BUT at the time these movies were being made, the accent didn't fall as much on the characters in the story and their personalities and development; as it did on just retelling a classic fairytale. And on the art. I dislike the movie Snow White personally and I never watch it, but I'd have to be pretty damn stubborn to pretend like it wasn't perhaps the most important moment in animation history. And the girls themselves - even if the makers cared about characterization like they do today, the truth is that women were regarded way differently in the 30s, 40s, 50s. The fact that these girls' lives were represented by their romances reflects society at that time. And as I sometimes like to point out, there are subtle hints at the fashion of the time in their character designs, particularly Cinderalla's and Aurora's hair, Briar Rose's peasant outfit and the way her breasts are treated in angles instead of curves - true to the pinup imagery of the time, etc.

So I agree with you about the classics. Little Mermaid however is still one of their most popular movies and most little girls are crazy about Ariel. So while there is criticism for her character (coming from myself as well) I think overall it was a hit for the studio.  

@Neon Genesis

I admit I've never viewed The Little Mermaid that way and I've never heard it presented that way, but it does make sense. Interesting point, I'll keep it in mind.

And yes, I agree about Sailor Moon and I've heard rumors before of Tuxedo Kamen being disliked by the studio. However, even in their dislike for him - even though they made his 90s character slap-worthy, especially in the first season! - I think the old anime, the manga and now Crystal all show a pretty balanced relationship between him and Usagi. He does save her, yes, but she also saves him (in more heroic and dramatic ways than retrieving him from a MotD, might I add). He never shows any annoyance at the fact that the girls are all obviously stronger than him, so no macho stuff. And he doesn't try to keep his girlfriend from fighting in order "to protect her" (which is a trope that drives me nuts). Sure, there's that whole rose-throwing thing and the cheesy speeches, but his presence is overall a positive one and I think he actually helps with the egalitarian/feminist/whatever message. You know, just 'cause girls have power doesn't mean that boys can't have power as well and they can't be partners of equal footing.

As for him being the "token" guy... Oh please. That works in a medium where the main characters are always women. But in fiction it's usually the men who are heroes so the whole "token female" thing is a reality - and an annoying one. If one girls' show has a single male hero it's saying nothing bad about the show, but about those making the comments in the first place. It reminds me of that "meninist" nonsense I've seen online lately. Yes to equality, of course. But a big "no" to self-victimization for the sake of attention.

It's alright. Sometimes I forget how the multiquote system works too. I think you have to select multiquote for all the people you want to quote, and then press the quote button for the last person. But I could be wrong there.

About the Disney thing: While I agree personality depth wasn't at it's best with the early movies, it's not true that they had no personality, or that there aren't really subtle, brilliant things in them. Like Snow White for example. I was replacing old VHS Disney movies we have with DVD, and I actually did watch the Snow White one all the way through, and here's something I found:

The intro to the movie says Snow was made to work as a scullery maid. I'd never heard that before, and I looked it up. Scullery maids were the lowest position, working in what would today be the washroom and utility room right next to the kitchen, and which sometimes serves as backup kitchen in case of overload. They reported to the chef. It was noted that a clever scullery maid, with the aid of the chef, could learn how to cook. This explains why Snow KNOWS HOW. Because in all honesty, she shouldn't.

In the movie she says she can, and not just "well, I guess I can...". No, she lists off several things with extreme confidence. I always thought that was brilliant of Walt. Also, in light of the scullery maid thing, what she did for the dwarves wasn't really all that different.

And with Cinderella, there's a reason she was Walt's favorite. He saw himself in her. She's a really strong character who refused to give up hope in the midst of an impossible, helpless, and miserable circumstances that would normally break someone. And she's actually kinda snarky in private, even at the beginning of the movie. That's why I like her. Everyone always thinks movies like that have weak female characters, but she was as tough as they got, just in a different way.

As for Aurora, well, part of the problem is that the movie focused too much on side characters so the protagonists were sort of flat. But still, they tried to make her likable, which is very important in that story.

Actually, the whole "prince getting kidnapped by the villain and broken free by the side characters" thing was intended in Snow White, but they just didn't have the time or budget to pull it off. And to be fair, the reason the male leads weren't around much (and romance less developed) was because realistic men were the hardest things to draw.

I'm so sorry if I got off topic....
Back to top Go down
Neon Genesis
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-07-14

PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 4:24 pm

My biggest problem with those early Disney classic films is not the personalities of the princesses themselves but how they portrayed the romance in those films.  In most of those early movies, the princess would meet the prince for like five minutes, have a single conversation with him, instantly fall in love, and yet the audience is expected to believe their relationship is destined to be forever.  The prince characters in these early Disney films were fairly boring and under developed in general.  Even as a kid before I became more aware of feminist issues, I always thought the princes were just boring compared to the princess characters and her magical sidekicks.   Like in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty, they have like a five minute duet with the prince, and Cinderella shares a dance.  At least Ariel is given three days with Eric and he's given something of a personality but Ariel can't speak for any of that time and Eric seems to treat Ariel as a substitute girlfriend for his "true" love of the mystery girl that he doesn't know who saved him.   In fairness to Disney, they do seem to have become more self-aware of the unrealistic nature of those earlier princess relationships with films like Frozen with characters like Elsa outwardly proclaiming you can't marry a guy you just met.   While people often complain about remakes ruining the classics, one thing I do like about Disney updating their older films with live action remakes is that they do seem to be at least trying to make an effort to modernize the stories and fleshing out the characters, like with Maleficent and now the upcoming live action Cinderella movie which I'm really looking forward to watching.
Back to top Go down
Phantom53
Star Seed


Star Seed

Posts : 281
Join date : 2013-07-15
Age : 26
Location : Miami


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 4:33 pm

@Neon Genesis wrote:
My biggest problem with those early Disney classic films is not the personalities of the princesses themselves but how they portrayed the romance in those films.  In most of those early movies, the princess would meet the prince for like five minutes, have a single conversation with him, instantly fall in love, and yet the audience is expected to believe their relationship is destined to be forever.  The prince characters in these early Disney films were fairly boring and under developed in general.  Even as a kid before I became more aware of feminist issues, I always thought the princes were just boring compared to the princess characters and her magical sidekicks.   Like in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty, they have like a five minute duet with the prince, and Cinderella shares a dance.  At least Ariel is given three days with Eric and he's given something of a personality but Ariel can't speak for any of that time and Eric seems to treat Ariel as a substitute girlfriend for his "true" love of the mystery girl that he doesn't know who saved him.   In fairness to Disney, they do seem to have become more self-aware of the unrealistic nature of those earlier princess relationships with films like Frozen with characters like Elsa outwardly proclaiming you can't marry a guy you just met.   While people often complain about remakes ruining the classics, one thing I do like about Disney updating their older films with live action remakes is that they do seem to be at least trying to make an effort to modernize the stories and fleshing out the characters, like with Maleficent and now the upcoming live action Cinderella movie which I'm really looking forward to watching.

With the early Disney films, as I said before, that wasn't their fault. With Snow White, Walt wanted to have the prince in the movie more. He wanted the prince to get caught by the Evil Queen, have her try to force him to marry her, and then have him saved by the dwarves.

But like I said, realistic humanoid males were and possibly still are the HARDEST things to draw and animate. No joke. Snow White already pushed the boundaries of technology and pushed Disney to the very edge. I am seriously not kidding when I say making it was an act of TITANIC bravery, and it is responsible for the very existence of Disney Studios today. The Prince had to be reduced in role because they just couldn't pull it off at the time, not with everything else. Be lucky that he at least got to meet Snow BEFORE the end. Some versions of the story that is not the case.

Those animation difficulties were also why Prince Charming in Cinderella had a reduced role. And it also affected Sleeping Beauty, though they did get to carry out their original plans with the prince getting captured and all. So all in all, I understand your point, but you need to forgive them a little because it's kind of hard to ask for more, especially with Snow White.
Back to top Go down
RainbowHurricane
Pyramidal Crystal


Pyramidal Crystal

Title : Sailor of all that is RAINBOW!
Posts : 417
Join date : 2014-05-17
Age : 29
Location : New York


PostSubject: Re: [Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism   10th March 2015, 4:38 pm

I have to thank you guys for this awesome read. I love intelligent debates so yay.

I definitely agree with alot of what you guys said and agree that Sailor Moon has alot of feminism in it, especially with portrayed their main characters as strong, young, independent women who have their own identities and powers. I also enjoy Sailor Moon because it's not stereotypical and shows each woman sometimes just being who they are, whether it be young, rich, poor, etc. I see what you guys are saying also about the boy crazy stuff because for a while it bothered me and made me feel like it was taking away from their friendships and the overall story but as I got older I realized that it's just a part of a young person's life and portraying that in the show made the characters seem more genuine and real. I think with feminism I would want it to promote that I don't have to fit the mold society makes for me and that you don't have to judge my actions based on the stereotypes that are portrayed in the media about women.

My friend said to me once that everyone should call themselves a feminist because if you want equal rights for women then you are one. Makes sense to me.

And Omg I love little Mermaid but I totally see how that could be interpretative as anti feminism because she does so much for a man she barely knows...but it seems in movies back in the day people would fall in love so quickly on the big screen...love at first sight was presented alot more. I don't agree that people would find Eric creepy if he did the same as Ariel. I think if Ariel was ugly and not a princess or poor people would find it creepy and desperate. If a MAN tries to find his dream girl then he's "sweet and kind and a total find" which plays on the double standard..

I don't what my point is I guess. I'm putting some two cents in lol
Back to top Go down
 

[Debate] Sailor Moon and Feminism

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
The Galaxy Cauldron :: General Sailor Moon Discussions :: Theories, Debates and Headcanons-