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 Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen

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Momma Jupi
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PostSubject: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime28th June 2011, 7:07 pm

Since this involves both talk of the manga and the anime, I was not sure where to place this. It's not limited to either topic so it did not feel right to place it in just the Manga or Anime forum. If the Mods would like to move it though, please let me know. Smile


Ok, so this is a topic that I am really quite passionate about. I may come off as opinionated and that is because I feel firmly on the matter. However I do not think that my opinion is superior or can not be argued or anything like that. And I certainly do not hold any ill will towards anyone who disagrees with me. Smile I'd love to hear what other people think and why and all that wonderful stuff.

I'll start off by putting it bluntly: I think the anime version of Mamoru/Kamen is just horrible. I realize that a lot of the time when a manga is made into an anime that characters are tweaked, personalities either exaggerated or diminished and there are different plotlines, etc. And I think most will agree with me that in the anime, just about all the characters were changed in various ways, some more extreme than others. Maybe it is because Mamoru is the only male protagonist that he stands out to me. But really, I think what was done to him is a travesty. Those reading the manga for the first time will certainly be shocked.

As Tuxedo Kamen, he is a rather embaressing and useless figure. All he really does is enter with an incredibly corny line (that more times than not makes little sense); he has no powers, and simply throws roses and pokes people with his stick. Yet, incredibly enough, he is the most overconfident superhero of the show. It's quite sad. In comparison, his manga counterpart is quite different. One of the things that I find endearing about m.Kamen is that he knows, compared to the Senshi, that he is not very strong. He admits it quite often that he feels that he can not protect Sailor Moon, although he still wants to be by her side. These confessions make him human, relatable. Interestingly enough, he gets a power of his own and can defend the ones he loves.

Tuxedo Kamen's outfit also leaves him wide open for ridicule -- more specifically, that top hat. But Naoko Takeuchi was clever about this and usually had his hat fly off during the first few panels of his entrance. A.Kamen never does this, so he looks stupider than he already does.

Chiba Mamoru is another topic, one that makes me truly upset at the animators. In general, a.Mamoru is rather a jerk. I know people have often defended this by stating that he is a college student and Usagi is a 14-year-old crybaby, so of course she would agitate him. That is not so much the issue for me. Even when they are together he is often not very involved with her. There are moments when their love is beautifully apparent and I of course appreciate these times. But in general, Mamoru is not very connected with Usagi.

Manga Mamoru is completely different. Yes, he teases Usagi in the beginning but he falls for her very quickly. He is also the one who makes the first move, which can be seen in this page. He comes off as a strong individual, rather than his wishy-washy anime portrayal. Throughout the manga you can also see that Usagi is not simply his lover from the past but also his friend, and indeed that he and Usagi are best friends. It is a quality that strengthens their relationship. Mamoru often thinks of her and worries about her, lends Usagi comfort and never puts her down or talks badly of her to others. Like in the anime, Mamoru only tells Usagi once that he loves her -- at the very end of the series. In the anime that becomes quite a big deal -- and obviously so because his actions rarely show his affection. In the manga, it is not an issue (again, more of my opinion! ^^). There is no need for one to be upset about Mamoru's single confession because throughout the manga he proves time and time again how much does love her: actions and other words of affection leave for little doubt. (Just an interesting note, I believe Usagi as well only once tells Mamoru that she loves him, in the first season. I may be wrong, so you can correct me on that. Smile )


I realize I sound quite opinionated there! But it's something I really do feel strongly on. I hope no one thinks badly of me and I of course would like to hear your thoughts as well. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime28th June 2011, 9:41 pm

I think a lot of people share your concern on this one; including me.

When I was a kid, I was, of course, in love with the idea of Tuxedo Mask. Any little girl in the 90's probably wanted to be swept away by a her/prince in the moonlight. Then I picked the manga and for years I was just so angry. Not with Mamoru, but what they did Rei, Usagi, and OHHHH Chibiusa! It wasn't until later that I realized how bad Mamoru was.

I like to refer to Anime!Mamo as the 'Cardboard Cutout' because that's what he is. He's probably the closest to his manga self at the start of the series, when he had all the mystery and snark to make us all smile. Then he got booted to Usagi's boyfriend and he kind of...melted into the background--but even then he didn't do a good job because of his extremely colorful and ugly outfits! Seriously, Naoko gave him a good wardrobe, why couldn't they just follow that?!

From what I hear, the animation team didn't like Mamoru that much and probably didn't want to deal with him. Once Stars came along, they made their dislike clear (to me at least) when they brought Seiya in. Then again I'm biased due to the fact Stars is my least favorite of all the series.

The thing about the anime is that it revolves around children rather then teens, so it makes everything sillier and less important. Mamoru, as the only leading male and sometimes the only male, was then degraded from an actual hero to the dude in distress. To make us laugh, they made him the witless but intelligent boyfriend who made the stupid mistakes and the idiotic speeches to make Sailor Moon look badass in comparison.

That being said, I do hate it when the fans hate Mamoru without looking at his awesome manga!counterpart. It's rather unfair to him that the most popular media of Sailor Moonshines such a bad light on him. I really wish people would see him not as the cold, weak, and utter useless jerk he is in the anime but as probably one of the strongest characters in the manga--he's seen his woman fight countless enemies and he's been holding her hand the entire time.

And if anyone ever doubts his love, look at the Infinity Arc when he thinks Usagi killed herself. That 'jerk' held his future child and cried for the woman he loved when the world was crumbling all around them.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime28th June 2011, 9:55 pm

Morpheous. I am officially going to marry you. If I have to swoon and seduce you first, then gosh darn it that will be my mission here. ^^

You raised so many beautiful points that I do not know quite where to start.

I love the fact that you point out that manga!mamoru is such an incredible figure and that so many people really just see his anime jerk-self and dismiss him. That is why I spent an equal amount of time on his manga form so it would not sound like such an empty judgement. He is, in actuality, a beautiful character. He has many sides to him and he grows and develops throughout the manga.

but even then he didn't do a good job because of his extremely colorful and ugly outfits! Seriously, Naoko gave him a good wardrobe, why couldn't they just follow that?!
Oh my gosh, I was totally going to mention that but did not! Off the top of my head, I could not remember any embarrassing manga clothing. In the anime ... just out of control. In the R season he is always wearing this weird "jogging outfit" with the sleeves bunched around his shoulders. O.o Mind boggling.

What didn't the animation team like about Mamoru?

And if anyone ever doubts his love, look at the Infinity Arc when he thinks Usagi killed herself. That 'jerk' held his future child and cried for the woman he loved when the world was crumbling all around them.
I thought that was one of the most beautiful scenes. -points to my sig- The pain in his grief and what he says always grips me so tightly. It is not just that he says 'i let you die' but that he says 'before me' reveals that he knows that she will one day die like every one will (although i have theories against that, different topic) but that he can not live in a world without her. He would rather die first.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime28th June 2011, 10:31 pm

Then let us marry! And then we shall children raised on Sailor Moon that will shall probably force to cosplay!

The anime really disappoints me, especially the entire Supers series because they looked over the fact that Golden Crystal belongs to bloody Mamoru! That was an important plotpoint and they ignored it! Hell, it was important in Stars too! They constantly dismissed any of Mamoru upgrades (Ummm, where was his healing abilities?!) and when they brought forced him sick in bad because the 'Earth was being harmed', it only made him look bad. (Note: I'm not hating on the anime team, but I can't help but get upset with them at some points)

I make my point by this:
Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen 061

Versus this:
Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen 016
...Animation Team; you disappoint me on a number of levels.

There's an interview that explains, but from what I can gathered the animation team was mostly male and didn't like the way Mamoru was handled. They also wanted to focus more on the girls due to the ever growing male percentage. Guys didn't want to see the development of the silly man in the tuxedo, they wanted the girls in the miniskirts!

I think what makes that scene of even more upsetting is that Mamoru is still dealing with that fact that Usagi has already committed suicide for him (once succeeded and the other attempted). Already we know he's been beating himself for failing to protect her in the past (Mamo, you were already DEAD, we forgive you!) but letting her die when she was out of his reach? That must have tore him apart; even worse when you think about it is him who usually 'dies' first and he realized the pain Usagi goes through. That scene is just riddled with ANGST

You brought up a point that I was thinking of asking about theory. Am I the only one who thinks that ending of Stars is bittersweet? It seems to me that Mamoru realize that in the end, Usagi will live and the rest of them won't be there with her? Isn't upsetting when you think Usagi's personality; she lives on the friends she has, she has mental breakdowns when she thinks she's alone. Being forced to forever wonder the Universe without her friends seems more like a punishment for the socialbutterfly that is Usagi then a happy ending.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime28th June 2011, 10:46 pm

Noes!!!!!!!!!!!! Pictures do not work! -weeps-

Yay! We shall marry then! It will be an epic affair. Give me some time to think up a proper and elaborate proposal for you. That other one was a bit abrupt. Wink

because they looked over the fact that Golden Crystal belongs to bloody Mamoru!
THANK YOU. And also that Usagi was the Maiden but whatever, I'll save that for another time. lol. They used that whole sickness as an EASY chance to remove him quite quickly. Which sucked cause he was gonna leave in the stars anyway. So they should have given him his rare opportunity to shine. -sigh- The manga was so much darker in the SuperS arc as well. They made it like cotton candy (for the most part) for the anime.

Yes, Mamoru's constant guilt over the pain he brings Usagi is so beautifully angsty. But that too is a quality that shows his love. Anime!mamoru never worries about those things. Even in the R movie he was never like "Sailor Moon is suffering because Fiore came for me." Mehness.

Some people say that Mamoru's line at the end there means that her body will die and her starseed will live on. I think his bittersweet expressions shows that she will instead, literally live on and he knows this. He knows how much it pains her to live on her own and she will have to bear this curse once everyone is gone. Gyah, I hate depressing endings like that. I kind of always skip that line and just look at the image. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime28th June 2011, 11:19 pm

NOOOOOO! CURSE YOU PICTURES~!! It was just the ugly outfit in S in which Usagi slaps Mamoru for forgetting her birthday and I laugh and the outfit from the start of the Supers manga.

Sweet! I will wait with baited breath!

Poor Mamoru. We know you're badass; we've seen what you did to those twins back in the R arc. The anime was always too sugar-coated for its own good. Sure the character development was good, but half the time it was focused on filler characters rather then the main cast. While I appreciate the fact they gave us an insight on the Amazon tiro and that one random writer, I never saw it as necessary to the anime. The way they treated villains some times never sat well with me either. I really wished they would have brought evil!Mamoru back in the Stars arc. They were already trying to make him look bad with Seiya in the addition, they could have gone extra the leap and give us something to cling onto!

Anime!Mamoru clings to the stereotype of 'Anime Male! I have no weak feelings such as those and I hurt you because I care about you! CARE' The R movie was the closest we got to good 'old Mamoru though considering Naoko wrote it. I'll take that considering it was as good as it got.

Even if her body does die and the starseed lives on, it still seems bitter sweet because Usagi will always be the same no matter what body she has. She'll remember him, her friends, and her daughter, but will have no one who can understand to share it with. Maybe the Moon legacy will live on, but it won't the same. They will no longer be the same people she knew and it hurts a little when I think about a lonely Usagi floating around in the middle of space. I like to think that she found a lollop to keep everyone with her to make myself feel better.
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 11:42 am

Jumping in here.

I just have to say that I completely agree with both of your points. You know, one of the head animators of the anime actually STATED that he hated Mamoru and it really shows (I cannot find the exact source, but I've read it on countless sites around the net. Dubious, I know, but it seems pretty damn accurate to me.) Mamoru in the anime is little more than a slab of meat. In my opinion, he gets more watered down with each passing season.

I noticed with some Usagi and Seiya shippers that this is one of their main reasons for disliking Usa x Mamo. (NOTE: I'm not directing any of this towards shippers, I'm just stating my observations) Mamoru rarely shows his affection towards Usagi in the anime, while Seiya is noticeably more "passionate" in his pursuit of Usagi. Some of these shippers have not read the manga and never saw Usagi and Mamoru's equal love and devotion towards one another, which really is a shame.

Plus, in the manga, we get this:
Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen Screen10

He has his own attack and everything.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 6:58 pm

Yay! for you input, Sailor Cosmos! Very Happy I agree with you -- I think most UsagixSeiya shippers base their beliefs on the anime -- either with ignoring the manga or having read it at all. In the Stars season I too could easily become a Seiya fan because he is imploringly beautiful in his emotions for Usagi. In a way, he almost reminds me of some of the characteristics manga!Mamoru would have had if he had been adequately portrayed in the anime. That raw open honesty of emotions -- often seen in the manga. So I can actually 100% side with those shippers, because anime!Mamoru makes me so angry and Usagi deserves so much much.

However. Anime!Mamoru is a "slab of meat," as you stated, a carbon copy of the idealized man who shows no vulnerability. I don't think it is fair to make Usagi paired with Seiya simply on that basis alone. Meh.

And I love that you included that manga scan! That was what I was talking about. It's a beautiful scene and makes so much sense with him having the golden crystal inside him. Smile

Quote :
I like to think that she found a lollop to keep everyone with her to make myself feel better.
To be honest, Katharine, I can see that as easily being canon. Usagi loves her friends and Mamoru more than anything -- without them, she can not live (and I do not think that makes her weak either. I think it portrays the purity of her soul and feelings). Anyway, she possesses the silver crystal, a truly magnificent source of power that has countless abilities: curing peoples' physical and mental bodies, restorying entire populations, bringing the Earth back to life, sealing away peoples' souls so that they might be reborn -- it really has no limit. Why wouldn't she be able to, as a queen herself who has had centuries to further her power and strength, keep her loved ones alive forever?

I do not see how anyone could ever die as long as Usagi is alive.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 7:26 pm

Seiya and Usagi's anime relationship always reminded me of her relationship with Mamoru in the Classics, only Seiya was much more open and ready to handle Usagi's hyper side. At first it was refreshing to see that, because Mamoru was so distant and bland by the time he left, however half way through Stars I started to feel like they were shoving Seiya down my throat. I felt like I was being focused to convent into a Seiya/Usagi fan despite knowing there was much much much more to Mamoru then what was shown. Personally, because of the way he/she was presented, I ended up being turned off to Seiya. I want Usagi to be treated like she should be, but I don't think throwing in a love triangle that shouldn't have existed was the way to go.

That and the fact that I am partly a Seiya/Kakyuu buuut let's not get into that. We be talking 'bout Mamo-chan here.

I really don't see why they didn't add that attack, Cosmos. I already stated that they were trying to make him silly, but how did they get ROSES out of an attack that blasts the enemy and hides them in smoke. How does that add up?!

To tell you the truth, I don't know why that wouldn't happen. It would probably be the first thing Usagi does when she realizes she's alone. Maybe their Stars have already disappeared or it might harm the Cauldron by doing so. I have no idea, but when ever I read Cosmos' dialogue, I feel like she's been alone longer then her battle with Sailor Chaos and maybe that was one of the reasons why she came back to the past: so she could see all her friends again.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 7:27 pm

I'm just LOVING your analysis, Katharine and Rebecca! I've always assumed that as long as Usagi is alive, her loved ones will be, too. In the manga, it states that the inhabitants of Crystal Tokyo have lifespans of 1000 years, but I think that Usagi and her loved ones' lifespans are even longer.

And I firmly believe Sailor Cosmos is Usagi from a time countless of years in the future. I think she wanted to see her friends and family one last time, too.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 7:32 pm

And I firmly believe Sailor Cosmos is Usagi from a time countless of years in the future. I think she wanted to see her friends and family one last time, too.
Wait -- it has been stated that Cosmos isn't Sailor Moon? Doesn't she herself state that she is? Maybe I should start a separate thread on Cosmos if there isn't one already? I have questions!

And thank ya! ^^



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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 7:40 pm

Oh, I'm going to post one right now!

But there are COUNTLESS theories surrounding Cosmos. I personally think its pretty clear, but you should read some of the theories about her!

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 7:46 pm

I've assumed that Cosmos' is Usagi's future form but not her body. She was reborn and was then turned in Cosmos' many years later, but lacked Usagi's personality because she didn't go through the same thing she had. She sort of had Serenity's naivety until Sailor Chaos came along and she forced to see what her true and strongest would do.

And thank you Cosmos~ I've sent so much time trying to figure out this subject!

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime29th June 2011, 7:51 pm

Ok, forgive for not having read all of your posts (and i pretty much agree with whats said so thats why i just skimmed it) but i have to say..don't blame the animators!! These types of decisions are made by producers, directors, and writers! BLAME THE HIGHER UPS!!

sorry but unless you are a head animator or art director you have no say whats done in a show. especially how characters are written, so on and so forth.

Just my two cents! ^_^

Oh and on some of the Sailor Cosmos theories, you guys should go and read SailorFailure's tumblr posts about Cosmo (they are a while back so you might have to dig them up) but she makes some good points about how Cosmos isn't Usagi and is more of a future reincarnation of Sailor Moon. Kind of like how Usagi isn't exactly Princess Serenity but her reincarnation, but i don't remember some of the details. I should go and look it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime30th June 2011, 5:54 pm

Oh god, I just had a giant post about my love for Anime!Mamoru and I completely lost it because the system randomly decided to log me out :C I'll try it again later when I'm not still in lost work depression mode :C


(LOL, I wonder if that's why no one else has posted good things about anime Mamoru? They all must've been eaten by the system like mine xD)

(Nosrsly, I don't think the forum is actually conspiring against fans of anime Mamoru)
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime30th June 2011, 7:15 pm

Aw, I would have liked to see what you wrote about anime!Mamoru, Ella! I have no love for him.

Ok, I will be slightly more honest and admit that there are maybe ... three or four scenes with him that make me so insanely melty and weepy. But I think I react that way because it is NEVER seen.

Ahem. Write your next analysis on Word and then post it here, just as a back up! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime2nd July 2011, 9:31 pm

I have me some love for Anime Mamoru, although I do like his manga counterpart better. He was more developed and social in the manga than in the anime, which makes him more likeable in the manga.

But with the anime, I guess I retain love for him due to the fact that he is way more introverted and really has no one. I came up with my own little theory that initially Mamoru went to college younger than everyone else (like at 16) and is socially awkward because he's basically alone in Tokyo at a young age with no friends or family (except for Motoki). Far fetched, right?

I guess its a little personal for me too since I have friends in my own life that were total jerks and extremely harsh when I initially met them, but many suffered abuse and family issues.

As far as him breaking up with Usagi in season 2, I really don't like that, but of course Toei wants MORE DRAMA, MORE HATED, MORE OF USAGI CRYING. I'm like why are you doing this? haha. However knowing myself, I probably would tell someone awful things in order for them to get away from me and be safe, cause I'm just that stupid.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 10:57 am

ALRIGHT, GOING TO TAKE ANOTHER STAB AT THIS.

First off, I just want to mention that since Mamoru is my favorite character in the series, I love him in all his incarnations (except for Enomoto Yuuta from Shin Densetsu Kourin. But even he at least had a nice voice I guess). So really, a lot of the things you guys are saying are true... I just love anime Mamo anyway c:

And before I go into actual deeper reasons, I'm just going to point y'all toward SailorFailures' Tuxedo Mask tags. He was my favorite character from the beginning, but the content there really solidifies my love for him xD In some ways it proves some of you guys' points, but I honestly do love his personality in the anime. He's very introverted in civilian form, but in Tuxedo form he feels free to really ham it up, which I find really cute and relatable- like "Hey, no one's going to recognize me like this. TIME TO GET MY TRUE SWAG ON~" It makes me think that on the inside he's a total dork, he just keeps it inside because he's supposed to be the ~*big smart college guy*~ and he's worried about his peers taking him less seriously, or he feels the need to be the mature one around Usagi's friends. This is getting into headcanon territory of course, but it makes perfect sense- remember how embarrassed he was when Usagi and Rei caught him on the choo choo train? Smile

Of course, the anime writers made a lot of bad decisions when writing Mamoru. I'm not going to attempt to justify them because a lot of it really is just dumb xD Like making him a college student. Seriously, what? But it does explain that lack of affection you guys keep talking about. At the beginning of the anime, she's 14 in 8th grade and he's at least 18 (but probably more like 19) and a freshman in college. Really, the only thing that makes the relationship acceptable in any way is the fact that their love is thousands of years old and destined to last forever, and I'm pretty sure Mamoru realizes this a lot more than Usagi does- hence his reluctance to show her very much affection except for the really important moments. I think that he'll get better at it as she gets older and their relationship pushes less boundaries. But of course, I wouldn't even feel the need to justify this if they'd just stuck to preexisting canon and made him two years older. Jeez. And the breakup plotline- that lasted WAY longer than it needed to and just made him look like a douche, even if he did have valid reasons.

Also, I kind of like that Mamoru is a bit more flawed in the anime. I love manga Mamoru, but he's obviously written to be the ~*perfect man*~ there, like the guys you see in disney movies and twilight and stuff. It works for what Naoko was getting at, but he loses a lot of the humor and intrigue that I feel anime Mamoru has. Again, don't get me wrong- I LOVE manga Mamoru and the way his relationship with Usagi was portrayed in the manga. It just works in a different way. In the anime, his character has realistic flaws- he's introverted, he prefers to deal with things himself and doesn't always get help when he should, and he prefers blunt honesty to courtesy. That said, while he could seem pretty cold, his bluntness was almost always well-intentioned- and when it wasn't, he was joking around or it was because he was being posessed for the third time this week, lol. Like in the photography episode in Classic- after his typical "lol usagi go home", he went into appearance isn't everything blah blah blah and then said that the model photoshoot she'd been invited to probably wasn't legit because the guy was taking pictures of just anyone instead of choosing models that appealed to him (and he was right!). Plus he made a bunch of comments about how he wants to be with a girl who fights for what she loves and believes in Smile And this is before he had memories or even knew he went out in a tuxedo at night. OF COURSE, that is all assuming you're watching the Japanese version. His english version is just a dick xD

But I do wish he'd gotten more of a legit attack in the anime. Hell, I wish he'd gotten more of a legit anything in the later seasons. He didn't even get to participate in his last few final battles :C I personally don't think La Smoking Bomber would've worked that well in the anime though, and even in the manga I found it a tad narmy. He just doesn't seem like a calling attacks guy to me (though I do love it in the musicals). He did get some randomly awesome abilities in the anime that people forget about (including the writers/animators), like that rose shield/portal in the S episode with the glass slipper (I think?). In fact, he got a lot of weirdly cool attacks in S for some reason.

LONG STORY SHORT, I LOVE ANIME MAMORU. And I will represent the minority with pride <3

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 11:22 am

I totally agree with you Ella! Smile LETS REPRESENT THE MINORITY TOGETHER! I really like anime Mamoru too. And ive always had this headcanon that Mamoru went to college early (like at 16) I mean they never said his age and it makes a lot of sense because he's smart and super introverted. But that's my own take. Haha Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 12:15 pm

Oh! I love SailorFailures' posts on Tuxedo Mask/Mamoru. As much as I hate the changes in the anime, I do like his anime counter part. Its adorkable. XD

As far as Mamoru being cold and unaffectionate in the anime, 2 things on that.

Basically what Ella said about the age difference.

AND in Japan, excessive physical contact is really unacceptable in public. I remember reading about it in a weeaboo stories post about how to act properly in Japan. Japanese are very reserved and I think they save physical affection for private moments, which I think is why when Usagi hangs all over Mamoru in the anime he gets all embarrassed and freaked out. But when they are in private, he will kiss her and stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 1:02 pm

*raises hand* I also like anime-Mamoru. I think he's adorable and he has his flaws but he's hilariously awesome and sometimes just awesome and sometimes he's just a total troll in other cases.

@Brit-chan wrote:


AND in Japan, excessive physical contact is really unacceptable in public. I remember reading about it in a weeaboo stories post about how to act properly in Japan. Japanese are very reserved and I think they save physical affection for private moments, which I think is why when Usagi hangs all over Mamoru in the anime he gets all embarrassed and freaked out. But when they are in private, he will kiss her and stuff.

That's such an interesting point, I keep wondering about that myself.
I was only in Tokyo for about a year, but I did see couples be affectionate. I mean, not like in America (where I am from). But couples (youthful couples) do hold hands, hug and kiss - in the right setting (lunchtime at the quad? yes. library? No. date? yes. supermarket? No. Odaiba ferris wheel? OH HECK YES. LOL.)
Culturally, yes *in general* they are more reserved about that but it's also a personality thing. I think Mamoru is a reserved guy - despite what you'd think when you see the jogging suit. >.>; He's sort of like Ami-chan (who can't even say the word "two-timing").

I am rewatching the series and noticed in episode 60 (JP version) Mamoru is, like, all over Usagi. It's adorable! I'm like, "how did I MISS this the first time around?" (Probably because it was years ago). But every time they run into each other he goes to kiss her. It's really cute. I think things change as the relationship progresses, just like with everything. Plus, I think once Chibi-Usa shows up Mamoru is extra conservative around Usagi, especially because Chibi-Usa is always there (at least when they are "on-camera" ha ha).

I'm sorry I'm like word-vomiting all over this post. Mamoru isn't one of my favorite characters, but I do like him. And while I do agree the anime did take some things away from his character, I think they added some things as well, just because with 200 episodes they had time to give him some funny scenes and moments they wouldn't have otherwise.

One thing the anime did I don't like was make him so much older, so I love the idea that was brought up above that he was actually younger - and went to college at a younger age.
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 1:12 pm

@enogitna wrote:

That's such an interesting point, I keep wondering about that myself.
I was only in Tokyo for about a year, but I did see couples be affectionate. I mean, not like in America (where I am from). But couples (youthful couples) do hold hands, hug and kiss - in the right setting (lunchtime at the quad? yes. library? No. date? yes. supermarket? No. Odaiba ferris wheel? OH HECK YES. LOL.)

I figured that. Its funny cause I think it was actually a video on youtube that was posted on weeaboo stories with some chick telling weeaboos how NOT to act. And to not run around and squeal and hug random people and stuff. I mean, i figured couples in public do things like hold hands and stuff. But i always was under the impression that, at least with older people, its meant to be more reserved. Btw, awesome for you being able to give actual testament from living there for a year. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 1:49 pm

No, it's totally an interesting point. I remember having to tell my then-boyfriend to hold off on the lovey-dovey stuff in public when he visited me (especially at my host family's house), so I guess it was taboo enough for me to want to be extra-careful. ? It was so long ago, I'm all trying to remember. :-/

But I did wonder about this point being used when people discuss Mamoru's character. I mean, looking at him through a Japanese perspective is definitely important seeing as how it's a Japanese show written by Japanese people for a Japanese audience, in Japan. But all the other characters are Japanese, too! Including Usagi. And including, ya know, Minako, for example. Wink

But again, a lot of the people who wish for more romance from the show (which to be fair, does have this whole sub-premise of a "miracle romance" of epic Princess Bride proportions - death cannot stop true love and all that) are coming at it from a non-Japanese perspective and are like, "wth Mamoru?"
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 3:55 pm

@enogitna wrote:
But I did wonder about this point being used when people discuss Mamoru's character. I mean, looking at him through a Japanese perspective is definitely important seeing as how it's a Japanese show written by Japanese people for a Japanese audience, in Japan. But all the other characters are Japanese, too! Including Usagi. And including, ya know, Minako, for example. Wink

I think, then when you put it those terms, it goes on not only ages but level of maturity. I'm not saying "Oh Usagi and Minako are SUPER BOY CRAZY IDIOTS!" Not at all, but when it comes to Mamoru, and even Haruka and Michiru, and Motoki and his girlfriend, Reika. I believe since they are a little more mature and less bubbly that they have a tough time showing affection in public, along with the fact that they're Japanese.

Also, I remember that episode with Usagi and Motoki's sister, Unazuki. She guessed that Usagi had never kissed Mamoru because its SUCH a big step, which really shows that being slow with relationships is highly looked upon in Japan, instead of our American mentality of "YAY FIRST KISS" like at 10. HAHA Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 3:58 pm

@enogitna wrote:
One thing the anime did I don't like was make him so much older, so I love the idea that was brought up above that he was actually younger - and went to college at a younger age.

Oh and thank you enogitna! I brought up that idea earlier. I don't know, I mean its been my headcanon for like 13 years now so that I've basically believed it! I think I've come up a whole backstory for Mamoru after his parents' died.

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 4:09 pm

@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
@enogitna wrote:
But I did wonder about this point being used when people discuss Mamoru's character. I mean, looking at him through a Japanese perspective is definitely important seeing as how it's a Japanese show written by Japanese people for a Japanese audience, in Japan. But all the other characters are Japanese, too! Including Usagi. And including, ya know, Minako, for example. Wink

I think, then when you put it those terms, it goes on not only ages but level of maturity.

Yes! Exactly. It's really his character, too.

And I did like your head canon about him being younger, but mature for his age. Smile He and Usagi balance each other out very well, imo.
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 4:41 pm

I'm so glad to see so many mini essays here! Especially for anime!Mamoru, because it is good for him to have a few advocates there (although I totally still dislike him. XD).

Quote :
Also, I kind of like that Mamoru is a bit more flawed in the anime. I love manga Mamoru, but he's obviously written to be the ~*perfect man*~ there, like the guys you see in disney movies and twilight and stuff.
I can understand your thoughts there but I have to disagree with manga!Mamoru being the "perfect man." I actually hate that character created so often by Disney -- which is one of the reasons I hate Disney so much. Razz Mamoru is certainly more flawed in the anime but I do not think in a way that makes him relatable or more "human." I understand that people say that he may have grown up introverted and such, because of his parents and being alone and not knowing who he is. But I personally never got that feeling from him. I think the biggest reason why his "flaws" do not make him relatable (to me) is because the writers did not put very much effort into showing him as a character with depth.

Also, on the topic of him being affectionate in public and how that relates to Japanese culture -- it is untrue. I of course can not generalize the entire Japanese culture but I have been to Japan and the youth are not like that. I think those ideals may be held by the older generation but younger folk have no issues holding hands and hugging in public. They are not seen making out but it is not as unacceptable as I think a lot of people believe.

But that is not so much of an issue for me, because Mamoru is somewhat affectionate to Usagi in the anime, I will give him that. He will put his arm around her when they walk and let her hold onto his arm and such. In the beginning of the Black Moon arc he is really affectionate with her as well (as affectionate as anime!Mamoru can get, at least.) As Enogitna stated, in episode 60, when he and Usagi bump into each other, he says something very sweet to her.

Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen Tumblr_lna12wF8AZ1qzoc48o1_500
I totally "aw'd" all over that. So yes, he does have his rare moments and I do appreciate that.

I'm not going to bash anime!Mamoru anymore because I think I've already said enough on that (and I do love you guys. ^^). But I do feel that manga!Mamoru also has his share of "imperfections" that makes him such a beautiful character and not the stereotypical Disney man. As I had stated above, Mamoru often doubts himself in comparison to Usagi. When Usagi approaches him in volume 2 he slightly ignores her at first out of guilt at not being able to save her as Sailor Moon during their previous battle.
Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen 2edz79sChiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen Vcugys

But what I appreciate about his character is how that after this scene he confesses how he feels regardless. This quality of his makes him dependable and strong regardless of his insecurities.

I don't know why but I love this vulnerable side of Mamoru so much. I think it is such a beautiful trait and I love every time that it occurs. :X But Mamoru also has a comical side to him. It is not as extreme as in the anime because in all honesty, the manga is a bit more serious. But he has his share of adorable expressions, especially when it comes with Chibi-Usa. It's kind of cute to see it -- because I look at him as this slightly more serious character. But in actuality, he must have some bit of lightheartedness to be with Usagi.
Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen 2pzbuia Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen 2a5m3qw


Really, what it boils down to for me is not so much whether anime!Mamoru is a sucky character of manga!Mamoru is so grand. It's the comparison of the two -- it's the nature of how Mamoru was originally portrayed and the way his character was thwarted and changed to suit the wishes of the animators and writers. I know people say that you can not compare manga to anime but I do. I can't help it. Mamoru from the manga was a beautifully written character with many dimensions and when he hit the tv screen all of that was stripped away to create a new character. Anime!Mamoru does have his moments, some of them quite endearing, so no, I do not think he is a total beast. I understand both sides. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 5:46 pm

@whitemoonfamily- I love that headcanon c: It fits really well with my theory too, since going to college early would give him even more of a reason to want to keep up a mature image for his peers.

@ The discussion about showing affection in Japan- I never thought of that! I knew Japan had different etiquette than we do considering PDA, but for some reason I never considered that in the context of Sailor Moon. It makes sense that it would've changed in recent years, but those changes might not have become the norm yet in the early 90s when the anime and manga were being made.

@vomitdirt Sailor Jupiter- To be fair, Naoko has outright stated that she created Mamoru in the image of her ideal man- but I was exaggerating a little xD I'd forgotten a lot of those moments in the manga though o: I can't wait for the new English versions to come out so I can finally reread it!
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 5:51 pm

I love manga Mamoru. He's like, just... idek, I had the biggest crush on him. To me, he's almost perfect.
I just felt the need to defend anime!Mamoru for a minute. But yeah, IA. All the characters in the anime are... different. They were changed from the manga. I used to be 100% of the mindset that the manga is always better! but now I think I may feel a bit differently. I feel like there are some things nice about the anime - about having more room to expand on the characters. Although they didn't do it the way Naoko wanted. Or even the way I agree with. Or even a way that was FAIR (in the case of Mamoru, the rumor is that the director of the anime didn't like him and changed his character, right?).
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PostSubject: Re: Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen   Chiba Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 9:26 pm

I really don't see Mamoru in the anime as all that different from Mamoru in the manga. Sure, he's a little less mature in the anime, and he gets a lot more development in the manga, but that's the case for most of the characters. I think Minako and Rei were hit much harder.

As someone earlier said, PDA's were slower to catch on in Japan, and it's been almost 20 years since Sailor Moon started. Mamoru is also a classic A-type: cautious, careful, and reserved. Usagi is an O-type, and is more romantic, although that certainly doesn't mean they're not compatible.

I would disagree with Mamoru being a "dude in distress," too. He has to help out Sailor Moon in almost every episode. And even if he did have to rescued all the time, I wouldn't mind, since it's a change of pace from the usual knight in shining armor rescuing the princess.

When I was younger, I thought Mamoru was kind of boring, but the older I get, the more I realize what a great boyfriend he is. That's not to say I'm not biased; I tend to be attracted to intelligent, mature men like him. I'm 25, and he still seems like "an older man" to me.
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