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east02west
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PostSubject: Haruka and Michiru's relationship among other things.   10th January 2016, 6:18 pm

This may sound a bit controversial and perhaps is a minority position, but in having read the manga, I never quite came away with the idea that Haruka and Michiru were actually lovers. 

Sure Haruka was a bit more masculine, but I always read her choice of clothing and personality differently. 

Perhaps the translations into English left out key details, but from the Infinity to Stars arcs where they play a role in the story, I never quite saw them in that light.

In the age of Silver Millennium, Haruka and Michiru would have really only had one another to depend on. The role and place of Setsuna isn't quite settled in that regard. How was she be on Chiron castle AND the Door of Time? We never quite get an answer to that. Sure the Gate of Time could have been on Chiron castle, but how could she defend the Solar System from outside attacks if she was bound to her post at the Door of Time?

Another thing which isn't quite answered, is just how old the senshi are in relation to one another at the time of Silver Millennium. In the Dreams Arc we're introduced to Chaos Nehelenia (Awkward... pre-Metallia Chaos attack on Silver Millenium) and the juvenile Inner Guard of the infant Usagi. Are they meant to be older than Usagi in Silver Millenium? Would the Outers have been older than the Inner Senshi? We don't quite get much about their home planets and their inhabitants. Why are Phobos and Deimos even reborn into the future when they don't have Sailor Crystals?


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PostSubject: Re: Haruka and Michiru's relationship among other things.   10th January 2016, 7:57 pm

Before I jump into this, may I request you change your thread title? Cause you are asking about way more than just Haruka and Michiru. xD

With that said, I'm going to try to answer someof these questions as best as possible. Just take many of the things I suggest with a grain of salt as most of these answers will be my personal thoughts as a lot of it isn't covered in the canon.


@east02west wrote:
This may sound a bit controversial and perhaps is a minority position, but in having read the manga, I never quite came away with the idea that Haruka and Michiru were actually lovers. 

Sure Haruka was a bit more masculine, but I always read her choice of clothing and personality differently. 

Perhaps the translations into English left out key details, but from the Infinity to Stars arcs where they play a role in the story, I never quite saw them in that light.

Well from what I remember, you are correct in the aspect that it is never specifically said within the story of the manga itself. Except in the beginning of the Infinity Arc, where you hear the people talking about Haruka and Michiru. They state that they are dating there, but it isn't ever mentioned again as far as I know. However, besides that, it is heavily implied. And with other versions of SM confirming it (using manga as its source material) then I think its safe to say they are a couple in manga canon.

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In the age of Silver Millennium, Haruka and Michiru would have really only had one another to depend on.
Actually, with the way they are stationed, its quite possible they never met each other in the past either. There is no evidence in any version that Neptune and Uranus have any sort of relationship in the past.
Quote :


The role and place of Setsuna isn't quite settled in that regard. How was she be on Chiron castle AND the Door of Time? We never quite get an answer to that. Sure the Gate of Time could have been on Chiron castle, but how could she defend the Solar System from outside attacks if she was bound to her post at the Door of Time?

This is one of those many issues of the manga that make me wonder why so many fans think it is the best thing ever lol. At this point is where fantheory comes in. Personally, the Door of Time was probably connected to Chrion castle, but after Saturn dropped her glaive in the past, it destroyed the castle and any access to it from that dimension. Thus, once Pluto was report again (which probably had to happen immediately considering her position and how she didn't get a human body until after the Black Moon arc thanks to NQS), she was stuck at the Door in the dimension that we see her in and thus why she is considered to be very old at that point and wise as she had seen all of history from the end of the Silver Millennium to the time where the events of SM take place.

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Another thing which isn't quite answered, is just how old the senshi are in relation to one another at the time of Silver Millennium. In the Dreams Arc we're introduced to Chaos Nehelenia (Awkward... pre-Metallia Chaos attack on Silver Millenium) and the juvenile Inner Guard of the infant Usagi. Are they meant to be older than Usagi in Silver Millenium? Would the Outers have been older than the Inner Senshi? We don't quite get much about their home planets and their inhabitants. Why are Phobos and Deimos even reborn into the future when they don't have Sailor Crystals?

All of these here can just be answered with fan theory. With the way its shown in the manga, the Inners during the Millenium are older than Princess Serenity, since it seems they were gathered prior to her birth to be trained (perhaps they were awoken from their respective planets by Queen Serenity? We have no clue though). The Outers, I believe were awoken by Queen Serenity and given their castles by Queen Serenity. She probably had the ability to see the Sailor Crystals on their planets and with her powers through the Silver Crystal, she was able to awaken them to humanoid forms (as in they didn't necessarily have a mother and father but were just sort of given life). I would think that when Queen Serenity had started her kingdom (however the heck it happened), she probably awakened the Outers before the Inners so they could have protection from them while she developed the inner planets and the Moon Kingdom.

As far as Phobos and Deimos go...well, seems they were just there for plot device for Dream Arc. hehe. However, I think the reincarnation powers Queen Serenity used went beyond just Sailor Crystals and was able to give everyone a new future. I know this was show in the anime during the Silver Millenium flashback scenes, but i think that power can extend in the manga too even if its not explicitly said. It seems Queen Serenity was quite powerful as she had the ability to go to the Cauldron itself. So I believe she has these powers as well. Just look how strong Usagi is able to become as Sailor Moon with the same silver crystal Queen Serenity used.

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PostSubject: Re: Haruka and Michiru's relationship among other things.   11th January 2016, 7:36 am

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Well from what I remember, you are correct in the aspect that it is never specifically said within the story of the manga itself. Except in the beginning of the Infinity Arc, where you hear the people talking about Haruka and Michiru. They state that they are dating there, but it isn't ever mentioned again as far as I know.



I don't recall the beginning of the Infinity Arc, but I do recall that happening in the Dreams Arc where it's cited that people assume that they're "engaged", because of their rings. However in the next panel we're shown shown Setsuna's oath/promise ring to which we are told that the rings are emblematic of their vow to raise Hotaru. That right there seems to call into question the idea that Michiru and Haruka are necessarily lovers. I do however recall that Michiru introduces Haruka as having the strength of both in the battle scene at the school. I came to take that as Haruka and Michiru using that as a cover, and not necessarily that she was a lesbian. After all, the senshi are vowed to defend Usagi for life. We get something similar with Rei and Minako towards the end of Stars. 

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However, besides that, it is heavily implied. And with other versions of SM confirming it (using manga as its source material) then I think its safe to say they are a couple in manga canon. 



Right, but I think in the case of the musicals and other sources, it's left open to interpretation within that particular adaptation. I seem to recall elsewhere that Naoko wrote off rumours of Haruka and Michiru eventually marrying, because they were meant to provide a new generation of guardians for their home planets.

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Actually, with the way they are stationed, its quite possible they never met each other in the past either. There is no evidence in any version that Neptune and Uranus have any sort of relationship in the past. 


I'm a bit confused as to how the Galaxy Cauldron fits in with our initial introduction to the senshi reincarnating in the future. In my opinion, I found the introduction of the Galaxy Cauldron in Stars very sloppy, because it broke with already established canon on the subject. While not official canon, I always took it to be that they were sent in a dormant state (dub anime) into the future, bodies and all. It never sat right with me that Usagi and Mamoru managed to declare themselves defacto rulers of the world. Does that mean that there was some sort of Silver Millennium consciousness amongst the inhabitants of the Earth? Also, why would most of the attacks center on Japan, when we're informed that in the period of Silver Millenium the Shitennou were kings in their own right over regions of the Earth. Why wouldn't that occur in the present? Are the Asteroid senshi meant to replace them given that they're technically Earth senshi?

Code:
This is one of those many issues of the manga that make me wonder why so many fans think it is the best thing ever lol. At this point is where fantheory comes in. Personally, the Door of Time was probably conne

Code:
All of these here can just be answered with fan theory. With the way its shown in the manga, the Inners during the Millenium are older than Princess Serenity, since it seems they were gathered prior to her birth to be trained (perhaps they were awoken from their respective planets by Queen Serenity? We have no clue though). The Outers, I believe were awoken by Queen Serenity and given their castles by Queen Serenity. She probably had the ability to see the Sailor Crystals on their planets and with her powers through the Silver Crystal, she was able to awaken them to humanoid forms (as in they didn't necessarily have a mother and father but were just sort of given life). I would think that when Queen Serenity had started her kingdom (however the heck it happened), she probably awakened the Outers before the Inners so they could have protection from them while she developed the inner planets and the Moon Kingdom. cted to Chrion castle, but after Saturn dropped her glaive in the past, it destroyed the castle and any access to it from that dimension. Thus, once Pluto was report again (which probably had to happen immediately considering her position and how she didn't get a human body until after the Black Moon arc thanks to NQS), she was stuck at the Door in the dimension that we see her in and thus why she is considered to be very old at that point and wise as she had seen all of history from the end of the Silver Millennium to the time where the events of SM take place.




Which is something else that confuses me. There is absolutely no backstory for the Outers other than Saturn awakening to "take them out" when Silver Millennium had been overwhelmed by Metallia/the death of Usagi. Michiru and Haruka apparently awakened on their own on Earth, while Setsuna was sent to the door of time, never having reincarnated? Doesn't Luna claim that no one with the exception of Queen Serenity had ever seen Sailor Pluto? Why wouldn't Sailor Pluto have any recollection of having died and being reborn? Mind you, I'm not talking about her death in the 30th century AD, but her initial death during Silver Millennium. Who was guarding the door of time while she had died during Silver Millennium, considering that they would have all been sent into the future with Usagi. 

Were the Outers only awakened in the past, because of Setsuna's death in the 30th century AD? After all, in order for Saturn to awaken Pluto needed to be present. We have absolutely no indication that Chibiusa was acquainted with Hotaru in the continuity of the Black Moon Arc. There is a huge unanswered plot hole pertaining to the relationship between the Inner and the Outer senshi in the present, and as far back as Silver Millennium. Still, I think there it is reasonable that the Outers were only awakened in the present (By who? Pluto?) due to Pluto's death in the future. That however doesn't quite explain Pharaoh 90's (Chaos) presence in Hotaru's youth. Who was defending the world when the senshi had yet to be awakened? Luna and Artemis?

But to return back to the subject of their relationship, wouldn't they have had the memories of their previous lives restored to them, and thus assumed those roles accordingly? I realize that we only have that happening with Mamoru and Usagi, as well as the Inner senshi, but I can't quite wrap my mind around how their relationship in their previous lives wouldn't have had an affect on their relationships in the present. I could perhaps see Uranus and Neptune being awakened by some form of strange attraction between them, to which not all of their memories would be restored until Saturn (or perhaps Pluto) was awakened. After all, Neptune and Uranus are deemed twin planets. 

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[size=14]As far as Phobos and Deimos go...well, seems they were just there for plot device for Dream Arc. hehe. However, I think the reincarnation powers Queen Serenity used went beyond just Sailor Crystals and was able to give everyone a new future. I know this was show in the anime during the Silver Millenium flashback scenes, but i think that power can extend in the manga too even if its not explicitly said. It seems Queen Serenity was quite powerful as she had the ability to go to the Cauldron itself. So I believe she has these powers as well. Just look how strong Usagi is able to become as Sailor Moon with the same silver crystal Queen Serenity used.[/size]
[size=14][/size]


Initially I would have agreed, but we later learn that Phobos and Deimos are from the same planet as Sailor Animamate Lead Crow. There is a bit of a stand off between the three of them (As there is between Luna, Artemis, and Sailor Animamate Tin Nyanko (I'm of the opinion that Diana would be the new Sailor Mau.) in which we learn a bit more about the inhabitants of their respective planets. There is an entire civilization on Galaxia's home planet, along with the inhabitants of the other planets in Stars. They were senshi in training as it were, and served the function of advisers to Mars in the manner that Luna and Artemis did to Queen Serenity, Usagi, and Minako (Tangent:Was Artemis always Minako's cat? It seems strange that he'd live so far removed from Luna).

To me it makes more sense that Pluto guardian of the Underworld and Time would play the role of sending them into the future with the aid of the Galaxy Cauldron. It seems so very strange that she wouldn't have played a role in that process.


Last edited by east02west on 11th January 2016, 8:08 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Coding)
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PostSubject: Re: Haruka and Michiru's relationship among other things.   11th January 2016, 8:25 pm

@east02west wrote:
Right, but I think in the case of the musicals and other sources, it's left open to interpretation within that particular adaptation. I seem to recall elsewhere that Naoko wrote off rumours of Haruka and Michiru eventually marrying, because they were meant to provide a new generation of guardians for their home planets.
If I'm reading this correctly, you are stating that Haruka and Michiru eventually marry men specifically to have babies to become the next generation of senshi? Whatever gave you that idea? Beyond the specifically stated alternate universe story with Kousagi, Naoko has none of the girls "married off" and have children to provide a new generation - the girls are ageless, and it's stated that their places at the Queen's side will be taken by the Asteroid Senshi when Small Lady ascends the throne; from what we've seen, their lives are extended indefinitely and they will have no need of providing a new generation.

But ♪~ Stop! Wait a minute, fill my cup put some interviews in it.
Choice questions/answers; interviews sourced on that site wrote:

In an interview from the Italian Kappa Magazine #51, September 1996, Takeuchi said, "The relationship between Haruka and Michiru is quite special. I think the most important feeling in the world is friendship. The friendship between them is so strong that it becomes love. There's not only heterosexual love, but there also can be a homosexual love, in this case between two girls."


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Actually, with the way they are stationed, its quite possible they never met each other in the past either. There is no evidence in any version that Neptune and Uranus have any sort of relationship in the past. 


I'm a bit confused as to how the Galaxy Cauldron fits in with our initial introduction to the senshi reincarnating in the future. In my opinion, I found the introduction of the Galaxy Cauldron in Stars very sloppy, because it broke with already established canon on the subject.(1) While not official canon, I always took it to be that they were sent in a dormant state (dub anime) into the future, bodies and all. It never sat right with me that Usagi and Mamoru managed to declare themselves defacto rulers of the world. Does that mean that there was some sort of Silver Millennium consciousness amongst the inhabitants of the Earth?(2) Also, why would most of the attacks center on Japan, when we're informed that in the period of Silver Millenium the Shitennou were kings in their own right over regions of the Earth. Why wouldn't that occur in the present?(3) Are the Asteroid senshi meant to replace them given that they're technically Earth senshi?(4)
(1)The Galaxy Cauldron has nothing to do with the senshi reincarnating into the future - that pure Silver Crystal magic. The Galaxy Cauldron was used by QS to facilitate Princess Serenity's birth only

(2)It is not discussed how they came to rule the Earth, just that they ended up doing so; in the anime they used a natural disaster to bring about the change, but it is not brought up in the manga, only that the realization of the dream was set to come true once Usagi and Mamoru had their happy ending in getting married and finding out Usagi was pregnant. Fans headcanon that there was one more disaster, and after that Usagi came out as Neo Queen Serenity after saving the world as Eternal Sailor Moon one more time.

(3)In the beginning, before Usagi awoke as Sailor Moon, Beryl had agents all over the world. Jadeite was in charge of Japan (Far Eastern Jeneral), Nephrite was North America, etc.; it wasn't until the senshi awoke in the current time that everything starts happening exclusively in Japan and that is explained in Stars in the very nature of chaos: light calls to the darkness, even as darkness calls to the light. Chaos is attracted to the light of the Sailor Crystals; the brighter they shone, the more dangerous enemies they attracted, whether those enemies realized they were moths to Usagi's flame or not.

(4)it's stated that the Asteroid Senshi are to be Small Lady's Guardian senshi - the new inner team to her new Sailor Moon.

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Which is something else that confuses me. There is absolutely no backstory for the Outers other than Saturn awakening to "take them out" when Silver Millennium had been overwhelmed by Metallia/the death of Usagi. Michiru and Haruka apparently awakened on their own on Earth, while Setsuna was sent to the door of time, never having reincarnated? Doesn't Luna claim that no one with the exception of Queen Serenity had ever seen Sailor Pluto? Why wouldn't Sailor Pluto have any recollection of having died and being reborn? Mind you, I'm not talking about her death in the 30th century AD, but her initial death during Silver Millennium. Who was guarding the door of time while she had died during Silver Millennium, considering that they would have all been sent into the future with Usagi.
See here: link

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Were the Outers only awakened in the past, because of Setsuna's death in the 30th century AD? After all, in order for Saturn to awaken Pluto needed to be present. We have absolutely no indication that Chibiusa was acquainted with Hotaru in the continuity of the Black Moon Arc. There is a huge unanswered plot hole pertaining to the relationship between the Inner and the Outer senshi in the present, and as far back as Silver Millennium. Still, I think there it is reasonable that the Outers were only awakened in the present (By who? Pluto?) due to Pluto's death in the future. That however doesn't quite explain Pharaoh 90's (Chaos) presence in Hotaru's youth. Who was defending the world when the senshi had yet to be awakened? Luna and Artemis?
When Chibiusa went to the past the first time, she created a new timeline, a timeline wherein the senshi went to the future and thus changed their own future forever. The original timeline was hinted to have been like them facing Metallia, one more obstacle, and then becoming Queen of the World, which is why she handled the Black Moon Clan without the understanding of Chaos she gained throughout her later adventures as Sailor Moon.  In that original timeline, where ChibiUsa originated, there had been no incident with Pharoah 90 and no need to awaken the outers - Pharoah 90 had not been attracted to Earth, for whatever reason - maybe abandoned his plan originally? Maybe the draw of what the senshi had become and the light they had accumulated made developments actually happen the second time around, etc. 

Before the senshi had awakened, it's likely nothing actually went down - without their light there was no draw for chaos's darkness.

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But to return back to the subject of their relationship, wouldn't they have had the memories of their previous lives restored to them, and thus assumed those roles accordingly? I realize that we only have that happening with Mamoru and Usagi, as well as the Inner senshi, but I can't quite wrap my mind around how their relationship in their previous lives wouldn't have had an affect on their relationships in the present. I could perhaps see Uranus and Neptune being awakened by some form of strange attraction between them, to which not all of their memories would be restored until Saturn (or perhaps Pluto) was awakened. After all, Neptune and Uranus are deemed twin planets.
A lot of this series is about Miracle Romance - people who, despite all odds, are somehow able to find each other, fall in love, and protect that love despite all the odds. In the Silver Millennium, Neptune and Uranus did not work together, did not speak to one another, for fear that their talismans would react and they would awaken Saturn prematurely. There was no chance for them to fall in love, so we cannot judge them based on their past lives in this regard. 
....for the other stuff, see the link above for my answers to your theory thread.
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 (Tangent:Was Artemis always Minako's cat? It seems strange that he'd live so far removed from Luna).

To me it makes more sense that Pluto guardian of the Underworld and Time would play the role of sending them into the future with the aid of the Galaxy Cauldron. It seems so very strange that she wouldn't have played a role in that process.
Tangent: No, Artemis was adviser to Queen Serenity and awoke Minako as Sailor Venus for tactical reasons; he remained with her as she took on the role of decoy princess to keep her one step ahead of everyone in the game and get her prepared for her leadership role; you see Artemis with Queen Serenity on the moon, hardly ever with the senshi during the silver millennium.

Pluto does not have the power of reincarnation - she doesn't even have the power over death, just the realm of the dead, if that. Only the Silver Crystal has powers of life and reincarnation, and as she, too, died when the scythe fell, she would not have been able to aide in it anyway.

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