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 DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)

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Houyou no Senshi
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PostSubject: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 4:29 am

So I uploaded this on tumblr recently. A quick comparison of the ten Soldiers with ten of the main villains from the series:

Basically: many of the villains in Sailor Moon actually suffer from similar problems as the "good" characters in Sailor Moon, though they tend to react alot more extremely (because murder and kill all the things ever) and don't handle it well. But to give them their dues, they tend to deal with the issues on a much much wider scale. e.g. Lilith and the deaths of hundreds upon hundreds of her children against Usagi and her dozen or so friend's deaths or Ami and being unable to socialise and Dark Plasman being rejected by the entire Solar System. In addition to this, most of them had never been brought up with the ideals of "love, friendship, honesty, charity, kindness and faith", so how in the world would these villains supposed to utilise them if they had never known it? Does it really make it their fault?

So in short, are the villains really such bad people? Are they that different to the Sailor Soldiers? Discuss:

The Comparisons:

#1 - Makoto & Professor Tomoe

Just wanted to protect those closest to them

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 1jupit10

#2 - Minako & Death Vulcan

Had everything they knew torn away from them

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 2venus10

#3 - Ami & Dark Plasman

Just wanted friends

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 3mercu10

#4 - Rei & Sailor Galaxia

Felt they needed to prove themselves as individuals

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 4mars10

#5 - Chibiusa & Queen Nehelenia

Just wanted to be a beautiful elegant lady

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 5chibi10

#6 - Michiru & Fiore

Wanted to save the one they loved at any cost

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 6neptu10

#7 - Haruka & Prince Demand

Felt sacrifice was the only way to save their people

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 7uranu10

#8 - Hotaru & Death Lamia

Had forgotten what it was like to be a normal human

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 8satur10

#9 - Setsuna & Beryl

Fated to an eternity of unrequited love

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 9pluto10

#10 - Usagi & Lilith of Darkness

Only wanted a just world of equality

DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 10moon10

Quick summary of the myu characters added for those who are unfamiliar since there aren't enough main villains in the series, I wanted to only include one from each story, the rest you should be hopefully familiar with:


Death Vulcan: (The Sealing of the Super Planet Vulcan) - half the personification of a two-faced planet on the other side of the Sun, between Mercury and the Sun itself. In the age of the Silver Millennium, Princess Serenity split this planet into two, a light and dark side (the light being called Vulcan and the dark being called Death Vulcan), his grudge and pain of being torn from his other half led him to ally people under him to shatter the Silver Crystal.

Dark Plasman: (The Legend of Kaguya Island) - part of the personification of the Comet Coatl. When the Solar System's order was arranged, his comet was left out, in 3000BCE, Coatl, lonely, sought to supersede the Earth, Princess Moon managed to use the Moon's gravitational pull to throw the trajectory of Coatl away for 5000 years. These additional 5000 years led Coatl to become even colder and lonelier than ever before.

Death Lamia: (The Overture of Last Dracul) - a female vampire of hundreds of years old, throughout the musical, she attempts to create a new race of humans known as Homunculi to drink the blood of as she feels the modern humans have become too corrupted. She is torn between her vague memories of her normal life before becoming a vampire and her own bloodlust.

Lilith of Darkness: (The Forest of Transylvania) - a woman from the very beginning of Mankind, the first woman created (before Eve) by God. Lilith refused to marry Adam on the principle that she didn't see why women had to be subservient to men (explaining why Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs), as punishment, God forced Lilith to give birth to one hundred children every day and then killed them all. Lilith went mad and attempted to drown herself in the Red Sea but was saved by Samael (Satan), whom she mated with. Lilith spent a great deal in the Underworld, in the year 2000, when the Silver Crystal was at its weakest. She sought to annihilate the world and create a new world of equality where men and women are equal and spirit, human, animal and plant all can exist together.


/Miki's opinion:

Though I do not believe any of the ten villains to be justified 100%, I do believe they were lost individuals who did not know how to love properly and this was manipulated by Chaos. I think they were not "evil" but needed to learn a lesson or two from Sailor Moon (in the case of many of the above thankfully, Usagi did teach them true humanity)

I do however feel that these "villains" in particular are not so different to the Sailor Soldiers in most cases.
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 5:59 am

my favorite comparison is Chibiusa and Nehellenia.^^ <3

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 11:32 am

Interesting... I do like the Chibi-Usagi and Nehellenia as well as the Professor Tomoe and Jupiter comparisons. (Not to sure about either of these in the manga, the anime these comparisons are true — to a degree.)

Although, I do wonder which of the anime or manga pacific characters in terms of enemy-hero/ine are likely to get compared.
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 11:39 am

I really love this. A LOT DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 1637911638 (Especially the fact that you compared Pluto and Beryl <3 <3 I love those two so much!)

But I agree with your thoughts. I think a lot of the villains are supposed to show the extremities of these situations.

And I think comparing them to the Senshi is on point because I think they are supposed to play off each other. The villains are generally the ones who show how these strong emotions can go *badly*, while the senshi can show how these emotions can be used for good.

(Also, which musical are the Beryl and Pluto screens from?)

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 12:02 pm

This. Is. Awesome.

So awesome that it will take me a while to think about it, and I have no insight right now. I just wanted to say that this is awesome.
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 4:02 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I really love this. A LOT DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 1637911638 (Especially the fact that you compared Pluto and Beryl <3 <3 I love those two so much!)

But I agree with your thoughts. I think a lot of the villains are supposed to show the extremities of these situations.

And I think comparing them to the Senshi is on point because I think they are supposed to play off each other. The villains are generally the ones who show how these strong emotions can go *badly*, while the senshi can show how these emotions can be used for good.

(Also, which musical are the Beryl and Pluto screens from?)

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 4:44 pm

I think my favorite comparisons are Rei and Galaxia, which is like...wow I never thought of it that way, but yeah, especially with PGSM Rei, I totally see that now.

Chibi-Usa and Nehellenia need to get together and have a girls night.

And omg Pluto and Beryl. T_T Onna no Ronsou T_T



Edit: if you just want to see the song, stop watching the video at about 2:20 er more like 2:40...apparently i'm dumb. xD

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 5:43 pm

Miki, I am just. Wow. Excellent, excellent comparison. I would have never thuoght of things in this light. Especially with the characters I do know. This is like, accurate. And I love the Chibiusa/Nehelenia one as well; they just want to be loved and beautiful.

To answer your question, I'd have to say the only thing that seperates these villains from the senshi would be the fact that their "darkness" was a bit stronger and therefore attracted Chaos which heightened this darkness inside of them which made them act more extreme.

I enjoy villains that you can relate to and have actual stories. That aren't just bad to be bad or because they're power hungry.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 6:07 pm

What about Black Lady and Dark Mercury Wink

I would think some more of them might have their own Dark Sides...
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime26th September 2012, 6:52 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I really love this. A LOT DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) 1637911638 (Especially the fact that you compared Pluto and Beryl <3 <3 I love those two so much!)

But I agree with your thoughts. I think a lot of the villains are supposed to show the extremities of these situations.

And I think comparing them to the Senshi is on point because I think they are supposed to play off each other. The villains are generally the ones who show how these strong emotions can go *badly*, while the senshi can show how these emotions can be used for good.

I forgot to say that I really love this idea here, Verdandi.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime27th September 2012, 7:35 am

Really interesting idea - I've never thought about it this way!
Though I've always felt that the villains in Sailor Moon aren't really truly bad people. Except maybe Prince Demand. Rape is not cool. D:

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime27th September 2012, 8:46 am

While rape is definitely not a good thing, I think at that point he was so twisted by Wiseman that I think he was going to do anything to get what he wanted. If he hadn't been manipulated by Wiseman, I think he may have went about things differently. He still would have this infatuation with Serenity, but maybe he wouldn't have acted on his feelings in such a strong manner? Especially in the way that he did because he pretty much abandoned his clan when it came to that.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime28th September 2012, 1:42 pm

Do you think Wiseman manipulated the members of the Black Moon clan to be otherwise incestuous, too, though?

I wonder about that. Esmeraude gets really deeply upset that Diamond doesn't want her the way she wants him. And Sappir...that's a whole mess too. The family is definitely twisted, to say the least. I don't think their original crime that had them exiled to Nemesis really merited banishment, but the stuff they've done after that - it's hard to say if they really are corrupt people in the first place.

Rape is bad. Incest is pretty terrible too though. >___>

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime28th September 2012, 2:44 pm

I don't think it was mentioned that Esmeraude was blood related to Dimande, but we don't really know how the genetics and reproducing went on that planet anyway...

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime28th September 2012, 4:41 pm

Small Lady wrote:
I don't think it was mentioned that Esmeraude was blood related to Dimande, but we don't really know how the genetics and reproducing went on that planet anyway...

Though I never felt that they were closely related by blood, they only made reference to Petz and her sisters being related by blood and Saphir and Demand being brothers, perhaps they had common ancestors (by the sounds of the situation they most certainly did) or else they were just various families that banded together but I think this sounds like an idea for another debate. I think though Demand believed he had good intentions, he went about the wrong way about it, he's especially less justified than other villains because his own brother was telling him over and over and over that he felt Demand was making a mistake, most other villains never did have a voice of reason, and so wouldn't actually be able to comprehend an alternative to their methods
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime28th September 2012, 4:43 pm

So speaking of Wiseman, who would we compare him too?

He is really just going for revenge, i can think of the instance in Transylvania no Mori where Sailor Uranus goes after the vampires to seek revenge for what happened to Sailor Neptune in Last Dracul, but i don't know if that's the best comparison.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime28th September 2012, 4:49 pm

Small Lady wrote:
So speaking of Wiseman, who would we compare him too?

He is really just going for revenge, i can think of the instance in Transylvania no Mori where Sailor Uranus goes after the vampires to seek revenge for what happened to Sailor Neptune in Last Dracul, but i don't know if that's the best comparison.

As Wiseman, in the timeline of the series is Death Phantom, and therefore a pure form of Chaos, its going to be difficult to compare him to anyone really, we don't really know much about Wiseman when he was actually alive, so its a little tricky to judge. Since Wiseman's intentions were, at least in my opinion, purely malicious, however, you could also argue that originally he believed Neoqueen Serenity was some kind of purging dictator, if he believed that evil needed to exist to counter good then he could actually be compared to Usagi herself. But, in all honesty, Wiseman is yuck how could you ever do something like that to Esmeraude, get him away from my characters.
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime28th September 2012, 5:22 pm

Lol, Wiseman is pretty yuck.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime29th September 2012, 1:03 am

Of all the characters listed, I feel the manga's Galaxia, is the most inclined towards "true evil", I found it VERY hard i felt to sympathise with her manga's portrayal, (anime and myu tend to just blame everything on Chaos, so its easier to like her there) but the point is, there are many people who exist in that state of the mind, to feel they have to shine all over the rest or else prove their worth. The idea that "people need people", I feel has always been a major issue in the series, and its particularly notable for Rei especially in PGSM. So in the end, are Rei and Galaxia really that different, they both push people away to quite a great extent and only Usagi seems to be pushy enough to get through to them. True Galaxia killed alot of people and Rei never killed anyone she couldn't avoid, but its still a wide gap. The Rei/Galaxia one is the one I'm iffy-est about here. Next would come Haruka/Demand. But I think Demand truly thought he was in the right, however he was a vain and selfish individual who went after Usagi, in my opinion, simply because he couldn't have her, he rejected his beliefs as soon as he found something "better" to do. Which deviates from Haruka who appears to have sacrificed a proper relationship with Michiru for the sake of their mission prior to the events of the Infinity arc.

Meanwhile you've got Usagi and Lilith, who both were pretty much trying to do the same thing, they believed their respective beliefs about justice and equality were right and sought to purge what opposed them to create a better world for all.

So I think, there is a level of villains on the scale of Evil, because some do have genuine good intentions or else they simply don't know how to react because they have never fully understood concepts like love and friendship (in the case of Dark Plasman or Nehelenia)

But in the end, I think the villains are alot less different to the girls than they're given credit, they're just faced with problems on a wider scale that pushed many of them over the edge of reason and sanity -definitely the case for manga Demand when Saphir died. (Hotaru's childhood of being outcast from society vs. Lamia's hundreds of years, Ami's lack of friends vs. Coatl's 5000 years of solitude) What do you guys think
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime29th September 2012, 9:50 am

I think that convincing villains should have traits and motivations understandable for normal people. IMO, it's is great strength of the series to present villains like that. It also helps to redeem so many bad guys.

As for Diamond - yes, rape is bad and I don't think he can be justified by Wiseman's influence. Though IMO love for his brother saves him from being purely evil.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime29th September 2012, 12:14 pm

Yeah, I don't think Wiseman's influence justifies his actions, it just makes me wonder if he would have done what he did without Wiseman's influence. I mean, if he still would have kidnapped Usagi and tried to rape her, without Wiseman's influence, then he's just a messed up twisted person. If Wiseman was really that influencial, then perhaps he can be seen as more sympathetic (in my eyes at least, i really don't like the guy at all, i'm just curious how much of his actions were Wiseman influenced).

Anyway, Miki, I agree with what you are saying. A lot of the villains have become corrupt just because of the extent of their pain, while the Senshi can sympathize with them, I don't think, with the case of some villains, they truly can understand. The only exception to that is Beryl and Pluto, since Pluto has been around for so long and having to deal with the heart ache of unrequited love.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime29th September 2012, 5:26 pm

I think that although Demand is unjustified and its probably under mostly his own will rather than Wiseman, I get the feeling that Demand has not been brought up that he cannot have everything. there is a chance he simply doesn't understand that attempting to rape Usagi was morally corrupt. I think this is a case for many of the villains who have been raised in hatred and lack of love
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PostSubject: Nice topic!   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime12th December 2018, 2:15 am

This is a fun subject. I really have to agree with the previous posts, regarding how the presence of love and friendship with the Senshi may explain why the villains and they diverged in their "solutions" to their problems.
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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime12th December 2018, 8:00 am

ooo, interesting thread!

I like a lot of the comparisons, but I also think in some cases, the difference between the senshi and their villain counterparts is... what they're willing to sacrifice?

With the villains, the reason they often take things so far is they have gone through so much and they're so focused on how bad their situation is, that they fail to recognize themselves enacting the same things on others, or they do notice, but don't care because they think they are justified, or that they matter more than others.

With (anime) Tomoe and Jupiter, for example, I feel like it's just a lack of insight on Tomoe's part. He's in a crisis, and he sees one way to save his daughter, and so he doesn't necessarily consider the fact that being possessed by an alien maybe isn't the best idea (the manga is considerably different with Tomoe's motivations, imo). Likewise with Pluto and Beryl. Beryl feels so wronged that she takes it out on other people without consideration for them, while Pluto handles her emotions on her own. This difference in reasoning can be applied to most of the inners.

An exception to this would probably be Michiru? She's quite ruthless, especially when she's like yeah I'd rather destroy the whole world than kill Haruka. In her case, I think it's Haruka's moral compass which keeps her in line.

WHICH BRINGS UP HARUKA, who is an interesting case because at the beginning of infinity she is willing to sacrifice a child to save the world. I personally find this a bit of an exception to the finding your goals more important than a sacrifice, because it's more of a trolley problem than actually killing someone, BUT it doesn't matter anyways because instead of retaining this mindset, Haruka gets development! Another huge difference between her and Demande is that Haruka is focused on minimizing loss of life, while Demande cares more about who is saved, which is a much more personal goal.

There's also a huge comparison in Infinity (which is especially emphasized in UNV) between the Outers and the Death Busters. The Death Busters want to sacrifice the Earth for the Tau System, the Outers want to sacrifice a child for the Earth, and the inners are like NOBODY IS GONNA DIE. \

Usagi is an interesting one, though! Obviously, the scale once again is important, Lilith wanting to. Destroy the world to make a new one. I think here, while their goal is similar, their motivations are widely different. Usagi is focused on protecting what exists, while Lilith wants to make a new, perfect world. Barring the fact that Lilith's goals are a bit unrealistic, there's also the fact that her reasoning is more selfish, or at least seems more selfish, wanting to make her ideal world (and be the mother of it). Going on a tangent a bit, I just realized she reminds me a bit of Light from Death Note?? Wants to make his ideal world and rule over it. In any case, I don't trust Utopias. But, back to Usagi, while her goal seems more selfless with just wanting to protect the people of the Earth, you could also say in a way it is selfish to prioritize her planet over, for example, Death Vulcan or Coatl. However, at the same time, simply handing over her power to them isn't the right thing to do either. One thing I like about Usagi, especially in the musicals, and in Stars as well, is that she struggles with this. When she hears that everyone came from the cauldron, she wonders what right she had to destroy them. She wonders if the ginzuishou is actually the source of all their problems, and why she is the one who gets to hold that power. So the biggest difference between Usagi and the various villains she faces (including Lilith) is that while they seek power or revolution to fix the world, Usagi just had power thrown at her and then had to decide what to do with it. This is one reason I've always found Crystal Tokyo to be interesting, though. Like I said, I don't trust Utopias. The only way I see Usagi taking over is via a crisis that devastated the Earth and it being apparent she was the one who saved it, and once again, being thrown into a position of power and having to try her best to navigate it. Alternatively, it could be a case of her becoming more like her villain counterparts and trying to actively use her power to force the world into her own idealized view...

I talked more than I meant to, so I'll leave it there.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime12th December 2018, 2:46 pm

Some great observations, I love how even Myu-exclusive villains are brought into this.

I've thought about this topic somewhat before, mostly as far as Pluto and Beryl are concerned with their both being destined to unrequited love but dealing with it in different ways (mostly because there's an entire Myu song dedicated to it, making that comparison hard to miss if you're a fan of the musicals like me).

On the Chibiusa and Nehelenia comparison, what's interesting about them is that while they do both want to be beautiful and elegant, one wants to grow older while the other wants to stay young.

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime12th December 2018, 3:16 pm

Personally, I love the ideas and thoughts in all these.  But my main thing is you'd definitely have to divorce them from being lumped together characterizations overall and narrow it down more.  Mostly because each character is different in their motives or overall theme depending on who's writing/which version we're going with. 

For instance, 90s!Anime Haruka is more tortured than her Manga/SMC counterpart.  The anime illustrates more throughly how difficult it is to choose between a single life vs.  6-7Billion lives at stake. Never mind the Millions alone in Japan itself. 90s Anime Haruka had far more at stake and seemed to be more traumatized by what she's witnessed.  Because unlike the Inners, Haruka and Michiru were battling monsters that -were once human- that they couldn't either Save or Turn back into normal humans.  That may color how they saw things. It would've, definitely, change how they operate and whether or not they could continually justify their actions (which they do throughout the season.)  

As with what Cardea said-  the main difference in 90s Anime Haruka and 90s Anime Diamond is the simple fact that Haruka wants to Save Lives with the LEAST amount of damage possible.

90s Anime Diamond is also Vastly Different from his manga counterpart. Manga!Diamond is irredeemable.  And to a degree, I don't cheer for 90s anime Diamond either.  So, lets get that bit out of the way. 

90s!Anime Diamond is definitely without remorse. Everything has to be on a personal level with him. And while it IS tragic that he and his group were mostly being misled by Wiseman, there's an element of willingness to kill countless thousands (perhaps even millions if what they've done to Crystal Tokyo had a wider effect on the rest of the world) of people for the decision of one nation.  (which really is kind a how it goes sometimes.. ).  

Anyway, the main difference between 90s Anime Haruka and 90s Anime Diamond is the simple fact of both motives and the outcome they want.  (Like some other poster said, it's *who* Diamond want's to survive everything that matters more than actually just saving anyone.)  Top it off, The BMC were invaders. They're more comparable to the Death Busters tbh.  And Even then, I think the Death Busters had more of a claim to just wanting to survive because staying where they were was going to kill them eventually.  While, BMC were simply descendants with the technology to, idk, Leave Nemesis at any point and time.  After all, the 90s Anime established that they came from 'the edges of the universe' or something, which implies they were never part of the Solar system to begin with.

There's nothing, really, stopping the BMC or the people of Nemesis from finding a different and better home in another star system. There's plenty of evidence of there being life elsewhere in the galaxy. Then they have time travel at their fingertips. So why didn't they just colonizer a part of earth in the past? Or go further into the future? (There doesn't actually seem to be a limit, other than not wanting to overheat the BMCrystal?  Maybe.)

tl;dr:  The main difference here is Haruka wants to Save Earth, but must sacrifice a person to do this.  Diamond just wants to wholesale destroy everything in his path in order to claim Earth- even if it means to destroy the earth itself in the process.  It became -less- about giving his people a better place/revenge against the white moon and more about his obsession with possession NQSerenity as well as thoughtlessly just killing people.


I don't think Chibiusa and Queen Nehellenia can be compared?  Not really because the goals of each are vastly different depending on which canon you look at. 

But lets go with 90s Anime Chibiusa. (I think Manga version Chibiusa is a bit more complex.)  

Anyway- their goals and dreams are different. Nehellenia doesn't want to be just an 'elegant' lady. That's not her goal. That's not even what motivated her to become corrupted and evil, I think. Especially if you include Stars with her arc conclusion to it.    Chibiusa's goal of wanting to be an elegant lady stems from her feeling overshadowed and inadequate compared to her mother. 

I think the pair of them could be compared because the heart of their issues is also that they're lonely royals who had no real friends growing up (except for Chibiusa who had Pluto and later Diana in the 90s anime and also made friends in the past.).

What motivated Nehellenia to the path of wanting to preserve her beauty was pretty plainly pointed out: It was because her subjects only praised her for that.  Nehellenia had been such a lonely kid, so desperate for another person and companionship as well as wanting to be accepted completely by another soul.  It's highlighted a lot throughout the Dream Arc and Stars how very alone she is, how she's seperate from others and the mirror being her solace and refuge- ultimately her prison because she's wrapped up in the thought of being someone who wasn't beautiful. Someone who- because she wasn't beautiful or young anymore- would become unlovable, ignored, treated less than, no longer admired or praised.  <- Aka: The Very thing she was surrounded by and grew up with to prize as being a Good Thing to embody and the only thing people seemed to want of her from her point of view. 

The Tragedy of Nehellenia in the 90s anime is that she never knew or understood how much her citizens/subjects actually adored and loved her for more than just her looks on some levels.  And it mostly has to do with her not reaching out at all. 

In Comparison:  Chibiusa's tragedy is both self-inflicted and something other people have inflicted upon her.  Because she *is* a princess she's trapped with the expectations of being and acting in a certian manner or looking a certain way-  which in this case is Her Mother.    NQSerenity, though not meaning to, has turned into the Bar set for beauty, poise, and behavior.  And while we- the audience and possibly the inner Sailor soldier/Endymion- know she's a goofyball underneath all that frill and lace,  the people and Chibiusa don't know this. 
Or rather, Chibiusa, herself, hasn't thought of her mother as being nothing short of an unattainable goddess. A figure that she couldn't hope to be.  Then you factor in that because of her position, it's difficult for her to find or have friends.  Both because she's The Princess- she gets bullied by others because she isn't like the queen in any respect, then top that off Security Reasons- and because she's isolated in the Crystal palace the majority of the time.  And when she's not there, she's never on her own, really.  Also, her parents and guardians are busy most of the time - so she doesn't get all the attention she needs/feels she should have.

tl;dr:  Chibiusa and Nehellenia cannot be compared on the fact they want to be 'elegant ladies' as that isn't their motivation as to WHY they want to be elegant/beautiful women.  90s Anime Chibiusa is haunted and yearing for the image of her mother and measures herself by her mother's already successful status and stature (she's seeing the end result and not the work that went into it.). 
Nehellenia wants it because she was only praised for her looks and never reached out to anyone other than her mirror.  So she never knew that she could be loved or befriend others in different ways. (This is also primarily because she became queen too young and wasn't given guidance or anything like that to begin with.)


Ragh, I could go on about Usagi because Usagi didn't want equality or anything like that. I feel like it was coincidentally something that happened with Crystal Tokyo and the like.  Since Usagi's original Dream and Wish was to Protect the Earth, and just be Happy with her Family.  

But like, I haven't seen/ or better yet I don't remember some of these musicals so I can't comment on them.   I just think a lot of it is situational and it highly depends on which version of the character you're looking at since their motives change from one version to the other.  (Like 90s Diamond and Manga!Diamond have very different ideals and motivations for their plot.)

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PostSubject: Re: DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw)   DEBATE: Are They Really That Different (Depressing Thread Btw) I_icon_minitime20th December 2018, 9:46 am

Actually, since we're also talking about Myu, Princess Serenity and Beryl could also be likened with to one another. While love motivated them both, it was more of a primary motivator for Serenity, while for Beryl, as political elements also were involved, although it did play an important role it didn't seem to be as much as it was for Serenity. Beryl's lingering sadness for Endymion may have motivated her to lead the invasion force, but Serenity's response to the consequences of their relationship, implied heavily to have not been desired by the Earth Kingdom, was no less drastic. One wonders whether Serenity would have acted similarly if the situation were reversed, considering that she did not take the loss of Endymion very well either.
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