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Mayonnaise
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 3:02 am

Say guys, i just received my copy, and i noticed something.
Usagi's henshin spell is "Moon Eternal Make Up". Did the reprint replace "Silver Moon Crystal Power Make Up" or did Kodansha just though the anime name was better?

EDIT: After checking on Miss Dream, it's just an alteration made by naoko sensei herself... Hope nobody will say it's a mistake of kod that ruin the thing.

I wonder if she liked the name better or if Toei asked her to do so?

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 7:37 am

booo I like the old one better. xD;
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 8:13 am

After reading the whole thing: Silver Moon Crystal Power is used everywhere else. So it's more that Takeuchi forgot to edit it afterward.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 9:18 am

pff Maybe her unconscious mind just went "...I like my version better than Eternal Moon. " ..xD;
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 10:58 am

@Ktenshi wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Quote :
There's no proof that they are males on earth. There's no proof that they're anything else but female.

Yes, there is no proof that they are males, and there is no proof that they are females. So I don't know why anime making them males is such a problem. In both canons they are really females, male forms are just disguise on Earth.

Because the manga also doesn't state they're in male form. People -assumed- they're men. The same way we all assumed Haruka was male when actuality, she's female with a female form in and out of senshi form. That's why it's a problem.

But again, if you wanna believe they are male in the manga, that's fine. Agree to disagree.

Actually, it's not important for me. It's just annoying to hear constantly that in manga they were clearly for the whole time females and how anime ruined it, for nefarious reasons.

Quote :
In the Manga, she's less perfect, especially given in certain seasons. She's been corrupted at least once, she's owned up to her jealous behavior more, she's actually matured and kept consistent and is more believable than her anime counterpart. Frankly, Anime Usagi is more of a sue because of the fact that never once did she fall prey to an enemies' magic. Not once did she do something terrible under their power. While in the manga in the first book or two, she's possessed like the rest of them, digging around and looking for the silver crystal. As a Queen in the future, she admitted to having lost herself/power/whathave you. We don't get that in the anime counterpart or really -anything- from Neo Queen Serenity admitting any mistake whatsoever. The only time, in my opinion, that Manga Usagi and Anime Usagi align is in StarS and that's only some of the time.

Actually, Anime Usagi was a few times influenced - in fairy land, when she was shown visions of others not appreciating her, when Diamond captured her, in SuperS movie with gingerbread house, on way to Nehellenie castle among flowers. In Dark Kingdom manga she isn't sueish yet - but still she is able to resist Endymion's mind control, which Mako falls under immediately.

In manga NQS claims her mistake was banishing Dead phantom instead of killing him immediately - which was pretty cold.

I believe in anime Usagi matured more - and what do you find inconsistent about her?

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 11:29 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
@Ktenshi wrote:
@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Quote :
There's no proof that they are males on earth. There's no proof that they're anything else but female.

Yes, there is no proof that they are males, and there is no proof that they are females. So I don't know why anime making them males is such a problem. In both canons they are really females, male forms are just disguise on Earth.

Because the manga also doesn't state they're in male form. People -assumed- they're men. The same way we all assumed Haruka was male when actuality, she's female with a female form in and out of senshi form. That's why it's a problem.

But again, if you wanna believe they are male in the manga, that's fine. Agree to disagree.

Actually, it's not important for me. It's just annoying to hear constantly that in manga they were clearly for the whole time females and how anime ruined it, for nefarious reasons.


No one said that. It's obvious that the Anime and Manga would deviate given how both were being produced at the same time and also the fallout between the production/director and the Creator. (Latter is not as important).

What we were saying was that the Anime made it -more- confusing for new fans when they added the outright appearance of the Starlights as males (how much male we don't know for certain.) opposed to the Manga stating that they're girls crossdressing as guys. They themselves haven't even admitted to being males either in the manga.

So, yeah, chill out over that. We're just saying the difference causes confusion.

Quote :
In the Manga, she's less perfect, especially given in certain seasons. She's been corrupted at least once, she's owned up to her jealous behavior more, she's actually matured and kept consistent and is more believable than her anime counterpart. Frankly, Anime Usagi is more of a sue because of the fact that never once did she fall prey to an enemies' magic. Not once did she do something terrible under their power. While in the manga in the first book or two, she's possessed like the rest of them, digging around and looking for the silver crystal. As a Queen in the future, she admitted to having lost herself/power/whathave you. We don't get that in the anime counterpart or really -anything- from Neo Queen Serenity admitting any mistake whatsoever. The only time, in my opinion, that Manga Usagi and Anime Usagi align is in StarS and that's only some of the time.

Actually, Anime Usagi was a few times influenced - in fairy land, when she was shown visions of others not appreciating her, when Diamond captured her, in SuperS movie with gingerbread house, on way to Nehellenie castle among flowers. In Dark Kingdom manga she isn't sueish yet - but still she is able to resist Endymion's mind control, which Mako falls under immediately.

In manga NQS claims her mistake was banishing Dead phantom instead of killing him immediately - which was pretty cold.

I believe in anime Usagi matured more - and what do you find inconsistent about her?[/quote]

SuperS for one.

Honestly, Anime Usagi has always been my least favorite and I saw her development to be lacking vs the Manga version of herself. Yeah she's been influence, but was she influenced enough to act on it? No, she wasn't. And no, I don't count the Movies as continuities unless it's the one with Princess Kaguya. But even then, I always felt that Usagi's best self was in the manga (or PGSM).

Especially in regards to change of seasons more or less. In the Anime during part of Super and SuperS I felt her personality and maturity take a backward step or two in her development. As oppose to the maturity she gains in the manga during the same timeline.


But these are all my personal perferences and opinions of Usagi.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 12:49 pm

As for Starlights, even here I remember a thread complaining about this supposed change.

As for Usagi - her development in anime is different, as she is generally more childlike, which she keeps to the end. Her silliness is also shown more. But there are also moments where she is very mature. While in manga, I don't remember so?

In manga Usagi is able to transform despite Black Crystal influence, destroy entire planet, recreate the world after Hotaru vanquished it, defeat all her friends influenced by Galaxia and release them from Galaxy Cauldron. None of this is in anime.

What do you find inconsistent about SuperS Usagi?

And do you not recognise R movie too?

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 3:22 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
As for Starlights, even here I remember a thread complaining about this supposed change.

As for Usagi - her development in anime is different, as she is generally more childlike, which she keeps to the end. Her silliness is also shown more. But there are also moments where she is very mature. While in manga, I don't remember so?

You and I have very different views on it. In SuperS, it was more focused not only on her, but Chibiusa AND Mamoru. She's had moment where she was silly but she was really mature too. Her relationship and dreams were explained better as was her helping Mamoru find his way to also harnessing his crystal. I just prefer her there better.


Quote :

In manga Usagi is able to transform despite Black Crystal influence, destroy entire planet, recreate the world after Hotaru vanquished it, defeat all her friends influenced by Galaxia and release them from Galaxy Cauldron. None of this is in anime.

Except she didn't destroy an entire planet on her own. Mamoru, Chibiusa ALSO helped her. She wasn't by herself in that endeavor. She didn't recreate the world. She only revived a portion of a city that was destroyed as a result of their battle (Better repair work than in the anime.) and only was able to do that after the same thing that occured (but differently) in the anime. When everyone was on the same wave link/joined their powers for her to be Super Sailor Moon and to further survive being -inside- of Pharoh 90 as well.

Of course she defeated all her friends there, because she also attacked their bracelets which keeps them alive and whole too. But honestly, I don't have too much of a problem there after all, she lost everything else before hand in witnessing their deaths more graphic and she lost her wings by that point. And she didn't release them from the Galaxy Cauldorn. If I recall, she only called out to the -other- starseeds there and they reacted to her need. Not only that, it was Guardian Cosmos that sent them back at their request.

Quote :

What do you find inconsistent about SuperS Usagi?

And do you not recognise R movie too?

I don't care for how very childish she became compared to her maturity before hand. Like it was going somewhere than when SuperS (and even part of Super) came around, her growth just stalled. (and not to mention I utterly loathe the epsiode with the Glass slipper. manga Usagi would never do that to her boyfriend.) Not only that it just...left a bad taste in my mouth overall.


And no, I don't because there's no manga equivalent to compare it to.

I personally keep the Anime and Manga as seperate universes altogether with the Manga (Sailor V and Sailor Moon Plus Chibiusa's Diaries) as the original universe. Anime as an AU of the original and so on.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   8th June 2013, 7:42 pm

We do have a manga part of the forum and I think this thread would fit better there.

Please watch and think about the right place to post something...before you post.

Moving thread
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th June 2013, 6:00 am

Quote :
And no, I don't because there's no manga equivalent to compare it to.

I personally keep the Anime and Manga as seperate universes altogether with the Manga (Sailor V and Sailor Moon Plus Chibiusa's Diaries) as the original universe. Anime as an AU of the original and so on.

I also keep the universes separate, but for me anime is the original one. And I include in it movies and specials. Movie R especially fits into series continuity.

Quote :

I don't care for how very childish she became compared to her maturity before hand. Like it was going somewhere than when SuperS (and even part of Super) came around, her growth just stalled. (and not to mention I utterly loathe the epsiode with the Glass slipper. manga Usagi would never do that to her boyfriend.)
But Usagi's behaviour was there shown as not right - she feels bad about this, she apologises, her friends are shocked and the whole stuff with daimon happens.
The maturity isn't always behaving perfect, but seeing her mistakes and learning from them.

As far as manga Usagi is concerned, I see her in this arc as worse to Mamoru with the whole Haruka deal - her crush is treated seriously here.

And I don't find manga Usagi so mature in Supers with the whole insisting to buy her caleidoscope and her perfect dream of relationship with Mamoru.

I totally agree that Anime Usagi too is at times immature, but unlike in manga this is usually commented by others. IMO, the anime creators wanted to show that despite being world saviour she is still fifteen year old girls, with some childish qualities.

And I had the impression that at the end of Infinity she reborn the world Hotaru destroyed? And yes, Chibiusa attacked Nemesis with her, and Mamoru supported, but still it would never happen in anime.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th June 2013, 6:57 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:


I also keep the universes separate, but for me anime is the original one. And I include in it movies and specials. Movie R especially fits into series continuity.

I don't keep the anime first, because even though I was exposed to it first, knowing that the manga was made before the show, for me qualifies it as being the original because without it- Sailor Moon the Anime would never exist in the first place.


Quote :


But Usagi's behaviour was there shown as not right - she feels bad about this, she apologises, her friends are shocked and the whole stuff with daimon happens.
The maturity isn't always behaving perfect, but seeing her mistakes and learning from them.

I'm not saying that maturity is acting or behaving perfectly. I just don't even ..get the whole thing with the SuperS anime.
Quote :


As far as manga Usagi is concerned, I see her in this arc as worse to Mamoru with the whole Haruka deal - her crush is treated seriously here.

Her crush wasn't that serious. I mean for a good bit, she was guilty about it and they actually talked about this too. I find it mature for both of them. Seeing as Mamoru isn't one to talk much about his feelings- seeing him and Usagi open up to this possibility of their relationship is pretty nice and handled better than in the Anime.

In the Anime, every time Mamoru even happens to be in the same vicinity of a girl that none of the other main girls know, they automatically start that "OMG IS HE CHEATING? HOW DARETH HE BE NEAR A GURL TAHT'S NOT US!!!!1111!" After the fifty-thousandth time of that, it got old. Real. Fast.
It's more of a gag than an actual moment of concern. Neither he nor Usagi in the anime ever discuss being jealous with each other. Ever.

Yes Usagi -acts- Jealous. She does it a lot. (almost too much to the point on whether I wonder if she trusts Mamoru or not. Then again the Saori Epsiode was almost nice in the fact that she did state she trusted him and everything. But later her behavior contradicts it too in another ep or so.)

But they never had a private moment on screen where he admits to being jealous and she- in ALL seriousness- admits the same. It's always a gag. For me, that's the least desirable thing I've seen in the anime is this motif repeated.

But the girls get a free pass. What. Even.

Quote :


And I don't find manga Usagi so mature in Supers with the whole insisting to buy her caleidoscope and her perfect dream of relationship with Mamoru.

There's nothing wrong with her dream nor is there anything wrong with her (And Chibiusa) wanting the Kaleidoscope. In fact, I liked how it was him that bought it for them because later on these objects have souls. This bit is childish and really, because she doesn't do it too often, it's actually nice to see her do this.

In the anime, she does it often. Especially about the epsiode with the designer. She totally begged him for that outfit and essentially cleaned out his wallet. The outfit doesn't serve any mystical purpose later or anything like that. (other than appear in Stars as one of the outfits she's wearing).

But really in both situations, Mamoru's the one that doesn't mind entirely spending money on her (and Chibiusa). (but it never seems that anime Usagi recognizes giving him a gift or acknowledging his birthday either. A good portion of the time it's all about her needs more than about his. Whereas in the Manga it's more both ways for them.)

Also isn't her dream the same in the Anime as it is in the Manga? She wants to be more grown up and wants to be Mamoru's wife. That's essentially all she really seems to want in both. Given her age, there's nothing wrong with seeing that.

Quote :


I totally agree that Anime Usagi too is at times immature, but unlike in manga this is usually commented by others. IMO, the anime creators wanted to show that despite being world saviour she is still fifteen year old girls, with some childish qualities.

Maybe. But I think they over did it too.

[quote[
And I had the impression that at the end of Infinity she reborn the world Hotaru destroyed? And yes, Chibiusa attacked Nemesis with her, and Mamoru supported, but still it would never happen in anime.[/quote]

Not the world. Just that area because it's the only area that was effected. If it was the world, than like in the SuperS arc, we would've seen the world covered in darkness or something like that.

In the Anime it was the same way. The Senshi and Mamoru supported her and all- as did Chibiusa with her Silver Crystal. In the Anime they weren't going against the planet- Just Wiseman. The animators/screenwriters didn't make them go to Nemesis themselves either. Also, her brooch didn't break as a result of the fight.

Manga, they went to the planet. The result of her, Mamoru, and Chibiusa defeating Wiseman there broke her power items (Her brooch and Scepter).

Though, I prefer the Manga version of events. I find it more interesting that way that it was those three alone, rather them plus the senshi. It implies how great their power is together.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th June 2013, 10:39 am

Quote :
I don't keep the anime first, because even though I was exposed to it first, knowing that the manga was made before the show, for me qualifies it as being the original because without it- Sailor Moon the Anime would never exist in the first place.

IIRC, it was not quite - manga was created for the purpose of being anime material. And wasn't anime actually ending earlier? So it's not so clear?

Quote :
I just don't even ..get the whole thing with the SuperS anime.

SuperS is really quite complex.

Quote :
Especially about the epsiode with the designer. She totally begged him for that outfit and essentially cleaned out his wallet. The outfit doesn't serve any mystical purpose later or anything like that. (other than appear in Stars as one of the outfits she's wearing).

She never asked him for that outfit. It's Mamoru who wanted to buy it and she actually declined his offer, only he insisted. Which was actually great.

And her wearing this outfit has purpose of getting Mr usui back his passion. And IMO in Stars it was meant as a symbol for her longing and loneliness.

Quote :
Also isn't her dream the same in the Anime as it is in the Manga?

I meant the dream when she imagines them both being kids and Mamoru cooking and doing homework for her. She is dissapointed it was just a dream.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th June 2013, 11:47 am

Quote :
Her crush wasn't that serious. I mean for a good bit, she was guilty about it and they actually talked about this too. I find it mature for both of them.

it was serious as it lasted for several chapters. And Usagi was kinda embarassed about it, but it stopped only after Mamoru caught her with Haruka.

Quote :
Not the world. Just that area because it's the only area that was effected.

But didn't Hotaru actually use her world-destroying attack?

Quote :
In the Anime they weren't going against the planet- Just Wiseman.

Which shows great disproportion in power between two versions.

And also in ideology - in anime destruction of planet would be perceived as bad.

Quote :
but it never seems that anime Usagi recognizes giving him a gift or acknowledging his birthday either. A good portion of the time it's all about her needs more than about his. Whereas in the Manga it's more both ways for them.

Actually, IMO in anime it's more both ways. Does in manga she ever save him? In anime she was nearly suffocated for him, has her heart ripped and run barefoot through snow and thorns to save him. I don't recall her buying him anything in neither version, but in anime she bakes him cookies. And in Stars she writes to him constantly despite no replies, whereas in manga she does it only once, in response to a card presumably from him (in fact, Seiya).

Anime also more develops her feelings because of his orphanhood - especially R movie, you don't recognise.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th June 2013, 12:20 pm

Quote :
Actually, IMO in anime it's more both ways. Does in manga she ever save him? In anime she was nearly suffocated for him, has her heart ripped and run barefoot through snow and thorns to save him. I don't recall her buying him anything in neither version, but in anime she bakes him cookies. And in Stars she writes to him constantly despite no replies, whereas in manga she does it only once, in response to a card presumably from him (in fact, Seiya).


But that's not entirely true, the relationship between Mamoru and Usagi isn't even well developed in the anime. Those examples you're giving are the few demonstrations of love we get in 5 seasons. While in the manga they're constantly supporting each other.
I can't recall if there's an specific moment where Usagi directly saves Mamoru in the manga, but that doesn't mean that she loves him less than her anime counterpart.
Also, Mamoru only bought her that outfit because she was being really noise at the store. Yes, he later was happy because she was happy and even though it was a lovely moment, it wasn't either something that he wanted to do initially.

Quote :
And I don't find manga Usagi so mature in Supers with the whole insisting to buy her caleidoscope and her perfect dream of relationship with Mamoru.

Having a dream about a perfect relationship makes you less mature? I don't think so >.< In every version of Sailor Moon, that's essentially Usagi's dream and there' nothing wrong about it. I don't see why the kaleidoscope thing is bad either, she had A LOT of those moments in the anime.

I really like the StarS arc in the anime, because of the Starlights in the most part, but Usagi's behavior there is super immature. I mean, it's like "Girl, you've been saving the world several times before, and yet you can't pull yourself together and defeat the person who killed EVERY single one you loved?". For me, that's the perfect example of how Usagi didn't grow up, either as a Sailor Senshi or human being.
She didn't do anything to stop her friends to be murdered, half of those deaths even in vain.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th June 2013, 12:35 pm

Quote :
Seeing as Mamoru isn't one to talk much about his feelings- seeing him and Usagi open up to this possibility of their relationship is pretty nice and handled better than in the Anime.

In R movie he opens to talk about his parents, so it's shame you don't recognise it.

And I'm not great fan of Usagi's jealousy, but the fact it's just a gag and nobody treats it seriously makes it better a little. Mamoru, girls and even Chibiusa are just exasperated with it. The only case, IIRC, when others took it seriously is Ami with mechanic girl - and it's explained quicky and Ami apologises for it.

And I love that anime Mamoru isn't jealous - it's so subversive.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   10th June 2013, 12:37 pm

Quote :
Usagi's behavior there is super immature. I mean, it's like "Girl, you've been saving the world several times before, and yet you can't pull yourself together and defeat the person who killed EVERY single one you loved?". For me, that's the perfect example of how Usagi didn't grow up, either as a Sailor Senshi or human being.
She didn't do anything to stop her friends to be murdered, half of those deaths even in vain.

IMO, the anime creators intended Usagi's rising above fight as showing her maturing.

And for the matter - she really could stop any deaths - in anime she is weaker than Galaxia.

Quote :
Having a dream about a perfect relationship makes you less mature?

Not having that dream, but the fact that her vision of perfect relationship consosts of Mamoru making her breakfast and doing homework.

Quote :
But that's not entirely true, the relationship between Mamoru and Usagi isn't even well developed in the anime. Those examples you're giving are the few demonstrations of love we get in 5 seasons. While in the manga they're constantly supporting each other

I think that in anime it's much better developed. They get more moments, especially in civilian forms - in manga they are mostly Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask. And in anime they are also constantly supporting each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   11th June 2013, 6:23 pm

There is so much awesomeness that I'll have to read it another time because I only have a few minutes to spare.

So I'll leave on the same note as Schwarzenegger with- I'll be back!
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   11th June 2013, 6:59 pm

Quote :
IMO, the anime creators intended Usagi's rising above fight as showing her maturing.

And for the matter - she really could stop any deaths - in anime she is weaker than Galaxia.

Well, yes, I can see your point. But I think the anime could have handled it a lot better than that. I saw it more like a lack of courage rather than a mature behavior. Thought, I don't prefer the manga ending either, since everything happened just way too fast for my taste.

And I didn't mean that she could have saved them with her power, but she didn't even try .-. That's what bothers me. That, and the Inners sacrifice... it was their duty to protect Usagi, it wasn't something the Starlights had to do.

Quote :
Not having that dream, but the fact that her vision of perfect relationship consosts of Mamoru making her breakfast and doing homework.

I didn't take that too seriously...after all, it was literally JUST a dream. Besides, Mamoru has the same dream, and I don't see anyone calling him immature. (The dream of being with Usa, I mean)

Quote :
I think that in anime it's much better developed. They get more moments, especially in civilian forms - in manga they are mostly Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask. And in anime they are also constantly supporting each other.

I guess we just have different perspectives of it ^^ I still prefer the manga, 'cause I see a much deeper connection between them there and a better communication, which lacks their anime counterparts.

Quote :
There is so much awesomeness that I'll have to read it another time because I only have a few minutes to spare.

So I'll leave on the same note as Schwarzenegger with- I'll be back!

Haha, I hope you do!
you've been missed in this thread ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   12th June 2013, 10:21 am

On the note of male senshi, I like the idea but I do not like the outfits based on the Sailor Senshi fukus because it just looks tacky in my personal opinion. Like frilly male spandex. I'd prefer is they were dressed more like Tuxedo Kamen, or Prince's like Endymoin or even the Navy Miliatry officers because the outfits they are normally drawn in makes them look like the gender confused Zoicite or Fish-eye lol...

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When it comes to the Starlights.

Manga- Girls that crossdress as men.

Anime- From what I can recall, I don't remember an episode that claimed in their civilian forms they were girls and the male forms were just a disguise. In senshi form they are female, in civilian form they are male. They are both in the anime, and unless someone can reference an episode where they said they disguised themselves as males and not "male pop stars/Idols" then it is safe to assume for anime canon they are both male and female, since Tin Naoko knew of their senshi form, not their original civilian form so for all we know, anime-wise, they really could be male. They aren't exactly earthlings lol...

When it comes to the whole "not having anything below the waist" when they transform, it's still safe to say that they have the whole package. After all, Luna did bath with Yaten and she sure seemed to like it lol. When Usagi was naked, she didn't have graphic details down below or even on her breasts because those graphic details are more for ecchi like anime and manga, and Sailor Moon is a romance with mature themes but not ecchi lol...

So I'm sure they are still anatomically correct.

---

When it comes to Haruka, she loves Michiru. Michiru and Haruka are like soul-mates. Haruka does seem to have romantic feelings for Usagi, however that doesn't mean she loves Michiru any less.

Haruka kissing Usagi would have nothing to do with the mission, it was simply something she wanted to do and so she did it. She had tried to do it another time as well.

I doubt Michiru would see it as cheating and I dont think Haruka did it to keep it a secret or anything or even thought of it as cheating. In the real world, depending on personal beliefs, I would think it as cheating, but this is the manga with two fictional characters that have beliefs that point towards an open and understanding relationship and don't seem to have a problem with it. Haruka is a flirt with girls, but she only kissed Usagi and she's only involved with Michiru. Even in the real world there are relationships like that, especially when it comes to girlxgirl or guyxguy. The majority of relationships like those are open relationships, not all, but most, especially factoring with that age group as well.

In cases like these, our own personal opinions about cheating aside, to each their own, something that offends us might not offend someone else. Something we see as cheating, might not be cheating to someone else.

Their mission had nothing to do with making Usagi and Mamoru jealous or kissing. There mission was to take care of Pharoh 90, Mistress 9 and Hotaru/Sailor Saturn. They wanted to do it on their own to PROTECT the princess AND the inners(Very unlike their anime counterparts) and it was all because they loved them and they wanted to help when in the Silver Millennia they were unable to even be on the same planet.

Then again, this is manga and anime and not all kissing(Even kisses on the lips) are romantic by nature. Haruka could have kissed Usagi on the lips the same way a mother kisses her baby on the lips. Love doesn't always have to be romantic. This was Haruka and Michiru's first time being able to be around them, fight for and with them. It was probably so over whelming, her emotions lead her to kiss her.

When it comes to Haruka and Michiru and the Starlights and lesbian feelings, my brother was gay(I say was because he passed away) and I know quite a few people who are in same sex relationships or are bisexual. Most people I know who are in love don't view it as gay or lesbian or bisexual.

The way they put it is you love who you love, regardless of gender. If you end up loving a girl despite being a girl, you love that person not because of their gender but because of who they are as an individual, as a person. Yeah everyone has preferences and some only like girls but it isn't always like that for everyone. You should totally check out the manga Girlfriends to see what I mean.

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I don't agree with Cosmos being perfect because Sailor Cosmos was very far from perfect. She was a character to show that Usagi isn't perfect and she too will fall one day and she will run away from everything she was to destroy everything in order to be reminded by her past self when she was strongest that she can still save everything. The Lambda power, the power to lose everything so that she can save everything. Cosmos forgot that, Sailor Moon had always unconsciously known that. Don't give up = hope. When you give up, you have no hope.

She had the motto, "Kill the many, because the one wasn't worth everyone else living. Wasn't worth an awful future so she became judge, jury and executioner to the extreme."

Total annihilation of everything just so Sailor Chaos wouldn't be born because she decided that was worth losing everything else.

Neo Queen Serenity couldn't bring herself to kill and as a person responsible for the masses, it's her responsibility to sentence a mass murder to death. She couldn't because despite having power, he was human and she didn't want to be responsible for killing a human even though as Queen, that is her responsibility. She didn't, she banished him and instead thousands more died and a tragedy forced her daughter to flee to the past and even do horrible things.

She had the motto, "It's wrong to kill even one if it meant the safety of the many, because she didn't want to do her job which is to look after the many, and didn't want to become judge, jury and executioner at all."

As Queen it was her responsibility to protect the masses, and it's just life, reality that not every single individual can be saved. It's impossible. She had forsaken the safety of the many because of wanting to save the one.

As Sailor Moon, she wanted peace but she fought. Her motto, "You fight to protect the ones you love. You do the best that you can, you try to save them all, and even if you can't, there is still hope for the future."

Even if it meant killing her own friends, which had been destroyed by Galaxia and Chaos, she DID, even if it meant killing people, the Akayashi sisters, she did because she wasn't going to sacrifice everyone just to save them.

-

The anime might have been that idealistic but the manga most definitely was not.

Usagi in the manga even killed Mamoru when he had been evil because she knew she HAD to and she intended to kill herself right after because it is wrong even if it has to be done.

Police, Military, these things happen in the real world. If a cop is in front of a guy holding a gun to someones head, he has to make the choice on whether to save that hostage or save the gunman. Sometimes you can save both, but that isn't always the case. That's just life, no matter how sad it is...

Usagi in the manga was hardly perfect but yes, it did center around her, it was after all titled Sailor Moon for a reason, but she wasn't a Mary-Sue. She was a crybaby, she tripped, she was not lady-like at all, she ate a lot, she slept a lot, she wasn't good at school work.

Each of the other senshi had amazing talents that surpassed normal human standards. Usagi didn't have that, does that make them Mary-sue?

Each of the senshi could control their powers without the use of objects, they were skilled in fighting, they always landed on their feet, they were powerful in their own elements. Usagi had to use weapons in order to fight, if she didn't have a weapon, if it got knocked away she was screwed! She might have been more powerful, but she was still the most vulnerable and still the weakest. Does that make the senshi Mary-sues since they outshine her in this as well?

I'd be more upset if she had no character development and didn't grow as the manga continued.  All the characters did.

Rei was mean, Minako was a snob, Ami was shy, Makoto was a tom-boy. They also grew with character development. Rei softened, Minako was humbled, Ami opened up, Makoto's girly-side really shined.

I never understood how people could call Usagi Mary-sue because she was the least like in the entire manga to be a Mary-sue.

Sure she had a big heart, but technically, so did Minako, so did Naru, so did many many characters and in the manga and even anime, despite Usagi's "big heart" she could still be mean, childish, selfish, jealous, judgmental, she still fought.

I'd hardly call that perfect but just because she started changed doesn't make her perfect, it makes her human. I'd be more disappointed if she DIDN'T grow up, didn't change and the change wasn't drastic in either manga or anime. Considering everything she and the others went to, the development seemed timely and accurate to me.

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As for Mamoru and Usagi, the development of their relationship in the manga was amazing, afterall that was a big part of Naoko's story, and the anime changed this as well as other things. The anime definitely focused far more on the girls, on the fights and on their friendships instead of on Usagi and Mamoru.

This is why their relationship just didn't seem as wonderful as the manga made it. After the first season, the chemistry was so lacking it was nearly non-existent but that's simply because the anime didn't focus on them, or romance, instead the MAJORITY of the anime revolved around Usagi and the senshi and the fight of the day while the manga revolved around Usagi and Mamoru, the senshi and their lives plus their battles. There wasn't a battle every single day in the manga as there was in the anime which left a lot of room for all the characters development, they friendship and of course, more romantic developments.

---

YEY I missed being here too Very Happy

Boy that was a lot of writing, you guys sure had a lot of awesome discussions! it makes me so happy!!!

On a side note, what the heck is wrong with the reply and editing boxes? It's all messed up Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   12th June 2013, 1:47 pm

^ I pretty much agree with everything you said, especially this:

"The way they put it is you love who you love, regardless of gender. If you end up loving a girl despite being a girl, you love that person not because of their gender but because of who they are as an individual, as a person. Yeah everyone has preferences and some only like girls but it isn't always like that for everyone. "

I couldn't have said any better ^^

Though, I still think that the StarS arc in the manga makes Usagi look a bit too perfect. I can't speak for Cosmos, since we don't much a thing about her and everything falls into speculation anyways, but (even if I don't consider Usagi a Mary-Sue, especially 'cause she DOES have flaws) everything came down to easy for Sailor Moon at the end. 

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Yes, I know! we're already in page 3 

And the editing box it's a forumotion thing >.< I honestly don't know why they make this changes, but it's a beta test anyways Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   13th June 2013, 8:01 am

Yeah this new reply box is killing me lol
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   15th June 2013, 1:08 pm

Ai No Senshi wrote:
I saw it more like a lack of courage rather than a mature behavior.


I didn't - cause she didn't run away and she faced Galaxia, only she didn't want to fight any more. She believed that fight is bad and decided to avoid it.

Ai No Senshi wrote:
it was their duty to protect Usagi, it wasn't something the Starlights had to do


I think it was the point of this plot - Starlights didn't have duty to protect Usagi, yet they did - because they chose to. it showed the bond and solidarity between people from distant places. We already saw Inners protecting Usagi many times.

Ai No Senshi wrote:
I didn't take that too seriously...after all, it was literally JUST a dream.


It's not her wanting to be with Mamoru that I find problematic - it's her literally seeing them as two kids and him totally devoting himself to her. And she was dissappointed it was just a dream.

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
They are both in the anime, and unless someone can reference an episode where they said they disguised themselves as males and not "male pop stars/Idols" then it is safe to assume for anime canon they are both male and female


Princess Kakuyuu tells Seiya they changed forms on Earth and Seiya states it was just to look for her. Seiya also tells Usagi that his time as Seiya will be soon over. So their true form is female, and male - just Earth disguise.

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
Something we see as cheating, might not be cheating to someone else.


True - we don't know, what Ha&Mi consider cheating, so for Michiru it may be ok - But Usagi and Mamoru do, and we debating Usagi.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   16th June 2013, 12:36 am

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
I don't agree with Cosmos being perfect because Sailor Cosmos was very far from perfect. She was a character to show that Usagi isn't perfect and she too will fall one day and she will run away from everything she was to destroy everything in order to be reminded by her past self when she was strongest that she can still save everything. The Lambda power, the power to lose everything so that she can save everything. Cosmos forgot that, Sailor Moon had always unconsciously known that. Don't give up = hope. When you give up, you have no hope.



I didn't say Cosmos was perfect - she was shown as wrong, in order to make present Sailor Moon perfect - as you say, Sailor Moon reminds Sailor Cosmos her true duty. She is capable of accoplishing, where Sailor Cosmos fell.

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
The anime might have been that idealistic but the manga most definitely was not.



Which is great part of reason for my preference of anime. This idealism was for me essential part of Sailor Moon.

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
Usagi in the manga was hardly perfect but yes, it did center around her, it was after all titled Sailor Moon for a reason, but she wasn't a Mary-Sue. She was a crybaby, she tripped, she was not lady-like at all, she ate a lot, she slept a lot, she wasn't good at school work.

Which after the first arc, barely appeared in manga. Yet in anime was shown heavily to the end.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   16th June 2013, 4:56 am

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
Each of the senshi could control their powers without the use of objects, they were skilled in fighting, they always landed on their feet, they were powerful in their own elements. Usagi had to use weapons in order to fight, if she didn't have a weapon, if it got knocked away she was screwed! She might have been more powerful, but she was still the most vulnerable and still the weakest. Does that make the senshi Mary-sues since they outshine her in this as well?


Other senshi do something just in first and Dreams season. In others they are useless.
And is in manga Usagi ever weaponless? Because anime yes, did use that vulnerability.

 

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
Rei was mean, Minako was a snob, Ami was shy, Makoto was a tom-boy. They also grew with character development. Rei softened, Minako was humbled, Ami opened up, Makoto's girly-side really shined.


Rei and Mako do get some development, but in anime better. Ami's in manga though was barely existent - while in anime she shone. Minako I never saw as snobbish? In neither continuity.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   16th June 2013, 9:02 am

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
As for Mamoru and Usagi, the development of their relationship in the manga was amazing, afterall that was a big part of Naoko's story, and the anime changed this as well as other things. The anime definitely focused far more on the girls, on the fights and on their friendships instead of on Usagi and Mamoru.

This is why their relationship just didn't seem as wonderful as the manga made it. After the first season, the chemistry was so lacking it was nearly non-existent but that's simply because the anime didn't focus on them, or romance, instead the MAJORITY of the anime revolved around Usagi and the senshi and the fight of the day while the manga revolved around Usagi and Mamoru, the senshi and their lives plus their battles. There wasn't a battle every single day in the manga as there was in the anime which left a lot of room for all the characters development, they friendship and of course, more romantic developments.
 Anime got romantic developments manga lacked - especially in R season, where firstly they reconnected in Doom tree arc, and then there was a breakup, with many romantic scenes. In S and SuperS they got many daily interactions. Even in Stars, when Mamoru was absent, their love still felt alive due to Usagi's longing. And their chemistry was perfect.

And manga seriously lacked in character development - in anime each girl got 1-3 episodes every season. While manga was more about Usagi and then Chibiusa.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   16th June 2013, 9:44 am

Actually, Ami had better development in the manga for me than in the anime.  Her home life was shown better there and we understood her fears much more accurately and her feelings- Especially towards her parents.

I felt Ami lacked that in the Anime. Parents are hardly ever mentioned and we're never shown where she lived much if at all.

To be honest, I liked the character development in the manga x200 better than the anime.  I liked the realism and yes, Usagi -has- been without a weapon in the manga.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   16th June 2013, 12:13 pm

Did Usagi without weapon happen in Stars? Or was it another occurence?
 
Ami's home was shown in anime a few times (in her special and episodes of R and SuperS) and her mother was frequently mentioned. Situation with father was also presented in her SuperS episode.
I like Anime-Ami having teenage girl side - fangirling Starlights, liking boys and writing poetry.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   16th June 2013, 1:00 pm

Meh, I wasn't crazy about her thing in the SuperS espiode.  Mostly because her father situtation should've been mentioned earlier- for one- and it was a plot point for her character (as well as her mother's appearance) in the manga.  Seeing Ami's fears that her mother would get remarried and forget about her too- and her fears regarding her father.   It's explored a lot better and deeper in the manga vs the Anime where it was just almost unimportant mentioning.

Same thing with Makoto and her loss of parents.  In fact, we don't have much of a good idea why Makoto lives alone or what happened to her parents as it's never really explained much in the anime. We also don't get other little details that would, seeing as the anime is over 200 eps, explain her character better and gave it depth. (Like her fear of airplanes, that her parents died on one. and all.)

and yes, Usagi was without a weapon in the Stars Manga because it was broken in half at one point.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   19th June 2013, 10:22 pm

So much has been written again I love it! I'll come comment later though, too much for me to sit down and write it all out right now but I will be back!

YEY for being back to work and feeling a bit better! BOO it means less time online lol :/
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   22nd June 2013, 1:52 am

@Ktenshi wrote:
Meh, I wasn't crazy about her thing in the SuperS espiode.  Mostly because her father situtation should've been mentioned earlier- for one- and it was a plot point for her character (as well as her mother's appearance) in the manga.  Seeing Ami's fears that her mother would get remarried and forget about her too- and her fears regarding her father.   It's explored a lot better and deeper in the manga vs the Anime where it was just almost unimportant mentioning.
I liked it in anime that they didn't play it for angst - it seemed to me quite original. Anime-Ami isn't close to her father, but he can still affect her positively.
And manga-Ami fears are IMO quite selfish - why shouldn't her mother find a boyfriend?

Anime didn't indeed say about Mako's parents - I guess that they believed two tragically orphaned main characters would be a stretch. Which I agree with.

I looked trough the end of Infinity Arc and it said that the world is about to be destroyed and that Usagi supported by Holy Grail is capable of saving the planet.

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