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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   22nd June 2013, 10:44 am

I would personally like to thank you all for being so open to each others opinions, and being respectful! Keep it up everyone!

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   22nd June 2013, 12:59 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:

I liked it in anime that they didn't play it for angst - it seemed to me quite original. Anime-Ami isn't close to her father, but he can still affect her positively.
And manga-Ami fears are IMO quite selfish - why shouldn't her mother find a boyfriend?

That's not selfish. Actually it's a very -real- and very relatable situation. She's fourteen years old at this point, almost fifteen. Also, she's not afraid of her mother dating people. She's afraid her mother will LEAVE her and forget about her once she has someone else. This is realistic and is actually a good point- Character development. She also fears not being useful to Usagi and the others and that what she does won't be enough. I think that's a good thing to bring up.

It makes her position in awakening to her next power level all that more triumphant. She knows it's an illusion, she knows her mother would -never- do that even if she got with another person. She wishes she was closer to her father and that he would come back, even though she knows he won't- and she becomes ok with that.

This is a stronger portrayal of Ami, in my opinion, than her anime counterpart. Her counterpart goes through some rough stuff (other..than..new person blues.. some rumors..but thats about it.) but it's never really personal. Yeah, Urawa bit was sort of personal. Her decision to go to Germany was somewhat that.. but it's never Family-personal.

We don't get a good look at her family life.

In the manga, we do and it adds a level to her character that makes it more complex. Kids in her situtation could very well relate to her and she becomes something of an even -better- role model than the Anime version. I find her more sympathetic and a character I can empathize with. There's literally nothing wrong with her in the manga version because she has more insecurities than her anime counter part and rose above it better.

Quote :


Anime didn't indeed say about Mako's parents - I guess that they believed two tragically orphaned main characters would be a stretch. Which I agree with.
I don't think so. I think it really confuses people who aren't new to the japanese culture and have no idea -why- Makoto lives alone. Also no mention of her parents is also proof she's an orphan. Honestly, there's nothing wrong if she tragically didn't have parents either- as long as it's different from Mamoru's.

In fact, the Anime had a chance to play up the relationship between the two because of the common ground. It's a missed opportunity that I think both Naoko and Toei(script writers and all) missed. I always felt that Makoto got the shaft on that one, but PGSM made up for it sort of. (not really. It's rather disappointing.)

But I felt that the Anime missed the boat there with MAkoto and her backstory. Because, seriously, what is Makoto afraid of in the Anime? Nothing. No, for real, she has no real problems or..really anything else. When I think of Makoto, I don't get the sense (anime wise) that she has any real issues that sets her apart from the others that wouldn't be remedied within less than a month. Also, did the anime ever explain why she wears a different uniform than everyone else? (I don't remember to be honest, but I remember the Manga address this and her hair, which is naturally curly but they assumed she had a perm-which is a no no)

I remember Manga Makoto better-
*Fears airplanes
*Parents died in one, thus the reason for the fear.
*Actual dream is to get married and have a nice family and business
*Is Not Boy Crazy.

In this, again, the Manga- for me- reigns supreme for character development.

Quote :


I looked trough the end of Infinity Arc and it said that the world is about to be destroyed and that Usagi supported by Holy Grail is capable of saving the planet.

She's capable, but that doesn't mean that's what she -did-. What she did was revive that section that was destroyed. When Usagi did this, Pharaoh 90 was already defeated by Sailor Saturn and Pluto. Saturn destroyed him, Pluto locked both them away in the dimension/space that 90 came from.

Usagi only revived it. Just like in the beginning when she awakened as Princess Serenity and had no control over the Silver Crystal and it's light. Which revived the Shitennou briefly and healed someone's (no so serious) illness.

In the Infinity arc, she has a bit more control and not to mention she has the power of everyone else, to support her which is in the Holy Grail, which is actually the whole reason the grail even appeared.

(Yet another boat I think the Anime missed on, but that's just me. for Storytelling, I'm completely a Manga purist followed secondly by PGSM with Musical and the Anime dead last. )
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   23rd June 2013, 6:11 am

So if Usagi just rebuilt one section and the world was never destroyed - why is everybody freaking about world end? Why does Mamoru call Usagi a Messiah? Why did Hotaru die because of her attack?

The great problem with manga is it being confusing - it's second time it's debated here what actually happened - not preference, not interpretation. First time with cats in Stars.
Besides. Usagi in anime isn't capable of reviving anything - the Mugen school is still in ashes - so the point that manga Usagi is still much more powerful, stands.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   23rd June 2013, 8:08 am

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
So if Usagi just rebuilt one section and the world was never destroyed - why is everybody freaking about world end? Why does Mamoru call Usagi a Messiah? Why did Hotaru die because of her attack?

Ah, lets review here- People were freaking out because Saturn has -not- awoken at this point. When she does, they STILL believe that she'll end the world. It turns out she doesn't. It's rather clear at this point. That and the nature of Saturn's powers isn't that complicated. She died because of her attack- that's just how it is. After all, at that point she was locked away in the same place as Pharaoh 90. She would've died regardless because of the original origin of it was a space where everything was dying in the first place and now because of her attack, it's definitely going to die.

Also, people seem to forget the 'rebirth' part of Saturn's title. Senshi of Death and rebirth. She clears the way for rebirth of a place (tying back into the mythology of Cronus.). And since she has an ultimate planet-inducing death attack, it makes sense that she dies if she performs it. The same way Usagi dies if she uses all her energy to save a place, in the anime.

Lets not forget that she, Sailor Saturn, ended the Silver Millennium with only Pluto being saved from that (for some reason or another.)

The reason Mamoru and everyone called her the Messiah, is because up until that point- everyone was having visions of a Messiah. It's been a running theme. "Oh no, the Messiah of 'destruction' ". It's hardly confusing. They ALL have this vision of a woman standing on top of a ruined section and they perceived it as the world being in ruins.

When Usagi transforms right there on top of the -same place where their vision stood of a MESSIAH- their visions suddenly make sense and Mamoru speculates (there was a question mark after he did say "Are you the Messiah?") if it is Usagi.

It's not confusing. At least I never found that part confusing at all.


Quote :

The great problem with manga is it being confusing - it's second time it's debated here what actually happened - not preference, not interpretation. First time with cats in Stars.

Not really. The Cats weren't dead in Stars. It's very clear that they -didn't die-. The only confusion with the Manga about Artemis, Luna and Diana is what happened to them between the gap after the fight and when Usagi gets older and gets married. That's about it. From what we see of the future, everything is put to right and the cats apparently can speak again as far as we know.

But this is like debating Sailor Cosmos- it's meant to be ambiguous and if people don't like the non-answer, they'll make up one instead that they can all agree about.

Quote :

Besides. Usagi in anime isn't capable of reviving anything - the Mugen school is still in ashes - so the point that manga Usagi is still much more powerful, stands.

Usagi is capable of reviving ORGANIC life. Buildings are not organic. She did not, in the manga, put buildings back together. In fact, she never had, except that one instance of the Moon Kingdom being revived. Beyond that, she never preformed such feats again that we know of. The destruction that we see at Mugen was contained by the Outers, originally. However, when you toss Hotaru in the mix of all this, it actually brought forth Saturn.


Even if you bring up the point of Neo Queen Serenity in the future, in the manga, 'rebuilding' things, there's no evidence that she restored buildings as well as people. We have no way of knowing one way or another. As far as I know, she never did and never brought anyone back from the dead there either.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   23rd June 2013, 12:32 pm

Sailor Pluto says NQS revived her and sent her back for the mission - but it's somehow inconsistent, as she could not do this in Black Moon arc. In first arc there are also Generals revived - but they immediately turn into stones. And everybody in the final.

@Ktenshi wrote:
The destruction that we see at Mugen was contained by the Outers, originally.


But they weren't able to keep up the barrier and the darkness was said to spread in the Earth?

@Ktenshi wrote:
When Usagi transforms right there on top of the -same place where their vision stood of a MESSIAH- their visions suddenly make sense and Mamoru speculates (there was a question mark after he did say "Are you the Messiah?") if it is Usagi.



In my translation it was exclamation mark, not question. And if Usagi wasn't reviving or rebuilding -what was she doing?

@Ktenshi wrote:
The Cats weren't dead in Stars. It's very clear that they -didn't die-. The only confusion with the Manga about Artemis, Luna and Diana is what happened to them between the gap after the fight and when Usagi gets older and gets married. That's about it. From what we see of the future, everything is put to right and the cats apparently can speak again as far as we know.

For me it is clear the did die. There was never clear answer how future and time travel work, but them being in future can't be an argument - it would mean nobody was ever at risk.

As for Mako in anime - yes, she definitively explains her uniforn in her first episode - and in SuperS we are actually shown her in flashback in previous school. Mako has fears about being socially accepted despite her reputation, about finding love despite not being feminine enough, about not being strong in fight and failing. It's incomparable with her manga fear of planes which is just a quirk.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   23rd June 2013, 1:31 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
Sailor Pluto says NQS revived her and sent her back for the mission - but it's somehow inconsistent, as she could not do this in Black Moon arc. In first arc there are also Generals revived - but they immediately turn into stones. And everybody in the final.

Pluto was sent back to the Time Gate DURING the silver Millennium. I'm specifically pointing to that bit. That has nothing to do with Neo Queen Serenity there. After the others were killed, Pluto, herself, was at the Time Gate, again. She died int he Black Moon arc and was revived by Neo Queen Serenity and sent back to restart her life. We actually don't know -why- NQ Serenity did that, other than to assume she wanted Pluto to have a good life.

After all, Usagi, when she became 'Queen' in the SuperS arc- did the same thing to the Asteroid senshi. There's nothing inconsistent there.

also, didn't I say 'Revive Organic life'? As a Princess at that point and time with the Shitennou, Usagi couldn't focus nor control that power. That changes in the Infinite arc where she's -learned- to control and focus that power. As a Queen, wouldn't it stand to reason that she's stronger? Cause.. you know.. Queen is a step up in power from princess and assumes more respnsibilities and basically has more power.

How is this hard to understand?

Quote :


But they weren't able to keep up the barrier and the darkness was said to spread in the Earth?




In my translation it was exclamation mark, not question. And if Usagi wasn't reviving or rebuilding -what was she doing?

Dude, it didn't spread. Because Saturn stopped it after Super Sailor Moon tried to help by releasing the Holy Grail inside. Whether the Holy Grail's powers helped or not, is up to the reader to interpret. but least to say, Saturn basically Pwned Pharaoh 90 and it doesn't spread beyond Mugen- At. All.

the most that happened is that it got dark in Tokyo. That's it.

Mine has a question mark. Blame the company. It's got nothing to do with the actual story content.

Usagi only. revives. Organic. Life. People died -during- the battle because they around that area. The Area is rather large. I doubt everyone escaped the repercussions of the battle. (Hey, something the manga did that the Anime didn't do- show the effects of the battle on other people who got hurt and actually died. )


Quote :


For me it is clear the did die. There was never clear answer how future and time travel work, but them being in future can't be an argument - it would mean nobody was ever at risk.

I'm trying to figure out how the heck did they die, when in the VERY next few pages we see Usagi having Kakyuu look at them and THEN give them to her mother. How did they die? No, for real. How? Cause you lost me there.

The cats never died. I have no idea how you got to that conclusion.

Uh.. it can be because they -were- in the future and Diana never disappeared. Diana is in the same position as Chibiusa. If her parents died, she would've disappeared. Diana never did even after her parents were injured. In the future, we can very well see that all the senshi (who have died, at this point in the past) have all collapsed and their starseeds are glowing.

If their past selves have died- then why haven't their bodies disappeared? Because there's the chance that they were actually saved.



Quote :

As for Mako in anime - yes, she definitively explains her uniforn in her first episode - and in SuperS we are actually shown her in flashback in previous school. Mako has fears about being socially accepted despite her reputation, about finding love despite not being feminine enough, about not being strong in fight and failing. It's incomparable with her manga fear of planes which is just a quirk.


Dude.. FEAR is never a quirk. That's just.. no.. not even going to discuss that. Lets keep this a agree to disagree because I have issues with things that scare people on a very psychological level as. a. quirk.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   24th June 2013, 12:26 pm

They never went deep psychologically into that fear, not shown it seriously affecting her. So as far as her character development is concerned - it's just a quirk.

@Ktenshi wrote:
I'm trying to figure out how the heck did they die, when in the VERY next few pages we see Usagi having Kakyuu look at them and THEN give them to her mother. How did they die? No, for real. How? Cause you lost me there.

The cats never died. I have no idea how you got to that conclusion.

Not after she she gives them to her mother. I mean they were killed when Usagi was on her way to Galaxia castle.
Also Chibiusa mentions their tragic fate after she comes with the quartet for 30th century.

@Ktenshi wrote:
She died int he Black Moon arc and was revived by Neo Queen Serenity and sent back to restart her life.
Which is what I regard inconsistent - why wasn't she immediately revived in Black Moon Arc?

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   3rd July 2013, 5:35 pm

I'm gonna try and write as much as I can tonight, I'm not in the theorizing and debating mind set tonight (I haven't been for a while but I feel I've put this off a tad too long)

The manga didn't really end all that ambiguously. 

We SAW what the future was going to be like in the R saga. Crystal Tokyo, Neo Queen Serenity, King Endymoin, Chibiusa, Diana and the senshi.

Sailor Pluto died in the R saga and Neo Queen Serenity sent her to the 21st century to be reborn and live a new life WITH them and AWAY from duty. Diana took over the position of Guardian the gates while Pluto is away. It's become a shared duty, since Diana can do it I imagine any of them can and it's become a shared thing.

She did not send her back to the Silver Millennium, that wouldn't have changed anything because the Moon Kingdom still perished and they all were reborn. Neo Queen Serenity wouldn't be cruel enough to send her to a time just so she could die AGAIN and then be reborn. That wouldn't make much sense, and it'd be cruel.

Chibiusa went back to her time, as did the amazons so therefore Crystal Tokyo exists. Therefore the timeline has been saved, it was not changed.

Timeline:

Spoiler:
 



The cats did not die. It was an illusion, I think I posted the links and what not a few pages back. The whole reason they're bodies and everyone's bodies were disappearing in the future was because the future itself was in jeopardy of disappearing. Chibiusa was mentioning what was happening to everyone in the future. The cats remained on Earth with Ikuko, Sailor Lethe and Sailor Mnemosyne did not go to Earth and grab them and then go all the way back. 

The swing set Usagi was sitting on was also and Illusion.

Like all the other times they fought an enemy. This was just the strongest one, yet. It's not the first time the future had become unstable. Chibiusa disappeared a few times. Every time they won and lived, that future was returned.

In the manga, the senshi's development was far superior in my opinion. I know some people disagree and that is fine. I do know they went more in depth in the manga with Ami's father being absent and Makoto's fear of planes and the loss of her parents and how she lives all alone by herself and has her hobbies to distract her from those sad thoughts. 

Ami's First Love movie special gave the anime a bit more depth to her but I mus remind everyone that movie adaption was already a manga special and each senshi had one but only Ami got the movie so...

Minako had plenty of character development, she had her own manga prequel lol^^

If I missed anything that was being discussed just lemme know, I'm a tad tired and not feeling all that well sorry u.u
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   4th July 2013, 12:36 pm

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
Chibiusa was mentioning what was happening to everyone in the future.

Chibiusa mentions what happened in 30th century a few pages before - here she tells that she came to 20th century and cats met terrible fate. Then Usagi realises that it wasn't just illusion.
Cats died.

@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
Sailor Pluto died in the R saga and Neo Queen Serenity sent her to the 21st century to be reborn and live a new life WITH them and AWAY from duty
The question is - why didn't she do it in Black Moon arc, when Pluto died?
And the time travel stuff is very inconsistent.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   4th July 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote :

Quote :
 Chibiusa mentions what happened in 30th century a few pages before - here she tells that she came to 20th century and cats met terrible fate. Then Usagi realises that it wasn't just illusion.
Cats died.


You're missing the point. If they died in the future, it's the future that is in jeopardy and it wasn't just the cats, all the senshi and her father were all fading because the past was in trouble. the cats did not die and we covered that in this forum already.

For instance, the cats acted like normal cats because they were meowing and smiling and didn't seem to have any problems and if they weren't just an illusion they wouldn't have been smiling, they were clear across the galaxy safe at home where Usagi had left them BEFORE she even took the journey to get to where Lethe and Mnem were, so it's unlikely they just up and teleported to them and brought them back, therefore, like the swing set they were an illusion.

Please refer to the first page of this thread. I posted scans about this already. They did not die, it was the future that was in jeopardy and everyone, not just the cats, were being threatened from the circumstances in the past and THAT was the reason why Chibiusa went into the past, not just because the cats but ALL of their futures were becoming unstable due to Chaos. It's not the first time a senshi had a vision that wasn't meant to be taken literally but as a warning to do something about it.

Quote :
The question is - why didn't she do it in Black Moon arc, when Pluto died?
Quote :

And the time travel stuff is very inconsistent.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say. R saga is the Black Moon arc. 


She DID do it in the R saga, Black Moon arc when Pluto died. She sent Pluto to the 21st century to be reborn so she could live with them all in the past and have a normal life. If she had sent her to the Silver Millennium she'd have just died again and that would be cruel, not to mention she was already alive in the past so that wouldn't work anyway. She didn't revive her right then and there because then she wouldn't have been able to live a normal life, thus the reason she sent Pluto to live a normal life and be with the rest of them back in the 21st century.


I don't understand what you mean about the time travel being inconsistent, what exactly do you find inconsistent about that? I know Naoko made a lot of inconsistencies but the time travel concept seemed alright to me. 


Diana would guard the gates while Pluto was away, and the duty was shared so I image others could also share the duty as well instead of just Pluto and Diana, which was nicer considering it wasn't such a burden anymore^^
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   6th July 2013, 1:02 am

nerf-of-nothing wrote:
 She DID do it in the R saga, Black Moon arc when Pluto died. She sent Pluto to the 21st century to be reborn so she could live with them all in the past and have a normal life.

She didin't do in the R saga, Black Moon arc when Pluto died - then she just said that Pluto will rest in Crystal Palace. Only in S, Infinity it is revealead that Pluto was sent back to past.


@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
You're missing the point. If they died in the future, it's the future that is in jeopardy and it wasn't just the cats, all the senshi and her father were all fading because the past was in trouble. the cats did not die and we covered that in this forum already.


It's not the future - Chibiusa talks about cats tragedy when she tell that she came to 20th century. She was talking about the occurences in future some time before it. And we see shocked Usagi who then realises the vision was not just illusion. Later IIRC the cats are never shown nor mentioned.


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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   6th July 2013, 5:21 am

You're taking it too literally, Pluto was dead, Serenity meant "rest" as in "rest in peace", just because we see Pluto alive in the S saga, does not mean that she didn't revive Pluto after she had died because that's why Pluto was alive in the 21st century to begin with, she can't rest if she's dead, unless we're talking about an "eternal" rest lol

And I dunno why you think the cats were killed, it makes no sense. Please post pictures and references why you think otherwise the way the first post on this thread was done showing the cats were an illusion. Everyone was revived at the end, just because they weren't shown, doesn't mean they're dead because they obviously exist in the future, as shown of them resting in the backset alive but unwell like the others during StarS when Chibiusa shared the illusionary vision that Usagai had (As I've said before, the senshi often had visions of things that never took place, or illusions, or premonitions, or could see what others were seeing despite not beings there)
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   6th July 2013, 6:27 am

I can't post anything as I have no scanner. As I said - the scene, when Chibiusa talks about her coming to 20th century, makes it sure it wasn't just an illusion.
@nerf-or-nothing wrote:
 Pluto was dead, Serenity meant "rest" as in "rest in peace",


I know - so why didn't she revived Pluto then?

@Ktenshi wrote:
In the manga, we do and it adds a level to her character that makes it more complex. Kids in her situtation could very well relate to her and she becomes something of an even -better- role model than the Anime version.


Firstly, Ami is almost 16 then in manga - they're already in high school. Also, the situation with her mother isn't totally resolved. She gets a powerup and stops worrying? I don't find it very relatable to kids who aren't senshi.
Ami in anime got 14 episodes and a special, each giving her a new piece of development. And she was the most popular character.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   6th July 2013, 7:32 am

She didn't revive Pluto right then and there probably because she just woke up from a coma and everyone just went through an epic battle, you have to look at the broader scheme of things.

I already posted pictures on the first page where it shows Luna and Artemis in the 30th century in a basket, they were huffing because the past was in jeopardy, the poof is on the first page of this forum, scanned pictures from the manga^^

16 to me is a kid, they are only in high school, I'm 27 and I'm STILL learning things now but when you are still in school, you're technically still a kid to someone of my age.

What do you mean worry? Worry about what? I forget where I had written that  what were we discussing exactly?

you kinda lost me on the Ami thing lol
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   6th July 2013, 10:35 am

Sorry, that quote about Ami wasn't yours - I corrected it.
The cats being in the future means nothing, as future can change.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   6th July 2013, 11:35 am

@HeartWarrior wrote:
Thank you for showing that the cats being killed were merely an illusion, thanks for sharing! Btw, by the time that Usagi would be 21/22-yrs-old Crystal Tokyo will take place? Isn't it thousands of years into the future?! I don't understand that quite so well though. Makes no sense to me.

I don't think anyone answered this, so I will. In the manga, Usagi ascends to the throne at 22 while being pregnant with ChibiUsa. This is the beginning of Crystal Tokyo. As Neo Queen Serenity, she uses the Ginzuishou to allow everyone on Earth to become immortal. When people are born, they grow up to their prime age and then stop the aging process. This is why Neo Queen Serenity is alive in the 30th Century. When we meet ChibiUsa, we come to find out that she is 901 years old. This is why she is so persistent on becoming a Lady because for some reason her aging process stopped way too early.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   6th July 2013, 12:35 pm

The whole immortality and 901 year old kid also bug me.

I looked up the earlier mentioned scene in Stars when Usagi loses her weapon - and she recreated it on her own after a few pages. And defeats with it all her friends, additionally filled with Galaxia power. In anime she looses fer sceptre for good and needs Chibi-chibi to support her. Usagi's being without weapon in anime is never meaningless.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th July 2013, 9:02 am

Quote :
 The cats being in the future means nothing, as future can change.


The fact that they were in the future means they DIDN'T die because the future HADN'T changed, if it had their bodies wouldn't be there. They would have disappeared like Chibiusa does when Mamoru dies. The future is saved, therefore Mamoru is alive and Chibiusa reappeared, that's how it works^^


When it comes to immortality, NO where does it say anything about immortality. They can still die, we see that all throughout the manga.


It's stated they have long life spans, and not everyone on earth has a long life span, and it's not mentioned anywhere that people stop aging, the SENSHI stop aging but it's never stated it will always remain that way.


Their lifestyle isn't all that different from lore about Elves and fairies. Longevity is very different from immortality.


I dunno what you mean about filled with Galaxia power... in the manga Galaxia was powerful but a lot of that had to do with Chaos backing her up after all Chaos kills Galaxia pretty easily. 


The reason Usagi recreates her staff is because she created it in the first place. It is an extension of her being.


Swordsman often call their swords an extension of their body, their arm and they wield it with precision this way.


The weapon was Usagi's power in the manga, she created it from her own power. Mars creates a bow and arrow out of fire, fire is her power it is an extension of herself, Mercury creates a harp of water, it is an extension of herself. When the fire is put out, she creates a new one, when the water is spilt, she creates a new one. For the manga, this is no different for Usagi's case because she does not have an element she uses a talisman to harness her power into a centralized way.


Anime Usagi is lost without her weapons, and Chibi-chibi turned into a sword but the sword was shattered. chibichibi is a starseed, she's technically an object and therefore can take on multiple forms. Starseed, butterfly, Little Girl that looks like Usagi (probably choose this disguise because the Light of Hope had found Usagi to be it's knew host and needed Usagi to accept her so this disguise worked well it's almost the same concept as the manga though totally differe. Take a disguise to get close to Usagi) and of course, the sword.


Anime Usagi didn't want to kill Galaxia but without a sword/ChibiChibi, without a scepter Usagi won that final battle with the glow of her Star seed, the Ginzuishou by seeing the real Galaxia trapped within and used her own hand to purify her. Which was a first despite it still being the crystal's abilities, it flowed from her chest to her hand which grasped Galaxia's and poof lol


In the manga, Usagi had to kill her friends, and she didn't use the scepter either but sacrificed herself by jumping into the cauldron to seal Chaos since she wasn't powerful enough to kill it, and jumping in should have killed her but she remained in a physical body instead of being stripped of her physical body and being just a starseed, the ginzuishou, and for her hard work Guardian Cosmos and the Cauldron granted her wish to let them all live together happily ever after.


Not she said everyone together to remain as they were. She didn't say Mina, Rei, Haruka, etc etc. She said everyone. If Luna and Artemis and Diana had been killed, they would have been there too. Usagi isn't cruel enough, nor are the others, to be smiling and happy and carefree having been bbought back to life just so they could have a funeral.


Naoko Takeuchi ended the manga on a happy note, just because we don't see them at the wedding does not mean they're dead, it just means Naoko didn't see it necessary to draw out the wedding scene, she also probably had a page limit^^
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th July 2013, 9:12 am

In the manga, Usagi had to kill her friends, and she didn't use the scepter either but sacrificed herself by jumping into the cauldron to seal Chaos since she wasn't powerful enough to kill it, and jumping in should have killed her but she remained in a physical body instead of being stripped of her physical body and being just a starseed, the ginzuishou, and for her hard work Guardian Cosmos and the Cauldron granted her wish to let them all live together happily ever after.



Actually she -was- stripped of her body and became nothing more than a starseed at that point.



-EDIT:


The Tier broke here:



She reassembles it here because of the belief that ChibiChibi and Chibimoon had in her:




The Cats are Alive and left with The tsukinos -here-:









So..yeah.. pretty much what Nerf said.


Last edited by Ktenshi on 9th July 2013, 9:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th July 2013, 9:18 am

Aaah see I got confused because of this

Spoiler:
 

When Guardian Cosmos says how she can keep her true shape^^

She she must have been ripped apart, but then revived or reassembled or something
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th July 2013, 9:28 am

It could be really that her  true form is her Starseed form. But to each other, they see their bodies/former selves while in the Cauldron.  They could, of course, easily be restored too.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   9th July 2013, 9:56 am

I think their true forms are their star seeds but I think that their star seeds also have physical human body form too, and I think it was that physical human body Cosmos was talking about^^

I like the head canon that their star seed is their true form because it's essentially their soul and I like to believe everyone has a soul even when the body dies and withers away, our souls still exist, I feel as if all star seeds are souls, but senshi crystals are a different kind of soul, just a theory though^^

All of Usagi's powers are based on the power of those that believe in her and their hope in her which is why she's called the Light of Hope, but Chibichibi and Chibiusa alone didn't assemble the scepter, Usagi did, their belief in her only strengthened her own powers as the hope always does^^
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   11th July 2013, 12:13 pm

The cats died after Usagi left them with Tsukinos - when she was on her way to Galaxia. If they were alive at the end, they would be shown or mentioned - another page wasn't necessary for that.

Usagi being able to recreate her weapon so easily in manga makes her too powerful. Anime better shows her struggles.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   11th July 2013, 12:47 pm

@Moonlight Lady wrote:
The cats died after Usagi left them with Tsukinos - when she was on her way to Galaxia. If they were alive at the end, they would be shown or mentioned - another page wasn't necessary for that.

Usagi being able to recreate her weapon so easily in manga makes her too powerful. Anime better shows her struggles.

Um. Prove it.

Prove when and where the cats died.

Cause, yeah, I'm not believing that theory without proof.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   11th July 2013, 1:19 pm

We've already given ample proof the cats did not die. 

you can not say just because they weren't shown at the wedding that is proof they died. That makes no sense.

It is fine if you want to believe that for fan purposes but please understand it is CANON that they did not die and it's kind of tiring to keep saying the same thing and keep posting the same proof just because you can't accept that.

In the anime and manga she's the same amount of powerful, the only difference is that Usagi in the manga will kill enemies which makes her more realistic verses the holy saint the anime made her where she doesn't kill anyone.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   12th July 2013, 1:31 pm

Usagi in manga is explicitly stated as the most powerful in the universe, so no, they are not equally powerful.
And it's not true that anime-Usagi never killed - though indeed she stopped when she matured. What do you find unrealistic about it?

Cats are killed by Lethe in act 48, in act 49 Chibiusa confirms it while meeting with Usagi. Scene from act 47, when cats are left with Ikuko is no proof.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   16th July 2013, 8:30 am

Usagi in manga is explicitly stated as the most powerful in the universe, so no, they are not equally powerful.
And it's not true that anime-Usagi never killed - though indeed she stopped when she matured. What do you find unrealistic about it?

Tell me what episode Usagi killed a person? She never kills anyone that was once human or had the capacity to feel, she even spared inhuman beings. In the manga she killed mortals and demons alike. In the anime she was a saint, in the manga, she was a warrior.  That is what is unrealistic becase manga-wise, she's a senshi, senshi meaning warrior/soldier while in the anime she is pretty much anything but despite the fact that she fights, in the anime her attacks are typically healing attacks and demons are essentially killed by her healing attacks.


Again I must say look at the front page of this thread. A swingset was an illusion. Luna and Artemis and Diana were in Ikuko's arms with worried looks and had damage done to their crescent moons. In the river, they are smiling and meowing like normal cats and their crescent moon marks are not damaged.


Chibiusa felt when Diana was attacked by Tin Nyanko, then the scene stopped and we're back to watching Usagi's struggles, and then it resume the scene in Crystal Tokyo, that IS proof.


Naoko ended the manga on a happy note, Usagi said EVERYONE to live again as they had before.


Naoko only showed Usagi and Mamoru and the senshi at the wedding, are we to assume since no one else was shown they are all dead too?


Naoko had a page limit, the wedding was the very last pages, she obviously wanted to show the senshi and Usagi and Mamoru the most since they are the main characters and she was already at her limit.


Anime and Manga are the same in the sense that Usagi was always left standing and battling and then winning at the end. Galaxia in the anime was said to be the strongest senshi, and even with the added power of Chaos within Galaxia, Usagi won therefore making HER the strongest but anime-wise she didn't really have the struggles she did in the manga, she didn't have to kill.


But this thread is about the manga not the anime since they are different versions and this was specifically made for the manga.


Luna, Artemis and Diana, as I reread the manga again, have starseeds Kakyuu says are similar to senshi crystals.


Chibiusa keeps asking if the future is being destroyed and what not. Since everyone is a live and well, obviously the timeline has been saved and everything happened and will happen again. Diana, Luna and Artemis play important roles in the past and the future. When Eternal Sailor Moon saved everyone (Which the manga literally states her power as being the ability to lose EVERYONE and EVERYTHING so that she can save EVERYONE and everything) then the future has gone back to being the way it was. 


This is what we know happens after the wedding...


They have Chibiusa, 
they take the throne, 
Death phantom kills people, queen banishes him,
dark moon attacks, 
Chibiusa goes to the past, 
Everyone goes to the future and meets Diana and realize Chibiusa is the daughter,
Chibiusa becomes dark lady,
Pluto leaves the gates and DIANA watches the gates while she is away, 
Chibiusa watches Pluto die and becomes Sailor Chibi Moon,
Chibiusa goes back to the past for training,
blah blah
Galaxia fight,
Chaos fight,
Everone's saved,
Mamoru and Usagi get married,
They have Chibiusa
blah blah
Chibiusa returns to Crystal Tokyo after she tells USagi shell see her in the future with the astroids,
blah blah - we can assume what we want like Chibiusa becoming queen,
blah blah Sailor Chaos attacks,
Sailor Cosmos goes back to her past because she regret not killing Chaos before he became Sailor Chaos,
Sailor Cosmos returns to her time after being reminded of who she is and of hope,


Time goes full circle. Luna and Artemis are in Crystal Tokyo, Diana is in crystal tokyo.


If Chaos WON that battle, I'd say yeah, futures gone but Chaos LOST and so the timestream went back to normal, Sailor Moon saved everyone, as stated, and thus a happy ending.


For fan works it's great to assume otherwise but canon, it was obviously a happy ending and time obviously goes in a full circle because if Luna and Artemis were killed, Diana wouldn't be born and if Diana wouldn't be born than she wouldn't encourage Pluto to leave the gates and then the crystals would join in the R saga and everything would be dead and gone and small lady would never become Sailor Chibimoon.


So yeah, the cats are obviously alive or it wouldn't have been a happy ending because everything would have changed.


That's how time works. A moment one might think insignificant ends up being VERY significant and since Pluto was at the wedding, she obviously still went through with that significant moment because if it weren't for Diana she wouldn't have left the gates.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   17th July 2013, 12:27 pm

Quote :
 Tell me what episode Usagi killed a person?
 
She killed Kunzite, Beryl, Esmeralde and Wiseman. And kinda one could argue for Villuy.
I actually loved that in most cases she opted for healing, instead of being remorseless killer.
 
Quote :
Chibiusa felt when Diana was attacked by Tin Nyanko
 
She didn't - Tin Nyanko’s attack happened a full volume before. Chibiusa feels Diana’s death on the very next page to the Lethe’s attack.
 
Quote :
Naoko ended the manga on a happy note, Usagi said EVERYONE to live again as they had before.
 
Usagi means the by everybody the people who are with her at the moment.
 
Quote :

Naoko had a page limit
 
 How do you  now that?

Cats could be with group, they even didn’t need another page, if they were to be alive.


Quote :

Usagi won therefore making HER the strongest but anime-wise she didn't really have the struggles she did in the manga, she didn't have to kill.


You didn’t get the anime ending – Usagi believed there is still good in Galaxia and this faith let her free. Usagi rejects fight and streght and power, chooosing love.


Usagi had little struggles in manga, everything came much easier for her.



Quote :
time obviously goes in a full circle


If the time were in circle, nobody we saw in 30th century would ever be in any danger, so it can’t be  the case. The future is clearly prone to changes.

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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   18th July 2013, 4:23 pm

You kinda skipped the majority of what I had written and you got some of the things wrong, for instance the time going in full circle. I'll draw you a map later since you didn't get it and of course the dangers will come since both Neo Queen Serenity and Cosmos alike have shown they had forgotten what it was like as Usagi so after living for hundreds of years those memories obviously fade and it's not like knowing the Death Phantom would have changed Serenity's decisions, she couldn't kill him which is why she was weak.

The fact that you think anime Usagi had more struggles is really opinion because many others think she had it easy in the anime so that's not something that can logically be debated since it's an opinion and not a fact. Although... lol.

Please include all the other reasons in my last statement that proved they are alive. If you hand pick certain things and ignore the rest it only proves that they are alive because I've shown more proof of canon and you kind keep saying the same things with no evidence to support your headcanon.
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PostSubject: Re: Manga StarS   18th July 2013, 5:10 pm

I feel like this discussion is going in circles >.<
but there's one thing I'd like to reply to.

Quote :
You didn't get the anime ending – Usagi believed there is still good in Galaxia and this faith let her free. Usagi rejects fight and strength and power, choosing love.

Usagi had little struggles in manga, everything came much easier for her.

That's the problem with the anime, they wanted to redeem half the villains in the show. Only Wiseman and Beryl received what they deserved. There are times when you can't save people with the "power of love". Seriously, that's what makes manga Usagi more realistic to me.
I honestly don't like how they portrayed Galaxia, because she really didn't have any redeemable qualities, and yet she got free after all that murdering. And yes, I'm aware it's not the same as in the Manga, which bothers me even more. Anime Galaxia is even flatter than her manga counterpart, to say the least.

And why do you say that everything came much easier for Usagi in the manga? Examples please ^^
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